Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Liberty wants another Chinese GP?


  • Please log in to reply
154 replies to this topic

#101 NixxxoN

NixxxoN
  • Member

  • 2,196 posts
  • Joined: June 17

Posted 17 April 2019 - 08:00

I doubt you're in the position to determine what constitutes a fan or not. Over the last 30 plus years I've been to dozens of street races. All the classics in the US. People of all interest levels go and enjoy the race. The Euro/Brit/F1 centric nature of this forum as a general rule does not have the depth of experience to assert a well founded opinion on what is or isn't a good street race. There haven't been that many street races over there like Long Beach or Toronto. For those that don't like street races fair enough. That's their prerogative. But to generalize an entire group of fans because of preconceived notions about what those fans like or don't like is wide of the mark. These events develop people that are fans of the event but perhaps not so much the series. They enjoy coming and spending the weekend at the event but may not follow the ins and outs of the sport like those here. Of everyone that watches or follows F1 not everyone is die hard enough to spend hours on a forum discussing it. It's a very slim percentage. Us diehard fans need to respect that not all that enjoy F1 or even motor racing do so on the scale with which we do.

Set up a poll to see if fans want to watch a procession in narrow streets of a city.

This is interesting...

I imagine Monaco if I hear Formula1 race on street, right in the middle of a historical compound.
But I wonder what would it be in China, more likely a Detroit like situation in between the new buildings.

To book success in a street circuit is very tricky, AB is not a bad example, but Valencia, Detroit,.. all failed...


Would be delighted to see GP in Hong Kong island tho!


China hasnt got many nice ancient locations left I think. WW2 + civil war destroyed a lot. And i doubt F1 circuits would fit in the forbidden city :)

Advertisement

#102 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 8,262 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 April 2019 - 08:56

Set up a poll to see if fans want to watch a procession in narrow streets of a city.


China hasnt got many nice ancient locations left I think. WW2 + civil war destroyed a lot. And i doubt F1 circuits would fit in the forbidden city :)

 

So who are you going to poll? How are you going to get a representative sample of the F1 viewing audience here?



#103 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 8,262 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 April 2019 - 08:59

I was agreeing with you up untill..!

 

Comeone. We haven't had it so good. At least those of us in the UK....I shudder the memories of the 3 day week :eek:

 

Don't forget the scheduled power cuts - getting out the candles in a jar and checking the batteries in the transistor radio were working.



#104 7WDC

7WDC
  • Member

  • 97 posts
  • Joined: December 15

Posted 17 April 2019 - 09:25

Will we get to 30 GP`s per year till 2025?



#105 Fastcake

Fastcake
  • Member

  • 9,466 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 17 April 2019 - 09:33

I just want to pick you up on this. Of the few street circuits we have had added to F1 in recent years, it seems like they’re all trying to outdo each other with new unique features.

You had Valencia with the swing bridge, and Singapore has the old bridge and the track going under the grandstand. Then Baku has the castle section and the epic long straight with the super fast curves at the beginning.

If anything F1’s street circuits (all 3 of them out of 21 races) are getting more imaginative.


Under appreciated point I feel. It was the old days that saw F1 cars running around an indistinguishable car park one afternoon. Nowadays there has been an attempt to make street circuits more unique, be that with track features, background, or the time of day. And it’s an example of one, but Baku at least saw the organisers try to create a circuit good for racing, which has been the traditional problem with street circuits.

#106 NixxxoN

NixxxoN
  • Member

  • 2,196 posts
  • Joined: June 17

Posted 17 April 2019 - 10:34

So who are you going to poll? How are you going to get a representative sample of the F1 viewing audience here?

Do them in races, in F1 mag subscriptions... a bit of imagination

#107 Dolph

Dolph
  • Member

  • 7,187 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 17 April 2019 - 10:38

 
 
So I suppose you only eat mcdonalds instead of quality food, because all that matters is business profit, I get it.

 

 

Putting words in my mouth and then making fun of them. Why?



#108 NixxxoN

NixxxoN
  • Member

  • 2,196 posts
  • Joined: June 17

Posted 17 April 2019 - 11:28

Putting words in my mouth and then making fun of them. Why?

Well, you pretty much said profit is almost everything, and if you think otherwise you are a "clueless working class BS-er" :)
Therefore all the restaurants in the world should be low quality fast foods, to give an example

Edited by NixxxoN, 17 April 2019 - 11:31.


