64 replies to this topic

[FirstnameLastname]

Can’t believe it’s already 10years since Button won the world championship with Brawn. But it is indeed that long ago...

What’s the chances of such a thing happening again? Or was it a perfect one-off fairytale story? The stars aligned correctly and made a fantastic story. From closing the doors to winning the first race in a matter of weeks.

I guess if Mercedes backed out at some point, then ‘Toto F1’ could triumph?

[Christbiscuit]

Sadly, no. I think the cars have become ridiculously complex, both aerodynamically and mechanically, in the intervening years which means it takes years to make big changes. Look at the struggles of McLaren, for example. They are talking about years to turn things around.

[crooky369]

I think it could.. it was utterly ridiculous in 2009 that Brawn did it and I don’t think the sport is all that different other than the new PUs.

And well after Leicester City won the Premier League I’d say almost anything is possible in sport!

[thegforcemaybewithyou]

2021 with new rules might be a good chance for a champion that isn't driving a Mercedes, Ferrari or Red Bull.

[LucaP]

Remember Brawn had to beat cantacreous Red Bull, tightfisted McLaren, ravenous Ferrari and pan-assed Toyota on their way to glorified historied avenue of trophy.

[Hati]

Yes/no.

[f1paul]

Yes. Its just a matter of win.

 

It could be next year, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, 50 years or 100 years. But it will happen at some point. 

[PayasYouRace]

Can’t believe it’s already 10years since Button won the world championship with Brawn. But it is indeed that long ago...

What’s the chances of such a thing happening again? Or was it a perfect one-off fairytale story? The stars aligned correctly and made a fantastic story. From closing the doors to winning the first race in a matter of weeks.

I guess if Mercedes backed out at some point, then ‘Toto F1’ could triumph?

 

I'd say it was a once in a lifetime situation, as much down to circumstances than anything else.

 

-A major change in regulations.

-The two title contenders from the previous year opting for an optional new drivetrain technology (KERS).

-BMW Sauber dropping the ball spectacularly despite focussing on 2009 quite early in 2008.

-The double-deck diffuser (though remember that they weren't the only team using it).

-Toyota unable to make the most of their resources.

-Red Bull a little slow to learn how to win.

-The change to Mercedes engines which should not be underestimated in a year when the entire field was covered by a second at time. Small differences mattered.

 

I remember in the lead up to the season I expected Brawn to be around 4th in the championship. Perhaps without all those things above that's probably where they would have ended up.

 

I'm glad it did happen though. It was amazing to watch and it set the stage for much of F1 since then. It gave Jenson Button the chance to show that he was a championship calibre driver, and set him up for what I consider the best years of his career, as teammate to Lewis Hamilton at McLaren. It also set the stage for Michael Schumacher to make his comeback as Mercedes bought out the team.

 

Could it happen again? You'd need a similar set of circumstances. I think the key ones being the impact of both the major regulation changes and the fact that KERS was optional, which basically held back Ferrari and McLaren. That sort of perfect storm doesn't come along very often, and you can't really say that changes to F1 will make it impossible because it wasn't something that happened before either. I suppose Wolf was the closest. They had a very competitive 1977 after effectively taking over from the original Williams team.

[Alfisti]

10 years since I choked on damn near $1m.

See, I'd been watching f1 markets for years, waiting for the right opportunity. Its heavily car reliant so knew that one day, one would slip past the bookies.

After the first day brawn hit the test tracks they were 85:1. I hit the sites and figured $2000 on 5 web agencies all at once so none are the wiser. We both work, had no kids, small mortgage so had the coin handy.

Second day and after 5 laps they are just belting everyone, 2 seco ds a lap faster, annihilating the competition. Posted rates are 80:1.

I never raise it with the mrs, i choke, let it slide and before long it's over.

Still rue it to this day.

Edited by Alfisti, 06 April 2019 - 01:44.

[messy]

I think if you'd asked this question in late 2008 everyone would have said it was completely impossible.

Yeah, it could happen again. It was a once in a generation thing, but sometimes in sport something totally bizarre happens, like Leicester City winning the premier league. Change of regulations was the big, big contributing factor in 2009. It genuinely tore up the form book. Similar in 2021 and who knows. All I'd say about 2009 was that you had two manufacturer teams in Toyota and Honda (possibly also BMW) who were pouring similar resources to the top teams into everything for very little reward and that certainly contributed too. Not sure that's the case at the moment.

