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Liberty wants another Chinese GP?


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#51 JHSingo

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 17:05

Joe Saward had a great article about this in his column on www.motorsportweek.com 

 

The demand is booming in China despite what arm chair experts think.  There is a real chance that Spa could be lost to make way for new Asian races once MV retires.

 

MV as in Max Verstappen? Given he's only 21, that's years away - it could easily be 15+. So if that is the idea, those Asian fans could be waiting a while... :lol:

 

Anyway, I echo others here: please no more street circuits. There's enough of those (too many, in fact) already, and they make for awful racing. And please can we stop adding races too - I don't want F1 to become a year round sport. In recent years, I've found it quite exhausting to follow, because you get to October/November and it's still going on. I suppose my younger self would relish that, but I just feel that when the championship is a forgone conclusion and/or wrapped up with races to spare, it makes the rest of them redundant. What's the point in watching when it's over? It's like forcing NHL players to play the maximum seven game series, even though it has been decided in four.


Edited by JHSingo, 16 April 2019 - 17:06.


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#52 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 17:05

Better decision (that offers a better show) = more pleased audience = more profit in the longer term
Most profitable decision but less interesting/exciting for the fans = less pleased audience = less profit in the longer term
Short sighted minds only thinking about short term

 

They are American... modus operandi is p...... your pants to keep warm.

 

:cool:



#53 Dalin80

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 17:10

Another race in china coupled with Pay to view only broadcasting. F1's slow death is proving a lot more interesting than the racing.

 

Maybe Tiananmen Square would prove a good back drop?



#54 ARTGP

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 17:15

I imagine Liberty could be working towards a system of two parallel F1 series, each of which produces top drivers/teams.  Then, it all culminates in a final series of races to determine a single champion. That's how they get a lot more races, and creates more buzz. When one series is on one set of tracks, the other on another set of tracks, there's plenty of animated discussion about who's better than who  since the final matchup between top teams doesn't happen until the final few "Races for the Championship!"

 

This is rather fascinating. A bit like traditional sports like Football, basketball etc...and the divisions and playoffs model.

But it would require 20 F1 teams.  Could be a model to get more manufacturers, or more customer cars ala Haas into the sport.



#55 muramasa

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 17:17

Because we like full grand stands!

 

Chinese-GP-Shanghai-circuit-facts-and-st

 

That stand was turned into banner stand and has always been, 安亭 ANTING for the last sev years and 嘉定 JIADING from this year, but thing is this track's capacity is ginormous, even Silverstone crowd wouldnt fill all the stands of this Shanghai track, and like it or not China's as well as Russia's attendance has been solid and same level as Japan, Spain, Italy, Brazil for years. Some of those figures are bit puzzling as I dont see the level of crowd officially announced in GPs like Bahrain and Baku but at least China you can see the figure in those packed stands. Also atmosphere is there, there are lots of genuine fans gathering and it's been like that for 10 years now. So describing Chinese GP as lacking attendance as well as atmosphere is no longer valid or never has been for the last decade. If one wants to oppose street track you should purely oppose street track itself, same goes for 2 GPs in one country.


Edited by muramasa, 16 April 2019 - 17:20.


#56 Clatter

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 17:18

Better decision (that offers a better show) = more pleased audience = more profit in the longer term
Most profitable decision but less interesting/exciting for the fans = less pleased audience = less profit in the longer term
Short sighted minds only thinking about short term

 


People have been saying the same thing for 20+ years and yet the owners of F1 have still been getting richer.

#57 NixxxoN

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 17:24

People have been saying the same thing for 20+ years and yet the owners of F1 have still been getting richer.

And on the other hand F1 has gotten far more boring and predictable results-wise than a few years ago.

#58 pRy

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 17:32

I'm all for more night street races. I think they should hold a second Monaco GP at night.


Edited by pRy, 16 April 2019 - 17:33.


#59 RA2

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 17:35

And on the other hand F1 has gotten far more boring and predictable results-wise than a few years ago.

 

 

That is rubbish

In 1999 did anyone other tha MS and MK have a chance?


Edited by RA2, 16 April 2019 - 17:36.


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#60 muramasa

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 17:41

I'd rather we go back to Malaysia, Turkey, or add a second round in Japan at Fuji speedway.  

 

It doesn't say a whole lot if you feel the only way to get F1 to fans is to practically drop the race into there morning commute...

