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Lets talk about Button


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#1 Laminar

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 07:56

He had a rough start to his career being inconsistent. For years he carried the 'average' tag who was never talked about among the elite. Even when he won the world title they said it was just down to the car.  When he moved to Mclaren in 2010 everyone predicted he would get destroyed by Lewis. I sure did. Yet he beat him. Sure he was slower but only by a few tenths on average and was clearly superior in some areas. When he joined Alonso they predicted the same yet he ran him just as close as Lewis even on raw pace. I changed my opinion of him over the years concluded he was top 5 of his generation. Thoughts?



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#2 Tsarwash

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 08:08

Won't somebody please think of the apostrophes. 



#3 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 08:09

I thought you might be wanting to talk about how he's left SMP racing and Vandoorne is taking his place.

 

I get that he wants a bit more time to himself and partner and upcoming family this year. He's been very much non-stop racing since before he started in F1. Even last year he became SuperGT champion. I was never one to call him average. His quality was there right from the start if anyone cared enough to look. Unfortunately his "sophomore struggles" in the Benetton did his reputation more damage that it deserved. Top quality driver.

 

I'd be interested to see what challenges he sets himself in the near future.



#4 Lights

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 08:27

When he moved to Mclaren in 2010 everyone predicted he would get destroyed by Lewis. I sure did. Yet he beat him.

It's unfair to say that Jenson 'beat' Lewis. He just didn't. It's annoying to read, similar to that Lewis 'beat' Fernando. A bit of context and nuance can do wonders sometimes.

#5 NotAPineapple

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 08:27

Button is/was famously extremely sensitive to car performance and balance. "I've been struggling to find a balance" became his catchphrase.

Not only did he need the best car on the grid to perform, it needed to be setup perfectly. So I'd hardly call him a great.

https://pbs.twimg.co...AQ-5T.jpg:large

Edited by NotAPineapple, 20 April 2019 - 08:28.


#6 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 08:30

And the Button Bashing commences. A sport that has been popular since late 1999.



#7 Lights

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 08:35

Not only did he need the best car on the grid to perform

Eh ok. What does 'perform' even mean? He certainly performed well in a wide range of cars with a wide range of teammates. So that can't be it. You mean win? Well that's debatable, but regardless there's only been a handful of drivers I can think of that were more impressive in that regard. So I have no idea where you're going with this.

#8 f1paul

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 09:11

Button is/was famously extremely sensitive to car performance and balance. "I've been struggling to find a balance" became his catchphrase.

Not only did he need the best car on the grid to perform, it needed to be setup perfectly. So I'd hardly call him a great.

https://pbs.twimg.co...AQ-5T.jpg:large

That Red Bull he drove in 2011 was good the class of the field wasn't it.



#9 Nonesuch

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 09:19

Thoughts?

 

It's a shame he's given up on Le Mans. It would have been nice to see him have another proper go after the troubles of last year.

 

As for F1, I think Button is a great example of how small the differences between the drivers are. Button was right up there - but so are (many) others who never got the chance to demonstrate it in a top car.

 

And it's not like Button has had an easy go of it. He's had some great and respected team-mates, all of which he got the better of numerous times. From guys like Barrichello and Sato, Hamilton and Villeneuve - to even Alonso!


Edited by Nonesuch, 20 April 2019 - 09:27.


#10 DeKnyff

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 09:22

Button is/was famously extremely sensitive to car performance and balance. "I've been struggling to find a balance" became his catchphrase.

Not only did he need the best car on the grid to perform, it needed to be setup perfectly. So I'd hardly call him a great.

https://pbs.twimg.co...AQ-5T.jpg:large

I don't think anyone considers him "a great", but a highly competent, above average, Formula 1 driver. Not among the top ten ever, but surely among the best in recent times.



#11 GenJackRipper

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 09:27

Love the guy. Seems like a genuine great fellow and a great racer.
Feels like he was at the wrong place at the wrong time with his career hitting of in the hybrid era.
5/10 years earlier he could have had several world championships.



