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Perez: "I was a Ferrari member, I was going to get a contract for 2014"


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#51 Laminar

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 20:24

Driving the 2014 Ferrari against Alonso? He dodged a major bullet. Career ending.



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#52 rocque

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 21:42

... aaaaaaannnnnd Perez never got bad luck, reliability problems, faulty strategies and DNF's. 

 

That's not subjective at all!

 

 

2015 since Hungary:

Hungary: both (Hulkenberg was higher, both cars had unreliable FW, but Maldonado took out Perez earlier)

Perez had bad luck in Japan, VSC at Spa (HUL DNS) but lucky earned four places in Russia.

Hulkenberg: double engine failure at Spa, DNF in Singapore, Russia and USA (FW), tested next year's parts in the race in Abu Dhabi.

 

2016:

Lucky circumstances helped Perez in: Russia, Spain, Monaco, a bit in Baku, almost in Austria, GB, Singapore, Malaysia, USA, almost in Brazil in terms of top3. 

Bad ones: lost one place at Spa (chaotic T1) and one point in Hungary because of bad strategy (he was tenth for a while because he could choose harder compound). Kvyat hit him in USA, but still in the points because of DNFs (HUL 0).

 

Hulkenberg's bad luck: China, Russia, Spain, Monaco, Baku, Austria, GB, Spa in terms of top3, Singapore, Malaysia, USA, Brazil.  Twelve (!!!) weekends of 21. 

 

You don't know the case, but I'm not objective... but yeah, with Ocon they were quite similar in terms of luck. 



#53 sopa

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 06:37

Hulkenberg's 2013 example is a good one here, and I think it would have happened to Perez as well. Raikkonen's star power would have been enough to overshadow Perez for the second Ferrari seat in 2014. So that's why drivers usually take any opportunity that is presented to them, because it may not happen again! That McLaren seat opened before the Ferrari one. Of course then suddenly getting a bad car and losing to a team-mate is a pretty bad combo, if you want to impress... But Perez was lucky to get out of McLaren. His career has been better since then, and in better cars too!



#54 theflyingwheel

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 15:24

2015 since Hungary:
Hungary: both (Hulkenberg was higher, both cars had unreliable FW, but Maldonado took out Perez earlier)
Perez had bad luck in Japan, VSC at Spa (HUL DNS) but lucky earned four places in Russia.
Hulkenberg: double engine failure at Spa, DNF in Singapore, Russia and USA (FW), tested next year's parts in the race in Abu Dhabi.

2016:
Lucky circumstances helped Perez in: Russia, Spain, Monaco, a bit in Baku, almost in Austria, GB, Singapore, Malaysia, USA, almost in Brazil in terms of top3.
Bad ones: lost one place at Spa (chaotic T1) and one point in Hungary because of bad strategy (he was tenth for a while because he could choose harder compound). Kvyat hit him in USA, but still in the points because of DNFs (HUL 0).

Hulkenberg's bad luck: China, Russia, Spain, Monaco, Baku, Austria, GB, Spa in terms of top3, Singapore, Malaysia, USA, Brazil. Twelve (!!!) weekends of 21.

You don't know the case, but I'm not objective... but yeah, with Ocon they were quite similar in terms of luck.

Yeah yeah yeah, the classic story from the Perez detractors, it’s always luck isn’t it ?

Maybe if Hulk would had had the “luck” to over take Massa and Perez in Bahrain he would had got the podium and you would instead be praising how talented he is.

Maybe if Hulk would had had the “luck” to stay longer in Monaco and taking the risk instead of playing safe like he always did he would had got the podium and you would be instead praising how talented he is.

Maybe if Hulk would had been in Russia at P5 before Kimi and Bottas crashed he would had got the podium and you would be instead praising how talented he is, Remember to have luck you have to be there period.

Maybe if Hulk had not choked and did his mistake in the Baku Q in 2016 where he spin the race he had the car to fight for the podium he would had got the podium and you would be instead praising how talented he is.

Maybe if Ocon hadn’t been that mistakenly ambitious in Baku and when on to crash into Perez in 2017 he would had got the podium and you would be instead praising how talented he is but Perez would had won the race and you would still call it luck because admiring he is a good driver is very difficult to say.

Maybe if Ocon hadn’t done the exact same mistake in Baku as in 2017 and went on to crash into Kimi he would had got the podium and you would be instead praising how talented he is.

When it’s other drivers is because they are good they are talented they have potential but when is the poor Mexican driver who BEATED them fair and square is just luck.

