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The E-ternal City | Formula E in Rome - Round 7


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Poll: What are you looking forward to most in Rome? (24 member(s) have cast votes)

What are you looking forward to most in Rome?

  1. 7th different winner in 7 races (6 votes [25.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  2. The start of the European leg of the season (3 votes [12.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

  3. The real championship contenders starting to emerge (3 votes [12.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

  4. Seeing Gen2 getting some air at the top of the hill into T9 (5 votes [20.83%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.83%

  5. An underdog victory (2 votes [8.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

  6. Alex Lynn fighting off his roman ghosts (1 votes [4.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.17%

  7. Some good old Formula E action (4 votes [16.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.67%

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#301 Ben1445

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 19:30

Evans passes Lotterer from the stands

 


 

Was this your seat? 



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#302 thegamer23

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 20:09

Around there, not exactly in that seat but saw the overtake. Great fun.  :clap:

 

Next stop, Paris, in two weeks time! 

 

 

The shortest, tighest Formula E track in calendar! 
It's going to be wild, that's for sure! 

 

formula-e-paris-eprix-layout-2016-paris-


Edited by thegamer23, 14 April 2019 - 20:09.


#303 BRG

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 20:41

Some parts of this circuit are actually adequate.  If only we could get some psychiatric help for FE to get them over their obsession with stupid chicances and the mandatory hairpin too tight to be any use as an overtaking place, but excellent as a venue for crashes. If there really are queues of cities eager to host races, as Agag claims, surely they can find some with roads wide enough to allow proper racing?   Even with the Attack feature, it was virtually impossible to pass anyone in Rome.



#304 Peat

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 20:44

Good race I thought. Bon!



#305 RSRally

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 21:16

Where there are obstacles in the way such as buildings not much can be done unless the track can be re-routed completely, but sometimes there is really no excuse.

A good example would be the chicane at the obelisk in Rome.. completely unnecessary. Also, where the pile up was that right hand corner did not need to be that tight.

I don't think FEs problems with red flags this year are due to substandard driving.. just a combination of the cars being slightly bigger and circuits not being wide enough.

The changes they did make in Rome make me hopeful they are at least thinking about this, but they need to go further.

#306 Ben1445

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 21:29

Some parts of this circuit are actually adequate. If only we could get some psychiatric help for FE to get them over their obsession with stupid chicances and the mandatory hairpin too tight to be any use as an overtaking place, but excellent as a venue for crashes. If there really are queues of cities eager to host races, as Agag claims, surely they can find some with roads wide enough to allow proper racing? Even with the Attack feature, it was virtually impossible to pass anyone in Rome.


What did you make of the Evans/Lotterer battle and the first proper Jaguar win in ages?

#307 Ben1445

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 21:37

I am hoping they’re taking a ‘suck it and see’ approach with circuits and the Gen2 car. Maybe they thought it not really worth the risk of re-applying for permission and/or investing cash into whole sale circuit layout changes until they know how the new car performs on existing ones. They’ll surely be looking at the cause of these red flags and, if it is the circuits as we suspect it is, will then make changes accordingly.

The only confusing counter to that hope is re-signing Paris for three more years before Gen2 has even raced there. Unless they have a plan in place to move or expand the circuit that we don’t know about yet...

#308 RacingGreen

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 23:35

I just did this for the Formula One procession in China so.....

 

Best driver: Mitch Evans
Worst driver: Lopez - not exactly sure if he had a problem but he seemed to have a couple of moments all by himself and then of course made a complete idiot of himself.
Best team: I was tempted to say Audi, but Jag won of course and they handled the tricky last lap well so I will have to give it to them
Worst team: Venturi ? Does Suzie need some help from her husband her as he seems to know how to get a racing team to work.
Best overtake: Mitch Evans on Andre Lotterer was the most decisive, and anyone on Lotterer is always a big moment so I'll stick with that. 
Best moment: Jag's first win is good enough.
DRS + tyres  Attack Mode etc.: I'm really liking this attack mode and these gen 2 cars. I thought attack mode was a silly gimmick but no it actually generates tactical racing. The activation zone was in a good spot too however I'm a big fan of the circuit.

The race in a sentence: 7th winner in 7 races and and not a dud race yet. Formula E keeps getting better and better.

