122 replies to this topic

[F1matt]

With the recent disruption caused by Extinction Rebellion in London over the last few days, effectively brining the centre of London to a standstill while the authorities stand around doing nothing, and looking to cause more disruption tomorrow by blocking Heathrow Airport. How long will it be before they target a televised Motorsport event, either a GP, MotoGP, or IndyCar event? Will protesting at a televised event create more publicity for themselves and send manufacturers and sponsors running away from the sport? I wonder if circuits are prepared for protestors turning up and disrupting events, it would be interesting to see what the organisers could do,I imagine nothing and the event would be postponed.

 

At the moment the events in London and Europe look disorganised but in the US the Sunrise Movement looks more organised especially with the support of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and events may be targeted in the future to discourage manufactures and sponsors from getting involved, given how companies like to be seen as socially aware I don't think it would take much to distance themselves from motorsport. 

 

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. 

[pdac]

With the recent disruption caused by Extinction Rebellion in London over the last few days, effectively brining the centre of London to a standstill while the authorities stand around doing nothing, and looking to cause more disruption tomorrow by blocking Heathrow Airport. How long will it be before they target a televised Motorsport event, either a GP, MotoGP, or IndyCar event? Will protesting at a televised event create more publicity for themselves and send manufacturers and sponsors running away from the sport? I wonder if circuits are prepared for protestors turning up and disrupting events, it would be interesting to see what the organisers could do,I imagine nothing and the event would be postponed.

 

At the moment the events in London and Europe look disorganised but in the US the Sunrise Movement looks more organised especially with the support of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and events may be targeted in the future to discourage manufactures and sponsors from getting involved, given how companies like to be seen as socially aware I don't think it would take much to distance themselves from motorsport. 

 

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. 

 

Not to worry - it's all going electric soon anyway.

[PayasYouRace]

That's not going to stop them. The idiots are even targeting the environmentally friendly modes of transport like the Docklands Light Railway.

 

Races are potential targets, but they'd need to break into the circuit to cause major disruption.

 

The OP is wrong about nothing being done though. The police have made over 500 arrests.

[JHSingo]

With the recent disruption caused by Extinction Rebellion in London over the last few days, effectively brining the centre of London to a standstill while the authorities stand around doing nothing, and looking to cause more disruption tomorrow by blocking Heathrow Airport. How long will it be before they target a televised Motorsport event, either a GP, MotoGP, or IndyCar event? Will protesting at a televised event create more publicity for themselves and send manufacturers and sponsors running away from the sport? I wonder if circuits are prepared for protestors turning up and disrupting events, it would be interesting to see what the organisers could do,I imagine nothing and the event would be postponed.

 

I think they would be very daft to do so, given that the amount of pollution motorsport creates is very small - particularly when you compare it to transatlantic flights, for instance.

 

I remember once reading that a single transatlantic flight does more environmental damage than an entire season of F1 racing. How accurate that is, I'm not too sure, but it's something similar to what Jean Todt was quoted as saying a couple of years ago. https://www.roadandt...rmula-one-race/

 

I'm sure the big events have the necessary security to deal with such an issue, so I doubt it'll be of much concern to them.

[Spillage]

I live in London. The centre has not been brought to a standstill, nor anything like it. There are definitely environmental questions we need to answer, particularly the use of wind tunnels.

[FNG]

I live in London. The centre has not been brought to a standstill, nor anything like it. There are definitely environmental questions we need to answer, particularly the use of wind tunnels.

what's wrong with wind tunnels?

Edited by FNG, 18 April 2019 - 22:01.

[Vielleicht]

what's wrong with wind tunnels?

How much electricity they use

[CountDooku]

I think they would be very daft to do so, given that the amount of pollution motorsport creates is very small - particularly when you compare it to transatlantic flights, for instance.

I remember once reading that a single transatlantic flight does more environmental damage than an entire season of F1 racing. How accurate that is, I'm not too sure, but it's something similar to what Jean Todt was quoted as saying a couple of years ago. https://www.roadandt...rmula-one-race/

I'm sure the big events have the necessary security to deal with such an issue, so I doubt it'll be of much concern to them.

