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Williams: Drivers, management and other folks at Grove 2019


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#401 Beri

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 12:23

I always wonder why Jonathan, who is the one with the experience of running a racing team, was not considered in front of his sister...


Wasn't it because he was weighed and declared incapable for any management function?

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#402 Nathan

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 14:23

So in other words he would be perfect.

 

If that model alone is sustainable, F1 really needs a breakdown to it's core and redevelop itself. Customer bought cars have always been around. But it's just plain ridiculous that independent teams are just field filling because F1 only gives a sh*t about the current top 3 teams. "New fans" can't give a rats *ss about other teams because they are not involved with the history of F1. McLaren and Williams only bring sympathy by the established fan. Not the new target fans that Liberty eyes.

 

 

There is a bit to disagree with here...  

 

Independent teams have been filler for decades now with very little exception.  Going back my 25 years of watching the sport Benetton and Jordan have managed otherwise, but only for short periods of time and Benetton because Briatore assembled a true dream team.  I have always considered Red Bull independent because unlike McLaren they have never took instruction from Renault, or sold them a piece of the company, or really treated them as anything more than an engine supplier.  You need a magnifying glass to spot the Honda branding on the RB15. The irony is you have to go back 40 years to find 'independent' success for Williams and the last independent success for McLaren was when they wrote cheques to Porsche.

 

So, an F1 team has almost always had to give up independence to be a regular race winner.  Frank had his limits hence BMW-Sauber, but Ron was quick to undo his belt.

 

Here is the rub for me.  The B-teams don't bother the A-teams.  Only one B-car wasn't lapped in Melbourne.  Williams and McLaren should not be regularly beaten by B-teams.  Being beaten by B-Teams just shows how bad they are compared to Red Bull, Ferrari and Mercedes.  Independent FI/Racing. now regularly confirms the issue because they have hundreds fewer people than Williams and McLaren and unquestionably the smallest budget of the three.

 

So IMO the two independent teams in question have put themselves in their own competitive position more than these B-teams gaining advantage.  We have spoken volumes here about the mis management of McLaren and Williams. 

 

Maybe what it shows is F1 performance is too aero dependent and too complicated technologically.  Maybe managing F1 teams has become more dififcult and history becomes a weight?  Outside Maranello F1 has very slow manager turnover.

 

 

As for fans....every F1 related docu-show/series I have watched on YouTube or Netflix always manages to shine a bright light on McLaren and Williams.  McLaren now make some of the most desired sports cars. FWIW, Williams is capable of replicating what Pagani and Koenigsegg do, regardless both companies do very good PR, many new fans know who they are and lots of new fans will be attracted to the two teams because they are wired towards nostalgia. Both are linked to Senna, F1 and to different levels are under dogs.  Its up to each of them to put their names in peoples minds.  That is a corporate responsibility in any field.



#403 absinthedude

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 15:11

I always wonder why Jonathan, who is the one with the experience of running a racing team, was not considered in front of his sister...

 

Because Claire was already working at the team and the two cannot stand each other, nor even be in the same room as each other. 



#404 tormave

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 20:08

Particularly when you consider that Jody Egginton is still officially only the Deputy Technical Director at Scuderia Toro Rosso following James Key moving to McLaren (where he starts officially tomorrow.) That must mean there is at least one other senior technical role up for grabs at the moment that any potential new Williams Technical Director would be considering instead.

 

Eggington was promoted to Tech Director today.



#405 GoldenEra

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 10:15

https://twitter.com/...7733626880?s=19

Google translate is a bit iffy. Can a native Polish speaker confirm if Robert said Williams have no spare floor for Bahrain?

https://twitter.com/...5760803840?s=19

This tweet says that the damage first appeared in FP1.

https://twitter.com/...209003328159744

Again, low/no(?) spare parts.

Edited by GoldenEra, 28 March 2019 - 10:16.


#406 szym3k

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 11:13

Translation of RK quotes from link at bottom.

“Realistically speaking, we have a hard task ahead of us again. It’s true that Bahrain is different [circuit], but in a week’s time there won’t be a miracle. Despite that, we have to achieve the maximum. But again, the amount of spare parts is limited.”

“On the kerbs in Australia I damaged the floor - driving just as others did and we did not have a spare. Now we will also have to drive carefully and avoid kerbs”

“You won’t make up delays from Barcelona in one week. Now we are paying the price for what occurred two months ago. I was being told the damage had no effect, but after analyzing the data it revealed that the effect of the damage had A greater effect” - damage occurred in FP1

“Definitely, some things I could have done differently in Australia. Something happened, which caused a worse feeling in the car in rapid phases. We could have done something about it, but it’s not easy to react in such a moment.”