And the Final Rating: If I was trying to convert a new fan to motor racing this isn't the race I'd show them so it's certainly not a 10 /10 but I'll give it a solid 8 / 10. 


Edited by RacingGreen, 14 April 2019 - 23:48.


#309 thegamer23

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 07:36

GREAT idea RacingGreen, we could make this a recurrent thing!   :up:  :up:

 

My picks

 

Best driver: Mitch Evans
Worst driver: Lopez - This guy is a nutcase. He's fast but he can't finish one race without causing some major dramas
Best team: Jaguar. Lynn also did good in quali, but was penalized. 
Worst team: NIO. They're nowhere to be seen. At least Venturi had pace for a Top 5 finish with, at least, Mortara
Best overtake: Mitch Evans on Andre Lotterer. Brave stuff into the chicane, Lotterer was a gentlemen too. 
Best moment: Gunther's Kansei Dorifto moment
DRS + tyres  Attack Mode etc.: Very good imho. I think Attack Mode was placed well. 

The race in a sentence: Great, after the restart! Overtaking was not easy, but still possible. 

And the Final Rating: 8/10. I loved the long ass battle between Lotterer & Evans. Only one real manouver between them, but wow, it was tense!


Edited by thegamer23, 15 April 2019 - 07:46.


#310 Kev00

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 07:43

This circuit was much better for the fact that attack mode was not in a stupid place where you have to lose 2 seconds to activate it. Drivers we’re activating it at different times and not just all together under SC or FCY. I hope the keep this up for future races. Also I’m so happy to see actual race pace from the HWA.

#311 Ben1445

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 07:54

Count me in. Standard F1 template works but I think we can make it more 'Formula E' with time   ;)

 

Star of the Race: Mitch Evans. Very well judged and a pleasure to watch. 

A day to forget for: Lopez. He needs to cool it, that driving style doesn't seem to work here. 
Best team: Jaguar. It felt like a team effort over the radio with Mitch which was nice to hear. 
Best overtake: Mitch on Lotterer. Hard but fair racing with neither feeling aggrieved. Handled well by race control. 
Best moment: Jaguar's first official win in nearly 30 years. 
Attack Mode etc.: Attack mode was great here. Well placed on track and made the fight for the lead interesting the whole race long. Fanboost again invisible (good!). Energy saving coming into play late in the race added some last minute uncertainty which I liked. 

Circuit layout: Very good for the most part. One of the best on the calendar and high hopes for future work to make it even better if the narrow pinch points can be ironed out. 

 

The race in a sentence: Red flag knocks a mark off, but I love seeing a lead battle like that and it was respectful and fair - best race I saw this weekend as it had me on the edge of my seat for a majority of green flag running. 

And the Final Rating: 9/10


Edited by Ben1445, 15 April 2019 - 07:57.


#312 maximilian

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 11:32

Love the guy, but my worst driver vote goes to JEV this time.  His stupid mistakes keep adding up this season, and this one really baffled in its obviousness, and how easily it could have been prevented.


Edited by maximilian, 15 April 2019 - 11:32.


#313 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 11:38

On that track and place for anyone to get by Lotterer, shows that overtaking isn't THAT bad.

I wonder whether a model could be devised to figure out whether the team with the fastest car actually has the best chance for the championship. The quali disavantage is staggering.
What will make the difference in the end? One fewer DNF when in the points? One time not running out of juice on the last lap?



#314 Sterzo

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 12:03

On that track and place for anyone to get by Lotterer, shows that overtaking isn't THAT bad.
 

But with some thought and commitment applied to the question, the racing would be so much better.



#315 Heyli

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 12:06

And 7 Races, 7 Different Pole Sitters, 7 different race winners, more importantly from 7 different teams.

 

It's just amazing, the unpredictability is just one reason why Formula E is so great. As a motorsport/sports fan, what you want is unpredictability. Why would you want to restrict who is going to win a race to just 3 or 4 teams? 

It somehow seems a bit like a lottery to me. Don´t get me wrong, the racing is perfectly fine.

 

However, it feels like they are somehow artificially making it more exciting, by punishing the leaders too much. I like the field close, as in all teams in a similar performance window, but at the end I also dont think the best guys should be punished when they are performing the best. 



#316 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 12:45

But with some thought and commitment applied to the question, the racing would be so much better.

Oh absolutely. And a series with spec cars and just a short history is a nearly blank sheet I couldn't wait to start drawing on.

