34 replies to this topic

[Jon Saltinstall]

For a while I've had this image in my archive, but have been unable to identify where & when it was taken? It shows Niki Lauda at the wheel of what appears to be the 1908 Grand Prix Mercedes that has been sporadically demonstrated at Historic events. Can anyone cast any light on the story behind this particular image, please?

 

[Tim Murray]

The cockpit doesn’t look right for the 1908 GP Mercedes:



It looks to me more like the Benz from the same race:

[Jon Saltinstall]

Would agree, Tim, but I'm still none the wiser as to where and when the Lauda picture was taken. I'm guessing at a pre-race demonstration, but haven't yet found an account of it.....

[Charlieman]

The banner and flag in the background look like "Porsche" to me. Can anyone identify the cap Lauda is wearing?

[Jon Saltinstall]

Good shout - I think it's an Oerlikon cap, so that may help us with the date? His contract with Oerlikon ran from January 2007 - December 2010 (in 2011 he was wearing a blue "Money Services" cap) so it looks like our picture is from that 4-year window......

Edited by Jon Saltinstall, 19 March 2019 - 15:58.

[Doug Nye]

I sense Hockenheim...  Definitely a 1908 GP Benz - or an extensive 'restoration' of one,since none of the three race cars matched that pattern of bolts on the right-side of the chassis frame, within the spare wheel in that modern-era M-B Museum pic.  The Fritz Erle car which finished 7th passed into our National Motor Museum at Beauleu, and is now in the Keller Collection in California.  Here they are in finishing order, 1908, as photographed by the great Maurice-Louis Branger:

 

Victor Hemery - 2nd

 

 

Rene Hanriot - 3rd

 

 

Fritz Erle - 7th

 

 

Photos: The GP Library Collection (GPL)

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 19 March 2019 - 22:37.

[ensign14]

The TASO Mathieson book on those early Grands Prix has those sorts of pics, it's a genuine time machine, so clear and evocative. 

 

And it's still weird to me to see Mercedes and Benz as different companies.

[Doug Nye]

Yes - my 800-odd Branger glass-plate negatives were TASO's, way back...

 

DCN

[bradbury west]

Most appreciated here , Doug, that you share your archives so generously.
As an aside, how big a job is it to convert glass plate negs to photo format?. I know how careful you have to be doing slide negs on a strip, from experience with original gems which have come my way for my preferred small marque.
Roger Lund

Edit spl.

Edited by bradbury west, 20 March 2019 - 09:55.

[Jon Saltinstall]

Cheers Doug - very insightful, and thanks for posting those images - I wonder if more recent images will stand up with such crystal-clarity 110 years later?

 

Turning back to the Lauda image, educated guesswork would suggest Hockenheim 2008 (for the centenary of the 1908 Grand Prix and ease of logistics for such a rare beast).  Although Lauda didn't take a role at M-B until 2012, he did appear at the German Grand Prix parade in 2009 at the wheel of a W196 (the same chassis, incidentally, he'd briefly turned out in at Long Beach in 1976) so was already close to them. Doesn't explain why I can't find any other references or images though!

[Odseybod]

Thanks for introducing me to the work of M. Branger, Doug, a snapper of whom I shamefully knew nuttin'.  Now Lartigue has a rival ...

[Doug Nye]

Branger was quite remarkable.  Conversion of his glass-plate negs to photo format is easy peasy if you use the appropriate scanner - or the appropriate enlarger, photographic paper and chemical baths for a print.  

 

There is some notion of producing a book of Branger's work, but interest in images of 100-year-old racing cars might be even lower than interest in a book on Formula First - (or maybe Formula E - or, whisper it, even on Formula W    ).  Here's some background on Branger...(pron 'Brawn-zhay', of course)

 

"Born in Fontainebleau, France, in 1874 Branger began to work as a photographer around 1895. In 1905 he created his ‘Photopresse’ photo reportage agency at 5 Rue Cambon, a side road adjacent to the central Tuileries Gardens, in Paris. He was a versatile and almost hyper-active photographer, covering the main events of Paris life, most famously the flood of 1910, but also criminal affairs and trials, cultural and political life and numerous sporting events. He seems to have developed a particular taste for pioneering motor sport events from 1902, and he followed this majestic subject Internationally until 1914. He earned particular prominence for his work from the battlefields in the First World War, and later returned to covering trials and political life in Paris. Having survived a second World War, he died in 1950, in Mantes la Jolie. His motor racing work has been virtually unseen by the general public for 100 years. The GP Library Collection holds approximately 800 of his 5 x 4 glass plate images, captured by him during the period 1902-1914 – recording the truly Heroic Age of the dawn of motor racing. These glass plates are the particularly prized foundation of the GP Library. They are of quite extraordinary, haunting, quality and have survived in remarkable condition..."

 

And here are some of his glass-plate negs - with my clumsy digits providing some scale...

 

 

 

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 20 March 2019 - 23:26.

