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Williams: Drivers, management and other folks at Grove 2019


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#3651 realracer200

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Posted 10 August 2019 - 20:56

0.3s, AFTER you've skewed the whole thing to take out the laps that don't prove your point. 0.3s AVERAGE over the whole race is still a clear beating.

 

Usually drivers save their engines when they have nothing more to race for, the engines have to last many races I'm sure you know that. Yes 0.3s is still clear beating but it doesn't mean he's the worst driver in F1 as some of you are trying to make it look. There are others in much better cars doing worse compared to their team mates.


Edited by realracer200, 11 August 2019 - 02:47.


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#3652 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 10 August 2019 - 22:57

Usually drivers save their engines when they don't have nothing more to race for, the engines have to last many races I'm sure you know that. Yes 0.3s is still clear beating but it doesn't mean he's the worst driver in F1 as some of you are trying to make it look. There are others in much better cars doing worse compared to their team mates.


Amen

Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 10 August 2019 - 22:58.


#3653 Tsarwash

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 10:40

They have power steering so he could dial it in to compensate a bit.. doubt it’s a arm strength issue.. that said his fans refuse to accept that is useless but they’ll tell us it’s a non issue.. he’s done rally etc.

So if it’s not his arm, if it’s not his brain rewiring post injury...if it’s not the lose of sensation post trauma, then what is it .

Sad is what it is.

We don't know what the problem is, but we know there is a problem. I suspect that he is struggling to get the tyres to work for him, but again this is just speculation. 



#3654 Tsarwash

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 10:41

Usually drivers save their engines when they have nothing more to race for, the engines have to last many races I'm sure you know that. Yes 0.3s is still clear beating but it doesn't mean he's the worst driver in F1 as some of you are trying to make it look. There are others in much better cars doing worse compared to their team mates.

There is just Gasly and Robert doing this badly this year. Nobody else is even close. 



#3655 miwost

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 11:12

We don't know what the problem is, but we know there is a problem. I suspect that he is struggling to get the tyres to work for him, but again this is just speculation.


I truly doubt that there is a single reason for it. Starting from a too fragile car and ending with his race engineer being an amateur.

#3656 WilliamsF1Fan

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 11:39

I truly doubt that there is a single reason for it. Starting from a too fragile car and ending with his race engineer being an amateur.

 

Why is his engineer an amateur?  I find it incredibly insulting to a person who has worked hard in their life to get into F1 that you would call them amateur.  Is it because Kubica is slow?  Because Kubica can't get the tyres working?  I am tired of the excuses being bandied about on here.  



#3657 AndyPerry

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 11:44

Why is his engineer an amateur? I find it incredibly insulting to a person who has worked hard in their life to get into F1 that you would call them amateur. Is it because Kubica is slow? Because Kubica can't get the tyres working? I am tired of the excuses being bandied about on here.


It's because their brains can not accept the fact that the reason Kubica is dog slow is, in fact, Kubica. He can not be the reason, hence everything else must be the reason. Enter the incompetent engineer.

Edited by AndyPerry, 11 August 2019 - 11:45.


#3658 Clatter

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 12:57

I truly doubt that there is a single reason for it. Starting from a too fragile car and ending with his race engineer being an amateur.

Or is it a talented and experienced race engineer shackled with an amateur driver?

#3659 miwost

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 13:37

Why is his engineer an amateur? I find it incredibly insulting to a person who has worked hard in their life to get into F1 that you would call them amateur. Is it because Kubica is slow? Because Kubica can't get the tyres working? I am tired of the excuses being bandied about on here.


I don't even want to list all the errors from the racing strategy that Williams has taken towards Robert - just to mention the car being placed at pitlane too early. But sure, its only Robert being slow. if someone doesn't notice it, his obviously not following the race exactly enough. I just hope that the coincidence of names is accidental;)

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#3660 Rodaknee

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 15:19

...the car being placed at pitlane too early...

 

Might have been best for everyone if the car had remained in the shed.