The tight and crazy numerous corners on short circuits I think came largely from them purposely designing a needlessly slow car. Isn't that why FIA gave this weird super long term monopoly on all-electric racing, hardly a sign of technological vision?
These cars could be much quicker, to earn electric racing a more mainstream position in racing. 

- Why RWD only?

- Why semi-open wheel?

- Why the same tires as on a road going sports car?

- Why such a strict power limit, give more freedom to use it wisely!

I feel a lot of the bodywork is merely aesthetic. Lose the whole nose and front wings, barely lose pace. We've seen it would rear "wings" as well.
A more aggressive/progressive battery would open up so much for racing. Imagine batteries 2/3 to 4/5 the size and weight...which SWAP. Take a pit stop for a full battery if you want to make it to the finish line. Even two pit stops could be planned. I'd even consider one such battery to have higher power enabled if we must have some gimmick.
Blank sheet aero and drivetrain would allow for a lot of weight-efficient aero upgrades. If might end up quite Group C-like, but it that a bad thing? Slippery (road relevant) AND really high downforce to not look as silly around corners we know and love. 

Imagine a really slippery race car powered by a heavily upgraded FE drivetrain (50% more power on average?) going down the Monza straight and still hit F1-like top speeds. Wouldn't that be a big deal? Imagine it going through Eau Rouge really quickly, faster than LMP1 if I can have my way with it... Spec aero only needs to be designed ONCE to make it quick. We see what Porsche did with their 919 tribute project. And that was not exactly a clean sheet. Some upgrades to a very heavily governed car. That Porsche team (or anyone who cares) would whip up a killer electric racing car in no-time. No rules, very high performance to cost ratio.
Some racing series limit power on super speedways and the like. FE or our rivaling series could still do that for street circuits.

Who's with me? Who knows whale who might care?



#317 f1paul

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 12:50

It somehow seems a bit like a lottery to me. Don´t get me wrong, the racing is perfectly fine.

 

However, it feels like they are somehow artificially making it more exciting, by punishing the leaders too much. I like the field close, as in all teams in a similar performance window, but at the end I also dont think the best guys should be punished when they are performing the best. 

How is it artificial? 

 

There is no reverse grids, no extra ballast, no changing of power outputs.

 

If you think the qualifying format is "artificial" then I can't agree. 

 

The drivers didn't like the random draw of qualifying in previous seasons when you were randomly drawn into qualifying groups 1, 2, 3 or 4. 

 

The current format is fine and exciting IMO. Surely you would rather be in the top 3 of the championship and go out 1st in qualy rather than be 12th but get to go in group 3.

 

It is not artificial - its called track evolution (this is natural)

 

If an uncompetitive series used Formula E's qualy format then you would probably still get the same top teams and drivers at the front due to the uncompetetivness, its the close competition that is the reason for the "top drivers" starting at the back. Plus, it does not always happen. 



#318 f1paul

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 12:53

But with some thought and commitment applied to the question, the racing would be so much better.

 

Its good now IMO. In fact its excellent.

 

No gimmicks or unfair advantages - pure, hard racing. That's what we want isn't it?



#319 f1paul

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 13:00

Oh absolutely. And a series with spec cars and just a short history is a nearly blank sheet I couldn't wait to start drawing on.

The tight and crazy numerous corners on short circuits I think came largely from them purposely designing a needlessly slow car. Isn't that why FIA gave this weird super long term monopoly on all-electric racing, hardly a sign of technological vision?
These cars could be much quicker, to earn electric racing a more mainstream position in racing. 

- Why RWD only?

- Why semi-open wheel?

- Why the same tires as on a road going sports car?

- Why such a strict power limit, give more freedom to use it wisely!

I feel a lot of the bodywork is merely aesthetic. Lose the whole nose and front wings, barely lose pace. We've seen it would rear "wings" as well.
A more aggressive/progressive battery would open up so much for racing. Imagine batteries 2/3 to 4/5 the size and weight...which SWAP. Take a pit stop for a full battery if you want to make it to the finish line. Even two pit stops could be planned. I'd even consider one such battery to have higher power enabled if we must have some gimmick.
Blank sheet aero and drivetrain would allow for a lot of weight-efficient aero upgrades. If might end up quite Group C-like, but it that a bad thing? Slippery (road relevant) AND really high downforce to not look as silly around corners we know and love. 

