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Williams: Drivers, management and other folks at Grove 2019


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#351 WilliamsF1Fan

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 21:19

Did Frank design any of their cars?

 

It seems Claire designs the cars, orders the parts, builds the cars and in her spare time even cleans the toilets.  No wonder she couldn't get the car put together in time.  Who knows what the other 700+ people do.  



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#352 tghik

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 22:10

Because they like the money?

Because there are no other F1 or equivalent openings available?

Because they want to make a name by turning round the fortunes of a hostoric team?

Because they relish the challenge?

It's all true, but quitting your job in order to risk it with a team that is known to have financial problems ? Let's not forget we are talking top designers here and these guys are already employed. Claire must be creative at this point, not only that but do her due diligence. She can't afford hiring another Paddy.



#353 RacingGreen

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 22:50

Why would any key techical figure join Williams today? At the moment every other team is on sound financial footing.

 

Particularly when you consider that Jody Egginton is still officially only the Deputy Technical Director at Scuderia Toro Rosso following James Key moving to McLaren (where he starts officially tomorrow.) That must mean there is at least one other senior technical role up for grabs at the moment that any potential new Williams Technical Director would be considering instead.



#354 DeKnyff

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 23:04

It seems Claire designs the cars, orders the parts, builds the cars and in her spare time even cleans the toilets.  No wonder she couldn't get the car put together in time.  Who knows what the other 700+ people do.  

Nope, but she is (along with Sir Frank) the team principal. Therefore, she is responsible for the design department, the build department and even the cleanness of the toilets. That she doesn´t do it doesn't mean she isn't responsible for it. Responsibility is what being a boss is all about. And I she doesn't feel able to address the team's obvious problems, the only sensible thing to do is to resign.



#355 StanBarrett2

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 23:05

It seems Claire designs the cars, orders the parts, builds the cars and in her spare time even cleans the toilets.  No wonder she couldn't get the car put together in time.  Who knows what the other 700+ people do.  

Doesn't she do the cucumber sandwiches and the tea ?  pfff



#356 StanBarrett2

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 23:07

It's all true, but quitting your job in order to risk it with a team that is known to have financial problems ? Let's not forget we are talking top designers here and these guys are already employed. Claire must be creative at this point, not only that but do her due diligence. She can't afford hiring another Paddy.

I still suggest any man considering to apply to due dilligence INTO Williams before considering the dotted line



#357 Paco

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 23:18

I still suggest any man considering to apply to due dilligence INTO Williams before considering the dotted line

 

 

IF.. and that is a decently big IF the role is even available, pending any concrete evidence Paddy has in fact been fired vs. a step a side to determine what is actually the reason for this season poor car...

 

IT IS STILL a DREAM job for almost any engineer, irregardless of the troubles facing Williams.  Sure ,they won't come in and get top dollar but the experience for working at a true F1 team (unlike HAAS etc that parcel everything out) is an unimagineable opportunity and we would be a huge line on your resume.  Especially, if 2021 takes things away from all this buying off the shelf from a major manufacturer.



#358 NikL

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 00:19

Anyone seen the reviews on Glassdoor? Admittedly the following could be said about a lot of companies but what I have highlighted in bold we have seen or heard first hand:

https://www.glassdoo...iews-E38742.htm

 

High workload, and at times, a little chaotic when meeting tight timelines. :well: 

Long hours, stressful, poor management, high staff turn over, poor teamwork

Poor pay, very poor management, no opportunity for progression.

Family run company stuck in their ways with no change being implemented


Edited by NikL, 24 March 2019 - 00:22.


#359 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 01:23

Did Frank design any of their cars?


He had Head to do it for him, and Newey. Since Claire does not need tech director anymore - who is responsible for designing the car as we speak?

Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 24 March 2019 - 01:27.


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#360 Clatter

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 09:13

He had Head to do it for him, and Newey. Since Claire does not need tech director anymore - who is responsible for designing the car as we speak?

You seem to think that there is just one person involved in the process, but there is a whole team that design the cars, not just one person.

#361 PayasYouRace

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 09:17

Well there was pretty much just one person back in 1977, but it’s not like that now obviously.

#362 djparky

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 10:21

Suspect there are a multitude of problems, trying to compete with a quarter of the money of the bigger teams and the business/ operating model of the team not changing- the F1 landscape is very different to 1997- back then independent teams with factory deals with other sponsorship was the way to go.