Good job major motorsports don’t fly anywhere...

[CountDooku]

How much electricity they use

Wind farm + wind tunnel = perpetual motion machine!

Now that I think of it, do wind tunnels have rotors and generators at their exit?

Edited by CountDooku, 18 April 2019 - 22:13.

[crooky369]

Good job major motorsports don’t fly anywhere...

To think the “Luddites” BTCC is probably far greener than Formula E because of this very reason.

[FNG]

Well I sure hope none of those protesters ever take a plane anywhere on vacation.

[Vielleicht]

To think the “Luddites” BTCC is probably far greener than Formula E because of this very reason.

I mean, yeah it probably is in physical impact. Does absolutely nothing for social impact though. Just think how brilliantly green the BTCC could be if it went electric too...

[Izzyeviel]

Sports events have always been a magnet for groups trying to raise their profile and cause disruption.

 

You may not like their methods but they want to ensure that our grandkids have a future on this planet.  We should be wishing them well!

[danmills]

F1 is not environmentally friendly but there are hundreds of worse and easier targets. McDonald's, for example. Amazon. Courier company warehouses... 

[Widefoot2]

Sports events have always been a magnet for groups trying to raise their profile and cause disruption.

 

You may not like their methods but they want to ensure that our grandkids have a future on this planet.  We should be wishing them well!

I guess I'll touch the third rail about environmental politics - the big issue is overpopulation, not gas use, automobiles, or racing.  If people really want to save the planet, they need to stop making so many people.

[jonpollak]

Yeah my wife was all bent outta shape today with all the delays etc. I’m not at home but it seems to me that protests for anything are ramping up like crazy... Someone need to apply ORDER..



Jp

[BalanceUT]

I think they would be very daft to do so, given that the amount of pollution motorsport creates is very small - particularly when you compare it to transatlantic flights, for instance.

 

I remember once reading that a single transatlantic flight does more environmental damage than an entire season of F1 racing. How accurate that is, I'm not too sure, but it's something similar to what Jean Todt was quoted as saying a couple of years ago. https://www.roadandt...rmula-one-race/

 

I'm sure the big events have the necessary security to deal with such an issue, so I doubt it'll be of much concern to them.

Since what you link to has the headline: "Single Overseas Flight Causes More Pollution Than Entire Formula One Race"... I think you've lost your facts dramatically. Anyway, as others have already noted, there are air flights dedicated to the cargo for F1... Fortunately, a lot of the F1 cargo travels by ship, which is very low pollution impact per ton-mile. Targeting motorsport would be higher profile, but not necessarily hitting where it hurts. Trying to shut down airports is hitting a high value target and gets notoriety. 

 

They'd do well to shut down the LA freeway system. 

[BalanceUT]

To think the “Luddites” BTCC is probably far greener than Formula E because of this very reason.

Never let the perfect be the enemy of improvement. 

[Stephane]

Well I sure hope none of those protesters ever take a plane anywhere on vacation.

 

Some of them travel only by train, yes. 

[Peat]

 If people really want to save the planet, they need to stop making so many people.

 

Our economic models don't allow for that, silly!

 

[Ben1445]

I mean, yeah it probably is in physical impact. Does absolutely nothing for social impact though. Just think how brilliantly green the BTCC could be if it went electric too...

On this note... absolutely the most difficult thing that needs to be done to fight climate change is to change the societal side of things. We have the means to stop this from happening but our societal set up and human nature has stopped us from doing anything about it. 

 

I can't say I agree with Extinction Rebellion's methods and I will will certainly not be entirely happy if I end up being inconvenienced by their actions. But I do see that they are coming from a position of desperation. Out of campaigning for years or decades to no avail. Out of frustration that their other more peaceful methods have not worked. Out of fear that we will fail to act when we need to most. 

 

Ultimately, we can focus on why they're doing it and what we can do about it without condoning their methods and in fact must do so. That's my take from what's been going on so far. 

[Stephane]

Our economic models don't allow for that, silly!

 

 

People will soon understand our planet doesn't allow our economic model.

 

Maybe

[Clatter]

Well I sure hope none of those protesters ever take a plane anywhere on vacation.