Imagine a really slippery race car powered by a heavily upgraded FE drivetrain (50% more power on average?) going down the Monza straight and still hit F1-like top speeds. Wouldn't that be a big deal? Imagine it going through Eau Rouge really quickly, faster than LMP1 if I can have my way with it... Spec aero only needs to be designed ONCE to make it quick. We see what Porsche did with their 919 tribute project. And that was not exactly a clean sheet. Some upgrades to a very heavily governed car. That Porsche team (or anyone who cares) would whip up a killer electric racing car in no-time. No rules, very high performance to cost ratio.
Some racing series limit power on super speedways and the like. FE or our rivaling series could still do that for street circuits.

Who's with me? Who knows whale who might care?

 

Remember Formula E is not even five seasons old yet.

 

Don't expect it to set the world on fire, as said before it is already a massive success when it so easily could have gone wrong.

Cost is the answer to some of your questions, having freedom can be a good thing but if costs start to fly through the roof then that will become a negative.

 

For me, its not just about the speed of a car. That's why I watch other series like World RX, BTCC, a bit of GTs and other touring car series. When I watch I don't go "oh they are a bit slow aren't they, I'm not going to watch it now". Its about the racing, the competition and the excitement.

 

If a driver is on the limit in the heat of battle then that will draw me in, not the speed.

 

Of course, the speed is important to an extent but not as important as the racing. I wouldn't watch a championship that had vehicles that couldn't go above 100MPH for example.

 

FE cars are just as fast if not faster than F3 cars - so that is pretty quick. If you (not aimed at you just in general) don't like FE because they are slow then I presume you don't watch anything else which is slower than an FE car which would be quite a lot of motorsport series - in fact most.  



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#320 Ben1445

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 14:18

Remember Formula E is not even five seasons old yet.

 

Don't expect it to set the world on fire, as said before it is already a massive success when it so easily could have gone wrong.

Cost is the answer to some of your questions, having freedom can be a good thing but if costs start to fly through the roof then that will become a negative.this. 

This. 

 

When FE was first announced only back in Aug 2012 (I think) it was only a couple of months after the first Hybrid ever win at Le Mans. F1 had only adopted KERS three years prior, taken a break from it in 2010, then began to readopt it in 2011 and was still two years away from having it's current substantial Hybrid regulations in place. The idea of electrification in motorsport had only just arrived. The idea of an all electric series was still almost inconceivable. The feeling was that if you believed that any of what we have today in FE was possible, you were being intensely optimistic. A lot has changed in not very much time at all. 

 

Oh absolutely. And a series with spec cars and just a short history is a nearly blank sheet I couldn't wait to start drawing on.

The tight and crazy numerous corners on short circuits I think came largely from them purposely designing a needlessly slow car. Isn't that why FIA gave this weird super long term monopoly on all-electric racing, hardly a sign of technological vision?

The first FE car was developed on a shoestring budget with a very tight deadline. It wasn't intensionally bad, it was the result of things being done quickly and on the cheap. Because FE at that point was just a few guys in suits with a powerpoint presentation. 

 

It's always been 'walk before you can run' on here from those who supported FE from the beginning. I think we're still there now but the thought of jogging is entering the heads of organisers over what to do with Gen3 ... probably. 



#321 RSRally

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 15:30

All wheel drive and battery changing / fast charging are all things they're talking about for the future.

Personally i'd be against the latter two unless they're going to make the races much longer, otherwise you're just highlighting the lack of range again. Energy density of the battery on Gen2 is already much better than the first one.

FE is supposed to be about the drive train so i'm definitely against introducing aero freedom. All it adds to F1 is expense and worse racing.

Perhaps they could drop the grooved tyre in the future to increase cornering speeds. I'd still have them designed to last a whole race though and you'd only be allowed to change to wets if it rained.

#322 Vielleicht

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 16:03

Stoffel Vandoorne was told to take it easy in the second half of the race as the team were worried a driveshaft would give way apparently.

https://e-racing365....m-first-podium/



#323 f1paul

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 16:08

I wondered why he lost a bit of pace - he was looking very good early on. Good signs for the rest of the year.  :up:



#324 Imateria

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 16:12

Are they actually road tyres that they use? My understanding was that they were meant to be all weather tyres, which naturally means grooves not slicks.