#12 P123

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 09:31

It's unfair to say that Jenson 'beat' Lewis. He just didn't. It's annoying to read, similar to that Lewis 'beat' Fernando. A bit of context and nuance can do wonders sometimes.


Yeah... 3yr championships and all that.... but he's the only teammate to beat Hamilton cleanly over a season (IMO), and back in 2011, especially the latter half, he was the one to most often take the fight to Red Bull and Vettel, and that McLaren was not as strong. Similarly, back in 2009 the Brawn was not as dominant as often argued in here, and in fact I'd say only JB's driving won them Bahrain from Toyota. He beat Trulli, JV, Rubens, Sato, had the biggest advantage of any teammate over Lewis, and was fairly evenly matched with Alonso. You could kick him for sensitivity to particular car traits, or quali speed, but not much else. Not quite as good as Hamilton or Alonso, but that's hardly a crime. Oh, terrible facial fuzz though. :)

#13 Grundle

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 09:38

Like any driver, he needs the team behind him. But more so for him. If you look at when he has struggled it’s likely because he needs the team to help him solve his issues. Remember 2012 the team had a big meeting to understand and solve his setup. When he’s struggled I imagine he’s looking for help from the team because he doesn’t understand his car as well as he should. If everything if good with the car, he is a good qualifier and metronomic racer, good enough to beat anyone.
However, do I believe he could lead a team to 5 WCC on the bounce as a lead driver? Not a chance in hell.

#14 Beri

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 09:53

And the Button Bashing commences. A sport that has been popular since late 1999.


To be fair, he has a point. Plus, it does say something that we (at least I do) apparently not miss him in F1.

#15 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 09:56

I don’t particularly miss anyone out of F1. That’s not criteria for how good someone was.

#16 Dicun

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 10:18

Oh dear, not this again.

 

In before: an unworthy WDC, one of the worst in the history of the sport; a smug playboy; championship won only because he had it incredibly easy during the first few GPs driving a rocketship Brawn; Lewis destroyed him in terms of pace but was much-much more unfortunate with reliability; 2011 is asterisked because Lewis was depressed; even the old, slow Barrichello outperformed him in the second half of 2009; the contract saga of 2004-2005; 2011 Canada is the worst GP win ever because he crashed into Lewis and Fernando on purpose; he shouldn't even have been given a seat after 2001; he stayed several years too late and isn't missed from the grid at all.

 

Did I miss something? I'm sure I did, but hopefully, the usual Button bashers will come and add to the list soon.


Edited by Dicun, 20 April 2019 - 10:31.


#17 Marklar

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 10:22

Can you do this list for all drivers? :p

#18 sopa

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 10:23

Oh dear, not this again.

 

In before: an unworthy WDC, one of the worst in the history of the sport; a smug playboy; championship won only because he had it incredibly easy during the first few GPs driving a rocketship Brawn; Lewis destroyed him in terms of pace but was much-much unfortunate with reliability; 2011 is asterisked because Lewis was depressed; even the old, slow Barrichello outperformed him in the second half of 2009; the contract saga of 2004-2005; 2011 Canada is the worst GP win ever because he crashed into Lewis and Fernando on purpose; he shouldn't even have been given a seat after 2001, he stayed several years too late isn't missed from the grid at all.

 

Did I miss something? I'm sure I did, but hopefully, the usual Button bashers will come and add to the list soon.

 

You missed one of the most important things. Whitmarsh and Button had a lovefest, which eventually led to the downfall of McLaren in 2013.  :p



#19 Dicun

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 10:27

Can you do this list for all drivers? :p

 

If there is a demand, with pleasure :D

 

You missed one of the most important things. Whitmarsh and Button had a lovefest, which eventually led to the downfall of McLaren in 2013.  :p

 

Ah yes, that is a good one too :)



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#20 karl100589

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 10:31

Can you do this list for all drivers? :p

Good idea. I've been wanting to vent about Nicholas Kiesa for years ;)



#21 santori

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 10:49

As good as anyone other than Schumacher, Alonso and Hamilton (and then only a little behind).