Fans should be going to race tracks, not the other way around. This is just lazy.

alas Osaka is proposing to host F1 race at its marine/dock district of the city :lol:

The mayor simply has zero clue about what it takes to host F1 and what hosting F1 race is about nowadays, just being naive (some ****storm going on about Osaka politics for years, one thug party took over the city and prefecture and destroying everything there, such outlandish and ludicrous proposal like hosting F1 coming out is just part of it).



#61 NixxxoN

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 17:42

That is rubbish
In 1999 did anyone other tha MS and MK have a chance?

The idea is to try to improve, not to match bad/uncompetitive years of the past.

#62 pdac

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 18:37

And on the other hand F1 has gotten far more boring and predictable results-wise than a few years ago.

 

Yet the money still keeps rolling in.



#63 NixxxoN

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 18:40

Yet the money still keeps rolling in.

Why you care so much about that, are you a fan or a shareholder?

#64 Nonesuch

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 18:42

That is rubbish

In 1999 did anyone other tha MS and MK have a chance?

 

Yes, Heinz-Harald Frentzen actually had a genuine shot at the title in a Jordan in 1999 but fell off near the end.


Edited by Nonesuch, 16 April 2019 - 18:43.


#65 pdac

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 18:46

Why you care so much about that, are you a fan or a shareholder?

 

Why do you try to assume anything about a statement that is not written there. What I am pointing out is F1 is business - big business. Decisions will be made based on business reasons. I'm not saying I like what is happening. But I do understand why it is happening, why it makes sense to those who are doing it and why they really couldn't give a flying whatever about what you or I think (even though they may pretend that they do).

 

They have two primary sources of income: broadcasting rights and hosting fees. To grow the broadcasting rights income is tricky. To grow the hosting fee incomes is simple - just add more GP. It does not matter so much about the quality of the racing that can be provided - all that's important is that there are more of them and that the circuits pay a nice amount.



#66 muramasa

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 19:00

Yet the money still keeps rolling in.

Yet even massive sell-out crowd Silverstone is not making any profit, which really embodies fundamental and fatal flaw in F1's finance structure, Suzuka never ever made profit in the last 2 decades, just even only briefly in peak year in 2006, the rest they are making substantial loss by hosting F1, Honda Motor Co. who is parent company of mobility land that operates Suzuka and Motegi always compensate the loss. All these despite such high ticket and TV prices.

 

Currently Formula 1 is on its legacy illusion so new countries are still willing to pay and host F1 by making huge loss, believing the loss will be outnumbered by something intangible like country/regional promotion and tourism and all that, TV stations in established countries are still holding on to broadcasting F1 for the last remnants of viewers, but how long do all these last?



#67 pdac

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 19:02

Yet even massive sell-out crowd Silverstone is not making any profit, which really embodies fundamental and fatal flaw in F1's finance structure, Suzuka never ever made profit in the last 2 decades, just even only briefly in peak year in 2006, the rest they are making substantial loss by hosting F1, Honda Motor Co. who is parent company of mobility land that operates Suzuka and Motegi always compensate the loss. All these despite such high ticket and TV prices.

 

Currently Formula 1 is on its legacy illusion so new countries are still willing to pay and host F1 by making huge loss, believing the loss will be outnumbered by something intangible like country/regional promotion and tourism and all that, TV stations in established countries are still holding on to broadcasting F1 for the last remnants of viewers, but how long do all these last?

 

That's not a flaw in F1's financial structure. They still cough up the hosting fee. That's a problem with the Silverstone business model.



#68 Clatter

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 19:12

And on the other hand F1 has gotten far more boring and predictable results-wise than a few years ago.

 


Totally agree, but it's still selling and bringing in a profit. For the main part they are going to keep doing the things that will increase that profit.

#69 Clatter

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 19:14

I'm all for more night street races. I think they should hold a second Monaco GP at night.

 


Only if they make it truly exciting and not have the lights.

#70 RA2

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 19:17

Silverstone made the decision to extend the track, the losses are for them to live with.

Them having to relay the asphalt, again F1's fault?

#71 Clatter

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 19:18

Why you care so much about that, are you a fan or a shareholder?

 


I refer you back to your own post

Why the heck they care so damn much about profit. Decide whats best, not what's most profitable. FFS
Street circuits are crap and only Baku is decent

 


All were doing is answering your question. Doesn't mean we agree with what they are doing, but they are not going to do unprofitable things just to satisfy a few fans.

Edited by Clatter, 16 April 2019 - 19:20.


#72 Boxerevo

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 19:19

Liberty i am gonna sleep, sleep good and hard.

 

Good luck with the new fans but that one was my last China's grand prix. Too old for this impossible hour in my country.

 

Just my personal and biased opinion.



