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McLaren Technical Thread (MCL34) Part 2


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#4651 CPR

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 19:16

I suppose that they could have reverted to a package from earlier in the year when the car was more slippery but had less downforce.  Perhaps it would have been too much trouble or maybe even impossible to do that.  Or perhaps it's evidence that the downforce they've added throughout the season hasn't increased drag enough to have made that switch advantageous.

 

Yeah. Some aero parts have quite a direct relationship between drag and downforce - like the RW. Some are more about cleaning up the airflow or the like - ie they don't produce downforce directly. So, the parts they trimmed back were more the former rather than the latter... is what I would guess.



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#4652 Muz Bee

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 22:21

The MCL34 picture is less clear since the break but Renault PU does appear to have legs to match MB and shade the Honda. This was evident at various times during the Monza race - when Bottas was lapping Norris and the Renaults before their stops when passed by Hamilton - there was a straight line parity between the Mercedes and the Renault powered cars, unthinkable at the beginning of the year.

With regards the slipperiness of our package it does look this has been compromised since Austria (slow medium) where Sainz blew past everyone in the midfield. Silverstone (medium fast) the car looked like it was dragging a barn door just two weeks later but come Spa (fast) and the car in race trim looked back on form probably gained through the slower S3.

I think the flurry of three retirements in two races has shaken us up - at least the car has reasonable race pace heading into some slower circuits. Fixing reliability issues is easier than finding speed. I still think the team is in good shape to nail 4th in WCC.

#4653 New Britain

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 23:38

Andreas Seidl to MARCA about the rest of the season and the MCL34's development compared to next year's MCL35:

https://www.marca.co...d44f8b4589.html
 

One thing: the writer says that the difference between finishing in P4 and in P5 in WCC is worth "many millions". The difference in money is actually about $3m. That's not nothing, but in F1 terms it is not meaningful.



#4654 CPR

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 00:19

One thing: the writer says that the difference between finishing in P4 and in P5 in WCC is worth "many millions". The difference in money is actually about $3m. That's not nothing, but in F1 terms it is not meaningful.

 

Yup. Though they might get bonus payouts from sponsors too...



#4655 New Britain

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 07:15

Yup. Though they might get bonus payouts from sponsors too...

Could be, although rather than prescribed bonuses I think the upside would be in getting new sponsors, encouraging existing sponsors to buy larger packages, and of course the enhanced credibility and motivating effect for the team, retaining/attracting staff, solidifying commitment from shareholders, slightly better choice of pit location, et al.



#4656 CPR

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 15:00

With regards the slipperiness of our package it does look this has been compromised since Austria (slow medium) where Sainz blew past everyone in the midfield. Silverstone (medium fast) the car looked like it was dragging a barn door just two weeks later but come Spa (fast) and the car in race trim looked back on form probably gained through the slower S3.

 

Personally, I'd say that Austria is closer to Spa, both of which were good for us in race pace.

 

Austria has some "slow" corners, but even the slowest is not especially slow and the faster corners tend to be quite long and sweeping. The hot temperatures in Austria also seemed to help us.



#4657 Dennista

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 15:50

Renault must deliver something decent next season otherwise strike a customer deal with Mercedes with view of being the subordinate to knock off Ferrari from the front. I would take that, a double podium yes please. We need some grunt!


Edited by Dennista, 10 September 2019 - 15:51.


#4658 New Britain

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 17:24

Personally, I'd say that Austria is closer to Spa, both of which were good for us in race pace.

 

Austria has some "slow" corners, but even the slowest is not especially slow and the faster corners tend to be quite long and sweeping. The hot temperatures in Austria also seemed to help us.

And the cool temperatures of Spa seemed to help us! :drunk:



#4659 rootten

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 12:21

Renault must deliver something decent next season otherwise strike a customer deal with Mercedes with view of being the subordinate to knock off Ferrari from the front. I would take that, a double podium yes please. We need some grunt!

 

:lol:

 

Yeah, engine is holding McLaren back 

 

What's about Red Bull winning with subpar Renault engine over past few years?



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#4660 CPR

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 13:18

Right now, the Merc engine seems to be improving the least. Perhaps it's still the best overall for the race but for how much longer?