RK being told by team - “You have to avoid the kerbs, or risk that the car will fall apart and we don’t have spare parts.”

“We have an issue with increasing aero downforce. But there are certain areas that might unblock lots of lap time.”

https://www.instagra...d=1as0zwnvzfeth

#407 statman

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 13:06

Russell @ Bahrain: "Car is the same like the one in Australia"



#408 Paco

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 13:19

:confused:      Wow, 2 weeks on... 8weeks on and they still don't have spare floors or many of anything and people still want to convince themselves its not a money thing...And yes, it's all Paddy's fault for poor execution  :rolleyes:  (sarcasm)

 

Wonder when the staff will walk off for not getting paid.. if they can't pay those measily fees for parts.. surely the staff must be working for free at this point..  Can't imagine the wind tunnel is running all that much either so doubt they'll be able to fix anything anytime soon.  

 

Wow, painful.  


Edited by Paco, 28 March 2019 - 13:22.


#409 cromofo

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 13:20

Utterly embarrassing.



#410 Sixpounder

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 14:36

I'm almost glad I'm working this weekend.



#411 Paco

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 15:51

Might be time to invest in DuctTape, Williams are surely going to be going through the stuff at an accelerated pace trying to keep these 2 chassis together for 1/2 a year..



#412 TheJammin

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 15:55

It's hard to root for Williams in such circumstances. It's embarrassing.

 

Might have to leave my Williams shirt in the wardrobe this weekend, it looks tired and might fall apart. I don't have a spare one.



#413 Thatfastguy

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 16:03

The signs are Williams are going to be an ever bigger embarrassment than last year. There is no closing this big a gap. They should limp it home this season and start focussing on the next season tomorrow. They need huge restructuring if they won't consider the b-team route or just pull out all together.   


Edited by Thatfastguy, 28 March 2019 - 16:05.


#414 PayasYouRace

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 16:04

They need to get on top of whatever manufacturing issue is holding them back at the moment first.



#415 cromofo

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 17:00

giphy.gif

 

Waiting 8 years for RK to have a proper run in F1 and it's 2019 Williams. May the Lord grant George and Robert patience and strength. Something is very rotten in the team's core.



#416 RA2

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 18:04

They should sign a parts deal with Mercedes for whatever they can get, then develop the same going forward.

What ever they have under the car is clearly not working and certainly not only aero.

#417 tghik

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 18:10

They need to get on top of whatever manufacturing issue is holding them back at the moment first.

 

Manufacturing is one, but how the heck the car gets damaged so easily ? Kubica said the floor broke only after 5th lap in FP1, driving on kerbs. They won't be able to manufacture the spares fast enough.



#418 TomNokoe

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 18:55

2 weeks after Australia and things are only getting worse... :cry:

Edited by TomNokoe, 28 March 2019 - 18:55.


#419 GiorgioF1

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 18:55

Racefans: Kubica has to avoid kerbs due to parts shortage

 

https://www.racefans...parts-shortage/



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#420 P123

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 19:05

Not sure why all the surprise- it was already known the first few races of the season at the very least would be write-offs. At one stage it was even rumoured that they were struggling to make Melbourne. Nothing is getting worse, but it is a monumental failure, especially following on from last season. Lowe's department gave them a slower, overweight, parts shy and illegal car that required modifications. That would take some fixing for even the more well resourced teams.

#421 TheWilliamzer

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 20:29

the car have fund-a-mental issues



#422 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 20:46

How difficult is to build a spare floor for team like Williams? What is involved? How much would it cost? Seriously, can they just not build this damn floor? This is honest question.

Maybe Orlen should pay for this stupid floor if Williams can't afford it, as Kubica claims he cannot go over the kerbs. Madness.

Seriously how much could freakin floor cost? What are they gonna do if engine goes? They spent all the money on mirrors?

Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 28 March 2019 - 20:52.


#423 RacingGreen

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 20:48

It's like watching the antics of a budget start-up team in their first year of F1.



#424 JustNotFastEnough

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 21:41

Williams is a complete mess and to move forward, they need to be brutally honest with themselves. Football teams are a good analogy, where once great teams via mismanagement, poor staff choices and poor player recruitment have found themselves relegated and have struggled for years to get back. Some never get back. Sunderland is a prime example of a premier-league team, mismanaged from top to bottom. They were in the top 8 for support base, but complete mismanagement saw them relegated 2 seasons in a row. 

