Jump to content


Photo
* * * * - 3 votes

Haas F1 2019: The Grosjean and Magnussen Never Ending Tour, and other stories from Kannapolis/Banbury


  • Please log in to reply
1181 replies to this topic

#1151 danmills

danmills
  • Member

  • 1,301 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 10 November 2019 - 15:45

Worst part if Haas leave is they're not exactly a team that can sell up easily. I'd imagine Haas would keep the HQ for other US motorsports as a new team couldn't use a US base unless they themselves were of the same mould.

Which makes worrying waves if Renault are on the same path.

3 car teams are coming.

Advertisement

#1152 BlindZenDriver

BlindZenDriver
  • Member

  • 164 posts
  • Joined: May 18

Posted 10 November 2019 - 16:48

Worst part if Haas leave is they're not exactly a team that can sell up easily. I'd imagine Haas would keep the HQ for other US motorsports as a new team couldn't use a US base unless they themselves were of the same mould.

Which makes worrying waves if Renault are on the same path.

3 car teams are coming.

 

Much of Haas based in the UK and Italy, so selling up would perhaps not be so difficult. Also they do not have nearly as much production as many of the other teams meaning a possible new owner will not be taking that on, on the other hand the question then becomes is there something worth buying if they in 2020 decide not to bother with 2021 and newer really build a car for the new rules.

 

As for Renault I can also see them pulling out, in fact I wonder how much they are committed to 2020. Most likely they are bound by F1 contracts, so them pulling out would be costly only staying in is also costly  if they have no real success.

 

Interesting times - only one wonders if that is good or bad.



#1153 Amphicar

Amphicar
  • Member

  • 2,374 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 10 November 2019 - 18:47

Much of Haas based in the UK and Italy, so selling up would perhaps not be so difficult. Also they do not have nearly as much production as many of the other teams meaning a possible new owner will not be taking that on, on the other hand the question then becomes is there something worth buying if they in 2020 decide not to bother with 2021 and newer really build a car for the new rules.

 

As for Renault I can also see them pulling out, in fact I wonder how much they are committed to 2020. Most likely they are bound by F1 contracts, so them pulling out would be costly only staying in is also costly  if they have no real success.

 

Interesting times - only one wonders if that is good or bad.

 

The current (7th) Concorde agreement only runs up to December 2020: https://www.fia.com/...corde-agreement Negotiations to replace the 2013 agreement began as part of wider discussions over the sport in 2017 but no deal has been reached despite the deadline being extended until 31 October 2019. So as things currently stand, Renault could walk away from F1 at the end of next year without any financial penalty.


#1154 BlindZenDriver

BlindZenDriver
  • Member

  • 164 posts
  • Joined: May 18

Posted 10 November 2019 - 19:13

 

The current (7th) Concorde agreement only runs up to December 2020: https://www.fia.com/...corde-agreement Negotiations to replace the 2013 agreement began as part of wider discussions over the sport in 2017 but no deal has been reached despite the deadline being extended until 31 October 2019. So as things currently stand, Renault could walk away from F1 at the end of next year without any financial penalty.

 

 

Agree, what I am wondering is if Renault would to leave earlier than the 2021 season.

All speculation on my part, since I have no inside info only one has to wonder that if Renault is only supplying them self and results aren't getting any better then why even do whole of 2020. I can see them starting and if things aren't good then after a few months know knows.

 

Now debating what Renault will do is OT in this thread, only I wonder if they leave then what will it do for Haas. For one it would likely not make the selling of the Haas team easier since there might be more teams on sale than possible buyers, then on the other hand it might make more lucrative for Haas to run since less competition should mean scoring more points = more money.


Edited by BlindZenDriver, 10 November 2019 - 19:16.


#1155 Nathan

Nathan
  • Member

  • 5,024 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 10 November 2019 - 19:22

Worst part if Haas leave is they're not exactly a team that can sell up easily. I'd imagine Haas would keep the HQ for other US motorsports as a new team couldn't use a US base unless they themselves were of the same mould.

Which makes worrying waves if Renault are on the same path.
 

Haas has a relatively easy path to winding down.  Most of what they do is contract/lease based and their non-contracted workforce is literally a fraction of any other team.  They haven't invested tens of millions into F1 specific equipment.  It's also the easiest team to sell because it's overhead is so low.  Comparatively, look at Enstone with 676 employees, a wind tunnel, full design and manufacturing departments, sim rigs etc. etc..



#1156 loki

loki
  • Member

  • 6,028 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 10 November 2019 - 21:47

The only thing Haas has of value in F1 is the entry.  What equipment they do have which is primarily race operation can be auctioned off.  Since anyone worthy of buying Haas would have the money to enter F1 anyway the entry isn’t going to get them much.



#1157 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 21,038 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 10 November 2019 - 22:08

The only thing Haas has of value in F1 is the entry.  What equipment they do have which is primarily race operation can be auctioned off.  Since anyone worthy of buying Haas would have the money to enter F1 anyway the entry isn’t going to get them much.

 

Haas give anyone the cheapest way to enter the sport, buy it and follow the Haas concept of buying listed parts. They have a base, they have offices at the Dallara factory, they have access to the Ferrari wind-tunnel, if anyone wants to enter the sport Haas is the one to go after over the various huge manufacturer entities with about 500 too many on their payroll.

 

:cool:



#1158 loki

loki
  • Member

  • 6,028 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 11 November 2019 - 00:55

Haas give anyone the cheapest way to enter the sport, buy it and follow the Haas concept of buying listed parts. They have a base, they have offices at the Dallara factory, they have access to the Ferrari wind-tunnel, if anyone wants to enter the sport Haas is the one to go after over the various huge manufacturer entities with about 500 too many on their payroll.

 

:cool:

Only if Ferrari wish to continue the relationship with whomever buys it and can strike a deal with Dallara.  Any new entrant wouldn’t need Haas to do either of those when they could approach the contractors themselves.  The listed parts model doesn’t give Haas any sort of value on a sale.  The upside on the model was lower barrier to entry for Haas and lower operating costs.  Those survive any Haas withdrawal as Haas does not control those for an entrant wishing to come in and do the same.



#1159 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 21,038 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 11 November 2019 - 02:01

Only if Ferrari wish to continue the relationship with whomever buys it and can strike a deal with Dallara.  Any new entrant wouldn’t need Haas to do either of those when they could approach the contractors themselves.  The listed parts model doesn’t give Haas any sort of value on a sale.  The upside on the model was lower barrier to entry for Haas and lower operating costs.  Those survive any Haas withdrawal as Haas does not control those for an entrant wishing to come in and do the same.

 

Then let me rephrase, my view is that Haas would be the better way for a new entrant to enter F1.

 

:cool:



Advertisement

#1160 loki

loki
  • Member

  • 6,028 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 11 November 2019 - 02:49

Then let me rephrase, my view is that Haas would be the better way for a new entrant to enter F1.

 

:cool:

I think it’s pretty much the only way it can be done now to get up to speed in a short time (if at all) short of buying something turnkey like Stroll did.  The naysayers like to point at how Haas struggle now but that’s not specific to the business model.  Look at Williams and McLaren prior to this season.  Even seasoned teams with all their own facilities have rough spots that can last a couple years or longer.  If you miss the first iteration of the design it’s near impossible to recover given the pace of development.  I hope he stays.



#1161 theflyingwheel

theflyingwheel
  • Member

  • 797 posts
  • Joined: February 18

Posted 11 November 2019 - 03:57

I believe Haas needs to do a full restructure of the team, from the top replacing the team boss who should be more focused on running the team and getting legit sponsors rather than being a Netflix star to the engineers who one season build the strongest car of the midfield and the next a car that struggles with the tires all the way down to the drivers getting new exiting youngsters or drivers that get more and deliver more rather than the current lineup who feels kinda stuck, I remember back in the day when Haas joined the grid we all were exited with the results how promising the team looked and how it’s new shiny driver Grosjean felt so motivated and totally dominated Gutierrez nowadays everything in the teams feels grey, lack of motivation, uninspired this team has showed in 2018 that they can deliver the best car of the midfield at least and we are talking about a serious enterprise which for the sake of F1 should remain, with better management more investment on the engineering side and new drivers.

Edited by theflyingwheel, 11 November 2019 - 03:59.


#1162 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 1,826 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 11 November 2019 - 04:02

I don't see why Haas didn't take a chance on an American driver. Newgarden or whoever could do no worse than Grosjean who bins at some point practically every weekend.



#1163 loki

loki
  • Member

  • 6,028 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 11 November 2019 - 06:45

I don't see why Haas didn't take a chance on an American driver. Newgarden or whoever could do no worse than Grosjean who bins at some point practically every weekend.

Newgarden wouldn’t have qualified for a Superlicense at the time.  He’s not about to leave Penske now for some short lived F1 career when he’ll be able to get another 10 years in Indycar.   The kids over here can see that unless you get in one of the top couple of teams they’ll be grist for the mill.   They’ve already given up on O’Ward and Herta isn’t likely to go either.  Rossi same as Newgarden, Askew doesn’t have a Superlicense, RHR is too old, Rahal couldn’t compete and Marco is well, Marco.  I think most of the kids over here see it as an expensive long shot to a short career when they could have better opportunities in other series.

 

The business model for the race team is to sell machine tools outside of the US.  A US driver won’t matter for that goal.  It would likely perk up some interest here in the states for F1 but it won’t help Haas sell more tools here. 



#1164 Montie

Montie
  • Member

  • 1,274 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 11 November 2019 - 15:47

I believe Haas needs to do a full restructure of the team, from the top replacing the team boss who should be more focused on running the team and getting legit sponsors rather than being a Netflix star to the engineers who one season build the strongest car of the midfield and the next a car that struggles with the tires all the way down to the drivers getting new exiting youngsters or drivers that get more and deliver more rather than the current lineup who feels kinda stuck, I remember back in the day when Haas joined the grid we all were exited with the results how promising the team looked and how it’s new shiny driver Grosjean felt so motivated and totally dominated Gutierrez nowadays everything in the teams feels grey, lack of motivation, uninspired this team has showed in 2018 that they can deliver the best car of the midfield at least and we are talking about a serious enterprise which for the sake of F1 should remain, with better management more investment on the engineering side and new drivers.


No surprises there.

#1165 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 15,182 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 11 November 2019 - 21:21

Newgarden wouldn’t have qualified for a Superlicense at the time.  He’s not about to leave Penske now for some short lived F1 career when he’ll be able to get another 10 years in Indycar.   The kids over here can see that unless you get in one of the top couple of teams they’ll be grist for the mill.   They’ve already given up on O’Ward and Herta isn’t likely to go either.  Rossi same as Newgarden, Askew doesn’t have a Superlicense, RHR is too old, Rahal couldn’t compete and Marco is well, Marco.  I think most of the kids over here see it as an expensive long shot to a short career when they could have better opportunities in other series.

 

The business model for the race team is to sell machine tools outside of the US.  A US driver won’t matter for that goal.  It would likely perk up some interest here in the states for F1 but it won’t help Haas sell more tools here. 

Both Newgarden and Rossi have more than enough SL points by now. 

 

Whether a US driver will or won't matter doesn't matter  ;) 

Choosing a better driver than the current ones and scoring more points will.



#1166 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 6,501 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 12 November 2019 - 10:24

 

Choosing a better driver than the current ones and scoring more points will.

focusing on improving the car then looking for better drivers is the way to go.



#1167 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 6,501 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 12 November 2019 - 10:26

I believe Haas needs to do a full restructure of the team, from the top replacing the team boss who should be more focused on running the team and getting legit sponsors rather than being a Netflix star to the engineers who one season build the strongest car of the midfield and the next a car that struggles with the tires all the way down to the drivers getting new exiting youngsters or drivers that get more and deliver more rather than the current lineup who feels kinda stuck, I remember back in the day when Haas joined the grid we all were exited with the results how promising the team looked and how it’s new shiny driver Grosjean felt so motivated and totally dominated Gutierrez nowadays everything in the teams feels grey, lack of motivation, uninspired this team has showed in 2018 that they can deliver the best car of the midfield at least and we are talking about a serious enterprise which for the sake of F1 should remain, with better management more investment on the engineering side and new drivers.

they need to understand why the car looks hopeless. Not sure if a big bang restructure is what they need, we can make guesses. But before all, they need to understand why they are so helpless most of the times on the tyres.



#1168 Montie

Montie
  • Member

  • 1,274 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 12 November 2019 - 11:19

The drivers need the tool to perform before looking at the drivers. It’s pretty obvious the car is holding them back.

#1169 loki

loki
  • Member

  • 6,028 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 14 November 2019 - 06:24

Both Newgarden and Rossi have more than enough SL points by now. 

 

Whether a US driver will or won't matter doesn't matter  ;)

Choosing a better driver than the current ones and scoring more points will.

The context of the to which I replied was why didn’t they pick US drivers, not why didn’t they pick drivers other than what they have now.  



#1170 Montie

Montie
  • Member

  • 1,274 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 14 November 2019 - 11:17

Both Newgarden and Rossi have more than enough SL points by now.

Whether a US driver will or won't matter doesn't matter  ;)
Choosing a better driver than the current ones and scoring more points will.


It’s not the drivers fault the car is slow. Magnussen was very capable of scoring points last season.

#1171 BlindZenDriver

BlindZenDriver
  • Member

  • 164 posts
  • Joined: May 18

Posted 16 November 2019 - 23:05

A few comments KMag has given in response to commentators questions today. Not verbatim, but from memory:

  • A special reason he wasn't as fast as Grosjean in Q3, he just really nailed it and KMag did not.
  • Good to have both cars in Q3 (Grosjean also said something similar).
  • Not sure they will be able to hold positions tomorrow. It will be warmer which will make it more difficult.
  • They have tried to make the car less hard on the rears sacrificing a little bit of qually speed. Not sure if that is something they changed between Q2 and Q3, but it did sound a bit like it being the case. Also not sure if it was on both cars of if KMag meant just his.

Bottom line. KMag did not sound to optimistic about tomorrow. He said something along the lines that he would rather be slow on Saturday and then have a good car on Sunday.



#1172 DutchQuicksilver

DutchQuicksilver
  • Member

  • 4,815 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 17 November 2019 - 10:52

Yeah, I think we can all safely assume both Haas cars will go backwards again today, like in so many other races this year where they started in the top ten.

#1173 theflyingwheel

theflyingwheel
  • Member

  • 797 posts
  • Joined: February 18

Posted 17 November 2019 - 13:33

In the f1 analysis says that the car is extremely strong in qualifying but not so good in race pace, I would like to see the team to stay in the top 10 but is very much expected they will go backwards.

#1174 search

search
  • Member

  • 442 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 17 November 2019 - 14:25

yeah, especially the now high temperatures are likely to hurt them. I'd be surprised if they manage to beat anyone but the Williams in the end



#1175 SonGoku

SonGoku
  • Member

  • 4,019 posts
  • Joined: July 17

Posted 17 November 2019 - 14:35

What a frustrating season and car for them. Even more frustrating than just building a crap car. They have to change it up for next season.

#1176 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 49,443 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 18 November 2019 - 18:45

If there is a next season...

 

Gene Haas reconsidering future in F1



#1177 Heyli

Heyli
  • Member

  • 3,191 posts
  • Joined: May 17

Posted 18 November 2019 - 19:28

If there is a next season...

 

Gene Haas reconsidering future in F1

There is. He is considering beyond 2020.



#1178 Montie

Montie
  • Member

  • 1,274 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 19 November 2019 - 16:44

If there is a next season...

Gene Haas reconsidering future in F1


So is Red Bull, Ferrari, Renault etc every year.

#1179 f1rules

f1rules
  • Member

  • 6,769 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 22 November 2019 - 11:52

lol because they had decent pace in brazil steiner believe they could have been best of rest, he is getting more and more annoying to listen to, first it was the tires which turned out it was actually an aero problem, suck it up steiner, honeymoon for Haas is over and it will be consierable more difficult from now on



Advertisement

#1180 BlindZenDriver

BlindZenDriver
  • Member

  • 164 posts
  • Joined: May 18

Posted 22 November 2019 - 14:54

lol because they had decent pace in brazil steiner believe they could have been best of rest, he is getting more and more annoying to listen to, first it was the tires which turned out it was actually an aero problem, suck it up steiner, honeymoon for Haas is over and it will be consierable more difficult from now on

 

Dude, it is Christmas - try finding that positive thinking.

Steiner is right - when you look at where the Haas cars was, what happened and how small the margins was the ultimately decided things. Did you actually watch the race including the timing data and track the pit stops, from your writing I bet you didn't so go back and take a good look.



#1181 Nathan

Nathan
  • Member

  • 5,024 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 22 November 2019 - 15:58

Seems to me the issue is more on the engineering side than the Netflix side.  Last years hero is this years zero.



#1182 KongKurs

KongKurs
  • Member

  • 275 posts
  • Joined: December 14

Posted 04 December 2019 - 09:49

Wow, what a long season this has been for the Haas F1 Team, for many reasons.

 

I really hope they come out stronger in 2020, they were so great in 2018, even without the many lost points of Australia. 

 

Here's hoping for a great 2020.