1190 replies to this topic

[danmills]

Worst part if Haas leave is they're not exactly a team that can sell up easily. I'd imagine Haas would keep the HQ for other US motorsports as a new team couldn't use a US base unless they themselves were of the same mould.

Which makes worrying waves if Renault are on the same path.

3 car teams are coming.

[BlindZenDriver]

Worst part if Haas leave is they're not exactly a team that can sell up easily. I'd imagine Haas would keep the HQ for other US motorsports as a new team couldn't use a US base unless they themselves were of the same mould.

Which makes worrying waves if Renault are on the same path.

3 car teams are coming.

 

Much of Haas based in the UK and Italy, so selling up would perhaps not be so difficult. Also they do not have nearly as much production as many of the other teams meaning a possible new owner will not be taking that on, on the other hand the question then becomes is there something worth buying if they in 2020 decide not to bother with 2021 and newer really build a car for the new rules.

 

As for Renault I can also see them pulling out, in fact I wonder how much they are committed to 2020. Most likely they are bound by F1 contracts, so them pulling out would be costly only staying in is also costly  if they have no real success.

 

Interesting times - only one wonders if that is good or bad.

[Amphicar]

Much of Haas based in the UK and Italy, so selling up would perhaps not be so difficult. Also they do not have nearly as much production as many of the other teams meaning a possible new owner will not be taking that on, on the other hand the question then becomes is there something worth buying if they in 2020 decide not to bother with 2021 and newer really build a car for the new rules.

 

As for Renault I can also see them pulling out, in fact I wonder how much they are committed to 2020. Most likely they are bound by F1 contracts, so them pulling out would be costly only staying in is also costly  if they have no real success.

 

Interesting times - only one wonders if that is good or bad.

 

The current (7th) Concorde agreement only runs up to December 2020: https://www.fia.com/...corde-agreement Negotiations to replace the 2013 agreement began as part of wider discussions over the sport in 2017 but no deal has been reached despite the deadline being extended until 31 October 2019. So as things currently stand, Renault could walk away from F1 at the end of next year without any financial penalty.

[BlindZenDriver]

 

The current (7th) Concorde agreement only runs up to December 2020: https://www.fia.com/...corde-agreement Negotiations to replace the 2013 agreement began as part of wider discussions over the sport in 2017 but no deal has been reached despite the deadline being extended until 31 October 2019. So as things currently stand, Renault could walk away from F1 at the end of next year without any financial penalty.

 

 

Agree, what I am wondering is if Renault would to leave earlier than the 2021 season.

All speculation on my part, since I have no inside info only one has to wonder that if Renault is only supplying them self and results aren't getting any better then why even do whole of 2020. I can see them starting and if things aren't good then after a few months know knows.

 

Now debating what Renault will do is OT in this thread, only I wonder if they leave then what will it do for Haas. For one it would likely not make the selling of the Haas team easier since there might be more teams on sale than possible buyers, then on the other hand it might make more lucrative for Haas to run since less competition should mean scoring more points = more money.

Edited by BlindZenDriver, 10 November 2019 - 19:16.

[Nathan]

Worst part if Haas leave is they're not exactly a team that can sell up easily. I'd imagine Haas would keep the HQ for other US motorsports as a new team couldn't use a US base unless they themselves were of the same mould.

Which makes worrying waves if Renault are on the same path.
 

Haas has a relatively easy path to winding down.  Most of what they do is contract/lease based and their non-contracted workforce is literally a fraction of any other team.  They haven't invested tens of millions into F1 specific equipment.  It's also the easiest team to sell because it's overhead is so low.  Comparatively, look at Enstone with 676 employees, a wind tunnel, full design and manufacturing departments, sim rigs etc. etc..

[loki]

The only thing Haas has of value in F1 is the entry.  What equipment they do have which is primarily race operation can be auctioned off.  Since anyone worthy of buying Haas would have the money to enter F1 anyway the entry isn’t going to get them much.

[KWSN - DSM]

The only thing Haas has of value in F1 is the entry.  What equipment they do have which is primarily race operation can be auctioned off.  Since anyone worthy of buying Haas would have the money to enter F1 anyway the entry isn’t going to get them much.