[Odseybod]

Thanks for that, Doug. i did a bit of Googling and found an interesting selection of his other images, not just the motoring ones you look after but also showing everyday life in Paris, on the beach, etc. Quite wonderful. I could understand the limited appeal of a book of pre-WW1 motoring images - well, outside these four walls, anyway - but I'd have thought his more general work would by now have appeared in a series of hefty (and pricey) tomes. But apparently not - at least, according to Bookfinder.com.

[bradbury west]

I will order my copy of such a book now, Doug. Are these the glass plates which tested the Rover springs more than somewhat?
Roger Lund.

[Doug Nye]

No Roger - that was another half-ton of glass negs, salvaged from an about-to-be demolished darkroom in darkest, deepest Soho.  While loading the SD1, boxer Frank Bruno walked past, carrying the first mobile phone I had seen if you discount walkie-talkie military radios. It hung from a strap over his shoulder, looked as if it weighed 5 or 6 pounds, and had a traditional-style handset.  

 

When would that have been - around 1981-82 perhaps?

 

DCN

[Jon Saltinstall]

Now just to add a further twist to this story, at the 2014 Goodwood Festival of Speed Martin Viessmann (president & CEO of the family German Heating System Company that bears his name, and sponsor of Lauda's cap 2002-2006) demonstrated one of the 1908 Mercedes Grand Prix cars. Coincidence or something more?

 

Still no wiser about the Lauda / Benz photo - have written to the Mercedes-Benz museum to see if they can enlighten me. 

Edited by Jon Saltinstall, 26 March 2019 - 16:26.

[Ralf Pickel]

If I see that correctly, Lauda is wearing his permanent F1 ID around his neck. Lauda has been at all GPs prior to his Mercedes role as expert for RTL Germany.

I would assume the occasion has been a German GP after Mercedes came back as a works team - possibly in 2010 ? That would also connect with the Porsche flags - Porsche Supercup is a feature at most GPs.

And with his connections to Viessmann that would explain him driving that car.

[cpbell]

I sense Hockenheim...  Definitely a 1908 GP Benz - or an extensive 'restoration' of one,since none of the three race cars matched that pattern of bolts on the right-side of the chassis frame, within the spare wheel in that modern-era M-B Museum pic.  The Fritz Erle car which finished 7th passed into our National Motor Museum at Beauleu, and is now in the Keller Collection in California.  Here they are in finishing order, 1908, as photographed by the great Maurice-Louis Branger:

 

 

I have nothing substantive to type, but felt I had to offer my thanks for posting these stunning images, Doug!

Edited by cpbell, 26 March 2019 - 18:32.

[Tim Murray]

Now just to add a further twist to this story, at the 2014 Goodwood Festival of Speed Martin Viessmann (president & CEO of the family German Heating System Company that bears his name, and sponsor of Lauda's cap 2002-2006) demonstrated one of the 1908 Mercedes Grand Prix cars. Coincidence or something more?

Viessmann’s 1908 Mercedes (and his W125) have been regulars at the FoS in recent years, so my first thought on reading your OP was that he might be the link. However, I’m not aware that he owns a 1908 Benz.

[Jon Saltinstall]

He's definitely wearing an Oerlikon - not a Viessmann - cap in the photo, so that dates it 2007 or later as discussed above. Ralf's suggestion for 2010 thus makes some sense, given the F1 ID lanyard and the other connections. That gives me another avenue to try to explore 

[Paul Taylor]

Why don't you contact the photographer and ask?: https://www.instagra...lhelm_wolfgang/

[Lee Nicolle]

And how is Mr Lauda currently. F1 needs him!

Those glass plates are giving excellent pics  a 100 years later. 

Though we now take far better pics with our phones! Which weigh less than one of those plates.

[Jon Saltinstall]

Why don't you contact the photographer and ask?: https://www.instagra...lhelm_wolfgang/

 

Thanks Paul - Fozzy had suggested the same thing to me separately; I've messaged Wolfgang Wilhelm, but unfortunately he hasn't (yet) replied.......

Edited by Jon Saltinstall, 27 March 2019 - 08:30.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle
.....we now take far better pics with our phones! Which weigh less than one of those plates.

There are many who would argue this simply isn't true...

That's why anyone wanting decent photos uses something called a 'camera'.

[Doug Nye]

The Viessmann 1908-type GP Mercedes is - I believe - a replica built for Herr Viessmann by the Daimler-Benz Oldtimer Centre. He drove it in the 2008 Centenary event at Dieppe, commemorating the 1908 Grand Prix. I think his Viessmann company in Germany makes central heating gas boilers, etc.

DCN

[BRG]

Though we now take far better pics with our phones! Which weigh less than one of those plates.

The problem is, how many of all these billions of shots taken today will survive?  They are just bits of data on a phone, or on Instagram or somewhere, and then someone deletes them.  A hefty glass plate, or even a slide had a physical presence and people are slower to dump them. 

 

Ah, 21st century problems....

Edited by BRG, 27 March 2019 - 18:05.

[ensign14]

Other than Shackleton, but he had good reasons.

