9 replies to this topic

[KWSN - DSM]

Carrying this one over from the Red Bull tech thread, with credit to A3 for posting it ( https://forums.autos...rb15/?p=8683589 )

 

So below the top speed for all drivers in the Australian GP, I may not truly understand what advantage there is in top speed if it does not correlate to a fast lap. And then when looking at fast and slow I do not understand what I am looking at, or at least not the real meaning in it,

 

Fastest top speed Gasly, who is fastest speed across finish line as well intermediate 2, with Verstappen fastest in intermediate 1. So Red Bull and Honda is fast, one finish 11, and one 3rd. Do I see their speed as a negative, as in they need to take wing of? Or a positive being able to handle corners without sacrificiong speed through downforce? Is it thend aero of mechanical grip which 'works'.

 

Bottas is 11th and Hamilton 14th, they have the two fastest laps in the race... how does that correlate to top speed?

 

Magnussen 20th 30 km slower in the speed trap than Gasly, he is 18th 20 km slower across the finish line, 16th in intermediate 1 and 18th in intermediate 2. He had a lonely race in 6th from first corner, Hulkenberg was never really a factor, must have had very little DRS.

 

Apart from Magnussen being slowest, he has Leclerc, Giovinazzi and Vettel as 19th, 18th and 17th in front of him... common denominator is Ferrari engine... does this then reflect on the engine?

 

Where I am coming from, or at least partly is my likely non-understanding of high speeds, thinking fastest were often compromised aerodynamically carrying little wing, to get the speed on straights, sacrificing corners with intent to make lap overall faster through that.

 

The times from yesterday do not seem to back that up, and are non-intuitive to me. Anyone who can explain what I should be looking for in top speed as an indication of anything significant will be appreciated, since I have by and large considered it something which had no real bearing on the cars performance.

 

 

 

 

[ArrowsLivery]

Top speeds in the race are not useful at all. The drivers at the top were most likely stuck behind somebody slow and had a big tow and DRS to help them out. But that doesn’t necessarily correlate to a fast lap because they’ll be losing downforce in the corners. Which is why you see Hamilton and Bottas towards the bottom while somebody like Kvyat, who spend a lot of time in a “DRS-train” high up the chart.

Qualifying top speeds are much more useful, as everybody should be able to get a clean lap with DRS and without dirty air.

[Scotracer]

Top speeds in the race are not useful at all. The drivers at the top were most likely stuck behind somebody slow and had a big tow and DRS to help them out. But that doesn’t necessarily correlate to a fast lap because they’ll be losing downforce in the corners. Which is why you see Hamilton and Bottas towards the bottom while somebody like Kvyat, who spend a lot of time in a “DRS-train” high up the chart.

Qualifying top speeds are much more useful, as everybody should be able to get a clean lap with DRS and without dirty air.

 

This.

[Requiem84]

Carrying this one over from the Red Bull tech thread, with credit to A3 for posting it ( https://forums.autos...rb15/?p=8683589 )

 

So below the top speed for all drivers in the Australian GP, I may not truly understand what advantage there is in top speed if it does not correlate to a fast lap. And then when looking at fast and slow I do not understand what I am looking at, or at least not the real meaning in it,

 

Fastest top speed Gasly, who is fastest speed across finish line as well intermediate 2, with Verstappen fastest in intermediate 1. So Red Bull and Honda is fast, one finish 11, and one 3rd. Do I see their speed as a negative, as in they need to take wing of? Or a positive being able to handle corners without sacrificiong speed through downforce? Is it thend aero of mechanical grip which 'works'.

 

Bottas is 11th and Hamilton 14th, they have the two fastest laps in the race... how does that correlate to top speed?

 

Magnussen 20th 30 km slower in the speed trap than Gasly, he is 18th 20 km slower across the finish line, 16th in intermediate 1 and 18th in intermediate 2. He had a lonely race in 6th from first corner, Hulkenberg was never really a factor, must have had very little DRS.

 

Apart from Magnussen being slowest, he has Leclerc, Giovinazzi and Vettel as 19th, 18th and 17th in front of him... common denominator is Ferrari engine... does this then reflect on the engine?

 

Where I am coming from, or at least partly is my likely non-understanding of high speeds, thinking fastest were often compromised aerodynamically carrying little wing, to get the speed on straights, sacrificing corners with intent to make lap overall faster through that.

 

The times from yesterday do not seem to back that up, and are non-intuitive to me. Anyone who can explain what I should be looking for in top speed as an indication of anything significant will be appreciated, since I have by and large considered it something which had no real bearing on the cars performance.

 

 

 

Top speeds are an interesting piece of data to look into. 

 

Qualifying problaby is a better benchmark, since the circumstances are pretty much equal for all teams (best engine mode on, drs open in drs zones). 

 

Another interesting part for me is the sector speed traps. Especially if they are not in a DRS zone (e.g., S1 and S2, whereas S3 is on s/f line which is already a DRS area).

 

Finally, high top speeds mean very little in terms of outright lap time. Teams aim to set-up their car for the fastest lap time. Often this means being a little bit slower on the straight. The limit for this is being so slow that the race (top) speed would make them vulnerable - this is why RB claimed to make a lot of compromises last years in their set-up. 

[goldenboy]

I have never bothered looking at them much.

[peroa]

In regards to RBR, Marko said after the race that they brought/have too little downforce on the car because of the past years compensating the engine disadvantage.

They will bring more in the coming races because the engine can handle it now.

[anyeis]

Its about acceleration to top speed from corner exits. It dosent mean much if higher absolute top speed is achieved later than a lower absolute top speed.

Edited by anyeis, 19 March 2019 - 10:13.

[r4mses]

Those top speeds in race are totally pointless - unless they start to award a point for the highest top speed. 

[Sterzo]

As others have highlighted, It's impossible for us to make much sense of top speed information. To an engineer with comprehensive comparative data, it's no doubt interesting.

 

If your latest aerodynamic tweak gives reduced drag without losing downforce, that's a gain worth having and it will help laptime. If your engine mapping gives increased top speed without compromising torque, drivability, or fuel consumption, again you'll get an improvement in lap speed.

[Afterburner]

In principle, top speed is probably the most important attribute of a racing vehicle, followed by braking and acceleration, because 1) a power advantage applies to the highest percentage of a lap and 2) most passing is done on straights leading into corners. The McLarens of 2010-2012 and especially the Williamses of 2014-2016 displayed this quite well, as even though their cornering speeds were lacking relative to their opposition, they were pretty much impossible to pass because they were the fastest in the overtaking zones. I remember many times we saw a Red Bull in particular with its DRS open still trailing these cars on a straight only to be completely bottled up behind them in the corners.

In practice, F1 being so reliant on aero kind of turns this on its head, because good aero = good lap time = better qualifying = no need to pass people on track due to disruption of the trailing car's aero. A certain pace differential between two cars is required to facilitate an overtake, and it's easier to obtain that in clean air than it is behind another car where you lose a certain amount of lap time just through the act of following, so most of the teams try passing in the pits rather than on-track.

So to answer your question, I'd say these numbers are basically irrelevant, because of 'contamination' from DRS and there not enough difference between them to mean anything in terms of lap time; the speed traps really need to be placed at the apexes of each of the corners...