Now it's the big manufacturer teams, hugely expensive cars, B teams and the time of the family owned independent team have passed- unless the manufacturers walk away or the rules fundamentally change.

Unfortunately for Williams they are not one or the other, its astonishing that a back of the grid team is spending $100m a year.

#363 Pete_f1

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 12:30

Because they relish the challenge?


As long as Williams is willing to make any changes required to allow them to do what is nessesery to bring about a favourable outcome for the team in terms of performance.

#364 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 12:37

You seem to think that there is just one person involved in the process, but there is a whole team that design the cars, not just one person.


Thank you Mr Obvious. I happened to be a technical person (software developer) who knows value of technical lead. And I know when PMs start thinking they are so big and can lead a team of devs without lead technical person it goes to ****. But anyway I am sure you know better then me.

Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 24 March 2019 - 12:37.


#365 tghik

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 13:48

Thank you Mr Obvious. I happened to be a technical person (software developer) who knows value of technical lead. And I know when PMs start thinking they are so big and can lead a team of devs without lead technical person it goes to ****. But anyway I am sure you know better then me.

yep it happens a lot in the design departments. The problem here is different. The understanding of each block and then their interdependence is crucial in F1. It's the task of the chief designer to choose the overall direction, like for instance the geometry of the suspension which then will have direct impact on the aero. Paddy is an electronic designer, so as such he is also a programmer, makes him suitable to overlook both departments, but he is world apart from the mechanical and aero design. There was a time where computers were not used in F1, Paddy being one of the first to use electronics, helped him make the name for himself. As the computers became a regular feature, and that more performance is to be gained from mechanical/aero side, Paddy stands on a weaker leg.

 

Additional question, Paddy was the TD, there is also the position of the chief designer? Without knowing the specifics, who controlled whom at Williams, or in parallel, I would lay the blame on both of them.


Edited by tghik, 24 March 2019 - 13:49.


#366 pdac

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 15:15

Thank you Mr Obvious. I happened to be a technical person (software developer) who knows value of technical lead. And I know when PMs start thinking they are so big and can lead a team of devs without lead technical person it goes to ****. But anyway I am sure you know better then me.

 

 

And to balance that, I too am and have been a senior software developer for many years. I've been in teams of people with no real hands-on leader who have managed to produce market-leading commercial software and have suffered when a technical lead was brought in because someone decided that there needed to be a single person in overall charge and they needed someone with proven industry experience in such a role.



#367 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 15:26

Cool.

Claire have good previous experience of running F1 team, she was in charge of marketing before right?

Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 24 March 2019 - 15:27.


#368 StanBarrett2

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 15:50

Paddy was the TD, there is also the position of the chief designer? Without knowing the specifics, who controlled whom at Williams, or in parallel, I would lay the blame on both of them.

Still Claire's fault for not deciding who hat final say, and Paddy's weak stance for not stomping his authority.

 

YOU ARE THE BOSS..or fack it YOU AIN'T



#369 Paco

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 16:47

Watching the Netflix series, wow watching Williams from the garage is painful.  She cried for the poor qualifying in Monaco.. seriously.. The general mood portrayed (however the creative director wanted to spin it) was very Stroll's Money and influence vs a lost team - so easy to see how the 2 together made things worse.  Also, she said their budget is around 150m wow, talk about wasted money after waste money somewhere.  I was also very surprised at Paddy's team meeting very early in 2018.. were slow.  Yeah.. no ===== sherlock.

 

How can a team with 150m not be able to pay suppliers.. where in the world are they spending their money.. not on drivers as their all pay ones for a while now.  What are all their staff doing if they are not building a car on time or able to pay probably the simpliest of costs if their budget is 150m...

 

I don't get any of this Williams mess.... sure Paddy may have under delivered speed wise this years expectation and hopefully he or someone has figured it out but seems way way more of an issue then him or her.

 

Perhaps, we keep hearing how Mercedes keep hiring all the good staffing.. maybe instead of budget cap.. how about a personnel cap per department.  So all teams have the same amount of people working for them.  So say NMT 50 in earo, NMT 50 in chassis, NMT 50 in the race track team etc..  NMT 200 in power unit group etc.

 

Seems ridiculous if you have 15 people designing rear view mirrors if that is the case..

 

I can not even being to comprehend how 150m is spent when teams like Haas are running on 40m...