#73 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 20:31

That is rubbish
In 1999 did anyone other tha MS and MK have a chance?


The year that it was between MH, EI and HHF? Neither MS or whoever MK is had a chance.

#74 cpbell

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 21:00

Another street circuit, seriously ?

They want F1 to be a street circuit championship, it seems.  Why else force Silverstone out by refusing to help them make the race break even and then start referencing a possible GP in the London suburbs?



#75 cpbell

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 21:06

Joe Saward had a great article about this in his column on www.motorsportweek.com 

 

The demand is booming in China despite what arm chair experts think.  There is a real chance that Spa could be lost to make way for new Asian races once MV retires.

If that happens, I will stop following F1.



#76 azza200

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 21:09

Could always just run it on the track Formuala E use's be a challenge for the driver's. 



#77 Dolph

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 21:20

Well, there are practical limits to that, aren't there.

 

 

Well, Liberty says its going to add races to the calendar, doesn't it.



#78 Dolph

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 21:25

I think China should remain a one-grand prix state.

 

Why? one of the biggest economies of the world, one of the biggest markets for cars, the most populous country. If you're ever gonna have two races in a country then those figures make a lot of sense.



#79 Dolph

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 21:26

Why the heck they care so damn much about profit. Decide whats best, not what's most profitable. FFS
Street circuits are crap and only Baku is decent

 

They're a business, that's why. They aren't in charge of it to only think about race fans.



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#80 Dolph

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 21:27

Joe Saward had a great article about this in his column on www.motorsportweek.com 

 

The demand is booming in China despite what arm chair experts think.  There is a real chance that Spa could be lost to make way for new Asian races once MV retires.

 

Once Max Verstappen retires? What, in 2042?  :rotfl:



#81 NixxxoN

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 21:28

They're a business, that's why. They aren't in charge of it to only think about race fans.

Without fans this business is nothing. And if you are a fan, its incredible that you defend that.

#82 Fatgadget

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 21:36

Without fans this business is nothing. And if you are a fan, its incredible that you defend that.

Nonsense.Fanboys are overrated. I can't prove it but I'm sure the vast majority that  watch most sports are casual viewers. Not those that constantly bitch and moan how a particular sport should be just so. Just lurk on any forum. Mostly the same jockeys playing the same tune!..They are vociferous alright! :lol:



#83 Dolph

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 21:37

Jesus, this working class clueless BS has got to stop. 

 

Businesses exist to make money.

Businesses are not inherently bad. 

China is a big car market, the most populous country and willing to invest to put on a good show.

Why are people assuming they are going to cock it up???

Street races are not bad! Which ones are we talking about here anyway? Street races in Formula E, Indycar and the Azerbaijan GP are exciting. Are we only talking about the Monaco GP here!?

 

If we get 25 great GPs per year rather than 21, then its good. If its too much for you you can skip the four most boring ones. Easy.

Do wins get devalued if we get 25 races instead of 21? Yes, but that ship sailed 60 years ago when we got 10 races in 1960 instead of 7 in 1950 - that was a 42% increase. 



#84 Dolph

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 21:40

Without fans this business is nothing. And if you are a fan, its incredible that you defend that.

 

 

Its incredible that I defend a business wanting to make money? Really? Just because I'm a fan doesn't mean I have to act like a clueless moron.


Edited by Dolph, 16 April 2019 - 21:41.


#85 pdac

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 21:52

Jesus, this working class clueless BS has got to stop. 

 

Businesses exist to make money.

Businesses are not inherently bad. 

China is a big car market, the most populous country and willing to invest to put on a good show.

Why are people assuming they are going to cock it up???

Street races are not bad! Which ones are we talking about here anyway? Street races in Formula E, Indycar and the Azerbaijan GP are exciting. Are we only talking about the Monaco GP here!?

 

If we get 25 great GPs per year rather than 21, then its good. If its too much for you you can skip the four most boring ones. Easy.

Do wins get devalued if we get 25 races instead of 21? Yes, but that ship sailed 60 years ago when we got 10 races in 1960 instead of 7 in 1950 - that was a 42% increase. 

 

Careful. Working class does not mean business clueless. In fact quite the opposite (most sole traders are or were working class). Agree with the "clueless BS" bit.

 

But, really, what you often hear are just individuals who are miffed because the things that they like change for the worse. I don't know whether it's just young people but once you have a few years behind you, you realise that things are always changing and mostly for the worse. You either have to go with the change or become a grumpy old man with no friends and a bitter outlook.

 

But it helps if you try to understand why things are changing (like, for example, it's being run by business people who are there to make money not to fund charitable operations).