 

Haas give anyone the cheapest way to enter the sport, buy it and follow the Haas concept of buying listed parts. They have a base, they have offices at the Dallara factory, they have access to the Ferrari wind-tunnel, if anyone wants to enter the sport Haas is the one to go after over the various huge manufacturer entities with about 500 too many on their payroll.

 

[loki]

Haas give anyone the cheapest way to enter the sport, buy it and follow the Haas concept of buying listed parts. They have a base, they have offices at the Dallara factory, they have access to the Ferrari wind-tunnel, if anyone wants to enter the sport Haas is the one to go after over the various huge manufacturer entities with about 500 too many on their payroll.

 

Only if Ferrari wish to continue the relationship with whomever buys it and can strike a deal with Dallara.  Any new entrant wouldn’t need Haas to do either of those when they could approach the contractors themselves.  The listed parts model doesn’t give Haas any sort of value on a sale.  The upside on the model was lower barrier to entry for Haas and lower operating costs.  Those survive any Haas withdrawal as Haas does not control those for an entrant wishing to come in and do the same.

[KWSN - DSM]

Only if Ferrari wish to continue the relationship with whomever buys it and can strike a deal with Dallara.  Any new entrant wouldn’t need Haas to do either of those when they could approach the contractors themselves.  The listed parts model doesn’t give Haas any sort of value on a sale.  The upside on the model was lower barrier to entry for Haas and lower operating costs.  Those survive any Haas withdrawal as Haas does not control those for an entrant wishing to come in and do the same.

 

Then let me rephrase, my view is that Haas would be the better way for a new entrant to enter F1.

 

[loki]

Then let me rephrase, my view is that Haas would be the better way for a new entrant to enter F1.

 

I think it’s pretty much the only way it can be done now to get up to speed in a short time (if at all) short of buying something turnkey like Stroll did.  The naysayers like to point at how Haas struggle now but that’s not specific to the business model.  Look at Williams and McLaren prior to this season.  Even seasoned teams with all their own facilities have rough spots that can last a couple years or longer.  If you miss the first iteration of the design it’s near impossible to recover given the pace of development.  I hope he stays.

[theflyingwheel]

I believe Haas needs to do a full restructure of the team, from the top replacing the team boss who should be more focused on running the team and getting legit sponsors rather than being a Netflix star to the engineers who one season build the strongest car of the midfield and the next a car that struggles with the tires all the way down to the drivers getting new exiting youngsters or drivers that get more and deliver more rather than the current lineup who feels kinda stuck, I remember back in the day when Haas joined the grid we all were exited with the results how promising the team looked and how it’s new shiny driver Grosjean felt so motivated and totally dominated Gutierrez nowadays everything in the teams feels grey, lack of motivation, uninspired this team has showed in 2018 that they can deliver the best car of the midfield at least and we are talking about a serious enterprise which for the sake of F1 should remain, with better management more investment on the engineering side and new drivers.

Edited by theflyingwheel, 11 November 2019 - 03:59.

[ARTGP]

I don't see why Haas didn't take a chance on an American driver. Newgarden or whoever could do no worse than Grosjean who bins at some point practically every weekend.

[loki]

I don't see why Haas didn't take a chance on an American driver. Newgarden or whoever could do no worse than Grosjean who bins at some point practically every weekend.

Newgarden wouldn’t have qualified for a Superlicense at the time.  He’s not about to leave Penske now for some short lived F1 career when he’ll be able to get another 10 years in Indycar.   The kids over here can see that unless you get in one of the top couple of teams they’ll be grist for the mill.   They’ve already given up on O’Ward and Herta isn’t likely to go either.  Rossi same as Newgarden, Askew doesn’t have a Superlicense, RHR is too old, Rahal couldn’t compete and Marco is well, Marco.  I think most of the kids over here see it as an expensive long shot to a short career when they could have better opportunities in other series.

 

The business model for the race team is to sell machine tools outside of the US.  A US driver won’t matter for that goal.  It would likely perk up some interest here in the states for F1 but it won’t help Haas sell more tools here. 