Or own a car.

[Ben1445]

Or own a car.

That kind of blanket expectation isn't helpful. When much of our modern infrastructure and how we live has been developed with personal car ownership in mind, in many cases it's just not practical to not own one. What matters more is that they choose the most efficient option for any journey based on their means and situation.

 

The other side of this is that, as important as individual choice is, unless everyone does the same it is absolutely pointless. Using individual choice as a method to discredit those pushing for change is exactly the kind of thing that delays the action we need and has done so for decades now. The changes that will most effectively mitigate climate change need to be made by governments as a national/global strategy. The important power therefore lies (terrifyingly) with the politicians, not so much with some person from a small town who buys renewable electricity for their home and bought their car based on its lower environmental impact.

Edited by Ben1445, 19 April 2019 - 07:59.

[Vitesse2]

Anyway, as others have already noted, there are air flights dedicated to the cargo for F1... Fortunately, a lot of the F1 cargo travels by ship, which is very low pollution impact per ton-mile. 

That's not what the leading environmental groups say. Cargo ships are significant polluters.

 

Over 90 percent of world trade is carried across the world’s oceans by some 90,000 marine vessels. Like all modes of transportation that use fossil fuels, ships produce carbon dioxide emissions that significantly contribute to global climate change and acidification. Besides carbon dioxide ships also release a handful of other pollutants that contribute to the problem.

The shipping industry is responsible for a significant proportion of the global climate change problem. More than three percent of global carbon dioxide emissions can be attributed to ocean-going ships. This is an amount comparable to major carbon-emitting countries -- and the industry continues to grow rapidly.

In fact, if global shipping were a country, it would be the sixth largest producer of greenhouse gas emissions. Only the United States, China, Russia, India and Japan emit more carbon dioxide than the world’s shipping fleet. Nevertheless, carbon dioxide emissions from ocean-going vessels are currently unregulated.

https://eu.oceana.or...ing-pollution-1

 

Looking at motor sport in isolation, it does seem an easy target - and indeed there are often comments to that effect BTL in (for example) The Guardian. F1, Formula E and some of the sports car series can point to their advanced technologies of course, but the lower formulae and tin-tops would have more to do.

 

Yet in terms of overall impact on the environment, is motor sport all that bad when compared to other sports? For example, the crowd at Silverstone for the entire GP weekend is about 150,000 - that's roughly the equivalent of the crowd at  two Manchester United home games. And there are nineteen more Premier League teams, playing every week; the average attendance at all PL matches is about 38,000. Plus all the lower leagues. Plus Rugby Union, Rugby League, cricket etc etc. That's a lot of people moving around the country every week.

 

Then there's horse racing - hundreds of diesel-powered horseboxes criss-crossing the country and (often) big crowds ... cycling, with all those chase cars ...

[absinthedude]

I know someone who is being force to walk two hours in order to get home after a 12 hour shift working in a pub due to these idiots. As others have said they're even targeting electrically powered public transport such as the DLR and attempting to bring down the tube.

 

They are mindless. They are campaigning for "zero carbon emissions" by 2025 which would entail ripping out all domestic and business gas boilers, heating systems and cooking systems and replacing them with electric, removing 90% of the internal combustion engines and replacing with electric, people mostly going vegetarian, shutting down all fossil fuel electricity generation and replacing with wind - which means a wind farm the size of WALES for goodness sake. 

 

Now I am all for raising awareness of the real problems we face in the coming decades regarding our lifestyles and usage of resources. Personally my conscience is clear, my wife owns 25 acres of forest in Missouri so pretty much whatever we do our carbon footprint is negative. But not everyone has that luxury and we do have questions to ask. However, blocking people from going about their daily lives for weeks on end, putting "blue light" emergency services in traffic jams risking lives.....will have only one effect. People will get pissed off. It will ultimately be counter-productive for the environmental cause.

 

The guy I know who's being so badly inconvenienced is actually a member of the Green party...and as far as I can tell he agrees these protesters are just fools.

[absinthedude]

Or own a car.