#86 Fatgadget

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 21:53

MV as in Max Verstappen? Given he's only 21, that's years away - it could easily be 15+. So if that is the idea, those Asian fans could be waiting a while... :lol:

 

Anyway, I echo others here: please no more street circuits. There's enough of those (too many, in fact) already, and they make for awful racing. And please can we stop adding races too - I don't want F1 to become a year round sport. In recent years, I've found it quite exhausting to follow, because you get to October/November and it's still going on. I suppose my younger self would relish that, but I just feel that when the championship is a forgone conclusion and/or wrapped up with races to spare, it makes the rest of them redundant. What's the point in watching when it's over? It's like forcing NHL players to play the maximum seven game series, even though it has been decided in four.

The days of conjuring up 'natural' race circuits the likes   of Silverstone,Monza Suzuka,Brands Hatch,Kyalami etc etc looong gone. Unless of course you can come up with the dosh to build a F1 circuit in the Himalayas or some such ..when F1 is declining in popularity!

 

All flippancy aside .Lets not forget the whole point about modern day street circuits is the bang for the buck.


Edited by Fatgadget, 16 April 2019 - 21:57.


#87 Mila

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 21:57

A track running around a Xinjiang internment camp would offer a captive audience.


Edited by Mila, 17 April 2019 - 00:03.


#88 NixxxoN

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 22:05

Jesus, this working class clueless BS has got to stop. 
 
Businesses exist to make money.
Businesses are not inherently bad. 
China is a big car market, the most populous country and willing to invest to put on a good show.
Why are people assuming they are going to cock it up???
Street races are not bad! Which ones are we talking about here anyway? Street races in Formula E, Indycar and the Azerbaijan GP are exciting. Are we only talking about the Monaco GP here!?
 
If we get 25 great GPs per year rather than 21, then its good. If its too much for you you can skip the four most boring ones. Easy.
Do wins get devalued if we get 25 races instead of 21? Yes, but that ship sailed 60 years ago when we got 10 races in 1960 instead of 7 in 1950 - that was a 42% increase.

 
 

Its incredible that I defend a business wanting to make money? Really? Just because I'm a fan doesn't mean I have to act like a clueless moron.

So I suppose you only eat mcdonalds instead of quality food, because all that matters is business profit, I get it.

#89 Fatgadget

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 22:22

Careful. Working class does not mean business clueless. In fact quite the opposite (most sole traders are or were working class). Agree with the "clueless BS" bit.

 

But, really, what you often hear are just individuals who are miffed because the things that they like change for the worse. I don't know whether it's just young people but once you have a few years behind you, you realise that things are always changing and mostly for the worse. You either have to go with the change or become a grumpy old man with no friends and a bitter outlook.

 

But it helps if you try to understand why things are changing (like, for example, it's being run by business people who are there to make money not to fund charitable operations).

I was agreeing with you up untill..!

 

Comeone. We haven't had it so good. At least those of us in the UK....I shudder the memories of the 3 day week :eek:



#90 JHSingo

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 23:21

All flippancy aside .Lets not forget the whole point about modern day street circuits is the bang for the buck.

 

A lot of people who go to street circuits don't go for the racing, they go for the "experience" and the whole razzmatazz of the event, the concerts, the parties, etc. They don't care what the racing is like, probably couldn't name many drivers, and care more about getting a nice photo for their InstaTwitFace page to show their mates they were there.

 

Which is all great, but if said street circuits result in snoozers for the rest of us watching on TV, what's the benefit? Yes, viewing figures are declining - and how is that going to be helped by adding increasingly more unimaginative street circuits to the calendar, which result in crap racing? I don't for a second believe you're going to get a whole new generation of fans because you've got a race in some city some place - those that go and care about the sport are already converted, and the others are just there for the reasons I mentioned earlier.



#91 ch103

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 23:24

MV as in Max Verstappen? Given he's only 21, that's years away - it could easily be 15+. So if that is the idea, those Asian fans could be waiting a while... :lol:

 

Anyway, I echo others here: please no more street circuits. There's enough of those (too many, in fact) already, and they make for awful racing. And please can we stop adding races too - I don't want F1 to become a year round sport. In recent years, I've found it quite exhausting to follow, because you get to October/November and it's still going on. I suppose my younger self would relish that, but I just feel that when the championship is a forgone conclusion and/or wrapped up with races to spare, it makes the rest of them redundant. What's the point in watching when it's over? It's like forcing NHL players to play the maximum seven game series, even though it has been decided in four.

