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Racing Point 2019: Stroll, Stroll and Perez


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#151 Viryfan

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Posted 11 May 2019 - 09:17

https://www.autospor...practice--perez

 

I hope Racing Point is not messing with Checo in order to favour the owner's son....



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#152 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 11 May 2019 - 09:33

https://www.autospor...practice--perez

 

I hope Racing Point is not messing with Checo in order to favour the owner's son....

 

They are not.

 

:cool:



#153 Berner

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Posted 11 May 2019 - 13:33

Stroll out again in Q1. Really, the lad needs some after-school lessons from a qually-master. Or more time at a kart track and less time yachting with the jet set.



#154 TheJammin

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Posted 11 May 2019 - 13:35

Damnit Stroll! Though only 0.2 behind Perez. With a midfield this tight you've really got a nail the quali. Hope he can make up for it in the race but doubtful.

#155 MaxScelerate

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Posted 11 May 2019 - 20:13

https://www.autospor...practice--perez

 

I hope Racing Point is not messing with Checo in order to favour the owner's son....

Really?

 

Once in over 12 practice sessions, Lance finishes somewhat higher up than Sergio: "Oh my god! It's Stroll-the-evil-mastermind's money at work!!" ?!?

 

What a pathetic outlook.



#156 Paco

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 00:55

Stroll out again in Q1. Really, the lad needs some after-school lessons from a qually-master. Or more time at a kart track and less time yachting with the jet set.

 

Williams gave the kid (cough cough dad did) soo much extra time with older chassis and he still can't find his fast legs..  it became evident at Williams very quickly and as much at RP, the kid is just not very good and kind of a1 trick pony and daddy in a big pickle on how to fire his son..


Edited by Paco, 12 May 2019 - 00:56.


#157 theflyingwheel

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 02:40

Williams gave the kid (cough cough dad did) soo much extra time with older chassis and he still can't find his fast legs.. it became evident at Williams very quickly and as much at RP, the kid is just not very good and kind of a1 trick pony and daddy in a big pickle on how to fire his son..


Like Maldonado though he did a podium something Ocon, Hulkenberg, Sainz and a couple other drivers cannot brag about, yet I totally agree with you but is important to mention than this kid is better at race pace than on single lap runs and his podium was due to Ocon crashing into Perez and denying Force India the first victory in the hands of Perez and denying himself a very likely podium giving it to Stroll.

#158 Lights

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 05:06

Stroll is losing the qualifying battle 0-5 against Perez, who, for some extra perspective, lost the 2018 qualifying battle against Ocon 5-16.

 

Stroll is simply not close to getting the most out of the car. And I don't see him improving a lot throughout the year.

 

I wonder what's going to happen to his position in the team when this continues. Most other drivers would lose their seat.



#159 Gambelli

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 07:25

If he was getting flogged I'd understand the angst, but he's usually within 0.2 sec isn't he?  There's some flogger driving a Mercedes who is 0-3 in qualy for the last 3 races against his journeyman team mate and this race he had 2 cracks at it and couldn't get within 0.6 sec, they should chuck him out of there too, he's even worse...... 



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#160 sopa

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 09:21

 

I wonder what's going to happen to his position in the team when this continues. Most other drivers would lose their seat.

 

Like somebody has mentioned somewhere, Stroll is the Marco Andretti of F1. As long as he brings at least a handful of points every while, he is safe. Though after a decade of racing his dad might finally get bored of this... Or maybe it would happen sooner.



#161 Paco

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 20:10

If he was getting flogged I'd understand the angst, but he's usually within 0.2 sec isn't he?  There's some flogger driving a Mercedes who is 0-3 in qualy for the last 3 races against his journeyman team mate and this race he had 2 cracks at it and couldn't get within 0.6 sec, they should chuck him out of there too, he's even worse...... 

 

You just make youself look silly trying to even put Stroll in the breath as Lewis the fastest guy perhaps of all time next to Senna.  It completely shuts down anything you were even trying to convey.  Be a fan of Stroll fine.. accept the truth..  As for Lewis, everyone knows he hasn't had a clean Q3 start.. Lost his engineer to Bottas and it's unsettled his quali prep. 

 

Ocon was faster in qualifying by a fair margin over Perez.  Perez is destroying Lance thus far in qualifying... So Lance is horrendous over 1 lap pace.  That's not even up for debate.  FULL STOP.  

 

Lance wouldn't be at RP if it wasn't for his father.    NO debate.

Lance was only at WIlliams for his dads cash after year 1 especially.. NO debate.  He wasn't in the team on merit.

Lance isn't at RP on merit, he's there by his father choice solely and his father hoped Lance's Williams form was due to the Williams desig turmoil that is beyond evident this season which Sr. must have known well..

 

Unfortunately for Stroll Sr... its clear his son is simply not 1lap fast.. which is a big deal. 

 

How Stroll is going to deal with it remains to be seen.. he may just be fine with it and just ensure they have a bonifide NO. 1 that isn't his son..and hope his son is close enough to collect the remaining points behind the lead driver.  It's not as if RP is going to leap into top 3 before 2021..

 

Tough days for the Stroll Family.. way back on the grid from where they technical talent should have them.  The worse pairing the FI team has had in a while.  We'll see how capable Stroll Sr. is to make the hard calls when needed.


Edited by Paco, 12 May 2019 - 23:25.


#162 warp

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 23:18

What happened to Checo this weekend? Did he have issues, an incident or he simply did not have the pace?

 

Sorry, I didn't watch the race. Thanks!



#163 scheivlak

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 23:27

What happened to Checo this weekend? Did he have issues, an incident or he simply did not have the pace?

 

Sorry, I didn't watch the race. Thanks!