 

I doubt it'll happen but if Renault's PU team make as big a step over the next 12 months as they had over the last 12 months they'd probably be ahead of Merc in terms of performance.

 

With things as they are now, I think we'd need quite a strong reason to swap engine suppliers.

 

In short, most of the gap to the front is for McLaren to solve.



#4661 kumo7

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 22:34

 Not quite sure how it goes, but I got this feeling that the team is working on 2020 car, rather than aiming to take 3rd this year. 

This is to say the situation before the summer. Now, I guess a bit of stimulus is coming from Renault team.

I, still say, that am impressed with the way Renault treat its team on equal foot tho.

Fair rating is good. That is what I want to see.



#4662 mclarensmps

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 23:38

With this PU as it is, an RB-like Chassis should be able to deliver podiums at the very least on occasion. I'm happy with the PU. Let's improve the car. Once McLaren is back to making front running chassis, we can start picking on the PU if needs be. At the moment, the team is still a ways away. 

Seidl is saying all the right things. I'm quietly confident about the future. 



#4663 FNG

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 23:39

 Not quite sure how it goes, but I got this feeling that the team is working on 2020 car, rather than aiming to take 3rd this year. 

This is to say the situation before the summer. Now, I guess a bit of stimulus is coming from Renault team.

I, still say, that am impressed with the way Renault treat its team on equal foot tho.

Fair rating is good. That is what I want to see.

I sure hope they are working on 2020, they don't have a chance in hell at 3rd so that would be a stupid reason not to be starting 2020 car.



#4664 rootten

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 08:36

I sure hope they are working on 2020, they don't have a chance in hell at 3rd so that would be a stupid reason not to be starting 2020 car.

 

This all seems strange to me. There are no rule changes for next season. If they are not working on a new concept of a car then why wouldn't  they develop current car? If they are working on a new concept then why would they put so much resources just for one season? 



#4665 jensfan09

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 10:38

This all seems strange to me. There are no rule changes for next season. If they are not working on a new concept of a car then why wouldn't they develop current car? If they are working on a new concept then why would they put so much resources just for one season?


I don’t think they are working on a whole new concept as it will be an evolution of this year, but probably the design of the 2020 car is different enough that the ideas wouldn’t work on the 2019 car. Although we have seen them testing suspension components which could be for the 2020 car.

#4666 MirNyet

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 10:46

This all seems strange to me. There are no rule changes for next season. If they are not working on a new concept of a car then why wouldn't  they develop current car? If they are working on a new concept then why would they put so much resources just for one season? 

 

Firstly, not everything for the new car will be usable on the current car, suspension or internal layout, radiator, gearbox designs, etc. will certainly not be interchangeable.  Secondly, 'So much resources'?  It's quite usual at this point in the year for the majority of the design effort to be on next years car, I don't see anything odd with updates scaling off now, it's quite normal.  



#4667 CPR

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 12:08

McLaren will be bringing upgrades in the next couple of races - this was confirmed by Seidl. They're probably bringing more than the other midfield teams at least.

 

While the MCL35 will be an evolution that doesn't mean there won't be non-trivial changes. For example, they might well have a rather different FW, which will of course have side-effects on the rest of the car, some parts more than others. So the parts of the car they're likely bringing upgrades to now are likely parts that they're pretty sure won't need to change next year or can be upgraded with relatively little R&D.

 

While the regulations aren't changing next year they're changing massively in 2021. Which likely means all (or most) teams will be entirely focused on the 2021 car from early on in 2020. Putting it another way, most teams will probably bring only minor upgrades after winter testing and probably only to the first 5 or so races. Which means that, right now in 2019, if you want to start a R&D project to upgrade a particular part and it's estimated to require 6 months, then you have to be starting it right now (at the latest) otherwise it's too late.