Yes Verstappen.  It could happen before he retires too, if his countrymen decide not to support him as feverishly.



#92 loki

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 23:47

Are they sure the timing is right? Don't they know the Chinese auto market has been slowing quite a bit for some months now? That growth of that market is because of government subsidies? That auto manufacturers have realized it's a volatile market?

 

Are they taking into account the looming trade war with the US?

 

In 2018 the Chinese auto market contracted 3%.  Hardly quite a bit.  Total sales 28 million units compared to the US with about 17 million units.  The Chinese domestic auto supply chain doesn't rely too much on the US.  China is an order of magnitude larger in terms of population than the US or Europe.  Even with the overall slowing of the economy China is still growing faster than the other F1 markets.  There are cities of 5 million people over there most in the west haven't even heard of.  Plenty of opportunity for expansion.



#93 beachdrifter

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 23:56

Well, there are practical limits to that, aren't there.

 

Apparently they believe 1 or 2 more (or whatever the number was) is still practical!



#94 loki

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 23:58

Without fans this business is nothing. And if you are a fan, its incredible that you defend that.

I doubt you're in the position to determine what constitutes a fan or not.  Over the last 30 plus years I've been to dozens of street races.  All the classics in the US.  People of all interest levels go and enjoy the race.  The Euro/Brit/F1 centric nature of this forum as a general rule does not have the depth of experience to assert a well founded opinion on what is or isn't a good street race.  There haven't been that many street races over there like Long Beach or Toronto.  For those that don't like street races fair enough.  That's their prerogative.  But to generalize an entire group of fans because of preconceived notions about what those fans like or don't like is wide of the mark.  These events develop people that are fans of the event but perhaps not so much the series.  They enjoy coming and spending the weekend at the event but may not follow the ins and outs of the sport like those here.  Of everyone that watches or follows F1 not everyone is die hard enough to spend hours on a forum discussing it.  It's a very slim percentage.  Us diehard fans need to respect that not all that enjoy F1 or even motor racing do so on the scale with which we do.



#95 kumo7

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 00:12

 
 
So I suppose you only eat mcdonalds instead of quality food, because all that matters is business profit, I get it.

 

This is interesting...

 

I imagine Monaco if I hear Formula1 race on street, right in the middle of a historical compound.

But I wonder what would it be in China, more likely a Detroit like situation in between the new buildings.

 

To book success in a street circuit is very tricky, AB is not a bad example, but Valencia, Detroit,.. all failed...

 

 

Would be delighted to see GP in Hong Kong island tho!



#96 PayasYouRace

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 06:40

by adding increasingly more unimaginative street circuits to the calendar, which result in crap racing?


I just want to pick you up on this. Of the few street circuits we have had added to F1 in recent years, it seems like they’re all trying to outdo each other with new unique features.

You had Valencia with the swing bridge, and Singapore has the old bridge and the track going under the grandstand. Then Baku has the castle section and the epic long straight with the super fast curves at the beginning.

If anything F1’s street circuits (all 3 of them out of 21 races) are getting more imaginative.

#97 PayasYouRace

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 06:42

Yes Verstappen. It could happen before he retires too, if his countrymen decide not to support him as feverishly.


Haha! Good one.

#98 Widefoot2

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 06:42

Since China is putting a lot of emphasis on controlling (or at least leading) the electric vehicle revolution, I suspect they'd be better off concentrating on getting more EV racing in place, rather than a failing product like F1.  While the "glamour" of F1 seems to still have some pull, it's riding on its history, not the present-day track product.

 

China's also famous for air pollution, so EV racing would offer a symbolic aspect over petrol racing.  My heart's with F1 (or what F1 used to be), but I feel that if there's going to be a 2000th F1 race, it'll be hard for us in 2019 to recognize.  Given the rancid nature of present day competition, perhaps that's a good thing.



#99 Yoshi

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 06:54

I'd rather we go back to Malaysia, Turkey, or add a second round in Japan at Fuji speedway.  

 

Turkey or Fuji Speedway - yes please  :up: 
 

Will it be called the Smog GP of Beijing?  Liberty should concentrate on securing the British, German and Italian GP's among other historic tracks before shoehorning more unwanted street tracks into the calendar.

There is no much support to get a good deal for those - based on news I read last year as example for Germany.. :( 



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#100 kumo7

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 07:36

Yeongam

 

https://www.google.c...264,3503m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x3573a59866abbe11:0xb8d035c54ddc746d!8m2!3d34.7381177!4d126.4154292

 

This was an interesting attempt. Seen from the google map, the city was not built around it!