 

Williams have to be honest and realise, despite F1 having no promotion, or demotion, they have been left behind with a car almost 3 seconds off the leading team, with the same engine, lubricants and fuel. This is a disgrace of epic proportions. Williams needs resetting and re-balancing and Claire Williams can do this, only if she is practical.

 

The 1st thing Claire Williams must acknowledge, is the survival of the team is paramount. The 2nd is to make the team competitive in the short term. Hence the only logical solution is a tie up with Mercedes, in a B team status. She can spin it as she wants, but this is her only choice.

 

A Junior/B team tie up with Mercedes, will leave Williams 0.7 - 1 second behind Mercedes. All Williams will have to do is to concentrate on Aero and building their own chassis. Toro Rosso is allegedly using last years Red Bull chassis, even though the chassis is built in-house, the company is separate and thus the relationship is akin to buying a Chassis from Dallara, so using the old Mercedes chassis option (if possible) must also be considered.

 

IMO Claire Williams should be on all fours, begging Toto for a tie-up, including voting with Mercedes on all issues, taking excess staff from Mercedes/Stuttgart to be trained, placing at least 1 Mercedes driver program drivers into a seat etc. A Mercedes Tie up will instantly put Williams into the Top 10 and given historic trends, it’s simply a no-brainer given the direction F1 is going. Not doing so means Williams is all but finish.



#425 FLB

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 22:03

They are entering 1992 Brabham territory.



#426 noikeee

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 22:37

Yeah I'm too starting to believe they're seriously short on cash. Still having a lack of spare parts after this long is odd. This is most definitely not the standards you expect of Williams.



#427 danmills

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 23:21

Something definitely going on behind the scenes that we don’t know about. Being optimistic is normal as a Williams fan but there is very little to hold onto at the moment. I thought Honda would buy them, but even that is now a pipe dream.

Their way of running does not work with modern f1. They stretched it this far, like Jordan, but the bubble should have burst years ago. It’s not Claire’s fault, she has genuine passion, but think Frank is the stubborn one that still gets the last word. Heaven forbid nothing happens to Frank, but if Claire is given ultimate control I think that is when we will see a shift. Deals will be made that Frank would never allow. Sadly, I think the current operation will fold long before FW hangs up the towel.

#428 PayasYouRace

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 23:25

 

 

 

IMO Claire Williams should be on all fours, begging Toto for a tie-up, including voting with Mercedes on all issues, taking excess staff from Mercedes/Stuttgart to be trained, placing at least 1 Mercedes driver program drivers into a seat etc. A Mercedes Tie up will instantly put Williams into the Top 10 and given historic trends, it’s simply a no-brainer given the direction F1 is going. Not doing so means Williams is all but finish.

 

 

Well they've already got the Mercedes junior driver.

 

They took Mercedes' technical director and that clearly hasn't worked because he's now gone. I don't know what is going on there, but they don't need to go to the extremes of letting Mercedes take over the team. They only need to look back 5 years and analyse why they were 3rd in the WCC two years in a row.



#429 Izzyeviel

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 23:47

I don't remember the Minardi team being this bad. This is Mastercard lola stuff. They need to sell the team, but who would want to buy it? Andretti? Stoddart? Stefan? Bernie?



#430 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 00:00

Kubica confirms he needs to watch out not to damage the floor over kerbs, Russell confirms they are lacking downforce.

https://youtu.be/YJ-VGHd_H74 Starts at 34 ish

RK prising guys pushing and working hard in factory to solve the issue.

Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 29 March 2019 - 00:02.


#431 noikeee

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 00:27

They only need to look back 5 years and analyse why they were 3rd in the WCC two years in a row.

 

Well, it wasn't the whole story, but they had a huge engine advantage over most of the grid that doesn't exist anymore...



#432 Paco

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 02:20

How difficult is to build a spare floor for team like Williams? What is involved? How much would it cost? Seriously, can they just not build this damn floor? This is honest question.

Maybe Orlen should pay for this stupid floor if Williams can't afford it, as Kubica claims he cannot go over the kerbs. Madness.

Seriously how much could freakin floor cost? What are they gonna do if engine goes? They spent all the money on mirrors?