 

You might ask, well, what if doing that work would provide a big benefit (getting 0.1s from a single part would probably be a lot), wouldn't it be better to do it anyway? The problem is that 2021 is a total reset. Meaning, most R&D on the 2020 won't be useful after 2020. Some parts will be largely unchanged, though until the regulations are finalised it's hard to be sure. The PU regulations aren't likely to change much so that region will probably be fairly stable and I'd imagine that a very tight engine cover will still matter in 2021, but perhaps the optimal shape will change a lot. In the end, what this means is any R&D for 2020 will only get a payoff for one season, but any R&D for 2021 will likely get a payoff across many seasons. Which means that it's actually quite rational to treat 2020 as something of a "throw away" season. Obviously, no team would intentionally harm their chances but what will likely happen in practice is that most teams will simply have to accept that their relative performance at the start of the year will likely be quite close to their relative performance at the end of the year and that the absolute performance of the cars won't change much. Those fighting for the championship might do something else, but for 7-8 teams, this is likely to be the case. In turn, this means that the current R&D work for the 2020 cars is critical - if it goes badly, you might as well write off your whole year. Nobody will even consider doing a B-spec car in 2020. Conversely, if 2020 development goes well then you're likely to have a very good year with little worry about others catching you.



#4668 SparkPlug86

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 15:36

Article on Autosport today... Cyril thinks Renault have the better package over McLaren. I’ll reserve judgement until we get the Mexico/USA... hoping Singapore will get us some points back.

#4669 CPR

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 16:21

Article on Autosport today... Cyril thinks Renault have the better package over McLaren. I’ll reserve judgement until we get the Mexico/USA... hoping Singapore will get us some points back.

 

My initial sarcastic response: so it's your drivers that are the problem then?

 

More seriously: the problem with the Renault (to simplify a lot) isn't that it's not fast, it's that it's not consistently fast. McLaren have rarely been fastest of the midfield in qualifying though they've been "best of the rest" quite a few times in practice in the races. McLaren is much less up and down - much more consistent.

 

I've not been looking at Renault's performance to speculate why but it seems quite "peaky", one way or another. When it works, it works really well. When it doesn't work, it's pretty bad.



#4670 kumo7

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 07:53

 Only that ... this types of performance trends suffers when the peak is not high enough... am not trying to diminish its presence on the track tho,...

I am really looking forward to see what 2020 would look a like for McLaren,...  :up:



#4671 MirNyet

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 10:48

Reliability aside, McLaren had Renault's number in Spa, and Monza had a lot to do with how the cars were trimmed.  McLaren were obviously running a lot more down-force, and thus drag than the Renaults.  I personally thought Renault had gone too aggressive, but as it turned out - McLaren simply didn't have a Monza spec aero package, Renault did.  Let's see what the next few races bring.



#4672 CPR

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 11:41

 Only that ... this types of performance trends suffers when the peak is not high enough... am not trying to diminish its presence on the track tho,...

I am really looking forward to see what 2020 would look a like for McLaren,...  :up:

 

How competitive McLaren will be next year will be interesting for sure. Going by Seidl's comments, we could roughly say that they hope to make as big a net gain next year as this did this year. That would be impressive to me. It would also suggest that there was a lot more "low hanging fruit" on the development tree than I had expected at the beginning of the year. They have made a few comments recently about how the MCL34 was a bit rushed - they could only start the development once they fully understood the problems with the MCL33, which happened very late going by the normal development timelines.

 

Talking of normal development timelines, from the few hints have been dropped, I get the feeling that it's roughly something like this:

12-18 months prior to launch: a small team looking at a variety of very theoretical models / car concepts

9-12 months prior to launch: based on winter testing and early season results of the current car, the various possible concepts are refined down to a single solution and the core properties of the car are finalised (things like suspension geometry, chassis dimensions, cooling layout)

6-9 months prior to launch: development starts to shift to the new car, starting with the bigger (longer R&D duration) components. They might run some early prototypes in Friday testing based on this.

3-6 months prior to launch: all R&D focused on new car and major components (eg chassis) would be in production

0-3 months prior to launch: initial development completed and only production and testing remains. R&D shifts to early season upgrades

 

So for the MCL34, they couldn't really do this due to the problems with the MCL33 - until they properly understood the problem it wasn't practical to commit to the design of the MCL34 because they had to be sure that they weren't repeating the problem. In short, the MCL34 is something of a "rush job" by normal development standards.



#4673 Sebastien007

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 15:01

Singapore preview

 

https://www.mclaren....ore-gp-preview/



#4674 Mc_Silver

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 15:06

I'm expecting more competitive McLaren in Singapore. Let's hope we will have another solid result like in Hungary.