No incident at all. Did not have the pace of some of his main competitors but was clearly faster all weekend than his team mate.  Not nearly enough for points.



#164 warp

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 23:35

No incident at all. Did not have the pace of some of his main competitors but was clearly faster all weekend than his team mate.  Not nearly enough for points.

 

Thanks!



#165 HeadFirst

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 03:22

You just make youself look silly trying to even put Stroll in the breath as Lewis the fastest guy perhaps of all time next to Senna.  It completely shuts down anything you were even trying to convey.  Be a fan of Stroll fine.. accept the truth..  As for Lewis, everyone knows he hasn't had a clean Q3 start.. Lost his engineer to Bottas and it's unsettled his quali prep. 

 

Ocon was faster in qualifying by a fair margin over Perez.  Perez is destroying Lance thus far in qualifying... So Lance is horrendous over 1 lap pace.  That's not even up for debate.  FULL STOP.  

 

Lance wouldn't be at RP if it wasn't for his father.    NO debate.

Lance was only at WIlliams for his dads cash after year 1 especially.. NO debate.  He wasn't in the team on merit.

Lance isn't at RP on merit, he's there by his father choice solely and his father hoped Lance's Williams form was due to the Williams desig turmoil that is beyond evident this season which Sr. must have known well..

 

Unfortunately for Stroll Sr... its clear his son is simply not 1lap fast.. which is a big deal. 

 

How Stroll is going to deal with it remains to be seen.. he may just be fine with it and just ensure they have a bonifide NO. 1 that isn't his son..and hope his son is close enough to collect the remaining points behind the lead driver.  It's not as if RP is going to leap into top 3 before 2021..

 

Tough days for the Stroll Family.. way back on the grid from where they technical talent should have them.  The worse pairing the FI team has had in a while.  We'll see how capable Stroll Sr. is to make the hard calls when needed.

 

Nice rant, but seriously Ocon's ship has sailed as far as Racing Point is concerned. His all-round performance made him less valuable to the team than Perez. 



#166 Anderis

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 06:35

You just make youself look silly trying to even put Stroll in the breath as Lewis the fastest guy perhaps of all time next to Senna.  It completely shuts down anything you were even trying to convey.  Be a fan of Stroll fine.. accept the truth..  As for Lewis, everyone knows he hasn't had a clean Q3 start.. Lost his engineer to Bottas and it's unsettled his quali prep. 

Sorry but he made a good point and it's you who made an irrational and emotional rant like you wouldn't like the facts.

 

Stroll went from being 0.6 secs on average from Massa to being 0.2 secs on average from Perez. I wouldn't say that's impressive but we've had drivers who were more out of depth in recent years and Stroll is still only 20.


Edited by Anderis, 13 May 2019 - 06:35.


#167 Pete_f1

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 09:39

Shame Stroll got taken out by Norris. I hope they carry on slowly improving their speed.

#168 HeadFirst

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 03:46

Shame Stroll got taken out by Norris. I hope they carry on slowly improving their speed.

 

I think it was a classic racing incident, thus no penalty. Maybe Stroll could have left room, maybe Norris should have waited .... I think it's a toss-up, although I used to think it was the responsibility of the passing driver to make a clean pass. In any event no points were involved. so I am okay with the drivers' actions and the ruling. I thought Mags "pass" on Grosjean was much worse as it cost the Haas team points.



#169 theflyingwheel

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 06:35

You just make youself look silly trying to even put Stroll in the breath as Lewis the fastest guy perhaps of all time next to Senna. It completely shuts down anything you were even trying to convey. Be a fan of Stroll fine.. accept the truth.. As for Lewis, everyone knows he hasn't had a clean Q3 start.. Lost his engineer to Bottas and it's unsettled his quali prep.

Ocon was faster in qualifying by a fair margin over Perez. Perez is destroying Lance thus far in qualifying... So Lance is horrendous over 1 lap pace. That's not even up for debate. FULL STOP.

Lance wouldn't be at RP if it wasn't for his father. NO debate.
Lance was only at WIlliams for his dads cash after year 1 especially.. NO debate. He wasn't in the team on merit.
Lance isn't at RP on merit, he's there by his father choice solely and his father hoped Lance's Williams form was due to the Williams desig turmoil that is beyond evident this season which Sr. must have known well..

Unfortunately for Stroll Sr... its clear his son is simply not 1lap fast.. which is a big deal.

How Stroll is going to deal with it remains to be seen.. he may just be fine with it and just ensure they have a bonifide NO. 1 that isn't his son..and hope his son is close enough to collect the remaining points behind the lead driver. It's not as if RP is going to leap into top 3 before 2021..

Tough days for the Stroll Family.. way back on the grid from where they technical talent should have them. The worse pairing the FI team has had in a while. We'll see how capable Stroll Sr. is to make the hard calls when needed.

Wow, nice rant and although I agree with some of your points including the fact that Stroll is not as good as the Stroll family believe I am happy that Ocon was ousted so Stroll can arrive to the team.

RP still exist thanks to Stroll, the workers get to kept their jobs thanks to Stroll, F1 has more teams in the grid thanks to Stroll, RP gets a cash injection which in a future may even help develop better cars to compete higher on the grid.