 

Very underrated by some, although I also think it's fair to say that like other champions he was also lucky to be in the right places at the right times. Unlike, say, Heidfeld who I think of as perhaps similarly talented. That's modern F1, unfortunately -  if you're not in the right car at the right time you're more than ever before blocked from further advancement.



#22 danmills

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 11:36

I'm a bit confused how driver bash type threads are essentially banned but this (which is guaranteed to flame up) is essentially unintentional bait but I good faith is allowed?

#23 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 11:47

Because we always allow discussion in good faith.

#24 goldenboy

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 12:03

I think he is underrated by many. 3 WDC team mates that he did pretty well against.

I was never a huge fan for some reason, but if you had to pick one guy from the last 15 odd years to have a beer with it would have to be him!

#25 FrontWing

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 12:20

Button surprised me, he never had the one lap speed and flare of the top guys, but could win a race from under the radar. He worked hard and it really came together for him in his peak years at McLaren. I will always respect him going to McLaren and taking it to Lewis, there aren't many drivers that would have. Alonso had legged it a couple years previous (I jest Alonso fans).

I always got the feeling Lewis never rated him as his direct competition after their 2010 season together, and was focused more on Vettel in 2011. However, he learnt some respect for Button and was humbled after the 2011 season, and sorted himself out for 2012. Although 2012 didn't show it in the points gap, Lewis' current era started that year.

It's a bloody shame McLaren shat the bed after 2012, and we never got to see Button racing up front again. I didn't see that coming back in 2012.

Edited by FrontWing, 20 April 2019 - 12:42.


#26 NotAPineapple

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 13:05

And the Button Bashing commences. A sport that has been popular since late 1999.

 

 

Just trying to balance this kind of stuff really.

 

...he was top 5 of his generation...

 

So he was better than 3 of these drivers? Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, Schumacher, Raikonnen, Kubica, Hakkinen, Montoya



#27 Marklar

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 13:30

Just trying to balance this kind of stuff really.


So he was better than 3 of these drivers? Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, Schumacher, Raikonnen, Kubica, Hakkinen, Montoya

I guess it depends on where you draw the line. If you take 2009 to his career end he was certainly among the top 5 (with Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel, Rosberg, you forgot him :p). If you take all his career Schumacher bumps him one down. Mika's best time was ending just when Button came in (and I personally dont even rate his career higher tbh) and for all I love Montoya his F1 career was certainly worse than Buttons. Kubica had two good seasons and a load of inconsistent performances inbetween, thus he is not really in contention (I'd even put Ricciardo above in that time frame). Then it's the question whether you rate his or Kimi's (way higher highs, way lower lows) or Rosberg's (actually very similar) career higher. He is thereabouts either way.

Edited by Marklar, 20 April 2019 - 13:35.


#28 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 13:34

Just trying to balance this kind of stuff really.

 

 

So he was better than 3 of these drivers? Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, Schumacher, Raikonnen, Kubica, Hakkinen, Montoya

 

I think you could justify put him in the top 5 of his generation. Schumacher was obviously better but from the previous generation. Hard to compare to Hakkinen who was also of the previous generation.

 

Hamilton and Alonso were above him, but not by the chasm that some would suggest, and he showed that when he was teammates to them. Vettel is on par with them so we'll put him above too. Kubica was not given that much of a chance to show what he could do, but let's be generous and put him up there too.

 

That leave Montoya and Raikkonen. I'd struggle to pick one out of Jenson and Kimi as noticeably better, and Montoya was a very different animal.

 

So yeah, he's got a good claim to be in the top 5 of his generation, and if not, 6th or 7th at worst.