How hard is to admit that Perez is a good driver ? Does that diminish the other drivers ? Of course not both Hulk and Ocon are great drivers actually I find it more sad to think that they lost fair and square to a not so talented Mexican Paydriver than to a driver who has done 8 podiums in a midfield car.

Is Perez in the level of LH, SV, MV or FA ? By no means, but he is a good driver that I would rate in the level of Ricciardo, Hulk and Ocon yet for some people saying that Perez is a good driver is a very hard thing to say.

Edit: Nice Quali today in Baku, 5th place for the “paydriver” where his teammate in the same car did not get pass Q1 being again best of the rest, now let’s hear the all well know argument “it’s luck”.

Edited by theflyingwheel, 27 April 2019 - 15:27.


#55 coppilcus

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 20:55

Yeah yeah yeah, the classic story from the Perez detractors, it’s always luck isn’t it ?
Maybe if Hulk would had had the “luck” to over take Massa and Perez in Bahrain he would had got the podium and you would instead be praising how talented he is.
Maybe if Hulk would had had the “luck” to stay longer in Monaco and taking the risk instead of playing safe like he always did he would had got the podium and you would be instead praising how talented he is.
Maybe if Hulk would had been in Russia at P5 before Kimi and Bottas crashed he would had got the podium and you would be instead praising how talented he is, Remember to have luck you have to be there period.
Maybe if Hulk had not choked and did his mistake in the Baku Q in 2016 where he spin the race he had the car to fight for the podium he would had got the podium and you would be instead praising how talented he is.
Maybe if Ocon hadn’t been that mistakenly ambitious in Baku and when on to crash into Perez in 2017 he would had got the podium and you would be instead praising how talented he is but Perez would had won the race and you would still call it luck because admiring he is a good driver is very difficult to say.
Maybe if Ocon hadn’t done the exact same mistake in Baku as in 2017 and went on to crash into Kimi he would had got the podium and you would be instead praising how talented he is.
When it’s other drivers is because they are good they are talented they have potential but when is the poor Mexican driver who BEATED them fair and square is just luck.
How hard is to admit that Perez is a good driver ? Does that diminish the other drivers ? Of course not both Hulk and Ocon are great drivers actually I find it more sad to think that they lost fair and square to a not so talented Mexican Paydriver than to a driver who has done 8 podiums in a midfield car.
Is Perez in the level of LH, SV, MV or FA ? By no means, but he is a good driver that I would rate in the level of Ricciardo, Hulk and Ocon yet for some people saying that Perez is a good driver is a very hard thing to say.
Edit: Nice Quali today in Baku, 5th place for the “paydriver” where his teammate in the same car did not get pass Q1 being again best of the rest, now let’s hear the all well know argument “it’s luck”.


You’re insane!

Ocon and Hulkenberg are the two drivers with worst luck in F1!

;)

#56 coppilcus

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 20:57

2015 since Hungary:
Hungary: both (Hulkenberg was higher, both cars had unreliable FW, but Maldonado took out Perez earlier)
Perez had bad luck in Japan, VSC at Spa (HUL DNS) but lucky earned four places in Russia.
Hulkenberg: double engine failure at Spa, DNF in Singapore, Russia and USA (FW), tested next year's parts in the race in Abu Dhabi.
 
2016:
Lucky circumstances helped Perez in: Russia, Spain, Monaco, a bit in Baku, almost in Austria, GB, Singapore, Malaysia, USA, almost in Brazil in terms of top3. 
Bad ones: lost one place at Spa (chaotic T1) and one point in Hungary because of bad strategy (he was tenth for a while because he could choose harder compound). Kvyat hit him in USA, but still in the points because of DNFs (HUL 0).
 
Hulkenberg's bad luck: China, Russia, Spain, Monaco, Baku, Austria, GB, Spa in terms of top3, Singapore, Malaysia, USA, Brazil.  Twelve (!!!) weekends of 21. 
 
You don't know the case, but I'm not objective... but yeah, with Ocon they were quite similar in terms of luck.


Poor Hulkenberg and Ocon!

Terrible luck indeed... for four straight years.

#57 rocque

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 00:06

Poor Hulkenberg and Ocon!

Terrible luck indeed... for four straight years.

 

Maybe I typed not exactly enough. I compared earlier Hulk and Perez, so I thought it was obvious. 

"...but yeah, with Ocon they were quite similar in terms of luck." -  Perez and Ocon during their years in FI were quite similar in terms of luck, not Hulk and Ocon.

