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Racing Point 2019: Stroll, Stroll and Perez


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#101 Clatter

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Posted 30 April 2019 - 18:21

I'm not Strol jr. fan but 20s is nothing considering a street circuit and where he started from.  The guy probably did the most he could have and he's done well here before so it is fine where he finished.  He should have finished higher.. yup and it was his own fault he didn't but give the guy a bit of credit to the gap and reasoning.  He did better then a lot of other guys out there..  HE still cost the team valuable points and places but he made the most of his outcomes.

 


Starting higher up the grid is not a guarantee of finishing there.

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#102 messy

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Posted 30 April 2019 - 18:42

Stroll.....said it before, maybe on this thread so apologies if I made repeating myself - he's Jean Eric Vergne mk2.

Awful over a single qualifying lap but much better on raceday. Don't rate him as high as I did JEV yet. Vergne, I always thought if he could get his head around qualifying, he'd have been a spectacular talent in F1. Brilliant, swashbuckling racer, afraid of nobody, clever, calculated wheel to wheel dogfighter, I see similar traits in Stroll (and he gains points for an Alonso-like ability to nail the start and opening corners of a race), but I don't think he's as pronounced. But there's something there.

Maybe, maybe we just have to finally concede that Sergio Perez is the real deal? It's taken a while. Since 2014 he's been there, seeing off higher rated team-mates, grabbing headline results when the chance has arisen every time, scoring three figure points totals year after year after year - at some stage in that I think you have to give him credit where it's due. He's not the most spectacular or the most charismatic, but he's there's and if he keeps driving like this and I was Christian Horner, I'd be weighing up giving him a call tbh.

#103 warp

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Posted 30 April 2019 - 22:27

Maybe, maybe we just have to finally concede that Sergio Perez is the real deal? It's taken a while. Since 2014 he's been there, seeing off higher rated team-mates, grabbing headline results when the chance has arisen every time, scoring three figure points totals year after year after year - at some stage in that I think you have to give him credit where it's due. He's not the most spectacular or the most charismatic, but he's there's and if he keeps driving like this and I was Christian Horner, I'd be weighing up giving him a call tbh.

 

Unfortunately Horner can only pick Red Bull Academy drivers (that can be hit or miss unfortunately for him)



#104 TheJammin

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Posted 30 April 2019 - 22:32

I'm not a fan of Perez but he is a massively under-rated driver. I think amongst us forum types he is getting some of the plaudits he deserves, and was it Ricciardo who called him a midfield legend recently, or something like that?

I'm sure Ocon, Hulk, Kobayashi, Button and now Stroll would attest to him being a decent driver too. Well, I dunno about Button, but the others all got a beating from him, and all are good drivers.

#105 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 30 April 2019 - 22:33

Unfortunately Horner can only pick Red Bull Academy drivers (that can be hit or miss unfortunately for him)

 

Any drivers left in that academy who have a Super License?

 

:cool:



#106 danmills

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Posted 30 April 2019 - 22:46

Perez definitely needs another shot with a better team, he would be quite a dastardly No.2.

Sadly there doesn't seem to be the space for him anywhere. I'd pay good money to see him in RB overall, but I'd imagine he'd rub Verstappen the wrong way.

#107 charly0418

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 14:57

Big updates coming for Racing Point next race. Won’t be surprised if they’re the clear 4th best team after the race

#108 PayasYouRace

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 16:21

I'm not a fan of Perez but he is a massively under-rated driver. I think amongst us forum types he is getting some of the plaudits he deserves, and was it Ricciardo who called him a midfield legend recently, or something like that?

I'm sure Ocon, Hulk, Kobayashi, Button and now Stroll would attest to him being a decent driver too. Well, I dunno about Button, but the others all got a beating from him, and all are good drivers.

 

I think Perez' reputation was very badly harmed by how he was perceived to have gone at McLaren. He was close to Button but McLaren dropped the ball so much that year his performance gets sort of lost.



#109 FNG

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 18:05

Always been a fan of Perez. He's so underrated. If Gasley doesn't pan out RB should snatch him up.