#109 Dunc

Dunc
  • Member

  • 733 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 17 April 2019 - 11:39

I'm going to say again that this is why I think non-Championship races should make a comeback.

 

Run to Formula One specifications but with looser rules on things like engine development, cars being entered (anything from one to three), drivers taking part etc. For example, if this year's engine is a dog, at a non-championship race the team can bring a completely different one, which could then help with development for the championship. The teams could also give young drivers/test drivers/hot prospects the chance to show what they can do. Obviously, there would be no obligation to show up so the organisers would have to make sure there was prize money to be paid immediately as an incentive.

 

They can allow places like China and the USA to have extra races without putting more strain on the championship calendar. In addition, it could allow older circuits like Zolder or Brands Hatch to play host to F1 races again without spending the fortunes needed to make them GP suitable again.



#110 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 8,262 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 April 2019 - 11:44

Do them in races, in F1 mag subscriptions... a bit of imagination

 

The vast majority of F1 viewers do not subscribe to magazines (even I don't) and do not go to races either. This is a typical misconception that people have - a fan is someone like me. Not true.



#111 Widefoot2

Widefoot2
  • Member

  • 425 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 17 April 2019 - 11:52

The vast majority of F1 viewers do not subscribe to magazines (even I don't) and do not go to races either. This is a typical misconception that people have - a fan is someone like me. Not true.

Yeah, this is a big change for me over the last 25 years.  I used to get many of the major US magazines - Autoweek, Road and Track, Car and Driver, etc.  Going back further to the 80's, a number of "hot rod" subscriptions too.

 

Now I just get Autoweek, mostly for nostalgic reasons.  I also get Racecar Engineering, with occasional lapses in subscription.  I'm in a RE lull, need to re-up.



#112 danmills

danmills
  • Member

  • 1,226 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 17 April 2019 - 11:55

^Get ready for the Beijing 500. 

 

Where the 500 represents the number of viewers, not KM or Laps.



#113 NixxxoN

NixxxoN
  • Member

  • 2,196 posts
  • Joined: June 17

Posted 17 April 2019 - 12:08

The vast majority of F1 viewers do not subscribe to magazines (even I don't) and do not go to races either. This is a typical misconception that people have - a fan is someone like me. Not true.

Typical die-hard fans do one of those two, or both, so it would be fine

#114 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 8,262 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 April 2019 - 14:22

Typical die-hard fans do one of those two, or both, so it would be fine

 

But F1 is not trying to appeal to a typical die-hard fan. If they did that, they would go bust.



#115 Dolph

Dolph
  • Member

  • 7,187 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 17 April 2019 - 14:44

Well, you pretty much said profit is almost everything, and if you think otherwise you are a "clueless working class BS-er" :)
Therefore all the restaurants in the world should be low quality fast foods, to give an example

 

Oh my god, you are completely clueless



#116 Garndell

Garndell
  • Member

  • 864 posts
  • Joined: April 15

Posted 17 April 2019 - 15:27

So who are you going to poll? How are you going to get a representative sample of the F1 viewing audience here?

 

www.f1fanvoice.com

 

This website has you covered, unless you think that is also not representative.



#117 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 8,262 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 April 2019 - 15:50

www.f1fanvoice.com

 

This website has you covered, unless you think that is also not representative.

 

I can tell you that is in no way representative.

 

There are literally millions of people who follow F1 who do nothing more that switch on their TV when it's GP weekend. They do not partake in anything motorsport related, but (some, at least) will have opinions as to what, if anything, should change or remain in F1. Unless you do contact a representative sample of the population and then do a simple filter on those who response Yes to the question "Do you ever watch Formula 1 (either attending races or watching the coverage on TV)? Yes/No/Don't know what Formula 1 is", you are not getting a full picture.

 

On the other hand, you could simply assume that whatever the "true" fans want must be what they want too. It really depends with whom the biggest pot of potential cash is laying - with the "true" fans or those millions.



#118 Nonesuch

Nonesuch
  • Member

  • 15,870 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 17 April 2019 - 15:51

A street circuit in PR China could be cool. They have plenty of cities that make for an awesome background, and there's plenty of Chinese to fill the stands.

 

If they want they can even make an awesome track and build a city around it. One of the "benefits" of the People's Republic.

 

In any case, I'm still hoping for that Grand Prix in Nigeria. Get Africa on the calender!  :up:


Edited by Nonesuch, 17 April 2019 - 15:51.


#119 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 8,262 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 April 2019 - 18:12

A street circuit in PR China could be cool. They have plenty of cities that make for an awesome background, and there's plenty of Chinese to fill the stands.