 

That's the exact point.  The only reason not being able to produce a floor (of which they already have the mold) is simply.. LOCKED BANK ACCOUNTS.  There were unusual rumors they were going around asking for Carbon elements as they were unable to pay a supplier.  seem uncomprehend able  for a team as Williams to be that that that resource limited but alias, it seems to have come to pass.  There is zero reason they couldn't have made one in 2-weeks time, let alone had a spare already in production before the last race.. unless they are in "administration like" situation since doesn't seem full blown bankruptcy.. so someone external to them is controlling every penny.. if so, probably assuring Their Accounts Payable is addressed 1st before allowing new expenses to occur.

 

Its one thing to say partner up (even I said pages before) but if they can not pay for simple fees, how are they going to pay for a full chassis etc from Mercedes, plus would involve 2-6 months to get an aero package to fit it all the while paying for that R&D etc.  Can't see how that would work out at this stage in the season.

 

Wow... No wonder they were so bad last year, its truly amazing Paddy was able to even field a new car that is at least stable now but man alive it must have been impossible to do anything the past 6 months there.. :well:


Edited by Paco, 29 March 2019 - 02:22.


#433 SennasCat

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 02:41

Its emabarassingly bad for all concerned. It's almost the next chapter of Perry McCarthys Flat Out Flat Broke.



#434 tghik

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 02:53

It's not because they are cashless, geez, it costs more to send the whole crew and package to the next track. And you may miss some numbers at the end of the year, not in the beginning. Comon guys... if they borrowed carbon from other teams they'd have the spares ready, without cash

 

Someone f...... up or they just wait for the design department to come up with a new updated concept.



#435 Muppetmad

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 04:00

I've been away for the past few weeks, so I was only able to catch highlights of the weekend (and I haven't looked through the thread - so apologies for any repetition of what has already been said). First of all, credit to both drivers for getting to the finish in clearly suboptimal circumstances. Russell did a very good, solid job on a first weekend - can't fault the guy there, well done to him. Kubica's qualifying error was unfortunate - although these things happen - and the first lap was very unlucky for him. Hopefully he can bounce back this weekend...

 

...although Williams aren't making that easy for him by not having the necessary spares and requiring him to avoid the kerbs. How can you even approach the limit with such limitations? As has been noted above, the situation behind the scenes is clearly fraught. I maintain that the line up should help to push the car and team forwards, but there is only so much the drivers can do. 


Edited by Muppetmad, 29 March 2019 - 04:02.


#436 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 04:39

giphy.gif

Waiting 8 years for RK to have a proper run in F1 and it's 2019 Williams. May the Lord grant George and Robert patience and strength. Something is very rotten in the team's core.

Why does it all have to be about Kubica? I get it's a shitshow at Williams right now but its a phenomenal achievement just for RK to be back in F1. Cherish it and hope that, at some point, Williams start to track in the right direction.

Surely it can't get any worse. Unless there are serious troubles not yet publicly known.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 29 March 2019 - 04:41.


#437 PayasYouRace

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 08:05

Well, it wasn't the whole story, but they had a huge engine advantage over most of the grid that doesn't exist anymore...

 

Even so they weren't the worst team using that engine. After that initial advantage was eroded, they were still in the 5th/6th place near Force India where you'd expect them to be. So that's what they need to look at to see what they were doing right.



#438 outofspace

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 09:05

Unfortunately Williams drivers will need this as a standard equipment when driving:
 

1_max.jpg


Edited by outofspace, 29 March 2019 - 09:06.


#439 GiorgioF1

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 09:21

The only thing that would explain their lack of spares is that they are prepairing some proper upgrades already that will be introduced in the next few races (and I'd imagine there will be quite a lot of them) so they want to concentrate fully on closing the gap to the midfield.

I dont buy that they dont have the money already after just one race of the season.



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#440 statman

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 09:42

That's the exact point.  The only reason not being able to produce a floor (of which they already have the mold) is simply.. LOCKED BANK ACCOUNTS.  There were unusual rumors they were going around asking for Carbon elements as they were unable to pay a supplier.  seem uncomprehend able  for a team as Williams to be that that that resource limited but alias, it seems to have come to pass.  There is zero reason they couldn't have made one in 2-weeks time, let alone had a spare already in production before the last race.. unless they are in "administration like" situation since doesn't seem full blown bankruptcy.. so someone external to them is controlling every penny.. if so, probably assuring Their Accounts Payable is addressed 1st before allowing new expenses to occur.