 

So HAAS can pay Ferrari for the engines (lets say 20m), Dallara what.. 5m for design and production and crash testing.. so that leaves 15 for chassis and race operations.. lets say another 10m for race so 5 for front and rear ends and tires.

 

Where in the world is Williams spending their money..

20m for engines

10m for race ops and tires

5m for tub production and testing

5m for gearbox production, development and testing

8m for Aero If Dallara can develop an aero package for lets say 4m.. lets say doublt that for WIlliams

 

So brakes and suspension is costing what..100m??????

 

I do not get how Haas is able to field a car for 1/3rd of Williams budget paying relatively the same amout for engines and having to pay a supplier for their aero cand tub..  Where is Williams spending 100m and getting nothing for it?? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:  BTW, I think the HAAS model is compeltely wrong and the biggest broken element of F1 today.  I accepted for year 1.. but they shouldn't be like that at this point..


Edited by Paco, 24 March 2019 - 17:00.


#370 BRG

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 16:53

Cool.

Claire have good previous experience of running F1 team, she was in charge of marketing before right?

Every single F1 team principal that there has ever been was NOT a F1 team principal before that.  Some were drivers, some were business people, some were mechanics, some were wanted Indian tycoons.  The only thing that is different about Claire Williams is that she is committing the worst of all sins - being female.



#371 noikeee

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 16:53

Haas are running on 40M? Since when?

#372 Paco

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 17:03

Haas are running on 40M? Since when?

 

The man himself Gunther said so on Netflex Formula 1:  Drive to Survive.. believe episode 1 at 9min mark.

 

Correction:  rewatched.. it was a voiceover asking how they can compete with the big teams on a 40m budget.  The voice wasn't Gunther's voice.  However, Gunther said that they had 212 employees as of Aus 2018.. rewound rewound rewound the clip and perhaps they said 140m (there was a loud drum beat the moment he said the figure)..

 

Now even if he underplayed it and Claire over did it.. its clear their budgets are magnitudes different, both paying for engines, similar race and testing costs, tub building has to e similar costs and yet their performances levels are way off.  I get HAAS buy all old Ferrari year tech and some current but still..it wasn't that long ago they were neck and neck wtih Ferrari when Ferrari's pu wasn't up to par.  So that chassis back then couldn't have been that far off..

 

So perhaps similar budgets, buying Ferrari tech is the simple answer ;-)


Edited by Paco, 24 March 2019 - 17:25.


#373 PayasYouRace

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 17:12

It costs a lot do develop your own stuff, something which Haas has the luxury of not having to worry about. Haas buys much of its equipment off the shelf, so to speak. Williams develops just about everything on its own. That’s where the budgets get sunk into. That’s why we’ve been talking about budget caps for the past decade. You’d have to consider a large chunk of Ferrari’s budget in Haas development costs, which is almost impossible because it’s a byproduct of Ferrari’s own development.

Without whatever problems the team has had to deal with over the past couple of years, their budget would be seeing them to about 5th-6th where they were just a short time ago.

#374 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 17:12

Every single F1 team principal that there has ever been was NOT a F1 team principal before that. Some were drivers, some were business people, some were mechanics, some were wanted Indian tycoons. The only thing that is different about Claire Williams is that she is committing the worst of all sins - being female.

Absurd!

Top 3 teams' principald before F1:

Wolff - Motorsport career as driver, founded 2 investment companies, coowner of Williams.

Binotto - degree in Vehicle Engineering. Since 95 with ferrari, engine dept at first. Part of Schumi-Brown-Todt Super team. Chief tech director since 2016.

Horner - Motorsport experience as a driver, F3000 team principle since 1999.

C. Williams - press officer at Silverstone, communication officer at Williams since 2010, in 2011 promoted to director of marketing. 2013 appointed deputy team principal.

We are talking 16x World Champions here. She is just not on par with other principales and she did not became Williams boss on merit either. And this is the result.

Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 24 March 2019 - 17:16.


#375 PayasYouRace

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 17:17

Absurd!
Top 3 teams' principald before F1:
Wolff - Motorsport career as driver, founded 2 investment companies, coowner of Williams.
Binotto - degree in Vehicle Engineering. Since 95 with ferrari, engine dept at first. Part of Schumi-Brown-Todt Super team. Chief tech director since 2016.
Horner - Motorsport experience as a driver, F3000 team principle since 1999.
C. Williams - press officer at Silverstone, communication officer at Williams since 2010, in 2011 promoted to director of marketing. 2013 appointed deputy team principal.
She is just not on par with other principales and she did not became Williams boss on merit either. And this is the result.