If the price for all these benefits was loosing Ocon a driver who despite hearing in repeated occasions that he has “potential” (whatever that means) in his 2.5 seasons in F1 failed to beat even once his teammates, lost to Perez in two consecutive seasons, got outscored by Perez in 2017 and 2018, got outqualified by Perez in 2017 13-7 but his fans only care about 2018, failed to deliver a podium despite in 2017 and 2018 having a car to get one as proven by his teammate in Baku almost two times had Ocon not crashed into Perez in Baku in 2017 or had Ocon not crashed into Kimi in 2018, having the reputation of being a trouble maker with his teammates since Perez had never got any issues with his teammates prior to Ocon, being extremely erratic and crash prone while always ALWAYS playing the victim as proven in 2018 when he crashed into 6 different drivers (Baku 2018 Kimi, France 2018 Gasly, Singapore 2018 into his teammate by being overly ambitious, Mexico 2018 where he crashed 3 times in the race and of course Brazil 2018 having the Maldonado magic to crash into the race leader into full display of entitlement like if he was a world champion when he has yet to even beat his teammate in a full season), finishing in 2018 in 12th place in the WDC where his “paydriver” teammate finished 8th 4 places above Ocon.

Some people seem to defend Ocon blindly but it’s so hard for them to come to realize that he is not as good as they think he is, he is surely not world champion material, was he as good as some people think he is, in 2018 Ferrari would choose him over LeClerc or Mercedes would had release Bottas like Ferrari released Kimi to make space for LeClerc or even RB would had choose him over Gasly or Renault would choose his “potential” (whatever that means) over Ricciardo, but teams don’t think he is the next big thing and don’t see the “potential” (whatever that means) a lot of his fans says he has, unlike drivers like Max or Lewis which if they are found in a similar situation no team would question to sign them straight away.

So yeah I’m super happy Ocon is out of Formula 1 in order to see Racing Point survive, his employees and families keep their jobs, Formula 1 keep another team even if that means having to have Stroll on the grid.

Edited by theflyingwheel, 14 May 2019 - 06:39.


#170 HammyHamiltonFan

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 06:42

Perez I think will get frustrated if the car doesn't improve soon, all the money they are supposed to have he will want to be best of the rest or in the fight not outside the points in a lot of races.

 

Stroll I think is just happy to be in the team, chances are he will continue to be in the team for as long as his old man is content for him to be.



#171 danmills

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 18:26

Perez must be so frustrated.

Who is next in the Toro Rosso prodigy upgrade camp?

I genuinely think Albon will be taking Gaslys seat by the end of the year, and I'm not convinced both of Kvyat and Gasly will be there for 2020. Perez would be such a solid choice for Toro Rosso, safe hands for any rookie to parallel. If they let Hartley run, Perez age should not be an issue for that sort of duo.

It's there or Haas if Grosjean keeps being Grosjean. But christ, imagine the on track fireworks between KMag and Perez.

#172 Paco

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 18:49

I cant see Perez going anywhere.. this line is solidified until 2021, for better or for worse.  Perez helped save the team as well.. Stroll sr. doesn't have a reason to let him go and "hope" he gets someone better but that would also mean making his son look worse.  Im' glad Stroll won out over Russian owners but it sucks to see a lesser driver gifted the seat, I guess some feel so be it.. maybe he's right.. maybe the staff internnaly wont care either..



#173 warp

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 10:59

Wow, nice rant and although I agree with some of your points including the fact that Stroll is not as good as the Stroll family believe I am happy that Ocon was ousted so Stroll can arrive to the team.

RP still exist thanks to Stroll, the workers get to kept their jobs thanks to Stroll, F1 has more teams in the grid thanks to Stroll, RP gets a cash injection which in a future may even help develop better cars to compete higher on the grid.

If the price for all these benefits was loosing Ocon a driver who despite hearing in repeated occasions that he has “potential” (whatever that means) in his 2.5 seasons in F1 failed to beat even once his teammates, lost to Perez in two consecutive seasons, got outscored by Perez in 2017 and 2018, got outqualified by Perez in 2017 13-7 but his fans only care about 2018, failed to deliver a podium despite in 2017 and 2018 having a car to get one as proven by his teammate in Baku almost two times had Ocon not crashed into Perez in Baku in 2017 or had Ocon not crashed into Kimi in 2018, having the reputation of being a trouble maker with his teammates since Perez had never got any issues with his teammates prior to Ocon, being extremely erratic and crash prone while always ALWAYS playing the victim as proven in 2018 when he crashed into 6 different drivers (Baku 2018 Kimi, France 2018 Gasly, Singapore 2018 into his teammate by being overly ambitious, Mexico 2018 where he crashed 3 times in the race and of course Brazil 2018 having the Maldonado magic to crash into the race leader into full display of entitlement like if he was a world champion when he has yet to even beat his teammate in a full season), finishing in 2018 in 12th place in the WDC where his “paydriver” teammate finished 8th 4 places above Ocon.

Some people seem to defend Ocon blindly but it’s so hard for them to come to realize that he is not as good as they think he is, he is surely not world champion material, was he as good as some people think he is, in 2018 Ferrari would choose him over LeClerc or Mercedes would had release Bottas like Ferrari released Kimi to make space for LeClerc or even RB would had choose him over Gasly or Renault would choose his “potential” (whatever that means) over Ricciardo, but teams don’t think he is the next big thing and don’t see the “potential” (whatever that means) a lot of his fans says he has, unlike drivers like Max or Lewis which if they are found in a similar situation no team would question to sign them straight away.

So yeah I’m super happy Ocon is out of Formula 1 in order to see Racing Point survive, his employees and families keep their jobs, Formula 1 keep another team even if that means having to have Stroll on the grid.


I wouldn't go as far as saying I'm happy Ocon is not in RP anymore, but I get the point of the survival of the team.

He is talented and he's good enough for a seat. Agree that he's not as good as some think and I think Verstappen was right about his character but I'd still like to see him in an F1 over the likes of Gasly or Stroll.

Checo shines with a strong opponent and Stroll is not. I think he will only stagnate while the other car is driven by Stroll. In that sense, I prefer Ocon over Stroll. But an F1 team needs money to run, so...

#174 messy

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 11:57

Perez must be so frustrated.