 

Its one thing to say partner up (even I said pages before) but if they can not pay for simple fees, how are they going to pay for a full chassis etc from Mercedes, plus would involve 2-6 months to get an aero package to fit it all the while paying for that R&D etc.  Can't see how that would work out at this stage in the season.

 

Wow... No wonder they were so bad last year, its truly amazing Paddy was able to even field a new car that is at least stable now but man alive it must have been impossible to do anything the past 6 months there.. :well:

 

:up:



#441 SenorSjon

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 10:14

The only thing that would explain their lack of spares is that they are prepairing some proper upgrades already that will be introduced in the next few races (and I'd imagine there will be quite a lot of them) so they want to concentrate fully on closing the gap to the midfield.

I dont buy that they dont have the money already after just one race of the season.

 

I don't believe they do. They already had a 'fundamental issue' with this car after the first test, just like last years car. But they focussed on 2019 early so it would be allright...  :rolleyes:

 

 

F2 did 1.43.618 this morning. The Williams Trainee was second with 1.43.912. Russel was second with an 1.41.8 in F2 qualifying last year.

 

Williams was 18th and 20th with 1.31.4/5 I do wonder what it will be this year. I think it is the power straights that help them stay ahead of F2.



#442 Dennista

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 11:18

nM2toVK.jpg



#443 MadYarpen

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 11:55

The only thing that would explain their lack of spares is that they are prepairing some proper upgrades already that will be introduced in the next few races (and I'd imagine there will be quite a lot of them) so they want to concentrate fully on closing the gap to the midfield.

I dont buy that they dont have the money already after just one race of the season.

The thing is that lack of money can be not only "after just one race" but can follow some other events in the past. Its not like they cut everything off at the end of the year, then get new money and all happens within one season.

 

The explanation with upgrades would be nice, but I don't really buy it...



#444 GiorgioF1

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 12:19

Patrick Head is now working as a consultant for the team.


Edited by GiorgioF1, 29 March 2019 - 12:19.


#445 tghik

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 12:20

Patrick Head will solve parts manufacturing issue

 

Melbourne was a specific track, we will see here clearer picture where Williams stands. I still think once they start to attack the kerbs, overtaking Point Racing is possible especially that of Stroll.



#446 Izzyeviel

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 12:57

Things seem a tad better...



#447 pdac

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 13:03

It's not because they are cashless, geez, it costs more to send the whole crew and package to the next track. And you may miss some numbers at the end of the year, not in the beginning. Comon guys... if they borrowed carbon from other teams they'd have the spares ready, without cash

 

Someone f...... up or they just wait for the design department to come up with a new updated concept.

 

Sort of what I was thinking. If they are a bit tight on the budget and they are redesigning things, then they probably don't want to spend money manufacturing parts that were poorly designed and are due to be replaced at some point. I'm not saying that this is what is happening or even if it is the correct strategy, if true. But it seems like a more plausible explanation to me.



#448 Paco

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 14:21

It's not because they are cashless, geez, it costs more to send the whole crew and package to the next track. And you may miss some numbers at the end of the year, not in the beginning. Comon guys... if they borrowed carbon from other teams they'd have the spares ready, without cash

 

Someone f...... up or they just wait for the design department to come up with a new updated concept.

 

Its called budgeting.. they have a commercial obligation to attend every race or else face huge fines and removal from the series.  Even their creditors etc. would make every effort based on the plan to attend every race at all costs to keeping the organization alive.  Not attending is a zero option, fielding ducttaped car's is an option..  as long as it isn't deemed a safety issue.  I do not know enough about British Employment law to know if employees can work knowing they are may not be paid if under some element of a administration like situation.

 

There is force major type applications that Williams could file if they failed to qualify for a car issue due to parts or even race but I do not believe there would be any chance of rescuing them should they not show up for a GP.  Especially with Racing Point I highly doubt would agree after Williams not being the most cooperative last season with the FI-RP save.


Edited by Paco, 29 March 2019 - 14:26.


#449 cromofo

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 14:27

FP1 times in line with what I thought they would be but looks like they were set on a harder compound than the rest of the drivers. Looks better than Melbourne, minus the lack of parts.

 

I'll cling to anything...



#450 pdac

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 15:49

I do not know enough about British Employment law to know if employees can work knowing they are may not be paid

 

I'm not sure anyone has to work in any developed country if they are not being paid (unless they are working for some sort of government organisation and they have signed their life away). People may voluntarily work because they think it might help and the alternative would be that their employer goes bust and they would be out of a job. But I highly doubt Williams is anywhere near to being a company in server financial trouble.