#325 RSRally

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 16:13

Are they actually road tyres that they use? My understanding was that they were meant to be all weather tyres, which naturally means grooves not slicks.


No, they are designed specifically for FE i believe.

#326 BRG

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 16:14

What did you make of the Evans/Lotterer battle and the first proper Jaguar win in ages?

The battle for the lead was very tense.  But afterwards, thinking about it, I realised that the tension came from the knowledge that, once Evans had squeezed past, if Lotterer had tried to re-pass it would 95% certainly ended in an incident that put them both out if the race.  Now that isn't really good racing.  These cars are bulky beasts (I was surprised just how big when I saw a Gen 1 car next to other singleseaters at the G'wood FoS) and they simply cannot race cleanly on the tight tracks that FE seems to love so much. 

 

As for 'Jaguar' winning, well, very nice for them, but it isn't really a Jaguar, is it?  Just like Alonso's car at Indy won't be a Mclaren.  When Jaguar have built a chassis, drive train and batteries for FE, then it will be different, but at the moment, the 'manufactuer' involvement is just PR fluff.


Edited by BRG, 15 April 2019 - 16:15.


#327 Imateria

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 16:14

I wondered why he lost a bit of pace - he was looking very good early on. Good signs for the rest of the year.  :up:

Not really the first time we've seen some pace from the HWA car, it was really only ever a matter of time before they started to string it together (and would have been far more concerning if they didn't). I'm more worried about the Venturi drive shafts, thats 3 out of 4 that failed in Rome, with Paffet's not getting a chance, and they've had failures at pretty much every race meeting this season. Time to find a new supplier I think.



#328 Imateria

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 16:16

The battle for the lead was very tense.  But afterwards, thinking about it, I realised that the tension came from the knowledge that, once Evans had squeezed past, if Lotterer had tried to re-pass it would 95% certainly ended in an incident that put them both out if the race.  Now that isn't really good racing.  These cars are bulky beasts (I was surprised just how big when I saw a Gen 1 car next to other singleseaters at the G'wood FoS) and they simply cannot race cleanly on the tight tracks that FE seems to love so much. 

 

As for 'Jaguar' winning, well, very nice for them, but it isn't really a Jaguar, is it?  Just like Alonso's car at Indy won't be a Mclaren.  When Jaguar have built a chassis, drive train and batteries for FE, then it will be different, but at the moment, the 'manufactuer' involvement is just PR fluff.

:rolleyes:



#329 RSRally

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 16:18

As for 'Jaguar' winning, well, very nice for them, but it isn't really a Jaguar, is it? Just like Alonso's car at Indy won't be a Mclaren. When Jaguar have built a chassis, drive train and batteries for FE, then it will be different, but at the moment, the 'manufactuer' involvement is just PR fluff.


They do the drive train don't they, or is it outsourced?

Could say that about a lot of motorsport efforts though, like MSport Ford in WRC or the old Prodrive Subarus.

#330 f1paul

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 16:23

Not really the first time we've seen some pace from the HWA car, it was really only ever a matter of time before they started to string it together (and would have been far more concerning if they didn't). I'm more worried about the Venturi drive shafts, thats 3 out of 4 that failed in Rome, with Paffet's not getting a chance, and they've had failures at pretty much every race meeting this season. Time to find a new supplier I think.

Yep I guess so. But, this is the first time they have looked good for a prolonged amount of time IMO.

 

Before Rome, I wouldn't have thought HWA could win a race but now I think they can.



#331 Vielleicht

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 16:48

As for 'Jaguar' winning, well, very nice for them, but it isn't really a Jaguar, is it?  Just like Alonso's car at Indy won't be a Mclaren.  When Jaguar have built a chassis, drive train and batteries for FE, then it will be different, but at the moment, the 'manufactuer' involvement is just PR fluff.

 

They do the drive train don't they, or is it outsourced?

Could say that about a lot of motorsport efforts though, like MSport Ford in WRC or the old Prodrive Subarus.

 

I do beleive Jaguar are the only team to have developed their powertrain entirely in-house. The others do outsource at least some of the components.

"Jaguar has revealed its I-TYPE 3 Gen2 Formula E car, which features a new powertrain fully developed in-house for the first time.
The British manufacturer has added over 800 new parts - from the areas it is allowed to work on under FE’s tightly-controlled regulations - to the car [...] The custom-made parts make up the motor generator unit, silicon carbide module invertor, transmission, cooling system, suspension, motor control unit and powertrain control software."