#3661 YoungGun

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 17:29

It's because their brains can not accept the fact that the reason Kubica is dog slow is, in fact, Kubica. He can not be the reason, hence everything else must be the reason. Enter the incompetent engineer.

 

That never crossed my mind, but Russel is showing promise like Bottas for example.



#3662 Nathan

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 17:53

I truly doubt that there is a single reason for it. Starting from a too fragile car and ending with his race engineer being an amateur.

 

You're full of $#!^.   Sirotkin must be extra special then??? Kubica also has Andrew Murdoch who engineered Massa for a number of years.



#3663 pdac

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 18:04

I don't even want to list all the errors from the racing strategy that Williams has taken towards Robert - just to mention the car being placed at pitlane too early. But sure, its only Robert being slow. if someone doesn't notice it, his obviously not following the race exactly enough. I just hope that the coincidence of names is accidental;)

 

Even if they are making poor strategy calls how does that explain the lap times?

 

Robert is slow

George is not so slow

 

Bits fall of Roberts car

Bits do not fall of Georges car

 

Either the cars are completely different or you must start to look at the person driving them.


Edited by pdac, 11 August 2019 - 18:07.


#3664 Pimpwerx

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 18:23

I wonder if the people that continue to make excuses for Kubica were fans of the Williams team before he joined. I ask, because the continued attempts to tear down everyone and everything around him at the team is at odds with what long-time fans and non-fans (like myself) understand about the team. Some of us who have been critical of the team's decline in recent history, have never once thought to blame the pit crews, or the team's ability to assemble a car. It's the ability to design a competitive car that I've had issues with. The fact that one specific driver is struggling does not mean the team has lost its rudder in the crew department. It would be like Gasly fans blaming the Red Bull team for incompetence, eventhough we all know that they've been a consistent organization throughout their somewhat brief history. Williams has a much longer track record of consistency to draw from, so Occum's Razor says that the disparagement of the crews' efforts is what is wrong here.

 

Is this lunacy going to continue for the entire season? Why hasn't poor Pierre been afforded this sort of delusional excuse-making to explain the one-sided drubbing that he's receiving from his teammate? This has to be annoying to long-term Williams fans. More annoying than the continued struggles of the car. Robet's existence with the team will be a momentary blip on the radar, while the sluggish performance of the actual racing package will have been a lasting blight on their otherwise storied history.



#3665 hansmann

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 20:00

I don't even want to list all the errors from the racing strategy that Williams has taken towards Robert - just to mention the car being placed at pitlane too early. But sure, its only Robert being slow. if someone doesn't notice it, his obviously not following the race exactly enough. I just hope that the coincidence of names is accidental;)

 

It almost sounds as if you were suggesting Paul Williams is sabotaging Polish Senna's efforts .

And because of the engineer's name the entire team of the same name is in on that sinistre plot .

 

Well, you will be relieved to hear that there is no conspiracy , just a pay driver being a little out of his depth .



#3666 hansmann

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 20:12

I wonder if the people that continue to make excuses for Kubica were fans of the Williams team before he joined. I ask, because the continued attempts to tear down everyone and everything around him at the team is at odds with what long-time fans and non-fans (like myself) understand about the team. Some of us who have been critical of the team's decline in recent history, have never once thought to blame the pit crews, or the team's ability to assemble a car. It's the ability to design a competitive car that I've had issues with. The fact that one specific driver is struggling does not mean the team has lost its rudder in the crew department. It would be like Gasly fans blaming the Red Bull team for incompetence, eventhough we all know that they've been a consistent organization throughout their somewhat brief history. Williams has a much longer track record of consistency to draw from, so Occum's Razor says that the disparagement of the crews' efforts is what is wrong here.

 

Is this lunacy going to continue for the entire season? Why hasn't poor Pierre been afforded this sort of delusional excuse-making to explain the one-sided drubbing that he's receiving from his teammate? This has to be annoying to long-term Williams fans. More annoying than the continued struggles of the car. Robet's existence with the team will be a momentary blip on the radar, while the sluggish performance of the actual racing package will have been a lasting blight on their otherwise storied history.