#29 maximilian

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 13:39

Like so many before him who won a single WDC (and more after him), Jenson happened to be in the perfect team at the perfect time, vs. for example Derek Warwick, who was probably on the same level, ability-wise, but never had the right ride come together.  Great passionate racer, no doubt tremendously skillful.  His drive from last to first in the rain remains as one of the most exciting F1 races (not many to choose from, admittedly) in memory.  Never forgave him for splitting up with Jessica, though!  :lol:



#30 Nonesuch

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 13:44

So he was better than 3 of these drivers? Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, Schumacher, Raikonnen, Kubica, Hakkinen, Montoya

 

That's the thing with these lists, these are all competent guys and the outcomes more often depend on circumstances than what they bring to the table.

 

It's often not so much that one is 'better' than the other, but that they got more out of their career - and even if they can sometimes influence that to a degree, more often they can't.



#31 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 13:46

  Never forgave him for splitting up with Jessica, though!  :lol:

 

 

I tend not to take that much notice of driver's personal lives, but does anyone remember in 2004 when he was with a minor popstar? ITV replaced their usual opening theme with her rather unsuccessful single when Jenson took his first pole at Imola.



#32 Dalin80

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 13:54

everyone predicted he would get destroyed by Lewis. I sure did. Yet he beat him.

 

 

Only due to reliability issues that also cost Hamilton the 2012 WDC.



#33 coppilcus

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 14:15

You missed one of the most important things. Whitmarsh and Button had a lovefest, which eventually led to the downfall of McLaren in 2013. :p


That one is truth though...

Edited by coppilcus, 21 April 2019 - 09:58.


#34 Laminar

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 14:20

 

 

 

So he was better than 3 of these drivers? Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, Schumacher, Raikonnen, Kubica, Hakkinen, Montoya

 

I rate him 5th. better than the likes kimi,, montoya. kubica, mika was not his era.



#35 Laminar

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 14:22

That's the thing with these lists, these are all competent guys and the outcomes more often depend on circumstances than what they bring to the table.

 

It's often not so much that one is 'better' than the other, but that they got more out of their career - and even if they can sometimes influence that to a degree, more often they can't.

 

not really, if you watch their entire careers to can take circumstances into account and get a reasonably accurate measure. the fact he ran Alonso and Hamilton close, alone shows his quality when most other team mates were destroyed.



#36 Spillage

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 14:25

He had an interesting career. He was hyped to death during the early phase of his career but I never thought he looked like a world champion - even when he was winning the world championship (iirc Barrichello beat him in qualifying in 2009). It was when he went to Mclaren that his quality shone through, and in 2011 he pretty much dominated Hamilton, which nobody else has managed in the same car.

#37 Nonesuch

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 14:29

not really, if you watch their entire careers to can take circumstances into account and get a reasonably accurate measure.

 

To some degree. You're still working with a limited number of seasons and even smaller number of direct comparisons, while plenty of drivers have performed differently with different cars, regulations, etc.

 

Alonso stands out a bit from the crowd, but even he had his stumbles.


Edited by Nonesuch, 20 April 2019 - 14:29.


#38 PlatenGlass

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 14:35


So he was better than 3 of these drivers? Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, Schumacher, Raikonnen, Kubica, Hakkinen, Montoya

People love Montoya but ultimately he didn't deliver. Kubica might have delivered but didn't (still might!)

As has been said Schumacher and Hakkinen probably don't count as the same generation.

Vettel and Raikkonen's reputations have dropped since their high points so you can argue this. Certainly Raikkonen with his one title shouldn't be considered above simply by default.

But while certain circumstances played into his hands in 2009, he was better than a lot of people thought he would be against Hamilton and Alonso.

#39 InSearchOfThe

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 15:05

Without the blown diffuser loophole Button is the English Mark Webber.

 

I wonder if he wasn't British would get as much love on AS as he STILL does?