So actually, none of them were F1 team principals before their current job. Exactly BRG’s point. Those other 3 have varying experience, like Binotto coming up through the team internally like Claire.

Edit: There’s no need to inflate Williams championships count by counting drivers’ and constructors’ separately just to make it seem even worse. Call it 10 at best. The 9 WCCs and 1982 for Keke. But as we all know, past success doesn’t mean anything in F1, especially when it’s decades ago.

#376 P123

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 17:23

I do not get how Haas is able to field a car for 1/3rd of Williams budget paying relatively the same amout for engines and having to pay a supplier for their aero cand tub..  Where is Williams spending 100m and getting nothing for it?? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:  BTW, I think the HAAS model is compeltely wrong and the biggest broken element of F1 today.  I accepted for year 1.. but they shouldn't be like that at this point..


Haas spend more than that, and F1 is clearly a very expensive game.

#377 noikeee

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 17:25

So actually, none of them were F1 team principals before their current job. Exactly BRG’s point. Those other 3 have varying experience, like Binotto coming up through the team internally like Claire.

Edit: There’s no need to inflate Williams championships count by counting drivers’ and constructors’ separately just to make it seem even worse. Call it 10 at best. The 9 WCCs and 1982 for Keke. But as we all know, past success doesn’t mean anything in F1, especially when it’s decades ago.

 

I think there's very legitimate questions about Claire's credentials. Everyone else in similar roles is either a successful entrepeneur of some kind or a tech person. Claire's a PR/marketing person.



#378 noikeee

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 17:26

The man himself Gunther said so on Netflex Formula 1:  Drive to Survive.. believe episode 1 at 9min mark.

 

Correction:  rewatched.. it was a voiceover asking how they can compete with the big teams on a 40m budget.  The voice wasn't Gunther's voice.  However, Gunther said that they had 212 employees as of Aus 2018.. rewound rewound rewound the clip and perhaps they said 140m (there was a loud drum beat the moment he said the figure)..

 

Now even if he underplayed it and Claire over did it.. its clear their budgets are magnitudes different, both paying for engines, similar race and testing costs, tub building has to e similar costs and yet their performances levels are way off.  I get HAAS buy all old Ferrari year tech and some current but still..it wasn't that long ago they were neck and neck wtih Ferrari when Ferrari's pu wasn't up to par.  So that chassis back then couldn't have been that far off..

 

So perhaps similar budgets, buying Ferrari tech is the simple answer ;-)

 

Ha, it's fine, you saved me time as I was just going to look it up rewatching too.  :p



#379 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 17:28

I think there's very legitimate questions about Claire's credentials. Everyone else in similar roles is either a successful entrepeneur of some kind or a tech person. Claire's a PR/marketing person.


My point exactly.

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#380 StanBarrett2

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 17:52

Claire's a PR/marketing person.

So is Dieter Mateschitz...............but.......

 

you have it or you don't.



#381 absinthedude

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 18:00

First of all, Paddy Lowe probably hasn't yet been fired. As previously explained there needs to be a process by which it is agreed to end his contract. This will almost certainly involve lawyers, time and money going Lowe's way. You can't simply fire someone in Europe. Unless they turn out to have lied in their job application, committed some heinous crime such as murder or gross misconduct such as stealing company funds. 

 

So...there may currently be no position open. Williams may not lawfully advertise Lowe's position if he's still under contract. Nor can they make his post redundant and then hire someone else to essentially do the same work.

 

Secondly, do we actually know that Williams in in financial trouble...or is this merely conjecture "They lost Martini and Stroll so from my vantage point in my Lay-Z-Boy I think they're in trouble"......as previously stated they are a publicly traded company and although things can and do change....their last posted accounts were healthy. It's not like they have no ability to hire staff members as there are currently several ads out for senior aero staff positions within Williams. 



#382 absinthedude

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 18:03

Haas are running on 40M? Since when?

 

Haas were said to be on 110 millions euros for 2018, the same as Force India. 

 

https://www.gptoday....-teams-for-2018



#383 WilliamsF1Fan

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 18:05

So is Dieter Mateschitz...............but.......