 

If they want they can even make an awesome track and build a city around it. One of the "benefits" of the People's Republic.

 

In any case, I'm still hoping for that Grand Prix in Nigeria. Get Africa on the calender!  :up:

 

Yes, but will be be able to see the cars through the smog?



Advertisement

#120 Nonesuch

Nonesuch
  • Member

  • 15,870 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 17 April 2019 - 18:47

For sure. You can go to Guangzhou ...
 
DErxQkb.jpg

Chengdu ...

csmAhCM.jpg
 
or Wuhan.
 
HjSbmZF.jpg
 
Plenty of locations to be found that would look great on TV.



#121 NixxxoN

NixxxoN
  • Member

  • 2,196 posts
  • Joined: June 17

Posted 17 April 2019 - 19:40

But F1 is not trying to appeal to a typical die-hard fan. If they did that, they would go bust.

Who is F1? You mean liberty?
Who they try to appeal then?

Oh my god, you are completely clueless

Why am I? Any arguments out there? I guess not.
Fast foods are by far the most profitable kind of restaurants, so...
This sounds like you ran out of them and you throw in the Ad Hominem to try to run away

Edited by NixxxoN, 17 April 2019 - 19:41.


#122 Fastcake

Fastcake
  • Member

  • 9,466 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 17 April 2019 - 20:25

For sure. You can go to Guangzhou ...Chengdu ...or Wuhan.
 
Plenty of locations to be found that would look great on TV.

 

They all look like a bunch of indistinguishable skyscrapers to me. Any of those pictures could be any city in the world, and no one would ever know the difference. And since a street circuit isn't going to be around the busiest part of town, it's just going to be a cluster of tall buildings in the background. Or a hazy blur in the background, given China's terrible air quality problem.

 

A good looking street circuit needs to have something unique to the locale, something that allows viewers to switch on and instantly know where they are.



#123 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 8,675 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 17 April 2019 - 20:50

The year that it was between MH, EI and HHF? Neither MS or whoever MK is had a chance.


And the season where we had 10 of 11 teams score points, and the team that didnt score had one of the,then regarded as, top 3 drivers in the series.
That year also saw Minardi mess up a potential podium, but also had a podium consisting of Stewart GP and Prost.

It was a fairly nice year.

#124 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 20,179 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 17 April 2019 - 20:54

And the season where we had 10 of 11 teams score points, and the team that didnt score had one of the,then regarded as, top 3 drivers in the series.
That year also saw Minardi mess up a potential podium, but also had a podium consisting of Stewart GP and Prost.
It was a fairly nice year.


Hard to choose between 1997 and 1999 for the most competitive season of that decade.

#125 Dolph

Dolph
  • Member

  • 7,187 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 17 April 2019 - 21:04

Why am I? Any arguments out there? I guess not.
Fast foods are by far the most profitable kind of restaurants, so...
This sounds like you ran out of them and you throw in the Ad Hominem to try to run away

 

 

No, I don't argue with you the same as I don't argue with my children on some things. If there is no sense in what you are saying there is no sensible argument or discussion to be had.

 

I've said what I wanted to say and I am not going down the line arguing some statements you are attributing to me that I have not said. You've got to draw a line at some point and say I'm stepping out of this nuthouse.



#126 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 8,262 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 April 2019 - 21:15

Who is F1? You mean liberty?
Who they try to appeal then?

 

Yes, sorry, I should have said Liberty.

 

And who? Why those who are not currently following F1 and who have money to spend. So definitely not the current die-hard fans. You grow a sport by attracting new followers and new money (as well as increasing the income from the existing followers)



#127 loki

loki
  • Member

  • 5,877 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 18 April 2019 - 02:00

Set up a poll to see if fans want to watch a procession in narrow streets of a city.

 

That shows you haven't been to a popular street race.  And you still don't speak for all fans...



#128 Beri

Beri
  • Member

  • 1,550 posts
  • Joined: January 14

Posted 18 April 2019 - 06:15

That shows you haven't been to a popular street race.  And you still don't speak for all fans...


In IndyCar, one could say Long Beach is a popular street race. But I've seen some absolute borefests there.

#129 Nonesuch

Nonesuch
  • Member

  • 15,870 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 18 April 2019 - 13:34


A good looking street circuit needs to have something unique to the locale, something that allows viewers to switch on and instantly know where they are.