[Fatgadget]

Not a snowballs  chance in hell. The days of shoehorning an engine/drivetrain into a chassis not designed in unison  from the ground up   looong gone.

[PlayboyRacer]

Right set of circumstances/events at the right time (perfect storm) and I have learnt that nothing is impossible.

[Gary Davies]

Remember Brawn had to beat cantacreous Red Bull, tightfisted McLaren, ravenous Ferrari and pan-assed Toyota on their way to glorified historied avenue of trophy.

"Tightfisted McLaren"... in the interest of historical accuracy it should be pointed out that McLaren, specifically, Martin Whitmarsh, that in their position as Mercedes' official partner gave their sanction to Brawn having access to the Mercedes engine.

[Nonesuch]

Unlikely, the FIA is a much smoother operation than under the terrible leadership of Mosley.

 

A repeat of the double diffuser debacle doesn't seem to be on the cards. When Ferrari and McLaren got up to speed with that, they quickly re-established themselves; both their lead-drivers winning in the latter half of the season (from Hungary onwards) and scoring more points than Button and Vettel.

 

[FirstnameLastname]

10 years since I choked on damn near $1m.

See, I'd been watching f1 markets for years, waiting for the right opportunity. Its heavily car reliant so knew that one day, one would slip past the bookies.

After the first day brawn hit the test tracks they were 85:1. I hit the sites and figured $2000 on 5 web agencies all at once so none are the wiser. We both work, had no kids, small mortgage so had the coin handy.

Second day and after 5 laps they are just belting everyone, 2 seco ds a lap faster, annihilating the competition. Posted rates are 80:1.

I never raise it with the mrs, i choke, let it slide and before long it's over.

Still rue it to this day.

Similar situ. I realised Brawn were onto something decent, and was telling anyone who’d listen to stick a wee bet on. I’ve never been a betting man myself, so didn’t bother taking my own advice. Rue it to this day as I could have had a healthy sum that year.

[e34]

Not to take away anything from Brawn (he did put his wallet were his mouth was, after all), but Brawn championship was down to an illegal device (a slot not a hole? c'mon!) and to a power struggle that lead Ecclestone to show Ferrari (and McLaren, to a lesser extent) that F1 was his cat, and he skinned it as he wanted. Additionally, Ecclestone used it to cheat the likes of HRT, Caterham and the other one into believing that a new, cheaper and level F1 was forthcoming, as he needed more cars to fill the grid. 

 

I find it amusing that any F1 fan believes that it was a bona fide sporting feat. In any case, I am glad that Button got his championship (although I do feel for Barrichello), and I am also glad that Brawn got his finances solved. 

[Gary Davies]

"...an illegal device..."

Like your post overall, but I think it might be possible that the quoted bit is debatable.

[PayasYouRace]

Not to take away anything from Brawn (he did put his wallet were his mouth was, after all), but Brawn championship was down to an illegal device (a slot not a hole? c'mon!) and to a power struggle that lead Ecclestone to show Ferrari (and McLaren, to a lesser extent) that F1 was his cat, and he skinned it as he wanted. Additionally, Ecclestone used it to cheat the likes of HRT, Caterham and the other one into believing that a new, cheaper and level F1 was forthcoming, as he needed more cars to fill the grid. 

 

I find it amusing that any F1 fan believes that it was a bona fide sporting feat. In any case, I am glad that Button got his championship (although I do feel for Barrichello), and I am also glad that Brawn got his finances solved. 

 

The "slot, not a hole" debacle was an issue related to some team's floors, including Red Bull, in later seasons.

 

The double-deck diffuser was not illegal. It was in one of those regulation loopholes that many teams over the years have used. It was not the sole reason for their success either. Toyota and Williams had it from the beginning of the season too, and many went on to adapt their cars for it.

[absinthedude]

Highly unlikely....but.....if a team like Mercedes or Red Bull suddenly pulled out and was quickly rescued by a management or similar buyout....then it's just possible. That's what allowed Brawn to succeed....Ross and co bought the Honda team after Honda pulled out and were able to make the Mercedes engine (then as now the class of the field) work in the Honda car....renamed it Brawn and away they went. The difference was that Honda hadn't been all that competitive in 2008, hence pulling out. 

