34 replies to this topic

[Hati]

I'm thinking of buying a new gear shifter for sim racing and the cheap one that I'm thinking has a seven speed plate (+reverse). That got me thinking, if I buy a shifter with six speed pattern how many cars there are to be simulated that the shifter can't handle? I know that there are automatic and semiautomatic gear boxes that have more than six gears but has there ever been a manual gearbox? Six speeds you see every once in a while, I've even owned one, but what's most in cars. (And I'm limiting this to cars, trucks and tractors have more more gears in manual boxes.)

[Fatgadget]

Back in the dim and distant past I once had a rally Escort equiped with a Quaife range doubler gearbox giving you 8 forward  and 2 reverse ratios!

[Hati]

Back in the dim and distant past I once had a rally Escort equiped with a Quaife range doubler gearbox giving you 8 forward  and 2 reverse ratios!

 

But that probably was a two stick solution? You had a 4 speed H-pattern and another stick where you choose hi and low range. (What an equipment war it would be if some shifter manufacturer would lobby such car in iRacing.)

[404KF2]

I drove a Unimog once with crawler gears and an 8 speed - so effectively a 16 speed.  It also had super-crawler gears....IIRC

[just me again]

But the 8 gears must either have been 2x4 like from 1 to 4 and then again from 1 to 4. Or maybe 1 low then 1 high then 2 low continuing to 4 high?

I dn't think it have been 8 gears in the same box!!!

[7MGTEsup]

My dad had an Isuzu Trooper when I was growing up which had a 5 speed manual transmission with hi low range so effectively 10 gears.

[kikiturbo2]

I'm thinking of buying a new gear shifter for sim racing and the cheap one that I'm thinking has a seven speed plate (+reverse). That got me thinking, if I buy a shifter with six speed pattern how many cars there are to be simulated that the shifter can't handle? I know that there are automatic and semiautomatic gear boxes that have more than six gears but has there ever been a manual gearbox? Six speeds you see every once in a while, I've even owned one, but what's most in cars. (And I'm limiting this to cars, trucks and tractors have more more gears in manual boxes.)

 

991 generation porsche 911 is seven speed manual...as is the Corvette...

[Hati]

991 generation porsche 911 is seven speed manual...as is the Corvette...

 

And both of them are in Assetto Corsa and Project Cars 2. Can't say for now if either have a seven speed manual version available but those are probably only "main stream" cars available? But what about exotic small production super/hyper cars, are there any crazy gear boxes?

[NotAPineapple]

In gearboxes with >6 gears, the top 1-2 gears are sized to minimise fuel consumption so you will never use them on a track. Top speed is reached in the second or third last gear.

[Bob Riebe]

I believe Richmond Gear makes a true six speed, are there any without over-drive that have more?

[Fatgadget]

But that probably was a two stick solution? You had a 4 speed H-pattern and another stick where you choose hi and low range. (What an equipment war it would be if some shifter manufacturer would lobby such car in iRacing.)

  Only one stick that you twisted. to engage the underdrive as it was known. Worked much the same way as an overdrive but in all gears..Serious bragging rights at the pub/motorclub car park I tell you!

Edited by Fatgadget, 22 March 2019 - 21:53.

[Fatgadget]

If I remember correctly the Escort RS Cosworth WRC had a 7 speeder and top gear was 1-1. Drivers didn't think much of the extra ratios apparently,

[Hati]

If I remember correctly the Escort RS Cosworth WRC had a 7 speeder and top gear was 1-1. Drivers didn't think much of the extra ratios apparently,

 

You seem to remember half correct.

http://tech-racingca...k-v-rs-cosworth

If I read that right seven speed box has overdrives. I guess that you remembering 1:1 incorrectly may be due to total ratio being so short that drivers needed all seven gears.

[Lee Nicolle]

No end of commercials with lots of gears. 24 speeds are common. I grew up around 5 speed with either joey boxes or two speed diffs. 

Though with 5 speed 3 speed generally only used underdrive 123 in very slow travel. Highway with 23 ton all up was direct 5 speed and over drive in top or on hills back to low third.

Two speed diffs you still hear the graunch as they select overdrive.

Autos are common with 8 speeds though manuals are generally 6 speed and the top 2 are overdrives

And that even on small engines and all for economy.

[nmansellfan]

The '83 Brabham-BMW (BT52?) F1 car had a 7-speed manual box, for qualifying.  I think they only used a 5-speeder in race conditions.

[mariner]

Kriedler 50cc two stroke bikes in the early 60's had a 4 speed and three sped box to give 12 speeds.

 

With only a few bhp and  minimal two stroke torque span it needed al 12 to climb up those TT course hills. 

 

I hope it had only one clutch as every racing two stroke rider used to ride with two fingers over the clutch lever ready for engine  seizure

[Ristin]

So if we are talking about bikes although the opening post ruled them out, the 1967 50 cc Suzuki twin RK67 deserves a honourable mention: 14 gears, all of them crammed into a proper gearbox as we know it. No fancy "underdrives" or anything.
The stillborn 50 cc triple had even 16 gears.

[gruntguru]

As a supplementary question, I wonder what is the highest number of gears ever offered with a single "H" pattern shifter?

 

There are many examples with 6 speeds and that is easy enough to implement and operate having only 3 planes and spring biasing towards the middle plane. As soon as you add a 4th plane things get tricky for the driver to "feel" which gear is being selected.

