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2019 F1 Media Driver Ratings


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#1651 Ivanhoe

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 08:24

He made a mistake on the SC restart with a lock up in the last turn, luckily he only had a McLaren behind him. For some reason he was doing some crazy warmup after Lewis had bolted and locked up when sweeping back onto the racing line, seemed unnecessary.


Cold tyres probably, he was on a harder compound. To be clear, I don’t think Max should be rated higher, just saying his race is a bit hard to rate given the (lack of) competitiveness of the Red Bull (slower than Merc and Ferrari but way faster than the midfield) and having a rookie team mate who just stepped into the car. You’ll never get higher than eights in such position.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 03 October 2019 - 08:29.


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#1652 Requiem84

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 08:44

Albon cannot be higher than Verstappen...

#1653 shure

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 11:30

Hard to rate and score big points if you’re driving in no mans land. You get obligatory 7’s or 8’s if you make no obvious mistakes.

sure, but Sainz was equally in no mans land and got the highest score so I'm wondering what he did that they thought was so special and why Max was judged to have under-performed, relatively speaking.  He finished as high as he could reasonably expect to given the car he had

 

Just trying to understand the scoring criteria s they don't seem balanced to me



#1654 NixxxoN

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 11:38

sure, but Sainz was equally in no mans land and got the highest score so I'm wondering what he did that they thought was so special and why Max was judged to have under-performed, relatively speaking.  He finished as high as he could reasonably expect to given the car he had
 
Just trying to understand the scoring criteria s they don't seem balanced to me

Max made a poor start and he had a much better car.
Sainz made an excellent start
Also take in count past performances, Max has won in that RB, McLaren's best result is 5th

#1655 shure

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 11:51

Max made a poor start and he had a much better car.
Sainz made an excellent start
Also take in count past performances, Max has won in that RB, McLaren's best result is 5th

Past performances shouldn't count for current races.  The cars are different and there's no suggestion AFAIAA that Max actually drove poorly.  Max has struggled with the start more often than not lately - this seems to be a Honda issue (I'm sure it was touched on a few weeks ago).  I don't think a start should count for a difference of 47 points vs 39.  

 

Both Max and Sainz effectively drove around in circles for the most part (although correct me if I'm wrong but I think Max did a couple of overtakes).  Neither did much wrong as far as I can see but neither did much different from the other, either.  To me it just illustrates that there's not a lot of science that goes into these rankings but they are driven by emotion more than anything else.  Sainz gets bonus points because they are happy to see a McLaren looking competitive in the midfield, while Max gets downgraded because they didn't see any miracles being performed against much faster cars.  The criteria don't appear to be equal and the actual driving performance isn't what is being judged, which makes the rest of the judging also suspect



#1656 NixxxoN

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 12:00

Past performances shouldn't count for current races.  The cars are different and there's no suggestion AFAIAA that Max actually drove poorly.  Max has struggled with the start more often than not lately - this seems to be a Honda issue (I'm sure it was touched on a few weeks ago).  I don't think a start should count for a difference of 47 points vs 39.  
 
Both Max and Sainz effectively drove around in circles for the most part (although correct me if I'm wrong but I think Max did a couple of overtakes).  Neither did much wrong as far as I can see but neither did much different from the other, either.  To me it just illustrates that there's not a lot of science that goes into these rankings but they are driven by emotion more than anything else.  Sainz gets bonus points because they are happy to see a McLaren looking competitive in the midfield, while Max gets downgraded because they didn't see any miracles being performed against much faster cars.  The criteria don't appear to be equal and the actual driving performance isn't what is being judged, which makes the rest of the judging also suspect

Of course they count and rightfully so. They are a benchmark for what drivers can do with their current 2019 car.
Maybe with a better start max would've probably got into the podium fight, who knows

#1657 Lights

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 12:15

Of course they count and rightfully so. They are a benchmark for what drivers can do with their current 2019 car.
Maybe with a better start max would've probably got into the podium fight, who knows

Who knows? Everyone does because they can just look at the laptimes. Max was never going to be in the podium fight, even with a better start.