 

you have it or you don't.

 

Mateschitz marketed an energy drink.  Claire Williams was mostly head of communications and for one year she was commercial director.  I am not entirely sure of your point as the two products are so different, never mind the actual jobs.  



#384 BRG

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 18:29

Bernie Ecclestone was a used car salesman

Ken Tyrell ran a woodyard

Arrivabene was a cigarette salesman

Flavio Briatore sold jumpers for Benneton (don't mention the thong - I did, but I don't think they noticed)

etc

etc

 

And anyway, Claire Williams is only Deputy Team Principal.  Sir Frank remains the Big Boss.



#385 PayasYouRace

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 18:32

And anyway, Claire Williams is only Deputy Team Principal.  Sir Frank remains the Big Boss.


That might be a source of problems at the top. The balance of Claire being the hands on aspect while Sir Frank is now more removed from the day to day of the team.

#386 noikeee

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 19:09

Bernie Ecclestone was a used car salesman
Ken Tyrell ran a woodyard
Arrivabene was a cigarette salesman
Flavio Briatore sold jumpers for Benneton (don't mention the thong - I did, but I don't think they noticed)
etc
etc

And anyway, Claire Williams is only Deputy Team Principal. Sir Frank remains the Big Boss.


Yes, but we're not in the 1970s anymore. Also I think all of those guys qualify as successful entrepreneurs of some sort.

But I don't want to snipe at Claire too much, first I think their problems run much deeper than "bad team principal", second I don't have enough information to judge her. And third I think she has qualities, for start she talks very well which I think is actually pretty important, and also I think she comes off as pretty ruthless which is a key trait to have in F1. That she had the ambition and guts to take on the job over her seemingly more qualified brother, already says a lot and I don't interpret it as a negative! But at F1 the level of competition is sky-high, so I wonder whether having a person without the required qualifications at the helm will be a handicap, even if this person is pretty competent at certain things in her own right.

#387 tormave

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 19:33

Because they like the money?

I doubt Williams is in a position to offer superstar money to a tech director. Even if they were, no single person can turn this team around. They’ve been bleeding talent for years, and now it seems also the non-human resources like parts are getting scarce.

Because there are no other F1 or equivalent openings available?

For instance Renault is growing their team in 2019.

Because they want to make a name by turning round the fortunes of a historic team?

You can make a name by succeeding, and success is only possible in somewhat favourable circumstances.

Because they relish the challenge?

A turnaround leader will typically want 100% control. Based on the reporting this not on offer at Williams. Whoever they get next will need to fix the issues with one hand tied behind their back.

I have nothing against Claire Williams or women as team leads in general. I actually think Kalterborn did an OK job in extremely difficult circumstances. Sauber is a good case study here. Selling the team and getting new management in place seems like a necessity for a turnaround.

#388 Mohican

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 21:07

Sauber and Force India were both bust; and both were saved by third party investors who took control, installing new management. If that does not happen at Williams, they will soon be gone too.

Williams certainly did nothing to help when Caterham, Manor, Sauber and Force India went under - on the contrary, they were very arrogant then and do not deserve any sympathy now.

#389 DeKnyff

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 21:59

Bernie Ecclestone was a used car salesman

Would you buy a used car from this man?



#390 Sterzo

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 22:09

^ I met someone in the nineties who had bought a used motorbike from Ecclestone in the fifties, and was still ranting about it. Nothing he said is repeatable.


Edited by Sterzo, 24 March 2019 - 22:09.


#391 baddog

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 04:50

She will, once her father passes, own the company. The fact she went into the family business, is still working there after 17 years(!), and is clearly intending to stay there (rather than treat her inheritance a a piggy bank to be sold as soon as possible) is a GOOD thing for ****s sake. She has already been deputy (functionally actual I guess) team principal for 6 years. 



#392 Mohican

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 08:29

She will, once her father passes, own the company. The fact she went into the family business, is still working there after 17 years(!), and is clearly intending to stay there (rather than treat her inheritance a a piggy bank to be sold as soon as possible) is a GOOD thing for ****s sake. She has already been deputy (functionally actual I guess) team principal for 6 years. 

 

Exactly. And who is responsible for the current situation if not the management ?

 

There might not be a company to stay at for much longer - and as for a "piggy bank", there has to be a purchaser as well. Do you see them lining up ?