[Montie]

I believe Haas needs to do a full restructure of the team, from the top replacing the team boss who should be more focused on running the team and getting legit sponsors rather than being a Netflix star to the engineers who one season build the strongest car of the midfield and the next a car that struggles with the tires all the way down to the drivers getting new exiting youngsters or drivers that get more and deliver more rather than the current lineup who feels kinda stuck, I remember back in the day when Haas joined the grid we all were exited with the results how promising the team looked and how it’s new shiny driver Grosjean felt so motivated and totally dominated Gutierrez nowadays everything in the teams feels grey, lack of motivation, uninspired this team has showed in 2018 that they can deliver the best car of the midfield at least and we are talking about a serious enterprise which for the sake of F1 should remain, with better management more investment on the engineering side and new drivers.

No surprises there.

[scheivlak]

Newgarden wouldn’t have qualified for a Superlicense at the time.  He’s not about to leave Penske now for some short lived F1 career when he’ll be able to get another 10 years in Indycar.   The kids over here can see that unless you get in one of the top couple of teams they’ll be grist for the mill.   They’ve already given up on O’Ward and Herta isn’t likely to go either.  Rossi same as Newgarden, Askew doesn’t have a Superlicense, RHR is too old, Rahal couldn’t compete and Marco is well, Marco.  I think most of the kids over here see it as an expensive long shot to a short career when they could have better opportunities in other series.

 

The business model for the race team is to sell machine tools outside of the US.  A US driver won’t matter for that goal.  It would likely perk up some interest here in the states for F1 but it won’t help Haas sell more tools here. 

Both Newgarden and Rossi have more than enough SL points by now. 

 

Whether a US driver will or won't matter doesn't matter  

Choosing a better driver than the current ones and scoring more points will.

[MikeTekRacing]

 

Choosing a better driver than the current ones and scoring more points will.

focusing on improving the car then looking for better drivers is the way to go.

[MikeTekRacing]

I believe Haas needs to do a full restructure of the team, from the top replacing the team boss who should be more focused on running the team and getting legit sponsors rather than being a Netflix star to the engineers who one season build the strongest car of the midfield and the next a car that struggles with the tires all the way down to the drivers getting new exiting youngsters or drivers that get more and deliver more rather than the current lineup who feels kinda stuck, I remember back in the day when Haas joined the grid we all were exited with the results how promising the team looked and how it’s new shiny driver Grosjean felt so motivated and totally dominated Gutierrez nowadays everything in the teams feels grey, lack of motivation, uninspired this team has showed in 2018 that they can deliver the best car of the midfield at least and we are talking about a serious enterprise which for the sake of F1 should remain, with better management more investment on the engineering side and new drivers.

they need to understand why the car looks hopeless. Not sure if a big bang restructure is what they need, we can make guesses. But before all, they need to understand why they are so helpless most of the times on the tyres.

[Montie]

The drivers need the tool to perform before looking at the drivers. It’s pretty obvious the car is holding them back.

[loki]

Both Newgarden and Rossi have more than enough SL points by now. 

 

Whether a US driver will or won't matter doesn't matter

Choosing a better driver than the current ones and scoring more points will.

The context of the to which I replied was why didn’t they pick US drivers, not why didn’t they pick drivers other than what they have now.  

[Montie]

Both Newgarden and Rossi have more than enough SL points by now.

Whether a US driver will or won't matter doesn't matter
Choosing a better driver than the current ones and scoring more points will.

It’s not the drivers fault the car is slow. Magnussen was very capable of scoring points last season.

[BlindZenDriver]

A few comments KMag has given in response to commentators questions today. Not verbatim, but from memory:

• A special reason he wasn't as fast as Grosjean in Q3, he just really nailed it and KMag did not.
• Good to have both cars in Q3 (Grosjean also said something similar).
• Not sure they will be able to hold positions tomorrow. It will be warmer which will make it more difficult.
• They have tried to make the car less hard on the rears sacrificing a little bit of qually speed. Not sure if that is something they changed between Q2 and Q3, but it did sound a bit like it being the case. Also not sure if it was on both cars of if KMag meant just his.