 

I really don't see it happening again even in 2021 but if the stars align , all the gods are willing and Jeremy Corbyn says so....then it could happen again. 

[thegamer23]

Nah, no more Ross Brawns around

[NoForumForOldPole]

It can happen, given right circumstances - see Leicester City

[TomNokoe]

Will we see a new team rise through the ranks in their first season? Sure.

Will we see a nearly dead team rise from the ashes? Sure.

Will the might of the previous year's championship contenders drop the ball so heavily to allow a backmarker to dominate? Hell no.

[sopa]

Wolff GP after the pullout of Mercedes - though continuing as an engine supplier - is your best hope.

[e34]

The "slot, not a hole" debacle was an issue related to some team's floors, including Red Bull, in later seasons.

 

The double-deck diffuser was not illegal. It was in one of those regulation loopholes that many teams over the years have used. It was not the sole reason for their success either. Toyota and Williams had it from the beginning of the season too, and many went on to adapt their cars for it.

 

If I remember properly, the double diffuser worked by having an opening in the floor of the car, where you were supposed not to have any. In fact, at the beginning, the contoversy was based on whether or not you could see the ground from above the floor, or something to that effect. There was an old gentlement agreement among the teams not to have the floor pierced, and, again, if I remember properly, it was SuperAguri the one that used a "slot" to enhance the effect of the double diffuser for the first time, and when they were merged with Honda and Honda engineers told them that it was illegal, they showed them that it met the requirement of the ground not being visible from above. 

 

Brawn then warned the teams that there was a loophole, the teams couldn't care less and then, when they saw the effect of the "opening" and the double diffuser, they protested the hole in the floor, and were told that it was not a hole, but a slot, by the technical director at the first race. 

 

At least, that is how I recall it, although I may be mixing things. 

 

In any case, 2009 rules were intended to reduce the effect of the diffuser, as it created a wake that made overtaking difficult, and, if my recalls are not wrong, the loophole was not found in the amendments to 2009, but in the way the rules prohibited the holes, which was not a straight ban, but the "ground must be visible rule", to allow an operating opening in the floor for the starter or some other device. In any case, it was agreed by the teams that the floor should not have holes, and it was clear that Brawn floor had a hole for aerodynamic purposes. 

 

As I said, I am more than happy that Brawn got away with murder, but, as I see it, it was basically down to the power struggle between Ecclestone and the historical teams.

 

And it opened the door to the loopholerism, which may be good to stir the pot at internet forums, but is a silly and non-operative way to regulate an activity. It just fosters a pursuit of absurdity, as opposed to ingenuity, when construing rules. It is a reward for not wanting to abide by the rules within the realm of logic and good faith, and, even worse, a device in the hands of the regulator to act in despotic randomness, looking only for its own benefit. 

 

Although, if you are right, I may be mixing some particulars of Brawn's and RBR controversies. 

[RedRabbit]

I lurk, much, much more than comment, but I feel that over the years, a lot of folk have forgotten that the BGP001 was actually a full factory Honda chassis that was about 18 months in development, with Ross Brawn even admitting at the time that it may have been the most expensive car ever made for F1 (back then). I remember him saying that in winter testing, they were so much faster because in a hypothetical situation, all the other teams were in Stage 1 of the car development, while they were already at Stage 3.

 

Then, as already mentioned by others, an ideal set of circumstances opened the door nice and wide - optional use of KERS hampering teams that used it; much easier to fit a different engine; an inexperienced and crash happy Vettel in a Red Bull that still played strictly by the rules as main rivals, instead of Ferrari and McLaren.

 

The closest we might get to another Brawn GP type story is Renault opening the purse strings for another 18 months, but pulling out, selling the team to Ricciardo, who uses his connections ar Red Bull to secure a now superior Honda unit and become the first Driver/Owner to win anything since ... Bruce McLaren?

[Clatter]

It will be something that is very unlikely to happen again, but not impossible. You have to remember that the team didn't actually have to design the car. That work was all done by Honda. The hardest part of the jigsaw was the engine change, and with regulations that control much of the design of the engine I don't think it's as hard as it might once of been (not saying its easy though).
The more likely scenario is the takeover of a team where the incoming owners luck into a great design, but its just such a rare event that we are unlikely to see it happen again

[FirstnameLastname]

Absolutely, there’s an ‘alternative history’ kicking around the web somewhere as well, where Honda continue but using their own engine + turning up at the first lot of testing, the other teams have more time to react to the double diffuser and copy it quicker. Plus the Honda engine was not as powerful as the Merc that Brawn swapped it for so that also gave a boost.