 

I've said it before, Bruno Junqueira  should've gotten the 2000 Williams drive.



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#40 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 15:33

Without the blown diffuser loophole Button is the English Mark Webber.

 

I wonder if he wasn't British would get as much love on AS as he STILL does?

 

I've said it before, Bruno Junqueira  should've gotten the 2000 Williams drive.

 

There were 6 drivers with blown diffusers at the start of 2009, including another future world champion. That wasn't the sole reason for his success.

 

Bruno Junqueira is why I said Button Bashing has been a sport since late 1999. If Jenson's career had fizzled out after a season or two the argument for Bruno may carry some weight. But I just can't see Bruno having a 17 year F1 career with a world championship thrown in. He rarely had the upper hand over Bourdais in ChampCar.



#41 Traction

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 16:00

Out of the world champions since 1990 i'd place him above Hill and Villeneuve, and behind Rosberg.

#42 jjcale

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 16:18

Context matters for 2011 ..... LH's head was not in the right place ... its not like Button beat a properly focused LH - he beat a guy who was having woman, family, team and other issues ... in a way its the same as Rosberg benefiting for LH's reliability issues in 2016 ..... in normal circumstances neither of them would have a prayer... as LH proved by humiliating Button in 2012 (... I think even lapping him in one race when JB had no issues beyond failing to find a good set up) .... Rosberg ran away before he could be destroyed in 2017 - which we all knew was surely coming.  

 

/ :mad:ing fanboy mode



#43 InSearchOfThe

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 16:21

There were 6 drivers with blown diffusers at the start of 2009, including another future world champion. That wasn't the sole reason for his success.

 

Bruno Junqueira is why I said Button Bashing has been a sport since late 1999. If Jenson's career had fizzled out after a season or two the argument for Bruno may carry some weight. But I just can't see Bruno having a 17 year F1 career with a world championship thrown in. He rarely had the upper hand over Bourdais in ChampCar.

The Brawn diffuser was an advantage in at least the first half of the season. Not admitting this is another sign of pro- UK biased towards your precious Jens. No one ever mentions his shitty years at Benetton, Renault, or pre 2009 Honda. Why is that?

The Junqueira discussion is mute really because it's all speculation. Fair enough.

Call it bashing, or the hard truth, but if JB wasn't British he'd be an F1 footnote.



#44 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 16:33

The Brawn diffuser was an advantage in at least the first half of the season. Not admitting this is another sign of pro- UK biased towards your precious Jens. No one ever mentions his shitty years at Benetton, Renault, or pre 2009 Honda. Why is that?

The Junqueira discussion is mute really because it's all speculation. Fair enough.

Call it bashing, or the hard truth, but if JB wasn't British he'd be an F1 footnote.

 

Firstly it's moot not mute.

 

Jenson's struggles at Benetton in 2001 are well known. If that had set the tone for his career then we'd say he was a promising rookie in the Williams who then got found out. But that wasn't the case. By 2002 when the team was now Renault he was back to being very good, and didn't disgrace himself at all. When he went to BAR he immediately impressed against Villeneuve, before establishing himself as the team leader. He had many great drives during those years, and of course got that first win. He was only outscored in 2008, when points were hard to come by.

 

There's no pro-UK bias there. Just an appreciation of a serially underrated driver. His quality drives speak for themselves, not his nationality.



#45 gillesfan76

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 16:35

Top driver, cleanly beat Lewis in 2011. Sure Lewis self-destructed but still, Jenson took the fight directly to Red Bull and Seb. He also genuinely beat Lewis several times over the three years as team mates, even though he wasn't even close in raw speed. When he set the car up exactly how he liked it, he was as quick as anyone.

