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Haas F1 2019: The Grosjean and Magnussen Never Ending Tour, and other stories from Kannapolis/Banbury


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#51 jonpollak

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Posted 03 April 2019 - 03:57

For your consideration.

Jp

 



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#52 Widefoot2

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Posted 03 April 2019 - 07:26

Mag's engineer could be his dad...



#53 Sterzo

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Posted 03 April 2019 - 11:29

I continue to struggle with the dislike of the Haas drivers, I can not come up with any US drivers who would do better, then one I would like to see there next to Magnussen would be Rossi.

 

:cool:

It would be different if the people who rubbish Grosjean and/or Magnussen were to come up with alternative drivers, citing the evidence of their past performance to show why they should be considered.

 

As for putting drivers into a team just because of their nationality, that's rarely worked out well.



#54 paulb

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Posted 03 April 2019 - 11:55

For your consideration.

Jp

 

What an interesting and informative interview. Thanks Jp!



#55 PistolPete

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 17:14

So did Grosjean overtake Magnussen during the VSC or not?



#56 jgrwill

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 18:20

So did Grosjean overtake Magnussen during the VSC or not?



Doesn’t Really matter, they need to focus on their tires and race pace.

Crazy how they with no problems can place the car in Q3 and then when they fill the tank they struggle.

#57 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 18:35

Yeah, car has no racepace at all, in contrary to last season. Strange.

#58 jcbc3

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 19:30

So did Grosjean overtake Magnussen during the VSC or not?


Pretty certain he did. Magnussen wouldn't throw that out if he hadn't seen the dash board light before being overtaken. However, the team could never admit that, as it would leave Grosjean open to a reprimand/penalty point. So, they told Magnussen to shush up. In the end it didn't matter as no points were lost because of it.

#59 HeadFirst

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 20:51

These two are pretty evenly matched, and exciting to watch. Not always exciting in a good way though.



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#60 Lights

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 09:57

So did Grosjean overtake Magnussen during the VSC or not?

 

 

Pretty certain he did. Magnussen wouldn't throw that out if he hadn't seen the dash board light before being overtaken. However, the team could never admit that, as it would leave Grosjean open to a reprimand/penalty point. So, they told Magnussen to shush up. In the end it didn't matter as no points were lost because of it.

 

According to the TV graphic, Grosjean passed him like 1 second before the VSC was announced. There might have been some delay in the VSC announcement on TV compared to on the steering wheel, but then again I can also imagine there is some delay in the TV graphic of them swapping positions. Additionally I assume the stewards should have noticed had cars swapped in the timings after the VSC had started. Let's just say I hope their system registers stuff like that. 

 

So all in all I'd say fair play to Grosjean.



#61 jcbc3

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 10:44

It's the end result that count. So no matter the in-between calculations, Grosjean ended in a higher place than Kevin. 1-0

#62 ARTGP

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 03:21

Considering that Haas run the Ferrari SF90 suspension, could this be the origin of the tire temperature issues? Not getting the tires up to temp when they are fully fueled.



#63 StanBarrett2

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 09:05

Considering that Haas run the Ferrari SF90 suspension, could this be the origin of the tire temperature issues? Not getting the tires up to temp when they are fully fueled.

Balance ?  weight distribution ?...the suspension may be Ferrari,  what the suspension is attached to ...the tub is a different design and built by a third party, Dallara.

It'll mostly be due to the front, as the rear is almost complete Ferrari....PU/ transmission and all to the hubs .


Edited by StanBarrett2, 17 April 2019 - 09:05.


#64 ARTGP

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 14:52

Balance ?  weight distribution ?...the suspension may be Ferrari,  what the suspension is attached to ...the tub is a different design and built by a third party, Dallara.

It'll mostly be due to the front, as the rear is almost complete Ferrari....PU/ transmission and all to the hubs .

 

I woudn't be surprised to find that weight distribution is similar to Ferrari.

 

You are right, it could be related to the aero balance. What's fast on the simulator may not be taking into consideration how the Pirelli tires work.

 

I think the reason they can manage it over 1 lap, is because the drivers can be quite aggressive warming the tires on warmup laps in qualy. This is something it doesn't make sense to do in a race condition.

 

Then start trying to driver 10 or 12 smooth laps to conserve the tires, and suddenly they can't maintain temp.