Who is next in the Toro Rosso prodigy upgrade camp?

I genuinely think Albon will be taking Gaslys seat by the end of the year, and I'm not convinced both of Kvyat and Gasly will be there for 2020. Perez would be such a solid choice for Toro Rosso, safe hands for any rookie to parallel. If they let Hartley run, Perez age should not be an issue for that sort of duo.

It's there or Haas if Grosjean keeps being Grosjean. But christ, imagine the on track fireworks between KMag and Perez.

 

This is modern era F1 innit. Driver's careers stall in the midfield and there they remain all their careers however well they do. The way the competitive order used to be, if you were, say, Jenson Button at BAR, you'd eventually get the chance for a breakthrough result or breakthrough season. Nowadays, the likes of Perez, Hulkenberg, Grosjean, will drive 200+ races in their F1 careers and will likely never get any further up the grid. 

 

I'm surprised more of them don't still choose to go to the WEC instead (at least up till a couple of years ago, anyway). An entire career finishing between fourth and tenth in F1 must get a bit frustrating especially if like Perez or Hulk you're doing a genuinely good job each year. 



#175 sopa

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 12:17

 

This is modern era F1 innit. Driver's careers stall in the midfield and there they remain all their careers however well they do. The way the competitive order used to be, if you were, say, Jenson Button at BAR, you'd eventually get the chance for a breakthrough result or breakthrough season. Nowadays, the likes of Perez, Hulkenberg, Grosjean, will drive 200+ races in their F1 careers and will likely never get any further up the grid. 

 

I'm surprised more of them don't still choose to go to the WEC instead (at least up till a couple of years ago, anyway). An entire career finishing between fourth and tenth in F1 must get a bit frustrating especially if like Perez or Hulk you're doing a genuinely good job each year. 

 

In the past we also used to have drivers stuck in midfield all career, i.e Heidfeld, Trulli, Panis, Brundle. Or at least they never got a car with which to challenge for the championship. But at least occasionally they could get cars with which to finish on podiums or they ended up on podiums in attrition races. Hulkenberg's 0 podiums is just a sad statement of modern era, and by the looks of it Sainz is going the same way.

 

As for not going to WEC or elsewhere, I think F1 is still such a high-profile series and it pays so well compared to anything else. WEC has very few races on the calendar per year and it's not that much of a challenge to cruise to P1/P2 in a Toyota with no competition.



#176 ANF

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 12:36

Nice rant, but seriously Ocon's ship has sailed as far as Racing Point is concerned. His all-round performance made him less valuable to the team than Perez.

Here's more on that valuable performance:

"The administration proceedings were triggered by Perez - who was owed salary payments - as part of an agreement with management to save the team, which was in financial difficulties related to the legal problems of then-owner Vijay Mallya.
In return, Perez was guaranteed a seat in 2019 at Force India, for whom his Mexican sponsorship backing is important."
https://www.bbc.com/...rmula1/45905584

"As was the case in previous years, the team waited to make an announcement [about the 2019 contract extension] until it had fully signed off deals with Perez’s Mexican sponsors."
https://www.motorspo...l-2019/3197123/

#177 Marklar

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 15:32

According to AMuS Montoya is trying to become Stroll's mental/driver coach (or whatever it's called these days).

#178 Viryfan

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 15:49

According to AMuS Montoya is trying to become Stroll's mental/driver coach (or whatever it's called these days).

 

 

So now Lance may have 3 driver coach:

 

Luca Baldissieri (former Ferrari engineer and strategist, former FDA chief)

Nuno De Sousa Pinto (driver coach at Winway)



#179 Paco

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 16:17

 

This is modern era F1 innit. Driver's careers stall in the midfield and there they remain all their careers however well they do. The way the competitive order used to be, if you were, say, Jenson Button at BAR, you'd eventually get the chance for a breakthrough result or breakthrough season. Nowadays, the likes of Perez, Hulkenberg, Grosjean, will drive 200+ races in their F1 careers and will likely never get any further up the grid. 

 

I'm surprised more of them don't still choose to go to the WEC instead (at least up till a couple of years ago, anyway). An entire career finishing between fourth and tenth in F1 must get a bit frustrating especially if like Perez or Hulk you're doing a genuinely good job each year. 

 

That is kind of true.  However, being linked from Early on to a program like Ferrari, Mercedes or RB is also a limiting factor.    That all said, drivers struck in the mid field are also a result of their inability to truly outshine their teammates.  The greats get a good shot at a top drive.  Occasionally like McLaren, the team screws it up but those are far few in between.

 

Max broke through fast.  Charlies broke through fast.  Lewis and Seb did long time ago.  If you're steller, you get noticed and get moved up very fast.  If youre really good, you may get a break.. if you're good then yeah you get stuck.

 

Who on the grid deserves a better ride after 3 years of experience..   I can not think of single rider other then perhaps Ocon doesn't deserve to be on the side like when guys Gros, Kubica, Gio, Gasly, Stroll are out there.  Gros mainly cause he's all over hte place (fast but man fustratingly boneheaded).

 

Max perhaps deserves a better ride but hard to say that for a RB ride.   There is no one else who deserves more then they have this year.  Next year, perhaps Russell should deserve to get out of Williams.. Albion is making a strong case for a RB A-team drive over Gasly..



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#180 HeadFirst

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 17:26

That is kind of true.  However, being linked from Early on to a program like Ferrari, Mercedes or RB is also a limiting factor.    That all said, drivers struck in the mid field are also a result of their inability to truly outshine their teammates.  The greats get a good shot at a top drive.  Occasionally like McLaren, the team screws it up but those are far few in between.

 

Max broke through fast.  Charlies broke through fast.  Lewis and Seb did long time ago.  If you're steller, you get noticed and get moved up very fast.  If youre really good, you may get a break.. if you're good then yeah you get stuck.

 

Who on the grid deserves a better ride after 3 years of experience..   I can not think of single rider other then perhaps Ocon doesn't deserve to be on the side like when guys Gros, Kubica, Gio, Gasly, Stroll are out there.  Gros mainly cause he's all over hte place (fast but man fustratingly boneheaded).

 

Max perhaps deserves a better ride but hard to say that for a RB ride.   There is no one else who deserves more then they have this year.  Next year, perhaps Russell should deserve to get out of Williams.. Albion is making a strong case for a RB A-team drive over Gasly..

 

 

From the looks of Williams, even I would deserve a better drive, but I do agree Russel is making the most of his "opportunity". As for Gasly vs Albon, I think it is still too early to make that call. Albon has surprised me in a good way, and Gasly has been a disappointment (although I am not surprised), but things can change, and often do in F1.



#181 taran

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Posted 16 May 2019 - 09:38

That is kind of true.  However, being linked from Early on to a program like Ferrari, Mercedes or RB is also a limiting factor.    That all said, drivers struck in the mid field are also a result of their inability to truly outshine their teammates.  The greats get a good shot at a top drive.  Occasionally like McLaren, the team screws it up but those are far few in between.

 

Max broke through fast.  Charlies broke through fast.  Lewis and Seb did long time ago.  If you're steller, you get noticed and get moved up very fast.  If youre really good, you may get a break.. if you're good then yeah you get stuck.

 

Who on the grid deserves a better ride after 3 years of experience..   I can not think of single rider other then perhaps Ocon doesn't deserve to be on the side like when guys Gros, Kubica, Gio, Gasly, Stroll are out there.  Gros mainly cause he's all over hte place (fast but man fustratingly boneheaded).

 

Max perhaps deserves a better ride but hard to say that for a RB ride.   There is no one else who deserves more then they have this year.  Next year, perhaps Russell should deserve to get out of Williams.. Albion is making a strong case for a RB A-team drive over Gasly..

 

I would say Perez. The abortive year at McLaren has really damaged his reputation IMO. If you look at his actual results in the Sauber pre-McLaren and post-McLaren in mid-field teams, he has blown away all the so-called greats like Verstappen, Leclerc and potential greats like Gasly and Ocon. None of them scored podiums in their formative seasons yet they are lauded.

 

I would love to see him in a genuinely competitive car and see just how good or average he actually is.

 



#182 Paco

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Posted 16 May 2019 - 19:44

I would say Perez. The abortive year at McLaren has really damaged his reputation IMO. If you look at his actual results in the Sauber pre-McLaren and post-McLaren in mid-field teams, he has blown away all the so-called greats like Verstappen, Leclerc and potential greats like Gasly and Ocon. None of them scored podiums in their formative seasons yet they are lauded.

 

I would love to see him in a genuinely competitive car and see just how good or average he actually is.

 

 

He could barely handle Ocon and realistically didn't in 1lap pace.  Sorry, he's right where he should be.  Don't get me wrong, his handy racer but I don't think he has any merit to deserve a top 6 ride any longer but also, doesn't deserve to be further down the grid either.    Amazing how quickly people forget the previous season..

 

As for Stroll, seriously.. is his management bring in Montoya to tough this kid up.. WOW.. getting deseparate is daddy to make his son a competitive racer..  I don't see how Montoya is going to help Lance mind you in the current era of F1.. Juan was a hard racer and today's F1 penalized drivers trying to race these PU and Tires anything close to what he was used too.


Edited by Paco, 16 May 2019 - 19:45.


#183 coppilcus

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Posted 16 May 2019 - 20:37

He could barely handle Ocon and realistically didn't in 1lap pace.  Sorry, he's right where he should be.  Don't get me wrong, his handy racer but I don't think he has any merit to deserve a top 6 ride any longer but also, doesn't deserve to be further down the grid either.    Amazing how quickly people forget the previous season..
 
As for Stroll, seriously.. is his management bring in Montoya to tough this kid up.. WOW.. getting deseparate is daddy to make his son a competitive racer..  I don't see how Montoya is going to help Lance mind you in the current era of F1.. Juan was a hard racer and today's F1 penalized drivers trying to race these PU and Tires anything close to what he was used too.


Do you mean the season in which Perez beat Ocon for the second time?

#184 ARTGP

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Posted 16 May 2019 - 22:34

He could barely handle Ocon and realistically didn't in 1lap pace.  Sorry, he's right where he should be.  Don't get me wrong, his handy racer but I don't think he has any merit to deserve a top 6 ride any longer but also, doesn't deserve to be further down the grid either.    Amazing how quickly people forget the previous season..

 

As for Stroll, seriously.. is his management bring in Montoya to tough this kid up.. WOW.. getting deseparate is daddy to make his son a competitive racer..  I don't see how Montoya is going to help Lance mind you in the current era of F1.. Juan was a hard racer and today's F1 penalized drivers trying to race these PU and Tires anything close to what he was used too.

 

lol. Good ole' JPM!  He was the master of cold tires wasn't he. I wish he did more in his F1 career.  If Lance is going to be a JPM reboot, I'd be happy with that.



#185 theflyingwheel

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 00:22

He could barely handle Ocon and realistically didn't in 1lap pace. Sorry, he's right where he should be. Don't get me wrong, his handy racer but I don't think he has any merit to deserve a top 6 ride any longer but also, doesn't deserve to be further down the grid either. Amazing how quickly people forget the previous season..

As for Stroll, seriously.. is his management bring in Montoya to tough this kid up.. WOW.. getting deseparate is daddy to make his son a competitive racer.. I don't see how Montoya is going to help Lance mind you in the current era of F1.. Juan was a hard racer and today's F1 penalized drivers trying to race these PU and Tires anything close to what he was used too.


Do you mean the two seasons where Ocon got outscored by Perez ?
Or is it the season where Perez did a podium while Ocon crashed into 6 different drivers?
Maybe the season where Perez finished 8th while Ocon 12th ? Gez that season Perez could “barely handle” Ocon while Ocon went to loose vs not only his teammate but Magnussen, Alonso and Sainz.

#186 sopa

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 07:15

Not sure, why is here so much talk about Perez v Ocon. I guess Stroll's involvement in the battle has bored people out, so nothing to discuss about there.

 

In short - Ocon was better in qualis, Perez better in races. Overall it evened out. Ocon is quite a bottasesque driver IMHO. Good in qualis, but often goes missing in races.

 

Regarding Stroll the argument is that his qualifying average isn't much worse than Perez, who himself isn't a great qualifier. Well, does that make Stroll good or competitive in qualis? Nope. He is still one of the worst in the field, struggling to get out of Q1 every time, even if the deficit is smaller now. But it's Stroll's third season in F1 already, I think he is about as good as he is going to be.



#187 taran

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 07:26

I think you'd have to say Ocon and Perez were pretty evenly matched. Which IMO explains their fiery competition. Each of them needed to outshine the other to further their careers and both of them weren't achieving this to any great extent.

 

But I think we need to consider the possibility that Ocon is actually pretty good rather than just above average.

Mercedes likes him and they would have a pretty good insight into his abilities. So for Perez to match him tells me that Perez is also pretty good. 

 

The thing is, a one-off good result like Stroll scored, is something that can happen to any driver who keeps it on the track. But multiple excellent placings aren't luck. Yet Perez gets no or not enough credit for them IMO.

 

And we see it now with Stroll. Stroll is struggling to match Perez which is seen as Stroll not being good enough for F1 and not Perez being a very tough teammate to beat. Just ask Hulkenberg...



#188 Mohican

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 07:56

In addition to all that is said above, I really wonder if Lawrence Stroll is spending his money wisely. All the recent talk of a new factory at Silverstone is one thing, but the new RP hospitality unit...very big and shiny, and probably very expensive indeed.

And this week's Motor Sport mentions RP acquiring the ex-Mercedes pit wall assembly for a lot of money.

 

If you compare to Alfa Romeo Racing, they are still using the ex-BMW hospitality unit from 2006 - freshly resprayed to look new every year. And all these special treats for Stroll j:r surely do not come for free.

 

Having said that, I do agree that the Strolls deserve lots of kudos for saving a bankrupt team. I am sure that they do get that appreciation internally - and hopefully also from FOM, even though that is doubtful.



#189 Lights

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 08:00

Pérez won because when the car was capable to score big points, the Mexican fulfilled the potential of the car and Ocon did not: Baku and Spa. They were not allowed to race each other, Ocon qualified ahead and still managed to score less points than Perez, loosing fair and square for the second straight year.

Every time the Frenchman got the chance to score big points, he crashed into someone: Perez in Baku in 2017 and Raikonnen, gain at Baku, last season...

Every driver becomes the victim of bad luck or lousy pit stops or strategies from the pitwall, but Ocon can only blame himself and Perez for his defeats, not the number of adverts featuring Perez at the Mexican Grand Prix.

 

Why would that criteria be important for a top team? You always want your driver to be on it, not just a few races a year whenever a rare opportunity arises. That Ocon was better head to head yet lost in the points simply means that when he was the better driver, big points or points at all weren't always on the table on that day based on how competitive FI was. In a top team big amount of points are always there, and the point standings between them might've looked different had they scored those all year.

 

The not being allowed to race each other is an interesting factor but is not proof for that Perez otherwise would have managed to overtake Ocon. So in races where that happened and Ocon finished ahead, it's still Ocon that was the better driver that weekend in getting the maximum result. Qualifying is important at a top team too, often leads to getting the better strategy etc.



#190 Paco

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 12:07

Not sure, why is here so much talk about Perez v Ocon. I guess Stroll's involvement in the battle has bored people out, so nothing to discuss about there.

 

In short - Ocon was better in qualis, Perez better in races. Overall it evened out. Ocon is quite a bottasesque driver IMHO. Good in qualis, but often goes missing in races.

 

Regarding Stroll the argument is that his qualifying average isn't much worse than Perez, who himself isn't a great qualifier. Well, does that make Stroll good or competitive in qualis? Nope. He is still one of the worst in the field, struggling to get out of Q1 every time, even if the deficit is smaller now. But it's Stroll's third season in F1 already, I think he is about as good as he is going to be.

 

Why there talk of Perez vs Ocon.. cause many here are trying to paint a picture that is false that Perez deserves anything more then he has been given.  He could never outshine Ocon, the back and forth about that just proves the case that he doesn't deserve a better ride when it's split who was the better driver and realstically the best conclusion as you stated is that they were good for each other and each had good attributes.  Doesn't make for a STAND OUT driver deserving of more.

 

Why reason No.2  becasuse Stroll is slow and would be way better for the team if they had kept the lineup as it was.  So for some Fans of the team that care more about their performance it sucks slow poke gets to ride the car and cost the team points cause dad owns it.  Yes, It's nice the team was saved (even though there was another party that could have saved it as well but Stroll Sr. is probably a  better option) but sucks they "forced* to take on a driver that has shown to be a 1 trick pony and generally terribly the majority of the time

 

So.. while Stroll is slow.. the discussion of Ocon will persist.  So while people make silly comments that Perez is better then the results he has shown and deserving of a significantly better ride.. the discussion will persist.


Edited by Paco, 17 May 2019 - 12:11.