 

I believe it's strictly related to Kubica , not to Williams, maybe not even F1 .

It's gotten much better recently, the man has stepped in a few times, and of course there are the facts .

But as long as Kubica is in F1 , the irrational fan behaviour is likely to continue , I think .

 

Kimi fans used to be like that, but at least that was about Kimi , who is - well, Kimi .  ;)


Edited by hansmann, 11 August 2019 - 20:13.


#3667 Paco

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 20:51

We don't know what the problem is, but we know there is a problem. I suspect that he is struggling to get the tyres to work for him, but again this is just speculation.


That’s not a question or speculation but a fact. He’s has no feel for a modern day F1 car how they work the tires.

#3668 Paco

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 20:52

I truly doubt that there is a single reason for it. Starting from a too fragile car and ending with his race engineer being an amateur.


So everyone else but him...

#3669 Paco

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 20:54

I don't even want to list all the errors from the racing strategy that Williams has taken towards Robert - just to mention the car being placed at pitlane too early. But sure, its only Robert being slow. if someone doesn't notice it, his obviously not following the race exactly enough. I just hope that the coincidence of names is accidental;)


Being rubbish on your tires can cause lots of headaches for the team as he burns through them so fast they have to do atypical calls to offset his driving... every consider the other side of the equation... where he is causing his own pain by ruining his tires after a handful of laps.

#3670 Paco

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 20:57

I wonder if the people that continue to make excuses for Kubica were fans of the Williams team before he joined. I ask, because the continued attempts to tear down everyone and everything around him at the team is at odds with what long-time fans and non-fans (like myself) understand about the team. Some of us who have been critical of the team's decline in recent history, have never once thought to blame the pit crews, or the team's ability to assemble a car. It's the ability to design a competitive car that I've had issues with. The fact that one specific driver is struggling does not mean the team has lost its rudder in the crew department. It would be like Gasly fans blaming the Red Bull team for incompetence, eventhough we all know that they've been a consistent organization throughout their somewhat brief history. Williams has a much longer track record of consistency to draw from, so Occum's Razor says that the disparagement of the crews' efforts is what is wrong here.

Is this lunacy going to continue for the entire season? Why hasn't poor Pierre been afforded this sort of delusional excuse-making to explain the one-sided drubbing that he's receiving from his teammate? This has to be annoying to long-term Williams fans. More annoying than the continued struggles of the car. Robet's existence with the team will be a momentary blip on the radar, while the sluggish performance of the actual racing package will have been a lasting blight on their otherwise storied history.

Williams need to pull a RB like I’ve said for a long time and get a better driver there now and prove it’s not the 2nd car but driver and move the team forward . Doubt any driver would be this rubbish. Then all the Kubica fans can wake up and smell the coffee. However, I just don’t see Claire having the courage to do that and put Ocon in and make her team better at the risk of embarrassing Kubica.

Edited by Paco, 13 August 2019 - 01:05.


#3671 Rodaknee

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 00:46

 

“The cars are identical”: Williams suspects tyres explain Kubica’s deficit to Russell

 

Williams seem to be getting pissed off with Kubica's failure to get the most out of their car.

 

https://www.racefans...cit-to-russell/



#3672 Paco

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 01:30

Williams seem to be getting pissed off with Kubica's failure to get the most out of their car.

https://www.racefans...cit-to-russell/


But Claire won’t be that harsh and do what needs to be done now.. not in 3 months...

#3673 steeng

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 04:04

Williams seem to be getting pissed off with Kubica's failure to get the most out of their car.

 

https://www.racefans...cit-to-russell/

Williams should have long ago been tired of Kubica's constant negative attitude towards the team.  Kubica's lastest nonsense about having 'amatuer engineers" should be enough for Williams to finally show him the door.


Edited by steeng, 13 August 2019 - 04:04.


#3674 sgtkate

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 09:12

Usually drivers save their engines when they have nothing more to race for, the engines have to last many races I'm sure you know that. Yes 0.3s is still clear beating but it doesn't mean he's the worst driver in F1 as some of you are trying to make it look. There are others in much better cars doing worse compared to their team mates.