[Kelpiecross]

  A wise old truck mechanic once told me that the only "proper" truck gearbox was the "two-layshaft" type.  It had never occurred to me but two layshafts  would give you twice as many gears.   Apparently he regarded  auxiliary  boxes etc. to give extra gears as "improper".   His ideal gearbox was the Fuller Roadranger.   Presumably a car or motorbike gearbox could be "two-layshaft".          

[kikiturbo2]

As a supplementary question, I wonder what is the highest number of gears ever offered with a single "H" pattern shifter?

 

There are many examples with 6 speeds and that is easy enough to implement and operate having only 3 planes and spring biasing towards the middle plane. As soon as you add a 4th plane things get tricky for the driver to "feel" which gear is being selected.

 

porsche has 7 on a "extended" H pattern with 5 planes actually, as it has reverse on the left and up and 7th on right and up..... it has a neat mechanical lockout so that you cant get into 7th from 4th and vice versa.. So in theory it could have 9 gears..

[404KF2]

But the 8 gears must either have been 2x4 like from 1 to 4 and then again from 1 to 4. Or maybe 1 low then 1 high then 2 low continuing to 4 high?

I dn't think it have been 8 gears in the same box!!!

 

Well, it had a double H shift pattern with a dedicated slot for each of the 8 forward gears.  So if that involved automatic range changes, I'd be shocked particularly because there was a separate lever for high/low/super crawler.

 

Here's me during the drive...

 

[404KF2]

Even in normal (road) gear - this Unimog was maxxed out at 90 km/h so it had the slow axle ratios - I started from rest (vehicle unladen) in third gear and no clutch slip was needed to get it going.  This one didn't have a torque converter, which some of the other Unimog manuals do.

[Lee Nicolle]

I believe Richmond Gear makes a true six speed, are there any without over-drive that have more?

Richmond is an overdrive sixth.  Though can have 4th as an over drive as well as sixth.

TKO has 2 overdrives. As do most 6 speeds on road cars

[Fatgadget]

In gearboxes with >6 gears, the top 1-2 gears are sized to minimise fuel consumption so you will never use them on a track. Top speed is reached in the second or third last gear.

The original Porsche 911 turbo only has 4 gears !

[Fatgadget]

Kriedler 50cc two stroke bikes in the early 60's had a 4 speed and three sped box to give 12 speeds.

 

With only a few bhp and  minimal two stroke torque span it needed al 12 to climb up those TT course hills. 

 

I hope it had only one clutch as every racing two stroke rider used to ride with two fingers over the clutch lever ready for engine  seizure

Why 2 separate boxes? Didn't that add weight?

[Bob Riebe]

Richmond is an overdrive sixth.  Though can have 4th as an over drive as well as sixth.

TKO has 2 overdrives. As do most 6 speeds on road cars

You are correct, my error.

[Hati]

I probably never use seventh gear but I've now ordered shifter with seven speeds.

[gruntguru]

Showoff!

[Lee Nicolle]

Talking too a bloke Sunday who said you only need 3 gears, any more is a waste of money. This in an old Holden which are very tractable and practical and that is really all you do need. He thinks disc brakes are a fad as well!  And again for the car they work as well than the factory discs for a car that is driven at 70mph on the open road. In fact for a couple of brisk stops are probably better.

And look at Drag racers,, remove a 4 or 5 speed auto and replace it with a Powerglide with TWO gears. Personally I think they are nuts!

[Greg Locock]

When i worked for an interesting car company back in the late 70s they had a prototype with a big engine and a single speed gearbox. Instead of a clutch they had a torque converter that was slightly tuned to give the correct sort of power delivery. It was never fired up that I knew of, just another failed experiment.

[NotAPineapple]

Talking too a bloke Sunday who said you only need 3 gears, any more is a waste of money. This in an old Holden which are very tractable and practical and that is really all you do need. He thinks disc brakes are a fad as well! And again for the car they work as well than the factory discs for a car that is driven at 70mph on the open road. In fact for a couple of brisk stops are probably better.
And look at Drag racers,, remove a 4 or 5 speed auto and replace it with a Powerglide with TWO gears. Personally I think they are nuts!

If you don't care about engine durability, fuel consumption, engine noise or straightline performance then I suppose >3 gears is a waste of money.

[gruntguru]

When i worked for an interesting car company back in the late 70s they had a prototype with a big engine and a single speed gearbox. Instead of a clutch they had a torque converter that was slightly tuned to give the correct sort of power delivery. It was never fired up that I knew of, just another failed experiment.

 

Koenigsegg have something along those lines - plus some electric power to help at low speeds. In production too.

 

https://www.koenigsegg.com/car/regera/

[Greg Locock]

The idea was to build a really cheap third world car. This one was built months before the first oil embargo, which clobbered many projects, and completely changed the direction of the whole department's emphasis. For the next 10 years they mostly worked on fuel economy.

[kikiturbo2]

Peugeot had a rally car, the 307 WRC, that had only 4 forward gears.. and that was allready in the time of paddle shifters.. Did it for weight and friction reasons. Drivers hated it of course..

[gruntguru]

No doubt 4 gears was sufficient since the intake restrictor rule appeared. That rule results in engines with a "constant power" characteristic.