#191 taran

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 12:29

Why there talk of Perez vs Ocon.. cause many here are trying to paint a picture that is false that Perez deserves anything more then he has been given.  He could never outshine Ocon, the back and forth about that just proves the case that he doesn't deserve a better ride when it's split who was the better driver and realstically the best conclusion as you stated is that they were good for each other and each had good attributes.  Doesn't make for a STAND OUT driver deserving of more.

 

Why reason No.2  becasuse Stroll is slow and would be way better for the team if they had kept the lineup as it was.  So for some Fans of the team that care more about their performance it sucks slow poke gets to ride the car and cost the team points cause dad owns it.  Yes, It's nice the team was saved (even though there was another party that could have saved it as well but Stroll Sr. is probably a  better option) but sucks they "forced* to take on a driver that has shown to be a 1 trick pony and generally terribly the majority of the time

 

So.. while Stroll is slow.. the discussion of Ocon will persist.  So while people make silly comments that Perez is better then the results he has shown and deserving of a significantly better ride.. the discussion will persist.

 

Yes, the discussion will persist. And thank God. In your world view, Senna and Prost were nothing much because they were unable to outshine each other.

I get that you don't think much of Perez. I just don't understand why.

We haven't been able to see him in a winning car so we don't really know how good, bad or average he is.

All we do know is that he has matched or beaten all his teammates before and after McLaren (and if you look at Magnussen and Vandoorne that was some kind of poisoned chalice) and some of them were very highly regarded before going up against him. Funny that their reputation is tarnished instead of Perez' reputation being improved.....



#192 messy

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 12:52

The Ocon v Perez discussion persists because, sadly, the 2019 head to head between Perez and Stroll is a non-event.

 

As a Stroll-defender generally, I've gotta concede that his performance has been lame this season. Terrible qualifier. 



#193 Celloman

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 13:23

Why there talk of Perez vs Ocon.. cause many here are trying to paint a picture that is false that Perez deserves anything more then he has been given.  He could never outshine Ocon, the back and forth about that just proves the case that he doesn't deserve a better ride when it's split who was the better driver and realstically the best conclusion as you stated is that they were good for each other and each had good attributes.  Doesn't make for a STAND OUT driver deserving of more.

Well let's for the sake of this argument assume that Perez and Ocon are about in the same ballpark in terms of driving skills. It still doesn't mean that Perez doesn't deserve anything better. Heck, Pierre Gasly is now driving a Red Bull and is consistently lapping over 0.5 seconds slower in qualifying than his team-mate. I have no doubt Perez could do better even in his first race in a Red Bull, same story with Ocon. Actually I think Ocon and Perez could also perform as well as Bottas has over the past two seasons, so there's already two top seats that they could deserve in my view. And you could easily include the Ferrari seat of Raikkonen as well, I have little doubt both would have scored more points than Kimi. IMO Ricciardo's move to Renault has highlighted how competitive midfield drivers like Hülkenberg are. Most are way underrated only because they never get to show their skills in a proper car.


Edited by Celloman, 17 May 2019 - 13:27.


#194 Paco

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 14:37

Well let's for the sake of this argument assume that Perez and Ocon are about in the same ballpark in terms of driving skills. It still doesn't mean that Perez doesn't deserve anything better. Heck, Pierre Gasly is now driving a Red Bull and is consistently lapping over 0.5 seconds slower in qualifying than his team-mate. I have no doubt Perez could do better even in his first race in a Red Bull, same story with Ocon. Actually I think Ocon and Perez could also perform as well as Bottas has over the past two seasons, so there's already two top seats that they could deserve in my view. And you could easily include the Ferrari seat of Raikkonen as well, I have little doubt both would have scored more points than Kimi. IMO Ricciardo's move to Renault has highlighted how competitive midfield drivers like Hülkenberg are. Most are way underrated only because they never get to show their skills in a proper car.

 

The Ocon Gasly situations are one of the issues facing F1 and probably the harder one to deal with.. young drivers need funding and support but its a double whammy when you get to the upper levels with only 2-4 seats.. that tie up then becomes a hinderince occasionally.     Gasly flopped, huge and is something I never got why he was placed there to begin with out then appeasing Helmet and his driver development program and justifying it.   However, he is up against a strong Max so it could be just that Max is pulling out a lot and Pierre struggling a bit which makes it worse.  Even Dan couldnt hold a stick to Max in quali a lot last year so Gasly was always going to be in for a hard time.

 

Bottas was tied to Toto.. so no surprise he got the call and got clobbered.  He was beyond lucky to be retain this season and the next few races will determine if he gets to stay until 2021.  I can not see why he wouldn't even though F1 would like someone else in their that might give Hamilton a hard time over a whole season, if there is anyone other then Max and Charles capable of that..

 

Driver ties up to development programs is a huge issue but frankly, a probable necessary evil at this point in time.  Drivers getting to race around cause of daddy can loosely fall into that as well but way more fustrating then what's happened to driver tie ups.

 

Perez vs Max... omg.. Seriously.. have you watched F1 unbiased for the past few years.  Max clobbered Dan in 1lap pace (Not unlike Ocon did to Perez) and is one of the best racers out there, look at this season alone and what's he's nailed down.  Perez would be destroyed like Vandoorne was by Alonso if he partnered up with Max.  So Perez would start behind Max all the time, need to make up spots in race days against very good cars with much smaller lap deltas (then he is used to now by a mile) making passing that much harder so he'd hardly every get even a sniff at being side by side with Max let alone ahead.



#195 Nathan

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 16:10

You're so quick to dismiss the quality of a driver it is clear you don't really understand the craft.  