#110 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 18:42

https://www.motorspo...y-baku/4379310/

Perez ‘pleased lance scored points’

I’ll be very interested to see what happens if they collide. Or how Otmar reacts to any silly moments from Lance

#111 BRG

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 20:26

Or how Otmar reacts to any silly moments from Lance

He has managed to weather quite a few silly moments from Perez and other team-mates in the past, so I doubt if Lance will do anything that would upset him very much.



#112 Clatter

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 20:44

https://www.motorspo...y-baku/4379310/

Perez ‘pleased lance scored points’

I’ll be very interested to see what happens if they collide. Or how Otmar reacts to any silly moments from Lance


Such as? How many silly moments has he had?

#113 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 20:55

Stroll have had 3 race ending collisions in his F1 career, 2nd and 3rd race he did and then Canada last year, I do not consider him prone to collide with other drivers.

 

:cool:



#114 bargeboard

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 21:03

I'd like to see Lance get his qualifying form sorted out, because I could see him staying right with Perez if he could start near him.



#115 TheJammin

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 11:08

Yeah if Lance can sort qualifying out I think he could be a very solid midfield runner. His starts may not look as good if he is a bit higher up the grid, but his opening laps are more often than not great. Think he could be a lot closer to Perez once he settles down.

 

On the topic of Perez, I think his reputation would be a lot better if McLaren hadn't been a race winning car the year before he arrived. I don't think anyone anticipated the massive slide down the order they'd embarked upon, and it ended up impacting him badly. Whether his attitude was poor or whether that was just rumours I don't know. Can't imagine McLaren is the easiest place to work at.



#116 baddog

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 11:35

Perez is quick and consistent, his rep doesn't match his actual ability.. but he has always seemed to have one of the worst attitudes of any driver on the grid and it costs him with both fans and, it seems, potential rides. 

 

The fact he was a hot mess at Mclaren didn't help, and a reputation lost is hard to restore.. F1 has always been unforgiving of young drivers who combine 'good' performance with entitlement and stupid crashes, including your teammate. If they are 'amazing' performances then all tends to be forgiven a-la Max.

 

I think the infinite money bucket is the biggest cause, he thinks he is a big time player or something.



#117 charly0418

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 12:17

Perez is quick and consistent, his rep doesn't match his actual ability.. but he has always seemed to have one of the worst attitudes of any driver on the grid and it costs him with both fans and, it seems, potential rides.

The fact he was a hot mess at Mclaren didn't help, and a reputation lost is hard to restore.. F1 has always been unforgiving of young drivers who combine 'good' performance with entitlement and stupid crashes, including your teammate. If they are 'amazing' performances then all tends to be forgiven a-la Max.

I think the infinite money bucket is the biggest cause, he thinks he is a big time player or something.


Yikes

#118 absinthedude

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 13:48

Wow, did Checo pee in your cheerios?

 

Being serious, does he really act like he's some big shot? I don't see that on TV, but I've never met him and don't know anyone who personally knows him (unlike some of the drivers).

 

He definitely had problems with Ocon...but I've not really noticed it with other team-mates. I don't see the "hot mess at McLaren" either. 



#119 HeadFirst

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 13:59

As others have suggested, Lance really does need to improve his qualifying. Starting further up the grid would present some new challenges (faster car/driver pkgs. to pass), but should result in better finishes and more points for the team. That said, I don't think Lance will be in a position to challenge Perez , whose race pace and tire management is pretty strong. With the promised upgrades in place and Q improvement from young Stroll, Racing Point might emerge at the top of the 2nd tier teams.



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#120 ARTGP

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 14:31

Wow, did Checo pee in your cheerios?

 

Being serious, does he really act like he's some big shot? I don't see that on TV, but I've never met him and don't know anyone who personally knows him (unlike some of the drivers).

 

He definitely had problems with Ocon...but I've not really noticed it with other team-mates. I don't see the "hot mess at McLaren" either. 

 

There are some quotes out there from Sauber, and McLaren employees who did not exaclty admire Perez's attitude coming up.

 

But then again, look where Max is with his "attitude". I don't think a big deal in the end. Team should pick a fast driver over a nice and slow one.