 

I don't go gaga over his "bravery" at deciding to join McLaren in 2010 as Lewis' team mate. In 2009, he had what many people thought was easily the fastest car and a second rate team mate so unfortunately, and probably unfairly, many thought his 2009 WDC wasn't a very meaningful one. So Jenson had two options, knowing his reputation even after winning a championship wasn't as high as it could be. Either stay at Brawn/Mercedes and go up against Nico Rosberg, knowing that if he lost against Nico his reputation would suffer massively. Or go to McLaren sat alongside Lewis where pretty much everyone already expected him to get destroyed, so really there was only upside to that. It turned out well for him.



#46 jesee

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 17:01

He had an interesting career. He was hyped to death during the early phase of his career but I never thought he looked like a world champion - even when he was winning the world championship (iirc Barrichello beat him in qualifying in 2009). It was when he went to Mclaren that his quality shone through, and in 2011 he pretty much dominated Hamilton, which nobody else has managed in the same car.

This is not true and I don’t like hyperbole. Lets us look at facts:

 

 

Event           qualifying                  Race                 qualifying gap       circumstance              

                    Lewis /Jenson        Lewis/Jenson       

 

Aust            2/4                          2/6                    5tenths to Lewis  

 

Malaysia     2/4                        8/2                     3tenths to lewis          penalty for lewis

 

China          3/2                       1/4                       0.042 to Button

 

Turkey       3/6                       4/6                       4tenths to lewis

 

Spain          3/5                         2/3                      0.038 to Lewis

 

Monaco    2/9                          6/3 

 

Qualifying affected Lewis and other drivers who

Were doing their laps before the red flag due to Perez crash. Only Vettel and Button had been lucky to set their time. Race Hamilton hit by Algueserri damaging his rear wing

 

Canada     5/7                      Ret/1            3tenths to Lewis.

 

Hamilton and Lewis collided in rain-affected race. No penalties given. Button drove very well but was also lucky with safety car. Lewis retired.

 

Valencia   3/6                     4/6           2tenths to Lewis

 

Silverstone 10/4             4/Ret         4tenths to Jenson.

 

Rain affected qualifying.  Lewis qualified tenth when he set a lap time on worn tires before the rain arrived, denying him the opportunity to better his lap time. In race Jenson pitted for new tires but retired from the race after the front right wheel nut was not attached.

 

Germany   2/7           1/Ret            1.1 secs to lewis

    

Hungary  2/3              4/1               1tenth to lewis

 

 Rain affected race. Jenson drove well and made right calls.

 

Spa      2/13                 Ret/1     

 

Jenson did not make it to q3 in wet qualifying.  Lucky with the safety car. Hamilton hit by Kobayashi      

 

 

Monza   2/3                4/2    Hamilton forced onto grass by Schumacher with Button overtaking him then.   

 

Singapore   4/3       5/2         0.005 to Jenson

 

Qualifying had a puncture during qualifying Hamilton given a drive through penalty for colliding with Massa

 

Japan       3/2            5/1    2tenths to Button . Lewis hit by Massa in the race and had to pit

 

 

Korea  1/3                2/4    7tenths to Lewis

 

India    3/5                7/2      5tenths to lewis.

 

Massa hit Lewis who was forced to pit for a new wing. Massa got a drive through penalty for causing a collision.

 

Abu Dhabi     2/3      1/3         0.009 to Lewis

 

 

Brazil           4/3         Ret/ 3    2tenths to Button.

 

This is the only race where Jeson beat Hamilton squarely in qualifying without incidents. Race however Lewis had a gearbox failure and retired.

 

Summary

 

Button had two retirements versus Hamilton three.

Button won three races and Hamilton three.

 

Looking at these results there is no way you would say that Button dominated Hamilton. I would actually put it the other way round by qualifying but points are not made in Saturday. However the retirements and incidents at races affected Lewis more and final tally does not show this. It is strange when people also add the points for three seasons and say Jenson beat him over three season. A championship is one season not three years.


Edited by jesee, 20 April 2019 - 17:07.


#47 InSearchOfThe

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 17:05

Firstly it's moot not mute.