 

 

 

Maybe if Hulk would had...
 

He lost in Bahrain fair and square.

Vettel's strategists also didn't predict Massa's behaviour in Monaco. Was it really Hulk's fault? Sainz was ahead of Perez and TR's mechanics changed his tyres slower. Raikkonen received a gearbox penalty. Is it another example of Perez's unique skills?

Hulkenberg plenty of times topped the midfield and similar thing like in Russia never happened. NEVER. It's his fault! Checo's unique skills again!

Force India left him too late on his second run in Baku - full of yellow flags. Verstappen tried earlier with clear track and was easily in Q3. Gutierrez in T1 and too long stint on supersofts finished his race off on Sunday.

 

 

How hard is to admit that Perez is a good driver ? Does that diminish the other drivers ? Of course not both Hulk and Ocon are great drivers actually I find it more sad to think that they lost fair and square to a not so talented Mexican Paydriver than to a driver who has done 8 podiums in a midfield car.

Is Perez in the level of LH, SV, MV or FA ? By no means, but he is a good driver that I would rate in the level of Ricciardo, Hulk and Ocon yet for some people saying that Perez is a good driver is a very hard thing to say.
 

 

Did I claim Perez is a bad driver? 

Hulkenberg is not saint. When Hulkenberg sometimes makes a mistake/s or something goes wrong the race is destruction derby (impossible to score the one on another way in the midfield car) and Checo scores a podium. Result? People claim Perez is underrated and Hulkenberg is sh##. Based only on one race result. The rest is nothing. 

When the case is vice versa the race is predictable. Checo also sometimes makes mistake/s and then there are only small points on the table, so no one notice it. The Hulk is let's say 7th in that case. 

 

I analysed every race of Hulkenberg vs Perez rivalry and I'm full confident my claim. The difference in the points & podiums between them in 2015 & 2016 weren't reason of Checo's heroic performances every single weekend and Hulkenberg's clumsiness or being constantly slower, but people look at these two stats, exaggerate and claim that wrong explanation is the truth. 

If you don't understand P7 in Russia without DNFs is equal in terms of clear performance with P3 after four DNFs ahead, but it makes points difference what else can I say?  :|  It's no magic and it's possible to explain, but it will be waste of my time. 


Edited by rocque, 28 April 2019 - 00:08.


#58 Celloman

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 00:20

If you don't understand P7 in Russia without DNFs is equal in terms of clear performance with P3 after four DNFs ahead, but it makes points difference what else can I say?  :|  It's no magic and it's possible to explain, but it will be waste of my time. 

It may be equal in pure pace, but P3 brings a midfield team a heck of a lot more publicity, money and points, so it's worth much more than consistently finishing with a few points each race. Basically the only chance for a midfield team driver in F1 today to score a podium is to wait for something unusual to happen to top teams and then capitalize on that opportunity. Perez capitalized on those chances, Hulkenberg didn't. So while the pure performance might have been same, it's worth more to finish P3 for many different reasons.



#59 noikeee

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 00:22

I don't think it's a coincidence that Perez got all the podiums whilst Hulk and Ocon didn't.

... The problem is that the reason he gets those podiums isn't something that would translate to a top team. He's getting great breaks due to being in alternate strategies, knowing how to nurse tyres that might not be optimal, and having a weird gift for staying out of trouble when the races get wacky, despite making a not-dismissable number of mistakes other times.

None of this matters in a top team when what you need to be is blindingly quick, and consistently so every weekend. An outstanding performance when the strategy stars all line up once in a while, won't save him there, that's not what makes your season's points total in a Ferrari or a Mercedes. He's just not blindingly quick, he's merely alright on pace and reliant on those things to save his arse.

That being said he'd be a valuable #2 to a top team, if perhaps not quite the guy with the ideal profile for that. He'd win the odd race here and there, but not more than that - the last 2 or 3 tenths that a top driver has, eludes him.

Edited by noikeee, 28 April 2019 - 00:24.


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#60 jwill189

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 00:46

I don't think it's a coincidence that Perez got all the podiums whilst Hulk and Ocon didn't.

... The problem is that the reason he gets those podiums isn't something that would translate to a top team. He's getting great breaks due to being in alternate strategies.

 

This.  Besides Malaysia, Perez' 2012 season was summed up by a few good finishes as a result of alternate strategies.  Why was he on alternate strategies?  Because he qualified in the back of the pack.  Fortunately for Perez, the alternate strategies were effective with the tire degregation that season.  I knew Button would have had an easy time with him in 2013.