#121 Jon83

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 15:32

When it comes to Perez, you need to take the whole package into account. His driving in Singapore last year was a disgrace and teams aren't going to ignore that when things are marginal between him and a driver of a similar profile.



#122 Paco

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 17:17

As others have suggested, Lance really does need to improve his qualifying. Starting further up the grid would present some new challenges (faster car/driver pkgs. to pass), but should result in better finishes and more points for the team. That said, I don't think Lance will be in a position to challenge Perez , whose race pace and tire management is pretty strong. With the promised upgrades in place and Q improvement from young Stroll, Racing Point might emerge at the top of the 2nd tier teams.

 

You think.. considering how slow Perez was in qualifying in relation to Ocon on pure numbers against.. it really demonstrates that Lance still hasn't found any 1 lap pace as Perez isn't a 1lap lighting rod..

 

Perez is handy but simply not stellar fast but gets the race better.  However, always having to make up places always simply cause you can't eek out more in qualifying sucks... He's never been under rated, he's a good driver just not stellar as Ocon demonstrated last season.  Good points haller for sure, just doesn't light up the track to keep hims in the converstation enough.


Edited by Paco, 02 May 2019 - 17:20.


#123 coppilcus

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 20:06

You think.. considering how slow Perez was in qualifying in relation to Ocon on pure numbers against.. it really demonstrates that Lance still hasn't found any 1 lap pace as Perez isn't a 1lap lighting rod..

 

Perez is handy but simply not stellar fast but gets the race better.  However, always having to make up places always simply cause you can't eek out more in qualifying sucks... He's never been under rated, he's a good driver just not stellar as Ocon demonstrated last season.  Good points haller for sure, just doesn't light up the track to keep hims in the converstation enough.

 

Ocon proved being stellar by loosing to Perez two straight seasons?!

 

:drunk:


Edited by coppilcus, 02 May 2019 - 20:10.


#124 coppilcus

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 20:07

Perez is quick and consistent, his rep doesn't match his actual ability.. but he has always seemed to have one of the worst attitudes of any driver on the grid and it costs him with both fans and, it seems, potential rides. 

 

The fact he was a hot mess at Mclaren didn't help, and a reputation lost is hard to restore.. F1 has always been unforgiving of young drivers who combine 'good' performance with entitlement and stupid crashes, including your teammate. If they are 'amazing' performances then all tends to be forgiven a-la Max.

 

I think the infinite money bucket is the biggest cause, he thinks he is a big time player or something.

 

 

Yikes

 

Jesus!



#125 Myrvold

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 21:49

Ocon proved being stellar by loosing to Perez two straight seasons?!

 

:drunk:

Now you read what you want to read.

 

By being beaten by Ocon in the qual battle, Ocon demonstrated that Perez' outright speed (qual) isn't stellar. But that he is very good in the races. However the absolute top teams sees the seemingly lack of outright top pace as not enough for them, even though he is a safe pair of hands when it comes to scoring throughout a season*

I think it points more to Stroll not getting any faster in outright speed. Perez have been beaten in the qual battle against both Hülkenberg and Ocon, but he is outclassing Stroll.



#126 warp

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 22:01

Now you read what you want to read.

 

By being beaten by Ocon in the qual battle, Ocon demonstrated that Perez' outright speed (qual) isn't stellar. But that he is very good in the races. However the absolute top teams sees the seemingly lack of outright top pace as not enough for them, even though he is a safe pair of hands when it comes to scoring throughout a season*

 

 

I think the point is that you can easily revert it and say that Perez demonstrated that Ocon and Hulk are not as good as people thought them to be by beating them on the points and podiums battle.



#127 coppilcus

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 22:25

Now you read what you want to read.

By being beaten by Ocon in the qual battle, Ocon demonstrated that Perez' outright speed (qual) isn't stellar. But that he is very good in the races. However the absolute top teams sees the seemingly lack of outright top pace as not enough for them, even though he is a safe pair of hands when it comes to scoring throughout a season*
I think it points more to Stroll not getting any faster in outright speed. Perez have been beaten in the qual battle against both Hülkenberg and Ocon, but he is outclassing Stroll.

Now you read what you want to read.