 

Jenson's struggles at Benetton in 2001 are well known. If that had set the tone for his career then we'd say he was a promising rookie in the Williams who then got found out. But that wasn't the case. By 2002 when the team was now Renault he was back to being very good, and didn't disgrace himself at all. When he went to BAR he immediately impressed against Villeneuve, before establishing himself as the team leader. He had many great drives during those years, and of course got that first win. He was only outscored in 2008, when points were hard to come by.

 

There's no pro-UK bias there. Just an appreciation of a serially underrated driver. His quality drives speak for themselves, not his nationality.

 

 

Spin it any way you want PAYR, the OP wanted my thoughts, and I say he's overrated because of his nationality. The double diffuser flattered his historical talent.

 

Thanks for grammar correction. That was swell.   :clap:


Edited by InSearchOfThe, 20 April 2019 - 17:08.


#48 Nonesuch

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 17:58

Context matters for 2011 ..... LH's head was not in the right place ...

 

Context always matters, to all drivers. They're all trying to the best they can under the circumstances. Sometimes it stands out more, in positive and negative ways. Sometimes we don't even know what they're dealing with.

 

That said, given Button's string of girlfriends and fiancées I'm not sure "woman issues" is the best excuse in the case of Hamilton v. Button. :p



#49 Sterzo

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 19:08

I tend not to take that much notice of driver's personal lives, but does anyone remember in 2004 when he was with a minor popstar? ITV replaced their usual opening theme with her rather unsuccessful single when Jenson took his first pole at Imola.

Louise Griffiths, who took part in "Fame Academy" on TV. Button was in the on-stage audience, labelled (like the other family members and friends) with a rosette saying who he was. His read: "Louise's Boyfriend."

 

Next time he turned up at a circuit, the BAR mechanics had peeled his name off the car and replaced it with "Louise's Boyfriend."

 

I apologise for knowing this.



#50 Marklar

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 19:10

Context matters for 2011 ..... LH's head was not in the right place ... its not like Button beat a properly focused LH - he beat a guy who was having woman, family, team and other issues ... in a way its the same as Rosberg benefiting for LH's reliability issues in 2016 ..... in normal circumstances neither of them would have a prayer... as LH proved by humiliating Button in 2012 (... I think even lapping him in one race when JB had no issues beyond failing to find a good set up) .... Rosberg ran away before he could be destroyed in 2017 - which we all knew was surely coming.  

 

/ :mad:ing fanboy mode

While I agree that Hamilton was nowhere near his best in 2011 I dont think that you can blame this sort of stuff on this. Hamilton had more severe issues with his father - or at least it appeared so - in 2010 than in 2011, he had love ones dying in 2012 even. He broke up from his girlfriend on other seasons as well (forgive me that I dunno when exactly) without showing it on track. And his relationship to McLaren was probably even worse in 2012 than in 2011 (of course you can argue here that he changed after 2011, but still). Only thing I'm not sure about are the alleged health issues (or not alleged, since he actually confirmed them a few years later). But then again who knows what issues any other driver actually has as well?

To me he was doing what Verstappen tried last year. He wanted to win the title desperately (probably was a bit fearing that Vettel could surpass him as the next big thing by having more titles), but he simply didnt had the car to do it, thus he overdrove his car massively, hence why he had in this season many mistakes/crashes, but also some of his best races of his career. If he had a weak team mate he would have somewhat salvaged that season by still beating him, but Button really drove well within his capabilities to maximize his results. And so it probably spiralled further, possibly also influenced by those factors you mentioned.

My point is: I dont think that these were the cause of his performance, but rather something that ended up making things even worse for him. Probably it wouldnt really impact him nowadays I would guess, though.

I doubt that anyone actually thinks that Button (or Rosberg) would be able to beat him in a "normal" season (however you define it), but even beating him in a less normal season is a great effort.


Edited by Marklar, 20 April 2019 - 19:13.