#393 Marklar

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 08:33

So is Dieter Mateschitz...............but.......

you have it or you don't.

Mateschitz has pretty much nothing to do with Red Bull Racing's every day work though.

#394 Rinehart

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 08:46

Haas were said to be on 110 millions euros for 2018, the same as Force India. 

 

https://www.gptoday....-teams-for-2018

My understanding of the Haas model is not that its cheaper than doing it the "Williams" way, the advantages are (especially beneficial for a new team), massively lower capital start up costs as you don't need half the people or facilities. Then, once up and running, you get a relatively guaranteed level of performance since your bolting together 50% or more of a top car... The downside is your ultimate competitiveness is probably pegged as there seems little scope to be as quick let alone quicker than your mothership. BUT, its sustainable... 



#395 KevR

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 09:19

My understanding of the Haas model is not that its cheaper than doing it the "Williams" way, the advantages are (especially beneficial for a new team), massively lower capital start up costs as you don't need half the people or facilities. Then, once up and running, you get a relatively guaranteed level of performance since your bolting together 50% or more of a top car... The downside is your ultimate competitiveness is probably pegged as there seems little scope to be as quick let alone quicker than your mothership. BUT, its sustainable...


Good summary. That's the problem of the sport. They will always be sustainable with the right cash flow, but never competitive at the top. And essentially they are a B-class team, or Ferrari B-team. That's the stagnancy in F1 (don't want to say current F1 because it well may have been like that already for a long time). The solutions have been well known for years and will never be implemented: budget cap, fair distribution of money, each team independent, etc...

#396 baddog

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 09:52

Exactly. And who is responsible for the current situation if not the management ?

 

 

Oh noone else is responsible.. but owner teams dedicated to racing are stable in comparison to anything else, long term.



#397 taran

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 10:03

So is Dieter Mateschitz...............but.......

 

you have it or you don't.

 

And he has people running his teams for him. Experienced people. With suitable qualifications.

The notion that every team principle wasn't one before he/she got the job is a smokescreen.

Or the poster is not playing with a full deck of cards.

 

Because that's not the point. The point is that practically every team principle has had management experience qualifying them for the job before they became team principal of a F1 team. Claire Williams doesn't have those credentials.

 

 


 



#398 taran

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 10:15

Good summary. That's the problem of the sport. They will always be sustainable with the right cash flow, but never competitive at the top. And essentially they are a B-class team, or Ferrari B-team. That's the stagnancy in F1 (don't want to say current F1 because it well may have been like that already for a long time). The solutions have been well known for years and will never be implemented: budget cap, fair distribution of money, each team independent, etc...

 

Is it really such a problem, though?

If you look at F1, you only had a relatively short period in the 1970s and 1980s in which there were a fair number of top teams (Lotus, Williams, Brabham, Ligier, Renault, Ferrari, McLaren etc. ) who were genuinely capable of title challenges if they got the car right. The other teams were always also-runs. They might have a shock success, usually because of reliability issues for the top teams, but were hardly ever as fast. It was almost always the same teams winning, just as we seen now.

 

These other teams might not have been actual B-teams but could only hope to be consistent point scorers at best. Same as the B-teams we have now. And there is nothing stopping the current B-teams from building up their technical resources to eventually build their own chassis and challenging the top teams. Haas even said they wanted to build their own car in a couple of years.



#399 Beri

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 11:54

My understanding of the Haas model is not that its cheaper than doing it the "Williams" way, the advantages are (especially beneficial for a new team), massively lower capital start up costs as you don't need half the people or facilities. Then, once up and running, you get a relatively guaranteed level of performance since your bolting together 50% or more of a top car... The downside is your ultimate competitiveness is probably pegged as there seems little scope to be as quick let alone quicker than your mothership. BUT, its sustainable...


If that model alone is sustainable, F1 really needs a breakdown to it's core and redevelop itself. Customer bought cars have always been around. But it's just plain ridiculous that independent teams are just field filling because F1 only gives a sh*t about the current top 3 teams. "New fans" can't give a rats *ss about other teams because they are not involved with the history of F1. McLaren and Williams only bring sympathy by the established fan. Not the new target fans that Liberty eyes.

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#400 TheWilliamzer

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 12:19

I always wonder why Jonathan, who is the one with the experience of running a racing team, was not considered in front of his sister...