Obviously Honda designed/built the car and then loaded the Brawn bank account with enough cash to see out 2009 to avoid the redundancy payments which would have cost a fortune.

It still would have been a great story to see Honda BAR winning the championship in their own right. I don’t see a time that Honda goes full-works in that manner again.

[RECKLESS]

Inevitably, yes.

[krapmeister]

10 years since I choked on damn near $1m.

See, I'd been watching f1 markets for years, waiting for the right opportunity. Its heavily car reliant so knew that one day, one would slip past the bookies.

After the first day brawn hit the test tracks they were 85:1. I hit the sites and figured $2000 on 5 web agencies all at once so none are the wiser. We both work, had no kids, small mortgage so had the coin handy.

Second day and after 5 laps they are just belting everyone, 2 seco ds a lap faster, annihilating the competition. Posted rates are 80:1.

I never raise it with the mrs, i choke, let it slide and before long it's over.

Still rue it to this day.

 

You do know though, that had you placed that bet that Brawn wouldn't have won right?

 

At least that's what i tell myself when I miss out on something like that - Murphy's Law and all that.

 

I had a mate who was a part-owner of 'Prince of Penzance' who was in the Melbourne Cup a few years ago - I00:1 shot. I walked into the TAB intending to put $100 on it to win - hey it's not everyday you have a friend who has a horse in the Melbourne Cup right? - chickened out and only put $10 each way on it. Damn horse went and won.

 

But anyway - if I did put $100 on it, it probably would've broken a leg or something... 

Edited by krapmeister, 06 April 2019 - 10:44.

[krapmeister]

...The closest we might get to another Brawn GP type story is Renault opening the purse strings for another 18 months, but pulling out, selling the team to Ricciardo, who uses his connections ar Red Bull to secure a now superior Honda unit and become the first Driver/Owner to win anything since ... Bruce McLaren?

 

Geezus I love how you think! Please make it come true    

Edited by krapmeister, 06 April 2019 - 10:48.

[DS27]

10 years since I choked on damn near $1m.

See, I'd been watching f1 markets for years, waiting for the right opportunity. Its heavily car reliant so knew that one day, one would slip past the bookies.

After the first day brawn hit the test tracks they were 85:1. I hit the sites and figured $2000 on 5 web agencies all at once so none are the wiser. We both work, had no kids, small mortgage so had the coin handy.

Second day and after 5 laps they are just belting everyone, 2 seco ds a lap faster, annihilating the competition. Posted rates are 80:1.

I never raise it with the mrs, i choke, let it slide and before long it's over.

Still rue it to this day.

 

 

Don't beat yourself up over it. 

 

You wouldn't have got to spend the money anyway, as no doubt your heart would have finally given out towards the end of the year, probably around the Japan round.  

[maximilian]

Renault could decide to pull out, and a similar scenario might occur where the otherwise-not-WDC-material Nico Hulkenberg ends up lucking into a championship just like Jenson Button did 

[P123]

A team stopping development and pouring all their resources into the following season, exploiting a loophole in the regs. to give themselves an advantage, whilst other big hitters stumble? Sure, always a chance of that, but it will always be a slim chance.

[sopa]

I think you can look, how low down the field the new WDC/WCC winner had been the previous year. 

 

Even though regulation changes can mix up the field more, you usually don't get a new champion from way down the field. They had been at least reasonably competitive beforehand. For example - Mercedes was 2nd in 2013 (3 wins), Renault was 3rd in 2004 (0 wins), McLaren was 4th in 1997 (3 wins), Benetton was 3rd in 1993 (1 win). All went on to win the championship next year.

 

So Brawn GP is a unique example not just for the last 10 years, but for way much longer. Apart from 2009, to find that many changes in pecking order from one season to another, you have to go back to early 80's/late 70's, when F1 was much different anyway, and development freedom/potential was something different too.

 

The anomaly of 2009 was also made possible, because we had a lot of very well-funded teams (6 works teams + Red Bull), so anyone could surprise among them. We also had engine freeze, so no manufacturer could dominate on that front. Unlikely we are getting these conditions again anywhere near the future. Better look to Formula E to get such shifts on that front, where we have lots of manufacturers and relative closeness of the field.