(https://uk.motor1.co...ula-e-revealed/)

 

I know it's not the whole car, but those are the parts that really do matter in FE. It's a race winning package as well now and it was 100% Jaguar's engineering team that enabled that to happen. By doing it in-house they also increase the chances of that feeding back into road cars. Considering that I don't think their EV road cars are going to be carbon fibre monocoqued and they will get batteries from specialist companies anyway (just like they do for tyres and fuel and spark plugs and ... ), I think that's about as Jaguar as it really needs to be to be meaningful. Would be nice to have a fully in-house car (chassis, battery and all) I will admit, but I still think this is a proper Jagaur achievement and not just PR.


Edited by Vielleicht, 15 April 2019 - 17:07.


#332 Ben1445

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 16:54

The battle for the lead was very tense.  But afterwards, thinking about it ... 

Sounds like you enjoyed it in the moment   ;)



#333 BRG

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 17:48

They do the drive train don't they, or is it outsourced?

Could say that about a lot of motorsport efforts though, like MSport Ford in WRC or the old Prodrive Subarus.

An M-Sport Ford Fiesta WRC is still a Ford isn't it?  The transmission is spec from X-Trac, i believe but the shell and motor are Ford, albeit much modified.  And M-Sport doesn't claim to be Ford anyway, as the Blue Oval won't fund it.  And the Subarus were pure Subaru, with Banbury cakes on the side.  The Jaguar FE is the equivalent of Ford or Subaru fielding a Nissan fitted with one of their engines.

 

Sounds like you enjoyed it in the moment   ;)

Particularly the moment that half the field ended up in a huge heap.



#334 Imateria

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 18:25

I do beleive Jaguar are the only team to have developed their powertrain entirely in-house. The others do outsource at least some of the components.

"Jaguar has revealed its I-TYPE 3 Gen2 Formula E car, which features a new powertrain fully developed in-house for the first time.
The British manufacturer has added over 800 new parts - from the areas it is allowed to work on under FE’s tightly-controlled regulations - to the car [...] The custom-made parts make up the motor generator unit, silicon carbide module invertor, transmission, cooling system, suspension, motor control unit and powertrain control software."

(https://uk.motor1.co...ula-e-revealed/)

 

I know it's not the whole car, but those are the parts that really do matter in FE. It's a race winning package as well now and it was 100% Jaguar's engineering team that enabled that to happen. By doing it in-house they also increase the chances of that feeding back into road cars. Considering that I don't think their EV road cars are going to be carbon fibre monocoqued and they will get batteries from specialist companies anyway (just like they do for tyres and fuel and spark plugs and ... ), I think that's about as Jaguar as it really needs to be to be meaningful. Would be nice to have a fully in-house car (chassis, battery and all) I will admit, but I still think this is a proper Jagaur achievement and not just PR.

I do believe that Williams is involved with the development of the powertrain, they certianly were for the first couple of years.



#335 Vielleicht

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 18:53

I do believe that Williams is involved with the development of the powertrain, they certianly were for the first couple of years.

Yeah they were. Helped them get things going for the first couple of seasons then they brought it all in-house for the I-Type III package. In fact, to come full circle, some of the lessons Williams Advanced Engineering learned working with Jaguar on their cancelled CX-75 project were channeled into the Williams Gen1 FE battery.

 

An M-Sport Ford Fiesta WRC is still a Ford isn't it? The transmission is spec from X-Trac, i believe but the shell and motor are Ford, albeit much modified. And M-Sport doesn't claim to be Ford anyway, as the Blue Oval won't fund it. And the Subarus were pure Subaru, with Banbury cakes on the side. The Jaguar FE is the equivalent of Ford or Subaru fielding a Nissan fitted with one of their engines.

I would suggest that isn't completely right, the Jaguar FE powertrain is a Jaguar funded and enegineered package entered by Jaguar the company. It just happens be in the back of a customer chassis built by a purely motorsport based constructor (common trhoughout racing history) and with a customer battery (which is analogous to the fuel).


Edited by Vielleicht, 15 April 2019 - 19:45.


#336 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 20:07

On qualifying, we used to have an hour of open quali for decades in F1. 