#61 BJHF1

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 01:25

Another cat out of the hat performance from Sergio. One word, imPEREZive!

#62 pitlanepalpatine

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 04:59

Perez is and never has been a tier 1 driver which is highlighted by...his highlights. Being around Hulkenberg helped him stable out a bit but he still doesn't know how to ***NOT*** lose his **** when things are not going his way see Singapore with Sirotkin. He kind of reminds me of Montoya, talented but not willing to understand that your best perfomance on the day might not always yield great results but it's still a fantastic perfomance. It's the one thing that I really admire about Alonso. The car can be on fire in 14th position but he'll make it to a pit in the hopes of having a chance at P10, I respect that dedication.



#63 coppilcus

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 09:32

I don't think it's a coincidence that Perez got all the podiums whilst Hulk and Ocon didn't.
... The problem is that the reason he gets those podiums isn't something that would translate to a top team. He's getting great breaks due to being in alternate strategies, knowing how to nurse tyres that might not be optimal, and having a weird gift for staying out of trouble when the races get wacky, despite making a not-dismissable number of mistakes other times.
None of this matters in a top team when what you need to be is blindingly quick, and consistently so every weekend. An outstanding performance when the strategy stars all line up once in a while, won't save him there, that's not what makes your season's points total in a Ferrari or a Mercedes. He's just not blindingly quick, he's merely alright on pace and reliant on those things to save his arse.
That being said he'd be a valuable #2 to a top team, if perhaps not quite the guy with the ideal profile for that. He'd win the odd race here and there, but not more than that - the last 2 or 3 tenths that a top driver has, eludes him.

How could we know?!

He hasn’t been in that position, so it’s impossible to know if that would hold true.

What we know is encapsulated within the realm in which Perez has drove: the midfield, and there he had shine and against pretty talented drivers such as Hulkenberg or Ocon, the “Next Sennas” or “championship material”, of that precise level of reference.

Sure, he isn’t lightning quick in qualifying, but that didn’t stop everyone judging Ocon’s performance in that regard against the Mexican as proof of his “potential and raw talent”, yet, when the same scenario presented itself with Perez and Button, everyone valued more the points tally from the Brit, than loosing the qualifying battle against a paydriver.

It’s extremely tough to judge such things when two drivers are toe to toe in a battle, it’s quite easier if the better driver is miles ahead of the other one. In the case of Perez, I think, people take into account things outside of the track into the mix, such as character...

Edited by coppilcus, 28 April 2019 - 09:39.


#64 coppilcus

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 09:36

Maybe I typed not exactly enough. I compared earlier Hulk and Perez, so I thought it was obvious.
"...but yeah, with Ocon they were quite similar in terms of luck." - Perez and Ocon during their years in FI were quite similar in terms of luck, not Hulk and Ocon.




He lost in Bahrain fair and square.
Vettel's strategists also didn't predict Massa's behaviour in Monaco. Was it really Hulk's fault? Sainz was ahead of Perez and TR's mechanics changed his tyres slower. Raikkonen received a gearbox penalty. Is it another example of Perez's unique skills?
Hulkenberg plenty of times topped the midfield and similar thing like in Russia never happened. NEVER. It's his fault! Checo's unique skills again!
Force India left him too late on his second run in Baku - full of yellow flags. Verstappen tried earlier with clear track and was easily in Q3. Gutierrez in T1 and too long stint on supersofts finished his race off on Sunday.




Did I claim Perez is a bad driver?
Hulkenberg is not saint. When Hulkenberg sometimes makes a mistake/s or something goes wrong the race is destruction derby (impossible to score the one on another way in the midfield car) and Checo scores a podium. Result? People claim Perez is underrated and Hulkenberg is sh##. Based only on one race result. The rest is nothing.
When the case is vice versa the race is predictable. Checo also sometimes makes mistake/s and then there are only small points on the table, so no one notice it. The Hulk is let's say 7th in that case.

I analysed every race of Hulkenberg vs Perez rivalry and I'm full confident my claim. The difference in the points & podiums between them in 2015 & 2016 weren't reason of Checo's heroic performances every single weekend and Hulkenberg's clumsiness or being constantly slower, but people look at these two stats, exaggerate and claim that wrong explanation is the truth.
If you don't understand P7 in Russia without DNFs is equal in terms of clear performance with P3 after four DNFs ahead, but it makes points difference what else can I say? :| It's no magic and it's possible to explain, but it will be waste of my time.