 

From what I can tell having listened to several of them on television yesterday, they aren't especially clued up on how even their own protest is negatively affecting the environment. They have travelled - many by car - to get to London and pollute parks with their brand new shiny tents and litter (which they aren't clearing up). What are the odds on half those tents being left for the authorities to clear away when they finally decide they've had enough?

 

I don't wish them physical harm but it really is time the police arrested those who are obstructing traffic and gluing themselves to buses and trains. They've been informed that camping out and protesting in the area around Marble Arch is tolerated but they can't leave it at that....they want to bring the entire capital to a standstill. Utterly mindless. 

[Widefoot2]

Our economic models don't allow for that, silly!

 

Heh - at one point I would have agreed with you.  But automation, in all it's forms, has upset the old model.  I can say no more without being targeted by the Illuminati... 

[Ben1445]

They are mindless. They are campaigning for "zero carbon emissions" by 2025 which would entail ripping out all domestic and business gas boilers, heating systems and cooking systems and replacing them with electric, removing 90% of the internal combustion engines and replacing with electric, people mostly going vegetarian, shutting down all fossil fuel electricity generation and replacing with wind - which means a wind farm the size of WALES for goodness sake.

Sounds genuinely fabulous to be honest.
 

Now I am all for raising awareness of the real problems we face in the coming decades regarding our lifestyles and usage of resources. Personally my conscience is clear, my wife owns 25 acres of forest in Missouri so pretty much whatever we do our carbon footprint is negative. But not everyone has that luxury and we do have questions to ask. However, blocking people from going about their daily lives for weeks on end, putting "blue light" emergency services in traffic jams risking lives.....will have only one effect. People will get pissed off. It will ultimately be counter-productive for the environmental cause.

No, most people certainly do not have that luxury. And I do agree that these protests causing anger may be counter productive, but condemning them without having alternatives only contributes to that problem. So I guess the crux of it is, if you fundamentally agree that things need to change, what do you suggest we do instead?

[SenorSjon]

I thought Rebellion racing quit motorsport?! Not everyone around here is from London and have half a clue what this is about.

[sabjit]

I thought Rebellion racing quit motorsport?! Not everyone around here is from London and have half a clue what this is about.

They went extinct.

[New Britain]

I guess I'll touch the third rail about environmental politics - the big issue is overpopulation, not gas use, automobiles, or racing.  If people really want to save the planet, they need to stop making so many people.

Precisely. If the global population were a third of what it is, no environmental problems - real or imagined - would exist. It is extraordinary that no environmentalist, ever, raises this point.

[AlexPrime]

They could try do this in Bahrain, Russia or Azerbaijan and see what happens to them.
Sorry, I'm not compassionate to far left ecoterrorists.    

Edited by AlexPrime, 19 April 2019 - 10:13.

[AlexPrime]

I thought Rebellion racing quit motorsport?! Not everyone around here is from London and have half a clue what this is about.

Aren't they competing in the WEC?

[dweller23]

So it might be just me, but I was under the impression that UK hosted only one F1 race per season nowadays. I have no idea what is it about, but I haven't seen any threads about "Yellow Vests" blocking French GP this year, so this must be yet another "F1 is British-only" thread?

[New Britain]

With the recent disruption caused by Extinction Rebellion in London over the last few days, effectively brining the centre of London to a standstill while the authorities stand around doing nothing, and looking to cause more disruption tomorrow by blocking Heathrow Airport. How long will it be before they target a televised Motorsport event, either a GP, MotoGP, or IndyCar event? Will protesting at a televised event create more publicity for themselves and send manufacturers and sponsors running away from the sport? I wonder if circuits are prepared for protestors turning up and disrupting events, it would be interesting to see what the organisers could do,I imagine nothing and the event would be postponed.

 

At the moment the events in London and Europe look disorganised but in the US the Sunrise Movement looks more organised especially with the support of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and events may be targeted in the future to discourage manufactures and sponsors from getting involved, given how companies like to be seen as socially aware I don't think it would take much to distance themselves from motorsport. 

 

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. 

A few hard core environmentalists might take the trouble to travel to a motor race and protest something, but for 99% of these fools blockading London is just a virtue-signalling camping trip. The weather's nice, they already live in or near London so it's easy for them to attend, and just think of all the images of themselves they can post on Facebook and Twitter. If this were late June, they would have gone to Glastonbury instead.