Edited by ARTGP, 17 April 2019 - 14:52.


#65 messy

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 16:58

Bit worried about Haas this year to be honest, completely taking aside the driver's head to head.

Car seems to be ok over a single lap, but completely fading over a race distance. With big improvements from McLaren, Alfa, Renault etc I'm not thinking they're going to be amassing nearly as many points this season. Still think that whatever the 'help' from Ferrari, their pace (on their good tracks, allowing for the car being quite inconsistent) in 2018 was highly impressive. Don't seem to have that this year anywhere yet.

#66 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 18:56

Bit worried about Haas this year to be honest, completely taking aside the driver's head to head.

Car seems to be ok over a single lap, but completely fading over a race distance. With big improvements from McLaren, Alfa, Renault etc I'm not thinking they're going to be amassing nearly as many points this season. Still think that whatever the 'help' from Ferrari, their pace (on their good tracks, allowing for the car being quite inconsistent) in 2018 was highly impressive. Don't seem to have that this year anywhere yet.

 

They are not getting and 'help' from Ferrari.

 

:cool:



#67 messy

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 19:37

...aside from buying loads of parts from them and using their windtunnel, anyway.

#68 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 19:47

...aside from buying loads of parts from them and using their windtunnel, anyway.

 

Exactly they are buying services not getting 'help'. 

 

Countless other teams have used the Toyota and Sauber tunnels, bought parts from other teams - are they also getting 'help'?

 

:cool:



#69 StanBarrett2

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 20:48

...aside from buying loads of parts from them and using their windtunnel, anyway.

Haas have their own windtunnel 'Windshear' , and Dallara have something as well ...... so ???



#70 BlindZenDriver

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 21:45

Haas have their own windtunnel 'Windshear' , and Dallara have something as well ...... so ???

Not so sure Haas is using their own wind tunnel much for their F1 development, remember it is the US and the Haas F1 team is really based in the UK. Then again I could be wrong only it would mean a lot extra flying which would be both time consuming and costly.

 

However what really matters is that Haas does their own aero, part of those aero bits are of course very much dictated by the mechanical bits so this then mean naturally some shapes will be close to Ferraris. Other parts again will be inspired by what other teams does and some will be thought up by Haas them self.



#71 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 22:39

Not so sure Haas is using their own wind tunnel much for their F1 development, remember it is the US and the Haas F1 team is really based in the UK. Then again I could be wrong only it would mean a lot extra flying which would be both time consuming and costly.

 

However what really matters is that Haas does their own aero, part of those aero bits are of course very much dictated by the mechanical bits so this then mean naturally some shapes will be close to Ferraris. Other parts again will be inspired by what other teams does and some will be thought up by Haas them self.

 

You can replace Haas with Racing Point, Toro Rosso, McLaren, Williams, Alfa Romeo in that statement and be equally correct and wrong.

 

:cool:



#72 StanBarrett2

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 22:41

As if they need the actual F1 car in the tunnel ?

BTW data transfer by internet is pretty speedy in case you never noticed ? You don't need to fly for that


Edited by StanBarrett2, 17 April 2019 - 22:43.


#73 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 23:08

As if they need the actual F1 car in the tunnel ?

BTW data transfer by internet is pretty speedy in case you never noticed ? You don't need to fly for that

 

Not sure I ever commented about data transfer, most teams work of scale models.

 

:cool:



#74 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 23:10

Here is a full scale wind tunnel to ponder...

 

https://www.racecar-...of-laurel-hill/

 

:cool:



#75 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 23:10

Here is a full scale wind tunnel to ponder...

 

https://www.racecar-...of-laurel-hill/

 

:cool:



#76 StanBarrett2

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 23:17

Not sure I ever commented about data transfer, most teams work of scale models.

 

:cool:

You didn't, BlindZen hinted at flying F1 cars around to test in wind tunnels



#77 loki

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 00:14

Haas have their own windtunnel 'Windshear' , and Dallara have something as well ...... so ???

 

 

Not so sure Haas is using their own wind tunnel much for their F1 development, remember it is the US and the Haas F1 team is really based in the UK. Then again I could be wrong only it would mean a lot extra flying which would be both time consuming and costly.