By trying so hard to beat Perez, being his teammate the only driver that Ocon never backed off a move, qualified ahead, and still could not beat him. Speaks volumes of what could the Frenchman do against an excellent driver such as Hamilton or Vettel: Being outclassed and crash every race.

Edited by coppilcus, 03 May 2019 - 09:34.


#128 Myrvold

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 23:34

I think the point is that you can easily revert it and say that Perez demonstrated that Ocon and Hulk are not as good as people thought them to be by beating them on the points and podiums battle.

Now you read what you want to read.

By trying so hard to beat Perez, being his teammate the only driver with that Ocon never backed off a move, qualified ahead, and still could not beat him. Speaks volumes of what could the Frenchman do against an excellent such as Hamilton or Vettel: Being outclassed and crashes at every race.

But both of these seems to go off the idea that me and/or paco have claimed that Perez isn't a good racer. Neither of us have.¨Both of us, as far as I can understand, have said that he is not a supreme qualifier, and that it does seem like he lacks that last bit to be a top driver in outright pace. That coupled with his year at McLaren might be why he is overlooked by the top teams. He is a safe, solid points scorer. A must-have for the midfielders. However, there's no room for him at the top teams.

For you warp, that is likely the exact thing that Perez did. Ocon changed the team battle from year 1 to year 2, so there is a theory that he might have unlocked potential in him still - which we have no idea of. But that possible theoretical potential might make him a bit more interesting for e.g Mercedes (aside from the fact that he is a Merc driver) than Perez. There is little chance that Perez still has that. Hulk have got his chance at redemption now against Ricciardo, because you are right that Perez showed that Hulkenberg didn't live up to his pre-f1 rep.

coppilcus, you seem to try to provoke more than anything there - so, I'll let someone else bite on it.

 

Regardless, I don't, see where it has been said that Perez isn't good in the races.



#129 theflyingwheel

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 00:22

When it comes to Perez, you need to take the whole package into account. His driving in Singapore last year was a disgrace and teams aren't going to ignore that when things are marginal between him and a driver of a similar profile.

So was Ocon driving in Mexico, Baku and Brazil but people were crying because no team wanted him.

Ahhh yeah the Ocon “potential” argument (again)...

Edited by theflyingwheel, 03 May 2019 - 00:25.


#130 Paco

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 01:40

Now you read what you want to read.

 

By being beaten by Ocon in the qual battle, Ocon demonstrated that Perez' outright speed (qual) isn't stellar. But that he is very good in the races. However the absolute top teams sees the seemingly lack of outright top pace as not enough for them, even though he is a safe pair of hands when it comes to scoring throughout a season*

I think it points more to Stroll not getting any faster in outright speed. Perez have been beaten in the qual battle against both Hülkenberg and Ocon, but he is outclassing Stroll.

 

Yup.. people have a selective memory of events and only want to see things how they choose.

 

Ocon was faster over 1 lap.  Both good in races.  Who would i take .. Ocon.. I want the fast guy who gives the team the best chance as high up the grid and still very good in the race. 

 

As for Perez.. guy is good enough to be on the grid and deserves his shot unlike his teammate that hasn't shown anything worthy of staying in F1 other then being ok'ish on street courses.



#131 baddog

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 01:47

Yikes

 

What?

 

I point out that I think Perez is better than people seem to think, but that he has issues with attitude which I think have not helped him. I also think he got off to a bad start with his Mac season.

 

Not sure what is worth a 'Yikes' there?



#132 baddog

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 01:48

There are some quotes out there from Sauber, and McLaren employees who did not exaclty admire Perez's attitude coming up.

 

But then again, look where Max is with his "attitude". I don't think a big deal in the end. Team should pick a fast driver over a nice and slow one.

 

Max looked amazing from the get go which is why his shitty attitude is being ignored by teams. If a driver is in the larger 'pretty good potential' box then the attitude can be a deciding factor.



#133 Myrvold

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 02:10

Ahhh yeah the Ocon “potential” argument (again)...

... 