Hulkenberg and Ocon should retire from motorsport...

Such vicious terrible luck!

They’re a danger to themselves and the teams that hire them, they’re just incapable of getting results.

Edited by coppilcus, 28 April 2019 - 09:38.


#65 noikeee

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 10:00

How could we know?!

He hasn’t been in that position, so it’s impossible to know if that would hold true.

 

We don't know, but it's the logical extrapolation of the circumstances he gets his results - they don't really exist in top teams. Or if it happens once in a while, in a top team it doesn't matter overall because for them there's plenty of points in offer all season long and the consistent guy will outscore the guy that flukes a race win or 2 in the wacky races. In a midfield team the crucial thing to get a big points total is to nail those 1 or 2 opportunities per season where there's so many more points for them.
 

Sure, he isn’t lightning quick in qualifying, but that didn’t stop everyone judging Ocon’s performance in that regard against the Mexican as proof of his “potential and raw talent”, yet, when the same scenario presented itself with Perez and Button, everyone valued more the points tally from the Brit, than loosing the qualifying battle against a paydriver.

 

Wait a minute. He "beat" Jenson 10-9 in qualifying (wow such huge win), and we know qualifying is hardly Jenson's strong point. Then he was slower than him in the races, and also made plenty more mistakes. So although that was far from a top team that year, I think it provided a decent picture of what I think would happen if he got a Ferrari or Mercedes seat - an alright performance but not more than that.

By the way I like Ocon but don't think he's a future dominant world champ or anything. He's barely slightly quicker than Perez overall, and it's not like he was blindingly quick in the feeder series neither, just very consistent, remember his GP3 title year in which he got a ridiculous amount of 2nd places. Hulkenberg is a bit harder to judge because personally I believe he's getting more out of the Renaults than he did of the Force Indias (cross-comparison with Palmer/Magnussen/Perez tells me this, though it's a very rough science), but I don't think he's a world champ level driver neither. I believe both would just edge Perez in points most of the time in a top team though.



#66 coppilcus

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 11:27

We don't know, but it's the logical extrapolation of the circumstances he gets his results - they don't really exist in top teams. Or if it happens once in a while, in a top team it doesn't matter overall because for them there's plenty of points in offer all season long and the consistent guy will outscore the guy that flukes a race win or 2 in the wacky races. In a midfield team the crucial thing to get a big points total is to nail those 1 or 2 opportunities per season where there's so many more points for them.

It doesn’t make much sense though...

You’re judging his possible performance in a top team extrapolating the circumstances that does not exist at the top and exists only in midfield teams. They can’t be extrapolated, certainly not by logic. That’s quite an imaginative jump... The only thing that can be extrapolated is raw speed, not that his talents are inscribed within the realm of getting results in “odd circumstances and alternative strategies”.

In the midfield you have to compete with those scenarios in mind, and he can achieve those results more often than other drivers supposedly more talented. That’s an indication than he can deliver results even at difficult and unexpected circumstances and scenarios, more difficult and variable scenarios than at the front, where you need to worry only about two cars or less...

Wait a minute. He "beat" Jenson 10-9 in qualifying (wow such huge win), and we know qualifying is hardly Jenson's strong point. Then he was slower than him in the races, and also made plenty more mistakes. So although that was far from a top team that year, I think it provided a decent picture of what I think would happen if he got a Ferrari or Mercedes seat - an alright performance but not more than that.
By the way I like Ocon but don't think he's a future dominant world champ or anything. He's barely slightly quicker than Perez overall, and it's not like he was blindingly quick in the feeder series neither, just very consistent, remember his GP3 title year in which he got a ridiculous amount of 2nd places. Hulkenberg is a bit harder to judge because personally I believe he's getting more out of the Renaults than he did of the Force Indias (cross-comparison with Palmer/Magnussen/Perez tells me this, though it's a very rough science), but I don't think he's a world champ level driver neither. I believe both would just edge Perez in points most of the time in a top team though.

Wow... only a difference of a tenth of a second. Wow!

Well that’s exactly the point, everyone has different strengths and weaknesses.

Button is a world champion and lost to a paydriver in qualifying. I don’t know if the performance of the Brit was hampered when he was lunching McLaren into administration or something.

You can relativise your point view as much as you like on pretty much everything...

Edited by coppilcus, 28 April 2019 - 11:31.