 

Last that was public was that Haas used the Ferrari tunnels.  It was such a big deal after they started doing it the FIA went over to make sure they weren't sharing resources.  They gave them a clean bill of health, so to speak.  Like everyone else they use models.  Early on there were reports that some of the model parts were made in Kannapolis but the design, assembly and testing is done in Italy.  Gene Haas is part of the Windshear ownership but they don't use them for Haas F1.  Other than distance the issue is they only have a full sized rolling bed tunnel (that's pretty much booked all the time) and it's not best suited to test with a model.  There was talk of Windshear building a model sized tunnel a few years back but AFAIK they haven't done anything.



#78 messy

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 07:31

So people are up in arms over the use of the word 'help' because it's paid for, yeah?

Ok, go on, doesn't strike me as worth splitting hairs over really but hey. :)

#79 Pete_f1

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 11:55

I can see Mr Haas getting board of F1 quite quickly.

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#80 BlindZenDriver

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 12:22

As if they need the actual F1 car in the tunnel ?

BTW data transfer by internet is pretty speedy in case you never noticed ? You don't need to fly for that

 

As loki also mentioned the Haas tunnel has a rolling road and I do not think it is suited for scale models, so yes you would need a car not that you'd fly a car back and forth if doing a year round development project - then instead you'd have a car at site and "just" fly over the new parts.

 

So they would need a car and they would need the parts they want to test, so those parts would have to be made somewhere and since we aren't talking of the shelf bits it would be even more expensive to make duplicates than to fly parts to testing and then out again for track use.

 

However why are we even debating this. The whole point is that Haas and not Ferrari does the aero for the Haas cars, if not they would be in violation with the rules and the FIA has checked that over (and I am sure they keep doing so).



#81 BlindZenDriver

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 12:26

I can see Mr Haas getting board of F1 quite quickly.

 

He has been involved in racing for years so he knows that it is not all success. The big question is if he is in F1 as a business or out of love, if it pure business he will looking at spreadsheets and projections and let the numbers determine what to do, if, and this is what I suspect, is more in F1 for love then I should think he will stick around for some time.



#82 boomn

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 15:29

He has been involved in racing for years so he knows that it is not all success. The big question is if he is in F1 as a business or out of love, if it pure business he will looking at spreadsheets and projections and let the numbers determine what to do, if, and this is what I suspect, is more in F1 for love then I should think he will stick around for some time.

I don't doubt that Gene loves racing and may love F1 itself, but what he has said publicly is a lot more business focused.  I don't mean this to belittle his involvement or interest in F1 though.  

 

"Here’s how Haas explains it: “Most of the sales in the world are going to be overseas in the next four or five years, and my basic goal here is to change Haas Automation from just a machine tool builder into a premium brand. I think Formula 1 will provide that, especially in the overseas markets. There are a lot of fans from China to South America to Europe to Eastern Europe, to the Asian, Japan, Malaysia, that we really want to become a household name in.”"

 

Or what one of his Nascar drivers said about him:

“The Haas Automation brand is, to me, what his passion is, and he sees his ability to create a stronger footprint globally,” Busch said. “F1 is a footprint to advertise in, and to create your brand’s name in motorsports, you do it with F1. There’s no other ranking higher.”



#83 loki

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 17:32

F1 windtunnel work is limited by regs to no more than a 60% scale model tested at 50km/sec.  Even if they had a car to use and shipped parts it's not allowed to use a full size car.



#84 BlindZenDriver

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 14:19

Next race coming up. Fingers crossed Haas has found a way to solve their race pace issue.

I really look forward to seeing how KMag can do in Baku if he gets to race a full race without issues (as opposes to prior Baku races). I think his style of driving may bring something great.



#85 jcbc3

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 17:02

Steiner isn't optimistic :-(

https://www.autospor...intment-in-baku

#86 Pete_f1

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 17:13

I do wish they and Force... Racing Point would have a good jump in performance.

#87 Wingcommander

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 14:21

Not a single point after Magnussen's 6th place in Melbourne. What are they doing?



#88 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 15:56

They can’t make the tyres work for some reason. Barcelona should be a better track for them though, warmer conditions and they were fast in pre season at Barcelona.

#89 sniper80

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 16:06

Rich Energy money didn't bring any performance... most disappointing start of a season for Haas so far.