So, you have a top driver, the driver is getting older but it still one of, if not the worlds best driver. You got two choices on who to put next to him. One have 8 years of F1 experience and you know he is a really good racer in the mid-pack. Or you have his teammate, just over 2 years of experience. Got beaten clearly the first year they were paired, but the second year he finished ahead on head-to-head in qual and race with a bit of margin, though being outscored.

 

You would expect the less experienced driver to have more potential of the two, after all the driver did turn the head-to-head battles completely from year 1 to year 2. He might've reached his peak, he might not. While the now, veteran driver with over 150 starts probably drives at the top of his level.

 

Then it all depends on what you need in the team, are you looking for a potential guy to take the spot of the top driver when he retires in a couple of seasons, you'll probably go for the guy with less experience. Do you need a solid driver, who can shine on his days, but likely will be a good 2nd driver in team, you'll probably go for the guy with the experience.

 

In this particular case, that doesn't mean that Ocon will get any better, and he might've had his best ever season last year. However, we know he got better in relation to Perez from year 1 to year 2, so it isn't a far fetched theory that he might have some more to gain as he gain experience. However, I don't see Perez suddenly finding more speed now.



#134 Lights

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 07:53

Ocon proved being stellar by loosing to Perez two straight seasons?!

 

:drunk:

 

By trying so hard to beat Perez, being his teammate the only driver with that Ocon never backed off a move, qualified ahead, and still could not beat him. Speaks volumes of what could the Frenchman do against an excellent such as Hamilton or Vettel: Being outclassed and crashes at every race.

 

That's putting too much emphasis on the driver standings.

 

Taking the 2018 season, Ocon impressed me more than Perez in 11 of the 21 races (BHR ESP MC CAN AUT GBR HUN ITA SIN RUS USA) whereas Perez only did that 7 times for me (AUS AZE GER BEL JPN BRA ARE) with 3 races non-conclusive (CHN FRA MEX). That Perez managed to end up with more points has a lot to do with profiting from unusual circumstances in Baku + the technical DQ of Ocon in USA after finishing ahead of Perez. In my mind, Ocon at the very least matched Perez last year, and so will anyone conclude who looks a bit further than the driver standings. So when we're talking about topteams being interested in these two lads, I'd give the more consistently delivering driver the higher odds, especially giving his relative lack of experience and improvement rate from season to season.



#135 taran

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 07:56

... 

So, you have a top driver, the driver is getting older but it still one of, if not the worlds best driver. You got two choices on who to put next to him. One have 8 years of F1 experience and you know he is a really good racer in the mid-pack. Or you have his teammate, just over 2 years of experience. Got beaten clearly the first year they were paired, but the second year he finished ahead on head-to-head in qual and race with a bit of margin, though being outscored.

 

You would expect the less experienced driver to have more potential of the two, after all the driver did turn the head-to-head battles completely from year 1 to year 2. He might've reached his peak, he might not. While the now, veteran driver with over 150 starts probably drives at the top of his level.

 

Then it all depends on what you need in the team, are you looking for a potential guy to take the spot of the top driver when he retires in a couple of seasons, you'll probably go for the guy with less experience. Do you need a solid driver, who can shine on his days, but likely will be a good 2nd driver in team, you'll probably go for the guy with the experience.

 

In this particular case, that doesn't mean that Ocon will get any better, and he might've had his best ever season last year. However, we know he got better in relation to Perez from year 1 to year 2, so it isn't a far fetched theory that he might have some more to gain as he gain experience. However, I don't see Perez suddenly finding more speed now.

 

Your post is well reasoned and I agree with your conclusion that Ocon likely still has potential to get better while Perez is likely plateaued at a high limit.

 

But if you look at the stand out drivers, the absolute aces of their generation, people like Prost, Senna, Schumacher and Vettel, they didn't need multiple seasons to hone their potential. They were damn fast from the outset and more often than not dominated their more experienced team mates.

Top drivers who didn't like Piquet, Hamilton or Verstappen were usally paired with pretty good drivers in their own right like Lauda, Alonso or Ricciardo. And in verstappen's case, it was clear that he was special.

 

And that is what top teams are looking for when shopping for a new team leader and Ocon doesn't seem to tick that box. And if they want a #2, wouldn't a Perez be preferable?