[pdac]

I guess I'll touch the third rail about environmental politics - the big issue is overpopulation, not gas use, automobiles, or racing.  If people really want to save the planet, they need to stop making so many people.

 

Overpopulation and lack of planning for an increasing population.

 

What I see, repeated and repeated, is either a new housing development or a new retail area being built with no consideration for the additional traffic load on the local system . As a result jams are rife and so is all of the pollution associated with those jams.

 

Really, planning should not be allowed unless the infrastructure is improved too. But, I guess, that would mean having to deal with the bigger issue of overpopulation or the fact that government officials would rather spend the money on themselves or their ideologies than on the people they serve.

[PayasYouRace]

So it might be just me, but I was under the impression that UK hosted only one F1 race per season nowadays. I have no idea what is it about, but I haven't seen any threads about "Yellow Vests" blocking French GP this year, so this must be yet another "F1 is British-only" thread?

 

What are you on about?

 

The thread is about whether the environmental protestors will affect motorsport. Nobody has even suggested that it is only to do with F1 in the UK.

[Muppetmad]

They could try do this in Bahrain, Russia or Azerbaijan and see what happens to them.
Sorry, I'm not compassionate to far left ecoterrorists.       

Just to be clear, are you seriously advocating the human rights violations of those countries? I don't see how this is relevant in any case; there are lots of political acts and statements that can be, and have been, made in Britain, the USA etc. which cannot be made elsewhere. I certainly don't agree with all of these statements. I have been (and, in fact, continue to be) inconvenienced by them myself, but that's the price you and I pay for living (I presume - you are welcome to correct me) in a democracy and having free speech rights. I could just as well say to you "if you don't like it, go to Bahrain, Russia or Azerbaijan".

 

I don't think any reasonable person is compassionate towards terrorists - but people who are causing some transport inconvenience in a peaceful manner are a million miles from being terrorists, and you scarcely help your cause by using such exaggerated and emotive rhetoric.

Edited by Muppetmad, 19 April 2019 - 10:45.

[Peat]

 

What I see, repeated and repeated, is either a new housing development or a new retail area being built with no consideration for the additional traffic load on the local system . As a result jams are rife and so is all of the pollution associated with those jams.

 

Yes and no. New and improved infrastructure encourages use - If that's a road, that just means more cars (mostly of single occupancy).

To my mind, it was a travesty that the train lines cut by Dr.Beeching were not mothballed and safeguarded instead, so that routes still existed for future redevelopment. But then, the future was the motor car and we had all the space in the world.  

[JHSingo]

Good job major motorsports don’t fly anywhere...

 

Which major sports don't? Wouldn't be much of a World Championship if they didn't...umm...travel?

[AlexPrime]

Just to be clear, are you seriously advocating the human rights violations of those countries? I don't see how this is relevant in any case; there are lots of political acts and statements people that can be, and have been, made in Britain, the USA etc. which cannot be made elsewhere. I certainly don't agree with all of these statements. I have been (and, in fact, continue to be) inconvenienced by them myself, but that's the price you and I pay for living (I presume - you are welcome to correct me) in a democracy and having free speech rights. I could just as well say to you "if you don't like it, go to Bahrain, Russia or Azerbaijan".

 

I don't think any reasonable person is compassionate towards terrorists - but people who are causing some transport inconvenience in a peaceful manner are a million miles from being terrorists, and you scarcely help your cause by using such exaggerated and emotive rhetoric.

Yes, but I am not a politician and do not want to win anybody for any cause. I am just a person who has witnessed the greens gaining more and more power and never been satisfied. They already did ruin F1 with the hybrid engines and will further ruin it when they force it to become FE+. I can see them destroying motorsports such as touring car or stock car racing. I can see them creating a de facto dictatorship. And I can definetly see these brats blocking hardworking people from reaching their jobs and homes for what they are.
So would I feel bad for them if they try their tricks in a country which does not pamper them, like the greenpeace activists arrested when they tried to take a Russian drilling platform? No, I won't. I don't care if this is politically correct or popular and I am sure that I'm not alone, although few people would admit it.
For the record I usually support efforts to protect the rainforests, the oceans and the wildlife. But sometimes enough is enough. 