 

Williams gave the kid (cough cough dad did) soo much extra time with older chassis and he still can't find his fast legs..  it became evident at Williams very quickly and as much at RP, the kid is just not very good and kind of a1 trick pony and daddy in a big pickle on how to fire his son..

 

You talk like the kid is Pedro Diniz.  Poor taste.  DC was never a good qualifier but had a fine career.  



#196 theflyingwheel

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 16:47

Why there talk of Perez vs Ocon.. cause many here are trying to paint a picture that is false that Perez deserves anything more then he has been given. He could never outshine Ocon, the back and forth about that just proves the case that he doesn't deserve a better ride when it's split who was the better driver and realstically the best conclusion as you stated is that they were good for each other and each had good attributes. Doesn't make for a STAND OUT driver deserving of more.

Why reason No.2 becasuse Stroll is slow and would be way better for the team if they had kept the lineup as it was. So for some Fans of the team that care more about their performance it sucks slow poke gets to ride the car and cost the team points cause dad owns it. Yes, It's nice the team was saved (even though there was another party that could have saved it as well but Stroll Sr. is probably a better option) but sucks they "forced* to take on a driver that has shown to be a 1 trick pony and generally terribly the majority of the time

So.. while Stroll is slow.. the discussion of Ocon will persist. So while people make silly comments that Perez is better then the results he has shown and deserving of a significantly better ride.. the discussion will persist.


Where is Ocon podium or Ocon beating a teammate for the first time in 2.5 seasons if he is that good tho ?

#197 Paco

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 17:06

Where is Ocon podium or Ocon beating a teammate for the first time in 2.5 seasons if he is that good tho ?

 

Like I said, people can see things however they please.. i just do not see Perez as being at this point in his career worthy of those top 6 drives.  As for Ocon, maybe.. maybe not but he did show more outright speed then Perez.  Champ.. probably not, good 2nd points collector.. sure.  More deserving then probably a 1/3 of the grid racing today.. absolutely.    Does Ocon deserve to be on the grid if Stroll is out there.. ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT.. there is no world in which Lance should be in a seat and Ocon not



#198 BRG

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 17:11

You talk like the kid is Pedro Diniz.  Poor taste.  DC was never a good qualifier but had a fine career.  

All the talk about Stroll being a poor qualifier conveniently overlooks that he is probably the best on the grid over the first lap.  In fact, during his time in F1, he may well have made up more places on the first lap than anyone else.  Certainly more than Hamilton!   ;)

 

In Barcelona, despite a poor grid slot, at the end of lap 1 he was right on Perez's gearbox.  Of course, had he qualified better, he might have been way ahead of Perez after lap 1 but that is his burden to overcome.  He does need to do better in qualifying though if he is to achieve any solid results.



#199 theflyingwheel

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 17:14

Like I said, people can see things however they please.. i just do not see Perez as being at this point in his career worthy of those top 6 drives. As for Ocon, maybe.. maybe not but he did show more outright speed then Perez. Champ.. probably not, good 2nd points collector.. sure. More deserving then probably a 1/3 of the grid racing today.. absolutely. Does Ocon deserve to be on the grid if Stroll is out there.. ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT.. there is no world in which Lance should be in a seat and Ocon not


Of course people can see things how they please that’s why some people prefer to see objective numbers which state that Perez did a podium in the same car as Ocon and he beated for 2 years straight and in 2018 finishing 8th while Ocon 12 rather than on subjective opinions that they “perceive” he is faster despite his numbers showing different.

I agree Ocon is a better candidate than Lance, despite Lance having the podium Ocon could had got for himself instead of being super erratic and crashing into his teammate or in the exact same race next year crashing into Kimi but hey, Ocon has the potential (whatever that is).

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#200 messy

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 19:20

All the talk about Stroll being a poor qualifier conveniently overlooks that he is probably the best on the grid over the first lap.  In fact, during his time in F1, he may well have made up more places on the first lap than anyone else.  Certainly more than Hamilton!   ;)
 
In Barcelona, despite a poor grid slot, at the end of lap 1 he was right on Perez's gearbox.  Of course, had he qualified better, he might have been way ahead of Perez after lap 1 but that is his burden to overcome.  He does need to do better in qualifying though if he is to achieve any solid results.


I don't think it's conveniently forgetting that - they're two different things entirely. And as you said, if he qualified better he'd be even further ahead at the end of lap one...

There's also the argument that it's easier to make up early places from that far back if you're essentially out of position in a quick car. But that'd overlook the fact that for all he's rubbish over a qualifying lap, Stroll has a lot to like. He's a good racer, brave overtaker, consistent over a race distance and seems to will his car up the field on the first lap like he's playing on his Xbox.

But I'm struggling to see how Perez has done anything this season but prove that he's a class above and that's gotta be an issue for Stroll Sr. On paper, this was a good pairing for his lad because Perez himself is not renowned as a fast qualifier and indeed was beaten quite comprehensively by Ocon in that respect in 2018. Two drivers with a similar skillset on paper. Pair Stroll with someone like Ocon and he'd be on the receiving end of a 20-0 potentially, Perez works.

Except he doesn't, because Perez is still much better. I've always liked Perez, you look at someone like Hulkenberg or particularly Magnussen and they've got their supporters who'll tell you that they're a World Champion in waiting and performing 10/10 heroics in a sh*tbox car, and I think much as they're good drivers, it's generally little more than fanboy ramblings really - but in Perez you have someone who is delivering year in year out and still despite that is getting nowhere further up the grid. He got podiums and nearly won in a Sauber, then jumped into a McLaren and matched Jenson Button (not good enough there, though) before beating Hulkenberg and Ocon more often than not over about two decades at Force India. A handful of podiums and a low profile are all he really has to show from it.

Oh, ok, and a couple of penthouses and a Maserati and stuff, but y'know.