 

All in all, I don't see a strong argument for Ocon as he isn't a potential superstar and neither is he a safe pair of hands.



#136 absinthedude

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 08:07

It's not that nobody wanted Ocon.....Esteban was effectively ousted from Racing Point to make room for Lance. Perez is the one for whom there is surprisingly little interest outside of Racing Point. Plenty of teams would have taken Ocon if Mercedes felt able to offer him for more than one season....but understandably after Bottas' lack of form in the second half of 2018, Merc wanted to keep the option of promoting Ocon to the Mercedes team for 2020. 

 

Perez is supreme at getting results in a midfield car. We've never really seen him in a top car, and I would like to have that opportunity.....see if he can step up to the plate and deliver. Meanwhile at Sauber, FI/RP he's consistently delivered points and the occasional podium against tough team mates. He's the perfect team mate for Lance, who does have to step his own game up in 2019. So far Lance has been very good in the races but still tends to struggle in qualifying. It's never going to be a big surprise if Perez makes Q3. I am surprised if Lance makes it. On the other hand Lance is often pleasantly surprising in the early laps of the race...gaining lots of positions which he tends to hold for the duration.



#137 rocque

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 12:45

Perez was far better point of reference for Ocon over the past two years than Kobayashi was for him in 2011/12.

If Ocon - in his first and second full season in F1 - showed nothing against Perez then Perez showed nothing against Kobayashi.

It's funny to read all the criticism of Ocon's every single mistake and meanwhile all the inconvenient facts from Checo's past are skipped over. Isn't it a hypocrisy?

Perez was never young, never did silly mistakes and didn't improve through the years because "potential argument" is wrong  :drunk:

 

I would say:

"By trying so hard to beat Perez Button, being his teammate the only driver that Ocon Perez never backed off a move, qualified ahead, and still could not beat him. Speaks volumes of what could the Frenchman Mexican do against an excellent driver such as Hamilton or Vettel: Being outclassed and crash every race."   ;)


Edited by rocque, 03 May 2019 - 12:46.


#138 messy

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 12:56

There are some quotes out there from Sauber, and McLaren employees who did not exaclty admire Perez's attitude coming up.

 

But then again, look where Max is with his "attitude". I don't think a big deal in the end. Team should pick a fast driver over a nice and slow one.

 

 

Perez was lazy, bad tempered and arrogant as a youngster according to numerous reports from his Sauber and McLaren days. 

 

But that was 2013 (at the latest), it's a long time ago. I don't think you see much bad about him these days at all. Force India seem to like him. There was a joint interview with Hulkenberg and Perez a while back in one of the F1 mags and they were joking about what a 'mess' Perez was as a youngster and how far he's matured. 



#139 selespeed

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 14:35

That's putting too much emphasis on the driver standings.

Taking the 2018 season, Ocon impressed me more than Perez in 11 of the 21 races (BHR ESP MC CAN AUT GBR HUN ITA SIN RUS USA) whereas Perez only did that 7 times for me (AUS AZE GER BEL JPN BRA ARE) with 3 races non-conclusive (CHN FRA MEX). That Perez managed to end up with more points has a lot to do with profiting from unusual circumstances in Baku + the technical DQ of Ocon in USA after finishing ahead of Perez.


In AUT Perez started 6 places behind Ocon...closed 10sec deficit...no racing allowed team moved Ocon aside and Perez put 10sec on him but couldn't overtake HAAS...and had to give place bavk to Ocon...so if we're looking "beyond results" i would give AUT to Perez.
GER....he put 25 sec on Ocon...overtook a HAAS...the team lost him 6sec in the pits...when it started raining overtook both HAAS drivers (we didn't get to see any of that)...than span when offline because of a backmarker....recovered and still was 8 sec infront of Ocon...safety car put Ocon on his back...imidietly pulled out of his DRS range...Autosport gave them both an 8...
BEL...pulled constanly away from Ocon to more than 10sec
JAP put cars between him and Ocon...again with an overtake on track....and again off cameras...we didn't get to see or hear anything even on highlights
AZE is circumstances...but he overtooka Ferrari to get a podium and probably on only lap that was going to happen with Vettels flatspot...
...so i can give 18 to Perez easily

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#140 Myrvold

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 15:27

Your post is well reasoned and I agree with your conclusion that Ocon likely still has potential to get better while Perez is likely plateaued at a high limit.