#4675 Lerdes

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 16:01

I hope the team will be back on track! I would like to see how the gap in points will increase and Cyril will bite his ass. The car is clearly better than the Renaults and I hope they (Renault) stay fair til the end of the season.


Edited by Lerdes, 17 September 2019 - 16:04.


#4676 CPR

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 16:57

I'm not so bothered about how things go vs Renault. I'm still looking for the team to be able to achieve a clean weekend. The closest we've had is in Hungary, which was smooth apart from Lando's pit stop IIRC.



#4677 kumo7

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 01:21

I hope top see no operational mistakes this time.

TO win the 4th, everything should be 100%. 

 

Having said that, I am optimistic to see McLaren performer better than the last two races,



#4678 kumo7

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 01:23

I'm not so bothered about how things go vs Renault. I'm still looking for the team to be able to achieve a clean weekend. The closest we've had is in Hungary, which was smooth apart from Lando's pit stop IIRC.

 

Well it is Renault making noise about beating McLaren.

So far McLaren played a good part in keeping this obvious competition is a elegant manner.

I hope the team wil maintain the good competition, obviously, backed with superior results with the competitor.



#4679 IamFasterthanU

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 06:11

I think Racing Point from Singapore onwards would be in the mix for 6-10th positions. Their updates almost always seem to work and another big update in Singapore means finishing 4th wouldn't be that easy. One bad weekend would cost either of the teams 10-15 points  and thus with 7 races to go, the race for 4th is still pretty open.



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#4680 loki0420

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 09:12

Apart from issues these last 2 races we had pace to score 18 points at least and Renault would score less in Belgium because of that as well. So it'll be that ~40 points as before. No worries about pace but about reliability and operations. If its straightforward weekends with reliable car and no botched pit-stops 4th will be easily achievable.



#4681 Sebastien007

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 09:26

We can not forget in Singapore there is high chance of a safety car, let's hope for some good luck and that it could be at a good moment for mclaren.



#4682 CPR

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 12:13

Well it is Renault making noise about beating McLaren.

So far McLaren played a good part in keeping this obvious competition is a elegant manner.

I hope the team wil maintain the good competition, obviously, backed with superior results with the competitor.

 

I was keen to see McLaren vs Renault earlier in the season, but it's worked out in a weird way. We've almost never been fighting over the same piece of tarmac. So it's not really in individual races where there's much direct competition between the two teams. There's been some exceptions for sure but the competition has been more at the championship level than the race level.

 

Anyway, I wonder if Singapore will be more like Monaco or more like Hungary in terms of our relative performance. The track is more like Monaco but I think things have changed a bit since then.

 

 

I think Racing Point from Singapore onwards would be in the mix for 6-10th positions. Their updates almost always seem to work and another big update in Singapore means finishing 4th wouldn't be that easy. One bad weekend would cost either of the teams 10-15 points  and thus with 7 races to go, the race for 4th is still pretty open.

 

Maybe but their previous upgrade promised a lot and I don't remember it quite living up to the hype longer term.

 

 

Apart from issues these last 2 races we had pace to score 18 points at least and Renault would score less in Belgium because of that as well. So it'll be that ~40 points as before. No worries about pace but about reliability and operations. If its straightforward weekends with reliable car and no botched pit-stops 4th will be easily achievable.

 

This is why I want to see a clean weekend more - we've lost way more points due to various issues (reliability, pit-stop problems, on-track problems) than what could be gained/lost by a few tenths in performance. That being said, that's somewhat par for the course when it's very close - if we were in no-mans land then the main focus would be on reliability/consistency.

 

 

We can not forget in Singapore there is high chance of a safety car, let's hope for some good luck and that it could be at a good moment for mclaren.

  

Yup. And the under-cut tends to be powerful too. So you want to pit early... but that means a safety car is more likely to screw you over. For the first stint, I hope they push hard if possible and try to build up a margin. Obviously if they're stuck behind other cars they'll want to pit early though.



#4683 Muz Bee

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 22:52

Singapore tends to be an opportunist's track, especially for those outside the leading group. It can throw up some interesting results and coming off two "unlucky" races McLaren need to eliminate risk and ensure both cars are available to get maximum running time in all sessions, AND, for both to finish in the points. Given the consistency of the package and the consistency of both drivers I think Singapore has the potential to provide the best haul of constructors points for the MCL34. All going well....