Then prove it. There is data available for every lap by every driver. You can produce the BoP charts to see the average gap between drivers in the same team. I'd suspect the only one who comes even close to an average gap (removing outliers as has been done here) would be Gasly and Max and Gasly has just basically been sacked...

 

My wife is Polish, trust me when I say I wanted Kubica to come back and do well, I do, I really do, I still hope he can flick a switch and sort himself out but at the moment it's a real shame and the people that are trying to twist every little thing to pretend he's good enough are simply in denial.


Edited by sgtkate, 13 August 2019 - 09:13.


#3675 chris72

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 09:43

Then prove it. There is data available for every lap by every driver. You can produce the BoP charts to see the average gap between drivers in the same team. I'd suspect the only one who comes even close to an average gap (removing outliers as has been done here) would be Gasly and Max and Gasly has just basically been sacked...

And let's not forget that Gasly was driving against one of the fastest drivers on the grid who is on his 5th season in F1. Kubica is driving against a rookie driving his very first races in F1.



#3676 Rodaknee

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 11:15

Robert Kubica is at it again - blaming the car for his problems.

 

I believe he's building the story to take home to Mummy.

"It wasn't me, Williams gave me a rubbish car, it only got worse, etc, etc"

It's a thread that goes back to the first couple of races, when it was obvious to all he wasn't going to do well.  His fans might buy it, most don't.

 

 

https://www.autospor...-consistent-car



#3677 pdac

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 11:18

Williams seem to be getting pissed off with Kubica's failure to get the most out of their car.

 

https://www.racefans...cit-to-russell/

 

Did I miss something there? I cannot see any quotes in that article that suggest that Williams might be getting pissed off with Kubica.



#3678 pdac

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 11:27

Robert Kubica is at it again - blaming the car for his problems.

 

I believe he's building the story to take home to Mummy.

"It wasn't me, Williams gave me a rubbish car, it only got worse, etc, etc"

It's a thread that goes back to the first couple of races, when it was obvious to all he wasn't going to do well.  His fans might buy it, most don't.

 

 

https://www.autospor...-consistent-car

 

To be fair, it's possible he could be including himself in the "inconsistencies" that they need to "get on top of". But I suspect you are right - he is talking about the car and, if so, he's missed one of the key components that need to be looked at.



#3679 Paco

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 13:48

Thankfully Russell has been a bright light at Williams or else this crap show of Kubica and Claire putting up with it would have a complete gong show. They just seem stuck in making the tough calls to move forward. Decisions today, now could have a big impact on how things next year and they just don’t seem to care of putting the team 1st.. that’s what’s missing from the Frank Patrick driver mentality.

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#3680 Bleu

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 14:19

I recall that Kubica was very vocal in his BMW and Renault days too when car wasn't to his liking. Of course generally cars were much better that current Williams but there were some poor showings by the teams.



#3681 shurajan

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 15:59

Thankfully Russell has been a bright light at Williams or else this crap show of Kubica and Claire putting up with it would have a complete gong show. They just seem stuck in making the tough calls to move forward. Decisions today, now could have a big impact on how things next year and they just don’t seem to care of putting the team 1st.. that’s what’s missing from the Frank Patrick driver mentality.


We don’t know how bright George is. Wiping floor with RK was expected(at least by some ppl) long before season. George has no measure right now.

#3682 Paco

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 20:14

I recall that Kubica was very vocal in his BMW and Renault days too when car wasn't to his liking. Of course generally cars were much better that current Williams but there were some poor showings by the teams.


Yup, always someone and always consider complaining. I’m sure we will here this that this a problem but not his seat in the car.

#3683 Marklar

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 11:04

And let's not forget that Gasly was driving against one of the fastest drivers on the grid who is on his 5th season in F1. Kubica is driving against a rookie driving his very first races in F1.

That one depends on how good Russell already is though. He is certainly not on that level yet, but might already be a very capable driver. OTOH Gasly has less excuses than Kubica in terms of his own performances imo.