Edited by sopa, 06 April 2019 - 12:46.

[Alfisti]

Similar situ. I realised Brawn were onto something decent, and was telling anyone who’d listen to stick a wee bet on. I’ve never been a betting man myself, so didn’t bother taking my own advice. Rue it to this day as I could have had a healthy sum that year.

That's the difference. I am a betting man and I was waiting for it, but choked. Soft.

[sopa]

That's the difference. I am a betting man and I was waiting for it, but choked. Soft.

 

In F1 that's literally once in a lifetime opportunity considering, how rarely it happens. Tough luck. 

 

Maybe better luck in other sports, where surprises are more common?

[Henri Greuter]

A team stopping development and pouring all their resources into the following season, exploiting a loophole in the regs. to give themselves an advantage, whilst other big hitters stumble? Sure, always a chance of that, but it will always be a slim chance.

 

Something like it or at least close to it did happen. And we still see the effects of that today....

 

I mean of course Mercedes prepping themselves for the new 2014 engine rules and not caring too much about 2012 and 2013 anymore ......

[Victor]

Yes, it may happen again, as long as FIA allows a team to run an illegal car, as they did with Brawn 10 years ago. 

[BRG]

Not a snowballs  chance in hell. The days of shoehorning an engine/drivetrain into a chassis not designed in unison  from the ground up   looong gone.

That's what people said in 2009.

[Peter Perfect]

10 years since I choked on damn near $1m.

See, I'd been watching f1 markets for years, waiting for the right opportunity. Its heavily car reliant so knew that one day, one would slip past the bookies.

After the first day brawn hit the test tracks they were 85:1. I hit the sites and figured $2000 on 5 web agencies all at once so none are the wiser. We both work, had no kids, small mortgage so had the coin handy.

Second day and after 5 laps they are just belting everyone, 2 seco ds a lap faster, annihilating the competition. Posted rates are 80:1.

I never raise it with the mrs, i choke, let it slide and before long it's over.

Still rue it to this day.

By the time I placed my bet they were 17-1, but it still paid the deposit on my first house 🙂

[danmills]

10 years since I choked on damn near $1m.

See, I'd been watching f1 markets for years, waiting for the right opportunity. Its heavily car reliant so knew that one day, one would slip past the bookies.

After the first day brawn hit the test tracks they were 85:1. I hit the sites and figured $2000 on 5 web agencies all at once so none are the wiser. We both work, had no kids, small mortgage so had the coin handy.

Second day and after 5 laps they are just belting everyone, 2 seco ds a lap faster, annihilating the competition. Posted rates are 80:1.

I never raise it with the mrs, i choke, let it slide and before long it's over.

Still rue it to this day.

Similar to me. Though it was still day 1 of testing, Brawn were 1000-1 and I was about to head to the bookies and put a students 100 quid down.

Never made a bet in my life and as I was about to leave got a snotty look and downtalk by my 20 year old gf. I never put it down.

Amusingly I also had Leicester down a few years ago made the November of that season for what I thought was a quid turned out to be 10p. I didn't noticed until a year later lol.

[Dan333SP]

Yes, it may happen again, as long as FIA allows a team to run an illegal car, as they did with Brawn 10 years ago.

Someone is still bitter...

[noikeee]

Trick question, because what would we consider Brawn "happening again"?

 

To people with a passing interest in the sport, when they saw that almost-unsponsored white car under the "Brawn" name competing and winning in 2009, and the fuss about a "new team" winning it at the first attempt, they probably imagined a bunch of lads that had just arrived into F1, set up their own factory and built a new car out of nowhere and won all the races. I think everyone reading this forum understands this wasn't what happened, it was the continuation of the Honda team, but anyway, if we posed the question that way. Can a completely new team arrive into F1 and win immediately again? No ****ing way, but we know that this wasn't what happened with Brawn anyway, so this is not the question we're asking.