 

But if you look at the stand out drivers, the absolute aces of their generation, people like Prost, Senna, Schumacher and Vettel, they didn't need multiple seasons to hone their potential. They were damn fast from the outset and more often than not dominated their more experienced team mates.

Top drivers who didn't like Piquet, Hamilton or Verstappen were usally paired with pretty good drivers in their own right like Lauda, Alonso or Ricciardo. And in verstappen's case, it was clear that he was special.

 

And that is what top teams are looking for when shopping for a new team leader and Ocon doesn't seem to tick that box. And if they want a #2, wouldn't a Perez be preferable?

 

All in all, I don't see a strong argument for Ocon as he isn't a potential superstar and neither is he a safe pair of hands.

Oh, I agree. I just feel that, if we'll compare to fairly recent history, that you can end up with a new Häkkinen, or a new Coulthard.



#141 Lights

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 16:10

In AUT Perez started 6 places behind Ocon...closed 10sec deficit...no racing allowed team moved Ocon aside and Perez put 10sec on him but couldn't overtake HAAS...and had to give place bavk to Ocon...so if we're looking "beyond results" i would give AUT to Perez.
GER....he put 25 sec on Ocon...overtook a HAAS...the team lost him 6sec in the pits...when it started raining overtook both HAAS drivers (we didn't get to see any of that)...than span when offline because of a backmarker....recovered and still was 8 sec infront of Ocon...safety car put Ocon on his back...imidietly pulled out of his DRS range...Autosport gave them both an 8...
BEL...pulled constanly away from Ocon to more than 10sec
JAP put cars between him and Ocon...again with an overtake on track....and again off cameras...we didn't get to see or hear anything even on highlights
AZE is circumstances...but he overtooka Ferrari to get a podium and probably on only lap that was going to happen with Vettels flatspot...
...so i can give 18 to Perez easily

 

I don't really understand your post. If I'd cherrypick 5 races I could probably give Bottas the 2018 season over Hamilton. 



#142 selespeed

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 17:03

I don't really understand your post. If I'd cherrypick 5 races I could probably give Bottas the 2018 season over Hamilton.


I highlighted races where i think Perez was better than Ocon with the margin...can you list some of Ocons races like that?

HUN you listed a race for Ocon...why...he outqualified Perez....who stayed on his back...got infront through pits...and gave position back to Ocon...

#143 HeadFirst

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 19:15

I don't really understand your post. If I'd cherrypick 5 races I could probably give Bottas the 2018 season over Hamilton. 

 

Interesting concept worth pursuing. I imagine you could do that with any pairing, although with Bottas/Hamilton I think you are stretching it.



#144 coppilcus

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 20:28

That's putting too much emphasis on the driver standings.

Taking the 2018 season, Ocon impressed me more than Perez in 11 of the 21 races (BHR ESP MC CAN AUT GBR HUN ITA SIN RUS USA) whereas Perez only did that 7 times for me (AUS AZE GER BEL JPN BRA ARE) with 3 races non-conclusive (CHN FRA MEX). That Perez managed to end up with more points has a lot to do with profiting from unusual circumstances in Baku + the technical DQ of Ocon in USA after finishing ahead of Perez. In my mind, Ocon at the very least matched Perez last year, and so will anyone conclude who looks a bit further than the driver standings. So when we're talking about topteams being interested in these two lads, I'd give the more consistently delivering driver the higher odds, especially giving his relative lack of experience and improvement rate from season to season.

Pérez won because when the car was capable to score big points, the Mexican fulfilled the potential of the car and Ocon did not: Baku and Spa. They were not allowed to race each other, Ocon qualified ahead and still managed to score less points than Perez, loosing fair and square for the second straight year.

Every time the Frenchman got the chance to score big points, he crashed into someone: Perez in Baku in 2017 and Raikonnen, gain at Baku, last season...

Every driver becomes the victim of bad luck or lousy pit stops or strategies from the pitwall, but Ocon can only blame himself and Perez for his defeats, not the number of adverts featuring Perez at the Mexican Grand Prix.