 

Sainz and Norris to utilise the MCL's fantastic grip off the line, stay out of lap 1 trouble will be the first box to tick.

The strategists to be imaging a safety car at every moment of the race and what their response will be, tick box 2.

Protect track position at all times - subject to minimising risk of (above) safety car happening, tick box 3.

Come away with Sainz up to P6 in WDC, Norris in the points, and increased lead over Renault in WCC, box 4.

Reduce the gap to 3rd fastest car at Singapore (probably Ferrari) to show there's a future against the top dogs in 2020, box 5.



#4684 kumo7

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 02:05

Singar looks like to me, in simple way, a track full of 90 degree corners plus huge kerbs. 

Kinda punishing in all aspects, the straight is simple line so the car accelerates with not too much of stress, but braking and herb at the apex punishes the car,...

wonder if this killing apex does have special demands on car's mechanical character.. 



#4685 Owen

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 11:48

#AMuS McLaren has a smaller new update package. "The change on the floor can be seen with the naked eye, the rest is hidden," says team boss Andreas Seidl.



#4686 CPR

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 12:01

#AMuS McLaren has a smaller new update package. "The change on the floor can be seen with the naked eye, the rest is hidden," says team boss Andreas Seidl.

 

McLaren keeping their cards close to their chest, as usual. I looked around to see if there were any images but not found any...



#4687 Quickshifter

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 12:59

Mclaren will be sporting more mechanical changes under the skin by the looks of things. Singapore is a low speed high downforce track where mechanical grip and the ability to make the tyres work will be critical. I hope Mclaren will finally have clean weekend as they have already thrown away plenty of points due to one issue or another, outside of car performance so far this season. Top teams excel at maximizing everything, every little detail and that is what Mclaren must aim to do.

#4688 pup

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 13:08

#AMuS McLaren has a smaller new update package. "The change on the floor can be seen with the naked eye, the rest is hidden," says team boss Andreas Seidl.

Personally, I hope that the rest is hidden back at the factory, waiting to go on next year's car.



#4689 Oblivion

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 13:32

Personally, I hope that the rest is hidden back at the factory, waiting to go on next year's car.

 

Why hide something if it can be used for the present car? Or, at least, tested



#4690 rootten

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 13:59

Personally, I hope that the rest is hidden back at the factory, waiting to go on next year's car.

what’s all that about next year? are McLaren going to close in on Mercedes challenging for the title? Ferrari? Red Bull?

 

the best they can hope for is to be 4th best team next year
 

why wouldn’t they challenge the 4th this year already they have it within reach 



#4691 NixxxoN

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 14:04

Lets see if Renault dont play dirty with the engines to get 4th.... I fear a bit for that



#4692 mclarensmps

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 14:45

I doubt it. The team isn't run by Flavio anymore. 



#4693 pup

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 14:54

Why hide something if it can be used for the present car? Or, at least, tested

You've taken my comment too literally.



#4694 Lerdes

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 16:59

Lets see if Renault dont play dirty with the engines to get 4th.... I fear a bit for that

 

You're not alone. Me too!



#4695 NixxxoN

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 19:30

I doubt it. The team isn't run by Flavio anymore. 

As if Flavio wasn't the only one playing dirty out there



#4696 kumo7

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 02:42

As if Flavio wasn't the only one playing dirty out there

 

:up:

 

After Ghosn  Renault head will not fee great if the company to become known by cheating, I assume, so it will not be an obvious acts...



#4697 cbbcisace

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 06:43

Certain rumours saying McLaren will pick up the Orlen sponsorship from Williams to replace Petrobras

Edited by cbbcisace, 20 September 2019 - 06:43.


#4698 bogi

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 07:21

Can we stop Renault conspiracy nonsense please.



#4699 NixxxoN

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 07:36

:up:

 

After Ghosn  Renault head will not fee great if the company to become known by cheating, I assume, so it will not be an obvious acts...

Also not only at Renault



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#4700 kumo7

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 09:01

Can we stop Renault conspiracy nonsense please.

 

Renault comments to another thread, pls.

I was stating my thoughts on the fairness of Renault!