#3684 amardeep

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 11:16

Seems like Kubica is bringing something valuable to the team :
 

But team boss Claire Williams says she is happy with Kubica.

"We needed a driver like Robert with his engineering and technical intelligence," she said.

 

https://www.grandpri...ing-kubica.html


Edited by amardeep, 15 August 2019 - 11:17.


#3685 PayasYouRace

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 11:35

Which sounds like they’d have had him as a test driver in the old days.

#3686 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 14:03

While Norris is holding own against Sainz, Russell based on F2 performances and Mercedes support might be expected to be better still. The guy they both beat in F2 is on his way to RBR now.
It's very possible Russell is at Max/Leclerc level but accustoming himself quicker to the Williams than LEC is to the Ferrari. You'd expect LEC to whip Raikkonen, so why not RUS on KUB? ROS did it to Schumi. Age sadly is a factor in speed. With Russell not missing too many marks, little to do for Kubica to close the gap on experience. 
I hope Russell is just that good and Kubica still a bit rusty but loosening up and that they both move up in F1. Ideally with Williams as a team.



#3687 pdac

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 14:08

Seems like Kubica is bringing something valuable to the team :
 

https://www.grandpri...ing-kubica.html

 

 

Oh come on. Ask any team about whether they are interested in drivers and they will almost never rule a driver out. Why would they? But that's not real interest, that's just playing the game. To a team in mid season, every one of their drivers is doing fine and any driver on the market is of interest. These people do not answer questions, they just spout the politically correct message for their team.

 

Also, I recognise those quotes from Claire as something she said a good few races back (I'm not going to bother to try to find out where)


Edited by pdac, 15 August 2019 - 14:11.


#3688 Rodaknee

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 15:07

Seems like Kubica is bringing something valuable to the team :
 

https://www.grandpri...ing-kubica.html

 

Claire isn't going to say "Kubica brings £1m to every race, once that's gone, he's toast".

She isn't Marko.

 

Yet.



#3689 hansmann

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 18:25

I hope Russell is just that good and Kubica still a bit rusty but loosening up and that they both move up in F1. Ideally with Williams as a team.

 

Well, I've been wrong when I was claiming Kubica will never get an F1 drive again ... ;)

Obviously he shouldn't have, but such is the power of sponsorship money .

 

But at this point, I'm pretty certain Kubica is only moving in one direction in F1 - out .



#3690 Clatter

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 23:29

Well, I've been wrong when I was claiming Kubica will never get an F1 drive again ... ;)
Obviously he shouldn't have, but such is the power of sponsorship money .

But at this point, I'm pretty certain Kubica is only moving in one direction in F1 - out .

Unless his pockets are deeper than anyone else's.

#3691 Rodaknee

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 00:13

Unless his pockets are deeper than anyone else's.

 

Williams will have a problem if Kubica's sponsor comes up with another £20m at the end of the year, knowing full well that should they have made major improvements to the car, he would be wasted in it.  Even if the car is still rubbish, I don't believe they need a repeat of his constant blaming of everyone and everything except himself.



#3692 miwost

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 08:18

The amount of acid spread here towards Robert is just sad. Its really easy to draw times based only conclusion knowing nothing whats going on inside the team and taking no consideration regarding how Williams has started the season. Have some respect for a guy and Please consider that maybe all his „excuses” are just saying about things the way they are. How about that?

#3693 WilliamsF1Fan

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 08:56

The amount of acid spread here towards Robert is just sad. Its really easy to draw times based only conclusion knowing nothing whats going on inside the team and taking no consideration regarding how Williams has started the season. Have some respect for a guy and Please consider that maybe all his „excuses” are just saying about things the way they are. How about that?

 

It works both ways miwost.  You want people to lay off Kubica, but then you and some other of his fans will lay all the blame at Williams' door.  This is a thread where there will be Williams fans and they get fed up seeing so much blame thrown at the team, comments from people such as yourself saying the engineers are amateur.  Show some respect to the team and maybe some (not all) will show a bit of respect back.  Kubica's story is amazing but his pace at times is slow relative to his team mate and the excuses given out on here by his fans are what riles people.  