[Allan Lupton]

The problem is, how many of all these billions of shots taken today will survive?  They are just bits of data on a phone, or on Instagram or somewhere, and then someone deletes them.  A hefty glass plate, or even a slide had a physical presence and people are slower to dump them. 

 

Ah, 21st century problems....

What's more you can see that a real photo is a photo without any apparatus and will be able to do so sine die. All the tape/magnetic disc/CD/chip-held data is only identifiable with the appropriate apparatus and how will you know which to use when a year or two have passed?

[Tim Murray]

The Viessmann 1908-type GP Mercedes is - I believe - a replica built for Herr Viessmann by the Daimler-Benz Oldtimer Centre. He drove it in the 2008 Centenary event at Dieppe, commemorating the 1908 Grand Prix. I think his Viessmann company in Germany makes central heating gas boilers, etc.

DCN

A long time ago, Doug, you told us that most of the major items on the Viessmann Mercedes were genuine, apart from the engine:

This is German heating industrialist Herr Viessmann's new-build 1908-type Mercedes based upon an original chassis, gearbox, countershaft etc with a faithful repro engine made for him by the Daimler-Mercedes Classic division.

[Doug Nye]

Aaaah - in that case (quoted much closer to the event) I certainly stand corrected. Faltering memory...(aaaarrrggh...have we had lunch yet, nurse?)

 

DCN

[Lee Nicolle]

The problem is, how many of all these billions of shots taken today will survive?  They are just bits of data on a phone, or on Instagram or somewhere, and then someone deletes them.  A hefty glass plate, or even a slide had a physical presence and people are slower to dump them. 

 

Ah, 21st century problems....

My father had thousands of slides. And all of them are now very poor. Always stored in dark cupboards in the house.The oldest are over 50 y/0 the newest around 25.

The same with film negatives. I hunted through the hundreds I have to get some new prints done and are very poor. Even my photos in my photo albums are all yellow and losing color.

All of my digital pics, some going back 15 years are still ok. Both on disc and simply in the computer. remains to be seen how long they do last I suspect. Though at my age I doubt I will see them at 50 y/o!

[ChrisJson]

Branger was quite remarkable.  Conversion of his glass-plate negs to photo format is easy peasy if you use the appropriate scanner - or the appropriate enlarger, photographic paper and chemical baths for a print.  

 

There is some notion of producing a book of Branger's work, but interest in images of 100-year-old racing cars might be even lower than interest in a book on Formula First - (or maybe Formula E - or, whisper it, even on Formula W    ).  Here's some background on Branger...(pron 'Brawn-zhay', of course)

 

"Born in Fontainebleau, France, in 1874 Branger began to work as a photographer around 1895. In 1905 he created his ‘Photopresse’ photo reportage agency at 5 Rue Cambon, a side road adjacent to the central Tuileries Gardens, in Paris. He was a versatile and almost hyper-active photographer, covering the main events of Paris life, most famously the flood of 1910, but also criminal affairs and trials, cultural and political life and numerous sporting events. He seems to have developed a particular taste for pioneering motor sport events from 1902, and he followed this majestic subject Internationally until 1914. He earned particular prominence for his work from the battlefields in the First World War, and later returned to covering trials and political life in Paris. Having survived a second World War, he died in 1950, in Mantes la Jolie. His motor racing work has been virtually unseen by the general public for 100 years. The GP Library Collection holds approximately 800 of his 5 x 4 glass plate images, captured by him during the period 1902-1914 – recording the truly Heroic Age of the dawn of motor racing. These glass plates are the particularly prized foundation of the GP Library. They are of quite extraordinary, haunting, quality and have survived in remarkable condition..."

 

And here are some of his glass-plate negs - with my clumsy digits providing some scale...

 

 

 

 

DCN

 

Doug, as a swede I'm interested to know which part did REKO-FOTO & ARKITEKTURKOPIA AB have in this save?

 

Christer

[Steve L]

There was an early Mercedes or Benz GP car which went to the USA in period and had an Hispano V8 aero engine fitted then. This survived until the 2000s in wonderful as last raced condition. It was the sold back to Germany and "restored" ie ruined back to original GP condition...

[Michael Ferner]

Not actually a Grand Prix car, but a "sports car" replica of the 1908 GP Mercedes, known as the 18/30 iirc. Allegedly the car owned and raced by Spencer Wishart in the Vanderbilt Cup and the first Indy 500, but I have never seen any proof of that contention. As a Hisso, it was a pretty well known commodity in the Eastern US during the twenties, and should have been conserved as such. The perversities of the Historic Racing Car market, unfortunately...

Edited by Michael Ferner, 28 March 2019 - 15:28.

[Doug Nye]

Exactly right Michael.  

 

ChrisJson - REKO-Foto appear merely to have been the suppliers of the (presumably) acid-free tissue negative wallets which I believe were acquired by TASO Mathieson to house and preserve these glass-plate negatives.  Good contemporary museum and archive practise.

 

DCN