Edited by AlexPrime, 19 April 2019 - 10:50.

[JHSingo]

I mean, yeah it probably is in physical impact. Does absolutely nothing for social impact though. Just think how brilliantly green the BTCC could be if it went electric too...

 

It'd probably reduce the grid number to a handful of cars due to the sheer expense, and no doubt piss off a lot of fans at the same time, but yeah sure, at least it'd be "green"!

[Izzyeviel]

Yes and no. New and improved infrastructure encourages use - If that's a road, that just means more cars (mostly of single occupancy).

To my mind, it was a travesty that the train lines cut by Dr.Beeching were not mothballed and safeguarded instead, so that routes still existed for future redevelopment. But then, the future was the motor car and we had all the space in the world.  

 The Beeching cuts were actually pretty sensible and people forget they were only one part of his plan. The idea was to replace underused rail lines with public transport & better transport infrastructure. The Tories stopped that when they realised they could have a tax cut instead. So we ended up with whole towns and communities cut off from the outside world and reliant on cars.

[Clatter]

Yes and no. New and improved infrastructure encourages use - If that's a road, that just means more cars (mostly of single occupancy).

To my mind, it was a travesty that the train lines cut by Dr.Beeching were not mothballed and safeguarded instead, so that routes still existed for future redevelopment. But then, the future was the motor car and we had all the space in the world.

Agree. It's a typical political ploy when decisions like this are made, they do all they can to make it impossible for future governments to reverse the decision.

[Clatter]

The Beeching cuts were actually pretty sensible and people forget they were only one part of his plan. The idea was to replace underused rail lines with public transport & better transport infrastructure. The Tories stopped that when they realised they could have a tax cut instead. So we ended up with whole towns and communities cut off from the outside world and reliant on cars.

If the railways were not being used, it was probably because the local communities already had alternative transport. Cutting the lines to save money probably made sense at the time, but ripping up the lines was unnecessary.

Edited by Clatter, 19 April 2019 - 11:06.

[sabjit]

They went extinct.

 

 

I was so proud of this comment and not a single like   

Time to hang up my ambitions as a comedian

[Vielleicht]

It'd probably reduce the grid number to a handful of cars due to the sheer expense, and no doubt piss off a lot of fans at the same time, but yeah sure, at least it'd be "green"!

Would the cost of adapting a handful of the smaller EVs that will come to market in the 2020s to a touring car really be any more expensive than doing so with an ICE version? BTCC is really a reflection of the smaller everyday road car market, so I have no doubt it will happen in due course, not for the next set of rules but very possibly the one after in the late 2020s.

 

They're already planning on the 2022 ruleset being hybrid (https://www.autospor...system-supplier)

[Vitesse2]

I thought Rebellion racing quit motorsport?! Not everyone around here is from London and have half a clue what this is about.

https://www.independ...e-a8872621.html

 

They are also planning events in at least 27 other countries, so you'll probably have more than 'half a clue' shortly.

 

Having said that, their demands are - as already pointed out - entirely unrealistic, at least in the short term.

[JHSingo]

Would the cost of adapting a handful of the smaller EVs that will come to market in the 2020s to a touring car really be any more expensive than doing so with an ICE version? BTCC is really a reflection of the smaller everyday road car market, so I have no doubt it will happen in due course, not for the next set of rules but very possibly the one after in the late 2020s.

 

They're already planning on the 2022 ruleset being hybrid (https://www.autospor...system-supplier)

 

The way they're doing it is more like a KERS system - a standardised system, to deliberately keep the costs down, than a full on move to electric vehicles.

 

There are reasons why BTCC hasn't gone all in and announced a switch to fully electric cars - such as the fact that most the grid is made up of small, independent teams who just don't have the budget to do that. For example, some teams have been running the same car for a few years now.

 

It's not to say it won't happen at some point, but definitely not in the short term, because there's some sizeable challenges that need to be overcome beforehand.