Edited by coppilcus, 03 May 2019 - 20:39.


#145 coppilcus

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 20:35

Perez was far better point of reference for Ocon over the past two years than Kobayashi was for him in 2011/12.
If Ocon - in his first and second full season in F1 - showed nothing against Perez then Perez showed nothing against Kobayashi.
It's funny to read all the criticism of Ocon's every single mistake and meanwhile all the inconvenient facts from Checo's past are skipped over. Isn't it a hypocrisy?
Perez was never young, never did silly mistakes and didn't improve through the years because "potential argument" is wrong :drunk:

I would say:
"By trying so hard to beat Perez Button, being his teammate the only driver that Ocon Perez never backed off a move, qualified ahead, and still could not beat him. Speaks volumes of what could the Frenchman Mexican do against an excellent driver such as Hamilton or Vettel: Being outclassed and crash every race."  ;)


Yeah, right...

The salty encounters between Button and Perez only happened at one race, and it was the Brit who brake tested Perez and banged wheels with him before pushing Perez off the track...

#146 subh

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Posted 08 May 2019 - 14:12

In AUT Perez started 6 places behind Ocon...closed 10sec deficit...no racing allowed team moved Ocon aside and Perez put 10sec on him but couldn't overtake HAAS...and had to give place bavk to Ocon...so if we're looking "beyond results" i would give AUT to Perez.
GER....he put 25 sec on Ocon...overtook a HAAS...the team lost him 6sec in the pits...when it started raining overtook both HAAS drivers (we didn't get to see any of that)...than span when offline because of a backmarker....recovered and still was 8 sec infront of Ocon...safety car put Ocon on his back...imidietly pulled out of his DRS range...Autosport gave them both an 8...
BEL...pulled constanly away from Ocon to more than 10sec
JAP put cars between him and Ocon...again with an overtake on track....and again off cameras...we didn't get to see or hear anything even on highlights
AZE is circumstances...but he overtooka Ferrari to get a podium and probably on only lap that was going to happen with Vettels flatspot...
...so i can give 18 to Perez easily


I would say that ITA 2018 goes to Pérez as well. He only missed out on Q2 by fractions, but that meant he started six places behind Ocon. In the race he was faster than Ocon and ended up only 0.917s behind in 6th and 7th positions (after Grosjean was disqualified).

#147 HeadFirst

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 19:06

Nice bounce-back by Stroll after his Q1 issues, but what happened to Perez? I was expecting him to be inside the top 10.



#148 warp

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 22:02

Nice bounce-back by Stroll after his Q1 issues, but what happened to Perez? I was expecting him to be inside the top 10.

 

Sorry, I'm confused... you mean FP, not Q?

Still, weird to see Checo down the bottom like that. Probably having issues or on a different program



#149 Gambelli

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 22:23

This thread is really interesting.

 

As a neutral observer and I quite like both Ocon and Perez my opinion is they both came out of their battle together pretty well.

 

Ocon challenged Perez from very early on and proved to be outright faster at negotiating an entire lap of a circuit last year.

 

Having said that, Perez showed once again he has a very special talent for covering 300km very quickly, a talent that Hulk even struggled against.  He keeps his head (mostly) when big points are on offer and bags those opportunistic podiums, its always he who is there for those.

 

So on balance, Ocon has high peak speed, which to me means he's in that area (I'm not say entirely on par, but in the area) that includes Hamilton, Verstappen, Vettel, Leclerc, and just off that Ricciardo, in fact even as a Ricciardo fan I'd say Ocon would probably get him in a qualy battle.

 

And with Perez, I would put him in the same group for covering a race distance.

 

So yeah, to me, they both came out of last year very impressive.

 

Like everyone else, its just an opinion though....



#150 HeadFirst

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Posted 11 May 2019 - 04:37

Sorry, I'm confused... you mean FP, not Q?

Still, weird to see Checo down the bottom like that. Probably having issues or on a different program

 

Yes, FP not Q. Forgive me it's my birthday ... a traumatic experience at my age. Seriously ... yes, I'm sure he was having some issue, just don't know what.