For Monaco, effectively an F1 track, with car narrower than F1 has been for many decades (1m77), surely they could just open a session for everyone. You have your battery to think of but at the same time need experience with the track and a good banker lap in.

Curiously, road going Jaguar BEVs have more power than the Formula E car. Good luck finding a 1,000 hp Renault or even Mercedes road car.
Even the more affordable Tesla Model 3's rear motor could in theory be bolted into a Formula E car and get the car around. Likely not at FE pace exactly, but to give some perspective.

Battery swaps are a reality, road relevant. Nio is doing it.
Say you have 2 pit stops over an ePrix, batteries are reduced from 58 kWh to 50 kWh to enable the swapping while saving weight. That's 15 kWh to play with.
The race could be extended to 60 minutes + 1 lap (~20 minute stints) and the cars could easily use double the power. Many way to play with race distance and power.
Of course, you'd want wider rear tires, slicks and intermediates, and body components that do generate downforce.
For wet races, with suddenly became a factor after 4 seasons, AWD through a dual motor setup would be welcomed and SUPER road-relevant. Equal motors from and rear would be an interesting cost saving measure and road-relevant challenge to engineer into an efficient package.
 



#337 thegamer23

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 20:16



#338 Ben1445

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 20:23

I would suggest that isn't completely right, the Jaguar FE powertrain is a Jaguar funded and enegineered package entered by Jaguar the company. 

Better than the 2000-2004 F1 team, which was entirely Ford funded and engineered with a Jaguar badge on for marketing purposes. 



#339 Imateria

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 21:45

Better than the 2000-2004 F1 team, which was entirely Ford funded and engineered with a Jaguar badge on for marketing purposes. 

And if you want to go down that silly route then the current set up is a Tata.



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#340 Ben1445

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 22:28

And if you want to go down that silly route then the current set up is a Tata.


Well it was more that Stewart Grand Prix was bought out by Ford, then their marketing folks decided it should carry the Jaguar name but didn’t bother to set up any link with engineering from Jaguar itself and continued to run it with the Ford Cosworth engines that Stewart had been using.
The Jaguar F1 team was a marketing exercise by Ford using Ford engineering.

The Jaguar Formula E team was set up with backing from the Jaguar engineering directors to have an actual link with their EV road car development ... and for marketing as well, sure, what manufacturer in motorsport isn’t in it for that? But it does have the direct link that was absent from the F1 team.

#341 BRG

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 17:41

Better than the 2000-2004 F1 team, which was entirely Ford funded and engineered with a Jaguar badge on for marketing purposes. 

So you are saying that Jaguar are serial offenders then?  That makes it worse!



#342 Ben1445

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 17:52

So you are saying that Jaguar are serial offenders then?  That makes it worse!

:rolleyes:

 

I'm going to assume that "Not being entirely serious since 1999" applies here. 



#343 BRG

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 18:04

:rolleyes:

 

I'm going to assume that "Not being entirely serious since 1999" applies here. 

It always applies.  But the continued use of the errors and mistakes of F1 and its denizens to excuse FE's shortcomings also ought not to be entirely serious.

 

Trumpeting that Audi, Jaguar, Nissan etc are fighting it out in FE is just PR puff.  They aren't.  They are simply funding teams using a spec chassis on spec tyres powered by a spec battery.  Some of them may have made their own electirc motor - or possibly just used wiper motors fr0m their parts bins* - and that really does not make for manufacturers competing with each other.  You can swallow it if you like, but I try (entirely seriously) to keep an open mind, rather than just believing the marketing spiel that is foisted on us.

 

* see first sentence



#344 Ben1445

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 19:03

 

Trumpeting that Audi, Jaguar, Nissan etc are fighting it out in FE is just PR puff.  They aren't. They are simply funding teams using a spec chassis on spec tyres powered by a spec battery.  Some of them may have made their own electric motor - or possibly just used wiper motors fr0m their parts bins* - and that really does not make for manufacturers competing with each other.  You can swallow it if you like, but I try (entirely seriously) to keep an open mind, rather than just believing the marketing spiel that is foisted on us.

Right. 

 

The Jaguar Formula E team was set up with backing from the Jaguar engineering directors to have an actual link with their EV road car development ... and for marketing as well, sure, what manufacturer in motorsport isn’t in it for that? 