#3694 miwost

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 09:46

It works both ways miwost. You want people to lay off Kubica, but then you and some other of his fans will lay all the blame at Williams' door. This is a thread where there will be Williams fans and they get fed up seeing so much blame thrown at the team, comments from people such as yourself saying the engineers are amateur. Show some respect to the team and maybe some (not all) will show a bit of respect back. Kubica's story is amazing but his pace at times is slow relative to his team mate and the excuses given out on here by his fans are what riles people.


I have plenty of respect, specially for George as I see him as a great driver. As for "amateur" engineer, sure, i agree this words are strong, but this is just insane to place a car to early at the pit exit, it shows the lack of basic regulations knowledge, and for me is completely amateur (and there were more bad decisions toward Robert - e.g. not pit entry in Monaco under safety car). These are the things you do not acknowledge and see only robert/george gap. And now this tyre management case, saying that Robert cannot understand them, put in right temperature window. Unbelieveable. Driver who is asked to drive by Pirelli itself in tyres testing is being described as a man who cannot manage tyres..

#3695 WilliamsF1Fan

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 09:48

I have plenty of respect, specially for George as I see him as a great driver. As for "amateur" engineer, sure, i agree this words are strong, but this is just insane to place a car to early at the pit exit, it shows the lack of basic regulations knowledge, and for me is completely amateur (and there were more bad decisions toward Robert - e.g. not pit entry in Monaco under safety car). These are the things you do not acknowledge and see only robert/george gap. And now this tyre management case, saying that Robert cannot understand them, put in right temperature window. Unbelieveable. Driver who is asked to drive by Pirelli itself in tyres testing is being described as a man who cannot manage tyres..

 

You really just proved my point.



#3696 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 10:12

You really just proved my point.


The only point in this thread is Kubica's.






From Germany. 🤣

#3697 WilliamsF1Fan

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 10:16

The only point in this thread is Kubica's.






From Germany.

 

:rotfl:



#3698 Clatter

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 10:59

I have plenty of respect, specially for George as I see him as a great driver. As for "amateur" engineer, sure, i agree this words are strong, but this is just insane to place a car to early at the pit exit, it shows the lack of basic regulations knowledge, and for me is completely amateur (and there were more bad decisions toward Robert - e.g. not pit entry in Monaco under safety car). These are the things you do not acknowledge and see only robert/george gap. And now this tyre management case, saying that Robert cannot understand them, put in right temperature window. Unbelieveable. Driver who is asked to drive by Pirelli itself in tyres testing is being described as a man who cannot manage tyres..

When did Pirelli specifically ask for Kubica to test their tyres?

#3699 steeng

steeng
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Posted 17 August 2019 - 18:39

I have plenty of respect, specially for George as I see him as a great driver. As for "amateur" engineer, sure, i agree this words are strong, but this is just insane to place a car to early at the pit exit, it shows the lack of basic regulations knowledge, and for me is completely amateur (and there were more bad decisions toward Robert - e.g. not pit entry in Monaco under safety car). These are the things you do not acknowledge and see only robert/george gap. And now this tyre management case, saying that Robert cannot understand them, put in right temperature window. Unbelieveable. Driver who is asked to drive by Pirelli itself in tyres testing is being described as a man who cannot manage tyres..

Unfortunately, the facts seem to show that the 2019 Kubica can't manage tires.  I think he just doesn't have the 'feel" for the car anymore.  Either due to his long layoff or his disability.  Wasn't Petrov even matching Kubica at times during his last year at Renault?



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#3700 PayasYouRace

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 18:44

Far too much time has passed since Kubica’s first stint in F1 to draw any sort of meaningful conclusion from it. We might as well consider them two different drivers. Very few drivers have managed to take even a short break from F1 and come back anywhere near as good as when they left. The lasting effect of his injury is just going to add to that difference.

Robert needs to be evaluated on how he’s doing now. Sadly, it’s not great.