 

So if we move the question to something that incorporates what actually happened - Can a team change names and ownership over winter and win immediately again? Well, I don't see why not? It's hardly the ideal set of circumstances because that almost implies some level of turnmoil and besides, teams that are doing well usually don't get sold. But theoretically it's really not that far-fetched Mercedes could decide they've had enough of bankrolling F1, it's sold to some crazy billionaire similar to Mateschitz, the team had meanwhile already designed a killer for the next season, it comes out on track and wins it. In fact this has happened already prior to Brawn to some extent, see the Wolf story in 1977, based on the remains of the Williams team the previous year, won a few GPs although not the World Championship. There's really nothing all that remarkable about a change of ownership or team name that would impede success of a continued operation. Force India was renamed Racing Point, it's a "new team" with a new entry yet more or less remains at the same level. If it happens with a top team, it should win. Nothing fancy and pretty logical.

 

But now of course, that would be missing the point of what made Brawn story special. It wasn't just the change of ownership. It was that it went over the winter from an big, rich manufacturer operation that was nevertheless unsuccessful, to a skint privateer that barely managed to enter the GP and hacked an engine into it, and yet was super dominant and won the championship. That was indeed a fairytale story from a point of view. However that also would be missing the point that none of this would be possible without a very logical, very non-fairytale reason for it - that crazy amounts of money were poured into the development of this car, and that there was a massive regulations change coinciding with all this. So we could ask, Can a rich but unsuccessful team lose most of their funding over winter, and barely manage to make the grid, yet still win immediately the title, with a car that was developed whilst there was still huge funding in a regulations change year, again?

 

.... and there's really no reason whatsoever why it can't happen, yet it seems extremely unlikely, but that's really only because we're asking a question about a ridiculously specific scenario, isn't it? It's a bit like asking, uh, Can a 21 year old Monegasque driver lead his 2nd race for Ferrari and lose the race only due to mechanical problems, again? Bit of a stupid question to ask? I mean there's no real reason why it can't happen, but it's ridiculously unlikely to happen because we're pinning down such a specific scenario.

[eibyyz]

It'll be either Merc or Ferrari until F1 implodes.  The open question is when that will be...

[Radion]

I was wondering the other day. Was the DD the idea of Ross or was Honda the one that used this loophole?

[Muppetmad]

I was wondering the other day. Was the DD the idea of Ross or was Honda the one that used this loophole?

I believe Honda was originally given the idea by Super Aguri(!) after the latter's collapse in 2008 - but I'm happy to be corrected.

[Frood]

I believe Honda was originally given the idea by Super Aguri(!) after the latter's collapse in 2008 - but I'm happy to be corrected.

That’s what I always understood the origin to be. Will Buxton agrees: https://twitter.com/...969374955855872

I prefer to think what happened in a parallel universe where Honda hadn’t pulled out. Super Aguri never goes under, engineers stay with the team and the concept never appears at Honda and Toyota. SA09 appears at Melbourne as the car to beat. Sato and Davidson dominate the championship.

It doesn’t mention anywhere that any of the engineers ended up at Williams, though. Did they get the idea through Toyota or did they come up with the idea independently of the ex-Aguri engineers?

Edited by Frood, 07 April 2019 - 09:18.

[Anderis]

Damn, 2009 was my favourite F1 season ever. I wish F1 is as exciting for me nowadays as it was back then. I would even wake up at 4 a.m. to watch a FPS.

 

Could a repeat happen? It depends what you consider to be a "repeat" and how much time you give it. If F1 is still around hundreds of years in the future, the chances of it happening will be increasing each year. There are dozens of possible scenarios that could be compared to Brawn.
a) a team that was near the back of the grid suddenly fights for championships
b) a team that was near the back of the grid is meant to collapse but gets rescued last minute and proceeds to utterly dominate the first half of the season due to a controversial technical solution
Of course a) is more probable than b) because b) includes more prerequisites. But is a) close enough to be considered a "repeat"? If yes, then I think it's going to happen at some point.

[pRy]

I never raise it with the mrs, i choke, let it slide and before long it's over.

Still rue it to this day.

 

Great story. I suspect we'd have all done the same thing. I think back then there was some doubt about the testing performance being real or if it was a ploy to get sponsors. Perhaps I've imagined that. But even in Australia I'm not sure anyone really expected what actually happened. 

[Fatgadget]

Great story. I suspect we'd have all done the same thing. I think back then there was some doubt about the testing performance being real or if it was a ploy to get sponsors. Perhaps I've imagined that. But even in Australia I'm not sure anyone really expected what actually happened. 

Indeed.More so after the epic dog fight between McLaren and Ferrari. That was nuts!