#1658 shure

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 12:23

Of course they count and rightfully so. They are a benchmark for what drivers can do with their current 2019 car.
Maybe with a better start max would've probably got into the podium fight, who knows

I disagree.  Car performance fluctuates and just because Max may have run well elsewhere doesn't automatically mean he will run well in Sochi.  It's extremely doubtful Max could have gotten into the podium fight.  Outside the SC period he had exactly two laps all race where he was quicker than Bottas, who most generally agree was the biggest under-performer in the top teams, so there's no justification for believing that Max could have done any better than he did.  His car didn't have the pace to fight in Sochi



#1659 Requiem84

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 12:25

Max made a poor start and he had a much better car.
Sainz made an excellent start
Also take in count past performances, Max has won in that RB, McLaren's best result is 5th

 

Out of the 4 honda powered cars, has there even been 1 great start all season?

 

RB has been either really bad of the line, or mediocre (aka Hungary). There is some underlying starting issue. 

 

I don't mind scoring Verstappen lowish in Sochi, as it didn't look anything special. But it's really stupid to score him lower than Albon. 



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#1660 NixxxoN

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 12:27

Who knows? Everyone does because they can just look at the laptimes. Max was never going to be in the podium fight, even with a better start.

 
 

I disagree.  Car performance fluctuates and just because Max may have run well elsewhere doesn't automatically mean he will run well in Sochi.  It's extremely doubtful Max could have gotten into the podium fight.  Outside the SC period he had exactly two laps all race where he was quicker than Bottas, who most generally agree was the biggest under-performer in the top teams, so there's no justification for believing that Max could have done any better than he did.  His car didn't have the pace to fight in Sochi

Maybe he was just not very fast then?
He's never done very well in Russia

#1661 shure

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 12:30

 
 
Maybe he was just not very fast then?
He's never done very well in Russia

How are you judging that?  He was faster than his team mate and everybody else outside the top two teams.  How are you judging that Sainz was fast and Max wasn't?  I don't understand how you can be so confident about separating the two



#1662 NixxxoN

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 12:41

How are you judging that?  He was faster than his team mate and everybody else outside the top two teams.  How are you judging that Sainz was fast and Max wasn't?  I don't understand how you can be so confident about separating the two

And why you think its the car's fault? You seem to be equally confident about that. Albon has been driving this car for just 4 races, its very obvious that Max is going to be much quicker.

#1663 shure

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 13:12

And why you think its the car's fault? You seem to be equally confident about that. Albon has been driving this car for just 4 races, its very obvious that Max is going to be much quicker.

The point is what evidence is there that he was getting less out of his car than Sainz was?  By any objective measure there wasn't much to separate them.  Both beat their team mates, both ran largely uncontested for much of the race, and both achieved the maximum it was reasonable to expect they would achieve.  So what evidence is being used to rate them so differently?



#1664 Requiem84

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 13:13

And why you think its the car's fault? You seem to be equally confident about that. Albon has been driving this car for just 4 races, its very obvious that Max is going to be much quicker.

 

Verstappen declassified Ricciardo last year in Sochi. 

 

He overtook Sainz, so he drove faster right? ;).

 

I know this is of course nonsense, but just shows your argument doesn't make any sense either. 



#1665 NixxxoN

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 13:17

The point is what evidence is there that he was getting less out of his car than Sainz was?  By any objective measure there wasn't much to separate them.  Both beat their team mates, both ran largely uncontested for much of the race, and both achieved the maximum it was reasonable to expect they would achieve.  So what evidence is being used to rate them so differently?

Verstappen declassified Ricciardo last year in Sochi. 
 
He overtook Sainz, so he drove faster right?  ;).
 
I know this is of course nonsense, but just shows your argument doesn't make any sense either.