Bottom line. KMag did not sound to optimistic about tomorrow. He said something along the lines that he would rather be slow on Saturday and then have a good car on Sunday.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Yeah, I think we can all safely assume both Haas cars will go backwards again today, like in so many other races this year where they started in the top ten.

[theflyingwheel]

In the f1 analysis says that the car is extremely strong in qualifying but not so good in race pace, I would like to see the team to stay in the top 10 but is very much expected they will go backwards.

[search]

yeah, especially the now high temperatures are likely to hurt them. I'd be surprised if they manage to beat anyone but the Williams in the end

[SonGoku]

What a frustrating season and car for them. Even more frustrating than just building a crap car. They have to change it up for next season.

[ensign14]

If there is a next season...

 

Gene Haas reconsidering future in F1

[Heyli]

If there is a next season...

 

Gene Haas reconsidering future in F1

There is. He is considering beyond 2020.

[Montie]

If there is a next season...

Gene Haas reconsidering future in F1

So is Red Bull, Ferrari, Renault etc every year.

[f1rules]

lol because they had decent pace in brazil steiner believe they could have been best of rest, he is getting more and more annoying to listen to, first it was the tires which turned out it was actually an aero problem, suck it up steiner, honeymoon for Haas is over and it will be consierable more difficult from now on

[BlindZenDriver]

lol because they had decent pace in brazil steiner believe they could have been best of rest, he is getting more and more annoying to listen to, first it was the tires which turned out it was actually an aero problem, suck it up steiner, honeymoon for Haas is over and it will be consierable more difficult from now on

 

Dude, it is Christmas - try finding that positive thinking.

Steiner is right - when you look at where the Haas cars was, what happened and how small the margins was the ultimately decided things. Did you actually watch the race including the timing data and track the pit stops, from your writing I bet you didn't so go back and take a good look.

[Nathan]

Seems to me the issue is more on the engineering side than the Netflix side.  Last years hero is this years zero.

[KongKurs]

Wow, what a long season this has been for the Haas F1 Team, for many reasons.

 

I really hope they come out stronger in 2020, they were so great in 2018, even without the many lost points of Australia. 

 

Here's hoping for a great 2020.

[BalanceUT]

Haas has a new sponsor, one with some history in F1 and is a legitimate ongoing enterprise, Mindmaze. 

 

https://www.haasf1te...as-f1-team-2020

[RSRally]

If Gene does decide to sell up I wonder whether that guy who was sniffing around Force India before Stroll bought it might be interested still? Some kind of soft drinks firm, big beard, gift of the gab??

[ATM]

Oh yeah, I remember that guy; wasn’t he from Monster Energy?

[Paco]

If Haas did go up for sale, there be multiple offers easily..

[FLB]

Günther Steiner was seen at the Rolex 24 hanging around his friend Nelson Cosgrove (Mazda).

 

Looking for a place to land in the IMSA paddock, perhaps?

[jcbc3]

Haas has a new sponsor, one with some history in F1 and is a legitimate ongoing enterprise, Mindmaze. 

 

https://www.haasf1te...as-f1-team-2020

 

I very much want this to be 'good', but the running around F1 with DanRic and McLaren and now this, doesn't bode well, imho.

[loki]

I very much want this to be 'good', but the running around F1 with DanRic and McLaren and now this, doesn't bode well, imho.

Mindmaze is an established company in their field.  My guess would be it’s a B2B thing where they use the technology internally and as a promotional activity.  For example bringing docs and other medical pros to the race as an activation.  The company has a background in medical treatments for neurological impairments.   They are the real deal.  FWIW it’s a Swiss company.

[HeadFirst]

Mindmaze is an established company in their field.  My guess would be it’s a B2B thing where they use the technology internally and as a promotional activity.  For example bringing docs and other medical pros to the race as an activation.  The company has a background in medical treatments for neurological impairments.   They are the real deal.  FWIW it’s a Swiss company.

 

Perhaps the perfect fix for what ails Grosjean.

[loki]

Perhaps the perfect fix for what ails Grosjean.

LOL.  That’s what I was thinking too.  When he’s about to make a bonehead move Steiner could override it from the pit wall...