#90 Montie

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 16:47

It’s amazing that the engineers can not figure out how to work with the tires.

#91 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 20:19

It’s amazing that the engineers can not figure out how to work with the tires.

 

Must be more to it than that, somewhere in the car a design tweak not doing what it should, or rather doing the opposite.

 

:cool:



#92 motohead

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Posted 29 April 2019 - 06:01

Is it fair to say?



Qualifying:

Grosjean 1 - 3 Magnussen



Race:

Magnussen 3 - 1 Grosjean



Points:

Magnussen 8 - 0 Grosjean

#93 BlindZenDriver

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Posted 29 April 2019 - 07:05

This is depressing. At least Haas isn't the only team that struggle as Renault seems to be in the same boat + they also have other issues including needing a reversing camera.

 

Only upside I can see it that unlike some other teams, with Haas there is no driver shaming going on so they aren't making excuses they are fighting to find a fix.



#94 Galoredk

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 16:58

Great race from Kmag. Too bad Grosjean couldn’t control his temper after being overtaken and wasted his tyres on fighting full on for 2-3 laps, instead of accepting he’d been out smarted and held on to 8th.

Good to see the tire issue seems better.

#95 PistolPete

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 17:28

Grosjean bumped into Magnussen and Sainz and I guess he should consider him lucky not to take out his teammate and ending up completing the race. Looks like he tilted completely after being overtaken.



#96 Laniakea

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 17:47

Solid week'end from both riders.

P7 and P8 quali with merely 0.011 seconds difference so it could be a boy or a girl who took what spot and Grosjean did have all these new parts for way longer time in the long practice-sessions in fp1 and fp2 while Magnussen also got them in the shorter fp3 so with that in mind and less time and only 0.011s... yeah boy or a girl so solid quali-result from both and clearly best of the rest..

In the racetrim Grosjean impressed me, as he is useally not that solid in the race but today, delivered a very solid race, until the last 10 laps.

He should have setled that Magnussen had way more momentum in the restart and almost took Gasly in those first corners, even though he likely wouldnt have been able to keep Gasly behind him to finish.

Magnussen also got the message from the his pitwall just seconds before the restart stating that his tires was in perfect temp for grip.

 

If I should grade the two Haas drivers with the whole week'end in  mind, it will be around 8.5/10 for both.. if it had been Gro p7 and Mag p8 I would have scored Grosjean higher then Magnussen as the weekend from Grosjean was otherwise very solid... just a shame that Grosjean lost it after Magnussen took him in the first corner of the restart and tumbled an otherwise solid p8 (4p).

and the hit with Saniz was quite hard and luck of a draw that it didnt resulted in a puncture for one or the other..

but never the less' great racing  the last 10 laps. and some of the highlight for me in Spain F1.


Edited by Laniakea, 12 May 2019 - 17:50.


#97 motohead

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 18:11

Status after today:

 

Qualifying:
Grosjean 2 - 3 Magnussen



Race:
Magnussen 4 - 1 Grosjean 



Points:
Magnussen 14 - 1 Grosjean 



#98 motohead

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 18:17

My 5 cents on the race: 

 

Grosjean actually drove a very sold race today I think, but was not good enough at the re-start. I understand him wanting to try to overtake Magnussen, but trying cost him a few points. But I don't think he should be blamed for trying. However, if they'd crashed over that second battle I would say firmly said that it would have been down to Grosjean, who should have backed out of the attempt.

t

Magnussen like last season keeps on taking all chances and points that present themselves. Very impressed by this trait he has developed. 



#99 Lights

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 19:08

Grosjean had the measure of Magnussen the entire weekend, all up until that SC restart. He completely blew it. Unnecessary contact with Magnussen after the position was already lost, then too aggressive on turn-in with Sainz, and all the while he hurt his own car so that Kvyat could also sail by.

 

It's getting typical, Grosjean is often quicker than Magnussen but Magnussen is the better racer while Grosjean just keeps shooting himself in the foot.



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#100 DeKnyff

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 20:51

Solid week'end from both riders.

 

Grosjean actually drove a very solid race today I think,

 

He made strong contact twice (once against his team mate), took the scape route three times and finished 10th with clearly the 4th best car, four positions behind his teammate and lost valuable points for his team. I don't think this is specially "solid".