 
That can be done when designing an actual track, and making sure it hits the right spots. Then it's just a matter of finding the right camera positions to tie the track into the surroundings.
 
Things can become iconic. Nothing is on the first go. The Singapore Grand Prix helped bring places like the Marina Bay Sands to the attention of millions of people. Now that's one of the first things one notices in the coverage. It would just need some time.



#130 Sterzo

Sterzo
  • Member

  • 1,387 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 18 April 2019 - 13:38

 
That can be done when designing an actual track, and making sure it hits the right spots. Then it's just a matter of finding the right camera positions to tie the track into the surroundings.
 
Things can become iconic. Nothing is on the first go. The Singapore Grand Prix helped bring places like the Marina Bay Sands to the attention of millions of people. Now that's one of the first things one notices in the coverage. It would just need some time.

Exactly. The Monaco GP was derided as a ridiculous idea when it was announced in the nineteen twenties. It obviously wasn't going to last.



#131 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 16,958 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 18 April 2019 - 18:29

Exactly. The Monaco GP was derided as a ridiculous idea when it was announced in the nineteen twenties.

People back then had a lot more sense than they are given credit for. 



#132 BalanceUT

BalanceUT
  • Member

  • 2,027 posts
  • Joined: February 16

Posted 19 April 2019 - 03:06

Set up a poll to see if fans want to watch a procession in narrow streets of a city.


China hasnt got many nice ancient locations left I think. WW2 + civil war destroyed a lot. And i doubt F1 circuits would fit in the forbidden city :)

Definitely could construct a circuit on Tiananmen Square. That is freaking huge beyond belief. 



#133 HeadFirst

HeadFirst
  • Member

  • 3,466 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 19 April 2019 - 03:18

I think Liberty really meant a do-over of this year's GP, due to the fact that it basically sucked. I'm all for a do-over, but scheduling might be an issue.



#134 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 20,179 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 19 April 2019 - 07:17

They could always ask the FIA to retroactively declare the Chinese GP a non-championship event in the hope that the next GP would be more exciting. /s



#135 NixxxoN

NixxxoN
  • Member

  • 2,196 posts
  • Joined: June 17

Posted 19 April 2019 - 11:01

Definitely could construct a circuit on Tiananmen Square. That is freaking huge beyond belief.

Formula E circuit definitely

#136 johnmhinds

johnmhinds
  • Member

  • 7,292 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 19 April 2019 - 15:45

Liberty is just chasing the money.

 

All their attempts to get something done in America have been thrown back in their faces so this is probably their only shot at signing up some big deals.

 

They're probably going to have the same issues that Bernie had though with circuit promotors promising the world and then failing to deliver on those promises.



#137 loki

loki
  • Member

  • 5,877 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 21 April 2019 - 02:11

I think Liberty really meant a do-over of this year's GP, due to the fact that it basically sucked. I'm all for a do-over, but scheduling might be an issue.

If F1 needed do-over race for every bad race the season would never end...



#138 jcbc3

jcbc3
  • RC Forum Host

  • 7,366 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 21 April 2019 - 09:37

Definitely could construct a circuit on Tiananmen Square. That is freaking huge beyond belief.


They did that already and called it the Las Vegas GP.

330px-Circuit_Caesars_Palace.png

#139 Nathan

Nathan
  • Member

  • 4,988 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 21 April 2019 - 16:06

What Liberty need to do with China and India is spend money looking for karters and bring them to the point of consideration for F1 teams.  A reasonably competitive Chinese driver will do more for the market than a second race.  



Advertisement

#140 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 35,825 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 21 April 2019 - 17:05

What Liberty need to do with China and India is spend money looking for karters and bring them to the point of consideration for F1 teams. A reasonably competitive Chinese driver will do more for the market than a second race.

Why would Liberty do that? Its really not their function, and is an expensive business that could be an awful long time before the right person came thru the system.

#141 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 8,262 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 21 April 2019 - 17:09

Why would Liberty do that? Its really not their function, and is an expensive business that could be an awful long time before the right person came thru the system.

 

They could put the bricks in place without actually funding the entire operation themselves. It's a long-term investment but the rewards are there.



#142 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 35,825 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 21 April 2019 - 17:33

They could put the bricks in place without actually funding the entire operation themselves. It's a long-term investment but the rewards are there.

 


Can't, for one minute, see Liberty doing what is really a role the teams should be doing.