I don't think I've ever, seriously, claimed that Formula E (or any manufacturer motorsport for that matter) has not had a large element of marketing in it. All manufacturer motorsport is marketing. I accept that. Some are just more marketing-y than others and we have to assess that ourselves, true, and I do. I do not blindly endorse a manufacturer's engineering credentials based on the fact that their badge is on it. I'm not some naïve, PR swallowing muppet...although you continually paint me as one. 

 

Anyway... 

 

With your entirely serious open mind, what do you make of Vielleicht's post about Jaguar's in-house development? 

"Jaguar has revealed its I-TYPE 3 Gen2 Formula E car, which features a new powertrain fully developed in-house for the first time.
The British manufacturer has added over 800 new parts - from the areas it is allowed to work on under FE’s tightly-controlled regulations - to the car [...] The custom-made parts make up the motor generator unit, silicon carbide module invertor, transmission, cooling system, suspension, motor control unit and powertrain control software."

 

And what do you make, with your entirely serious open mind, of BMW using the same engineering team for its FE powertrain who built the motors, which were in-house BMW, for the i3 and i8 and who will also be working on the next generation of BMWi powertrains? 

 

With an entirely serous and open mind... 


Edited by Ben1445, 16 April 2019 - 19:03.


#345 Vielleicht

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 19:40

...

 

Imagine a really slippery race car powered by a heavily upgraded FE drivetrain (50% more power on average?) going down the Monza straight and still hit F1-like top speeds. Wouldn't that be a big deal? Imagine it going through Eau Rouge really quickly, faster than LMP1 if I can have my way with it... Spec aero only needs to be designed ONCE to make it quick. We see what Porsche did with their 919 tribute project. And that was not exactly a clean sheet. Some upgrades to a very heavily governed car. That Porsche team (or anyone who cares) would whip up a killer electric racing car in no-time. No rules, very high performance to cost ratio

 

....

Interesting you should mention that becuase they're doing a similar one lap record thing with the VW Pikes Peak I.D. R record holder. It's being modified for a Nürburgring Nordschelife attempt. There's more on that in the thread here: https://forums.autos...n-ev/?p=8718217



#346 BRG

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 16:12

With your entirely serious open mind, what do you make of Vielleicht's post about Jaguar's in-house development? 

 

And what do you make, with your entirely serious open mind, of BMW using the same engineering team for its FE powertrain who built the motors, which were in-house BMW, for the i3 and i8 and who will also be working on the next generation of BMWi powertrains? 

 

With an entirely serous and open mind... 

I'd say that both cases rather prove my point.  Fiddling around with an electric motor is not being a 'manufacturer' in the motor racing sense.  Yamaha made F1 engines but no one considers that they were a F1 manufacturer. Still, if you like to pretend that there are a load of different manufacturers all competing in FE, who am I to spoil the fairy tale?



#347 Vielleicht

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 17:10

I'd say that both cases rather prove my point.  Fiddling around with an electric motor is not being a 'manufacturer' in the motor racing sense.  Yamaha made F1 engines but no one considers that they were a F1 manufacturer.

Well now hold on. What do you actually class as a meaningful manufacturer presence in motorsport?

 

Because, really, the manufcaturer 'involvement' in Season 1 (Renault, Audi and Mahindra by my count) was indeed pure marketing fluff as you would put it in that the powertrain was entriely spec for all teams. So the only connection to the manufacturers in question was a bank account, a name on an entry list and maybe an engineer or two. There was no immedite change when development of powertrains was allowed from Season 2 either, but there has been a slow stepping up in commitment. So when we're now at a point where the Jaguar is engineering all of it's powertrain components in-house (as opposed to simply putting their name on a spec unit or paying for a small independant engineering firm to do it for them)... I'm sorry, but I fail to understand how their case* cannot be classed as meaningful involvment in motorsport.

 

*I respect that it's not the same story thoughout the field, there's varying levels of involvment depending on which team you're looking at... though it is on an upward trend.



#348 Vielleicht

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 21:22

Pretty nice race edit here

 



#349 Ben1445

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 07:45

 Still, if you like to pretend that there are a load of different manufacturers all competing in FE, who am I to spoil the fairy tale?

Again, I have never pretended such a thing. 



#350 thegamer23

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 08:02

Again with the spec serie bullshite? 😂
Think i'll pass on that discussion.