Again I'm poiting out the big difference in pace compared to other races, Max had amazing pace in some races and here he was quite far.
I dont know if its the car or max or a bit of both, but that is always going to impact on those ratings like it or not.
If next race Ferrari are clearly behind both mercs they will get a low rating aswell
On the other hand Sainz never ever in all the season were better than 4th fastest car, and they have been very consistent in being 4th best and again they were in Russia, so that matters.

Edited by NixxxoN, 03 October 2019 - 13:17.


#1666 Requiem84

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 13:30

Again I'm poiting out the big difference in pace compared to other races, Max had amazing pace in some races and here he was quite far.
I dont know if its the car or max or a bit of both, but that is always going to impact on those ratings like it or not.
If next race Ferrari are clearly behind both mercs they will get a low rating aswell
On the other hand Sainz never ever in all the season were better than 4th fastest car, and they have been very consistent in being 4th best and again they were in Russia, so that matters.


His pace gap to Albon was pretty similar to earlier races imo.

#1667 shure

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 13:37

Again I'm poiting out the big difference in pace compared to other races, Max had amazing pace in some races and here he was quite far.
I dont know if its the car or max or a bit of both, but that is always going to impact on those ratings like it or not.
If next race Ferrari are clearly behind both mercs they will get a low rating aswell
On the other hand Sainz never ever in all the season were better than 4th fastest car, and they have been very consistent in being 4th best and again they were in Russia, so that matters.

Which is flawed criteria.  How do we know Max's pace wasn't amazing in this race?  His average lap time was some half a second faster than Albon's.  Even when Albon was chasing down Sainz he couldn't match Max, such was his pace.  And how on earth are we making the assumption that even that's not good enough and it should have been more?

 

If the ratings are based on blind assumptions on what the car is capable of based on previous races then why did Hamilton get the second best score since it's obvious the Merc is comfortably the best race car so he just finished where he was supposed to?  It certainly doesn't seem as though consistent criteria are being applied.



#1668 NixxxoN

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 14:01

Which is flawed criteria.  How do we know Max's pace wasn't amazing in this race?  His average lap time was some half a second faster than Albon's.  Even when Albon was chasing down Sainz he couldn't match Max, such was his pace.  And how on earth are we making the assumption that even that's not good enough and it should have been more?
 
If the ratings are based on blind assumptions on what the car is capable of based on previous races then why did Hamilton get the second best score since it's obvious the Merc is comfortably the best race car so he just finished where he was supposed to?  It certainly doesn't seem as though consistent criteria are being applied.

You nave important difficulty understanding stuff dont you?
Yes in part all those rankings are not exact science and are based on assupmtions in some degree because we can never compare all drivers on the same car.
Also Albon started from the pitlane and was almost all the race until the few last laps behind someone and overtaking people. Max was in clean air for most of the race, hardly a fair comparision that.

Edited by NixxxoN, 03 October 2019 - 14:04.


#1669 Lights

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 14:05

Also Albon started from the pitlane and was almost all the race until the few last laps behind someone and overtaking people. Max was in clean air for most of the race, hardly a fair comparision that.


Was his own fault he started at the back.

#1670 shure

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 14:05

You nave important difficulty understanding stuff dont you?
Yes in part all those rankings are not exact science and are based on assupmtions in some degree because we can never compare all drivers on the same car.

I'm asking pretty straightforward questions, tbh.  It seems you have difficulty answering them?

 

I've just pointed out that according to your own logic two ratings appear to contradict each other, but your answer is simply to say I have trouble understanding?  Seems to me you don't understand it much, either.



#1671 SenorSjon

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 14:10

Was his own fault he started at the back.

 

True, he binned his own qualifying.



#1672 NixxxoN

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 14:10

Was his own fault he started at the back.

Yep, so what. Still not a good comparison for race pace.

I'm asking pretty straightforward questions, tbh.  It seems you have difficulty answering them?
 
I've just pointed out that according to your own logic two ratings appear to contradict each other, but your answer is simply to say I have trouble understanding?  Seems to me you don't understand it much, either.

Everything has been said already and you go round in circles.

Edited by NixxxoN, 03 October 2019 - 14:10.


#1673 shure

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 14:15

Yep, so what. Still not a good comparison for race pace.

Everything has been said already and you go round in circles.

well it really hasn't because what you're doing now is avoiding answering the question.  But that's fine if you don't want to or can't answer, no problem.  We can leave it there



#1674 NixxxoN

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 14:16

well it really hasn't because what you're doing now is avoiding answering the question.  But that's fine if you don't want to or can't answer, no problem.  We can leave it there

I did answer already, maybe you can read or understand properly

#1675 Calorus

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 17:05

You really believe they agreed to swap places in lap x turn y regardless of the race development?

 

They did swap positions in the best way for Ferrari because Vettel was faster , if Leclerc was quicker they would swap them during the first stint, its really not rocket science.

 

BTW that "agreement" was basically Ferrari saying we want to finish 1st Leclerc, 2nd Vettel, clearly payback for Singapore.

 

I think that implies that you really don't watch F1; Sochi effect on following cars is really clear: you gain from a tow in Sector 1, you are devastated by traffic in Sector 3. That's why there were precisely zero overtakes amongst the RBRs, Ferraris or Mercs.



#1676 Requiem84

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 18:07

Yep, so what. Still not a good comparison for race pace.

Everything has been said already and you go round in circles.


You wabt a good race pace comparison?

Check this thread:
https://forums.autos...9/#entry8910238

It shows Albon was roughly 0,5 slower than Verstappen in Sochi. This analysis takes into account when a driver was in clear air or not...

#1677 Calorus

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 19:33

You wabt a good race pace comparison?

Check this thread:
https://forums.autos...9/#entry8910238

It shows Albon was roughly 0,5 slower than Verstappen in Sochi. This analysis takes into account when a driver was in clear air or not...

 

I ADORE Moreland's analysis, however you need only look at Monza to see its limitations, crowning Verstappen as being faster than Leclerc, and places Bottas 0.5s faster than Hamilton.

Because, just as with anyone else, it's extremely hard to compensate for tyre wear, tyre managment, turbulence, engine protection and fuel levels.


Edited by Calorus, 03 October 2019 - 19:34.


#1678 NixxxoN

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 19:54

You wabt a good race pace comparison?

Check this thread:
https://forums.autos...9/#entry8910238

It shows Albon was roughly 0,5 slower than Verstappen in Sochi. This analysis takes into account when a driver was in clear air or not...

Being down behind other cars and having to overtake them creates a lasting effect on tires.
The only way to properly compare race pace between team mates is that they start in consecutive positions

#1679 Requiem84

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 20:05

Being down behind other cars and having to overtake them creates a lasting effect on tires.
The only way to properly compare race pace between team mates is that they start in consecutive positions


So we cant compare team mates, but we are comparing drivers in different teams?

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#1680 SonGoku

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 20:12

Power Rankings

https://www.formula1...jzwY3c2jzm.html

Whoever wrote this should be fired.


What a joke. Hamilton probably cares the least about this, it's all about the title. I doubt he even knows that it exists.

#1681 NixxxoN

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 20:24

So we cant compare team mates, but we are comparing drivers in different teams?

Wtf...

#1682 Atreiu

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 20:44

lol Autosport marked Vettel down for insubordination  :rotfl:

 

I can see it getting extremely cringeworthy once the media puts all their eggs in Leclerc's basket.

 

TV Globo is already milking him hard (as they'd do to any Ferrari driver in the absence of competitive brazilians).



#1683 Requiem84

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Posted 04 October 2019 - 05:45

Wtf...


My thoughts when I read your posts in this topic.

#1684 abc

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Posted 04 October 2019 - 09:19

I think that implies that you really don't watch F1; Sochi effect on following cars is really clear: you gain from a tow in Sector 1, you are devastated by traffic in Sector 3. That's why there were precisely zero overtakes amongst the RBRs, Ferraris or Mercs.

Yeah but why did you quote my post exactly?



#1685 Calorus

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Posted 04 October 2019 - 10:55

Yeah but why did you quote my post exactly?

 

You said "if Leclerc was quicker they would swap them during the first stint" but since you lose time from 3 or 4 seconds back and cannot pass on track, unless you are massively faster in Sector 3, you won't exert any pressure, even down to turn 1.

In clear air Leclerc would probably have retained his qualy advantage, but that's nowhere near enough to make a pass at Sochi - there is no evidence that Vettel was faster than Leclerc, just that he was in front.


Edited by Calorus, 04 October 2019 - 11:00.


#1686 abc

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Posted 04 October 2019 - 16:49

You said "if Leclerc was quicker they would swap them during the first stint" but since you lose time from 3 or 4 seconds back and cannot pass on track, unless you are massively faster in Sector 3, you won't exert any pressure, even down to turn 1.

In clear air Leclerc would probably have retained his qualy advantage, but that's nowhere near enough to make a pass at Sochi - there is no evidence that Vettel was faster than Leclerc, just that he was in front.

Thinking that Leclerc would be faster (even by 0,4 sec./lap) in the first stint is hilarious in itself.

Suggesting I dont watch F1 because I dont share your view of this is hilarious and cheeky.

Picking me up on this eventhough 99% of people acknoledge that Vettel had slightly better pace is peculiar.  :drunk:



#1687 milestone 11

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 22:56

sOK6GE8.png

From Autosport.
Interesting where Autosport readers are relative to the Autosport team.
Readers' ratings after Russian GP
POS DRIVER RATING CHANGE
1 Lewis Hamilton 8.28 -
2 Max Verstappen 8.12 -
3 Carlos Sainz Jr 8.01 -
4 Charles Leclerc 7.90 -
5 Lando Norris 7.69 -
6 George Russell 7.50 -
7 Alex Albon 7.40 -
8 Valtteri Bottas 7.28 -
9 Daniil Kvyat 7.24 -
10 Sergio Perez 7.04 Up 3
11 Nico Hulkenberg 7.00 Up 1
12 Kimi Raikkonen 6.99 Down 2
13 Daniel Ricciardo 6.98 Down 2
14 Sebastian Vettel 6.57 -
15 Kevin Magnussen 6.42 -
16 Antonio Giovinazzi 6.06 -
17 Romain Grosjean 5.81 -
18 Pierre Gasly 5.66 Up 1
19 Lance Stroll 5.60 Up 1
20 Robert Kubica 5.55 Down 2

Edited by milestone 11, 10 October 2019 - 22:59.


#1688 Marklar

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 07:36

AMuS

Valtteri Bottas: 10/10
Sebastian Vettel: 9/10
Lewis Hamilton: 8/10
Alexander Albon: 9/10
Carlos Sainz: 9/10
Daniel Ricciardo: 9/10
Charles Leclerc: 7/10
Pierre Gasly: 8/10
Sergio Perez: 7/10
Nico Hülkenberg: 8/10
Lance Stroll: 6/10
Daniil Kvyat: 6/10
Lando Norris: 7/10
Kimi Räikkönen: 5/10
Romain Grosjean: 6/10
Antonio Giovinazzi: 5/10
Kevin Magnussen: 5/10
George Russell: 6/10
Robert Kubica: 5/10
Max Verstappen: 7/10

#1689 Ivanhoe

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 07:37

Albon a 9? Okay...

#1690 bibliophagos

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 07:47

Leclerc and Max both a 7. 

 

Besides all the other things wrong in this rating, this just destroys any credibility of this week's ranking by AMuS. Did they even watch the race?



#1691 screamingV16

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 08:09

Vettel a 9? Was it a technical issue that caused him to mess up his start?



#1692 alonstar

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 08:24

Do they really know that Albon is with Redbull and Gasly with Toro Rosso ?

#1693 Heyli

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 08:27

AMuS

Valtteri Bottas: 10/10
Sebastian Vettel: 9/10
Lewis Hamilton: 8/10
Alexander Albon: 9/10
Carlos Sainz: 9/10
Daniel Ricciardo: 9/10
Charles Leclerc: 7/10
Pierre Gasly: 8/10
Sergio Perez: 7/10
Nico Hülkenberg: 8/10
Lance Stroll: 6/10
Daniil Kvyat: 6/10
Lando Norris: 7/10
Kimi Räikkönen: 5/10
Romain Grosjean: 6/10
Antonio Giovinazzi: 5/10
Kevin Magnussen: 5/10
George Russell: 6/10
Robert Kubica: 5/10
Max Verstappen: 7/10

Leclerc a 7... That´s a "better than average" mark... And looking further down the midfield, they rate him a lot higher than almost half of the field?

 

The 9´s for Vettel and Albon also seem a bit rich.



#1694 Lights

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 08:38

Leclerc a 7... That´s a "better than average" mark... And looking further down the midfield, they rate him a lot higher than almost half of the field?

 

The 9´s for Vettel and Albon also seem a bit rich.

 

AMuS has always had a strong belief that the best drivers are by default in the best cars and that the end result speaks volumes. They adjust their ratings to match this. It's generally the publication with the worst rating out of the sacred trinity.



#1695 shure

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 08:40

Leclerc a 7... That´s a "better than average" mark... And looking further down the midfield, they rate him a lot higher than almost half of the field?

 

The 9´s for Vettel and Albon also seem a bit rich.

It';s arguable that but for one small error at the start Vettel drove a pretty good race and got the maximum his car was able to deliver.  Personally I'd give him an 8 or so.  Albon also recovered quite well from his start and I guess it depends on whether you view his overtake on Norris as clumsy or inspired.  I do think 9 is a bit strong considering he couldn't take Sainz on track but needed a pit stop to do it, despite being in the quicker car.  Otherwise a reasonably strong drive.  Not sure I'd give Bottas a 10 for basically driving around.



#1696 statman

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 09:09

PlanetF1:
 
Sainz: 10
Bottas: 9
Ricciardo: 9
Vettel: 8
Hamilton: 8
Albon: 7
Gasly: 7
Hulkenberg: 7
Stroll: 7
Norris: 7
Russell: 6
Kvyat: 6
Perez: 6
Raikkonen: 6
Grosjean: 6
Magnussen: 6
Kubica: 6
Giovinazzi: 5
Leclerc: 5


#1697 SenorSjon

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 09:30

Albon is never a 9. That bar is at floor level for him. The same with Sainz who is getting 9's and 10's with the clear 4th best car.

 

@statman Verstappen no rating?



#1698 JeePee

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 09:38

@statman Verstappen no rating?

Like it should. His qualifying was a 7. His first corner a 10. Who know's what he could have done in the race without Leclerc's brainfart. If he'd finished on the podium in front of Lewis it would be raining 10s and 9s as well.



#1699 statman

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 09:47

@senorsjon: no, no rating.

 

 

crash.net:
 
Sainz: 10
Bottas: 9
Gasly: 9
Vettel: 8
Ricciardo: 8
Russell: 7
Albon: 7
Perez: 7
Hamilton: 7
Verstappen: 6
Hulkenberg: 6
Grosjean: 6
Norris: 6
Stroll: 6
Raikkonen: 5
Giovinazzi: 5
Kvyat: 5
Magnussen: 5
Leclerc: 5
Kubica: 4


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#1700 CSF

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 11:20

Leclerc a 7. Holy batman.