#143 muramasa

muramasa
  • Member

  • 8,202 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 21 April 2019 - 17:44

China by themselves will invest and have been investing in its drivers so there is absolutely no need for organizers to spend money for them. Given the scale of pool, competitive drivers will emerge from China sooner rather than later. Organizers spending money to bring up one country's drivers is just wrong anyway, that's not their job, their job is to present better infographics, better TV feed, give more money to teams rather than capitalists, come up with better way to proliferate and increase exposure of F1.



#144 Nathan

Nathan
  • Member

  • 4,988 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 21 April 2019 - 19:25

Why would Liberty do that? Its really not their function, and is an expensive business that could be an awful long time before the right person came thru the system.

 

To gain Chinese and Indian fans.  They are massive markets, I fail to see how there wouldn't be long-term returns on that investment. Infact, I'm not too sure how many other entities would benefit more from a Chinese/Indian F1 star than Liberty.  Local races themselves are not going to bring a swell of new Chinese interest.  Beyond the business model I agree, outside the wheelhouse sure, but Liberty own F2 and it's the recipe they need to get what they want.


Edited by Nathan, 21 April 2019 - 19:28.


#145 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 35,825 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 21 April 2019 - 19:41

To gain Chinese and Indian fans.  They are massive markets, I fail to see how there wouldn't be long-term returns on that investment. Infact, I'm not too sure how many other entities would benefit more from a Chinese/Indian F1 star than Liberty.  Local races themselves are not going to bring a swell of new Chinese interest.  Beyond the business model I agree, outside the wheelhouse sure, but Liberty own F2 and it's the recipe they need to get what they want.

 


The Chinese GP may not even still be around on the timescales required. They would have to invest in a large number of drivers, and would still have no guarantee that any would make the grade to F1. I simply do not see Libertys role as finding the drivers for the F1 teams.

#146 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 20,179 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 21 April 2019 - 19:55

We've had 16 Chinese Grands Prix now. If the Grand Prix had an immediate effect on locals we should start seeing the first of the young karters from China who got interested at the time.



#147 kumo7

kumo7
  • Member

  • 2,018 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 22 April 2019 - 02:39

You have those young flex speedy Chinese guys who appears in the OCEANS11, or any olympic gymnastic sporting talent, that obviously says enough about physical capacities of Chinese person.

The last 25 years Chinese are officially recommended to become rich, the generation born under this regime can now have babies that are say 0 to 7 years old. 

I will say it will take another 8 years before we see true Chinese driver who are gifted with the level of talent as high as Lewis.

It will take more time, tho, before we see Chinese WDC...



#148 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 16,958 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 22 April 2019 - 17:38

We are still waiting for the first Japanese WDC or even GP winner.  And the Japanese have had an active and competitive race culture for many decades.  It takes more than helping a few karters to make a top line driver.  If the Japanese have not managed it, the Chinese have no chance.

 

Before anyone jumps on me about cultural stereotyping or whatever, it is not about that.  It is about young drivers from E. Asian countries having to make their way in a largely European dominated sport.  Even the Americans struggle and they don't have (much of) a language barrier.  A young Chinese driver would need to move to Europe away from friends and family, in an alien  society.  That is tough, even on Aussies or Brazilians.  What China needs is a healthy domestic racing culture in which the cream can rise to the top.  And even then, as the Japanese can attest, there is no guarantee.



#149 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 8,262 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 22 April 2019 - 18:31

We are still waiting for the first Japanese WDC or even GP winner.  And the Japanese have had an active and competitive race culture for many decades.  It takes more than helping a few karters to make a top line driver.  If the Japanese have not managed it, the Chinese have no chance.

 

Before anyone jumps on me about cultural stereotyping or whatever, it is not about that.  It is about young drivers from E. Asian countries having to make their way in a largely European dominated sport.  Even the Americans struggle and they don't have (much of) a language barrier.  A young Chinese driver would need to move to Europe away from friends and family, in an alien  society.  That is tough, even on Aussies or Brazilians.  What China needs is a healthy domestic racing culture in which the cream can rise to the top.  And even then, as the Japanese can attest, there is no guarantee.

 

I think the Beijing Olympics showed that if the Chinese decide they want to excel in a sporting activity, then they can quickly find and train people to the highest of standards. The fact is there is an enormous population to select from in China.



#150 404KF2

404KF2
  • Member

  • 7,669 posts
  • Joined: October 99

Posted 22 April 2019 - 18:40

Not a fan of street circuits in general either but I'm more interested in what potentially gets removed from the calendar to make way for this.

 

Probably someplace useless like Spa, Monza or Montreal.... :evil: