Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 2 votes

Lets talk about Button


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
123 replies to this topic

#51 Dicun

Dicun
  • Member

  • 571 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 20 April 2019 - 19:14

The Brawn diffuser was an advantage in at least the first half of the season. Not admitting this is another sign of pro- UK biased towards your precious Jens. No one ever mentions his shitty years at Benetton, Renault, or pre 2009 Honda. Why is that?

The Junqueira discussion is mute really because it's all speculation. Fair enough.

Call it bashing, or the hard truth, but if JB wasn't British he'd be an F1 footnote.

 

A WDC an F1 footnote? Interesting. The diffuser thing has been discussed plenty of times - didn't seem to help Trulli or Rosberg to mount a WDC challenge. And the Brawns were already beatable early on in cold/damp conditions, see China or Malaysia where admittedly JB only won because of the red flag. Button also had to deliver an immaculate race to win at Bahrain or Turkey too.

 

I'm not from the UK so no pro-UK bias from my side towards "my precious Jens". I see that you hate the guy, but can't really understand why as Button never was a controversial character or driver. But hey, each to his own I guess.



Advertisement

#52 Dicun

Dicun
  • Member

  • 571 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 20 April 2019 - 19:16

I doubt that anyone actually thinks that Button (or Rosberg) would be able to beat him in a "normal" season (however you define it), but even beating him in a less normal season is a great effort.

 

I beg to differ ;)



#53 CL16

CL16
  • Member

  • 1,214 posts
  • Joined: June 18

Posted 20 April 2019 - 19:24

Beat Lewis in the only ever 3 season aggregate championship.

#54 Atreiu

Atreiu
  • Member

  • 15,138 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 20 April 2019 - 19:25

He was good and deserved the title. But his name shouldn't come up in all time great conversations. Lewis's torrid luck and comparative unreliability did more good for Button's reputation than JB's driving ever did.

 

Mansell, Hill, Villeneuve, Button... every now and then a wonderful set of circumstances allows a guy sneaks out with a title despite racing against all time greats.


Edited by Atreiu, 20 April 2019 - 19:27.


#55 Dicun

Dicun
  • Member

  • 571 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 20 April 2019 - 19:32

He was good and deserved the title. But his name shouldn't come up in all time great conversations. Lewis's torrid luck and comparative unreliability did more good for Button's reputation than JB's driving ever did.

 

Mansell, Hill, Villeneuve, Button... every now and then a wonderful set of circumstances allows a guy sneaks out with a title despite racing against all time greats.

 

Mansell was unquestionably an all-time great who held the F1 WDC and CART titles simultaneously and if not for rotten luck, he could have been a four-time F1 WDC.

 

And this is coming from a hardcore Prost fan.



#56 SonGoku

SonGoku
  • Member

  • 4,021 posts
  • Joined: July 17

Posted 20 April 2019 - 20:19

Nice guy, but not one of the greats.



#57 Button4life

Button4life
  • Member

  • 3,075 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 20 April 2019 - 22:25

I never expected to see a Button thread in 2019. I think he definitely was in the top 5 of his generation. Only Alonso and Hamilton were clearly better and I rate him higher than Kimi and Rosberg. In my opinion Button had a pretty good career. I think 2010-2013 were his worst seasons after the Benetton days. Not only was he slow in qualy, his race pace was very inconsistent. Usually those seasons are seen as his prime years but I think his 1st prime was between 2003 and 2006. Not only was he quick and consistent in the race, he was also very fast in qualy. He was the only one of the sub-midfield that was able to challange the front runners regularly. His 2nd prime was his last few seasons in F1. So between 2014 and 2016. Between the 2nd half of 2014 and 1st half of 2016 to be specific. Especially 2014 impressed me. He had a slow start but after Austria he really was on it. He consistantly put the car in the top 7 in qualy and consistantly finished in the top 6 even though McLaren had a slower car than Mercedes, Williams, Ferrari and Red Bull. Races like Japan, Russia and Brasil stood out that season. He was matching the Williams even though he had absolute no right to do that. He outscored Alosno in 2015 but I think he was just a little bit slower in out right pace even though he beat Alonso in the qualy battle. That was also the season where Button outqualified Alonso by 5 tenths in Spa. I don't think any driver can say he outqualified Alonso fair and square by 5 tenths. Overall that season Button was a bit more consistent(feels weird saying anyone is more consistent than Alonso) and a bit luckier. The opposite was the case in 2016. I always thought Button was a bit quicker that season but inconsistent and unlucky. He was especially impressive in the race where he had a few masterclasses, for instance Baku and Monza. In Baku he overtook Alonso and in Monza he gained more than 20 seconds over Alonso. It's questionable if Alonso was fully motivated at McLaren, but even beating a 80% Alonso is damm impressive. He had a few races were he dominated Hamilton in the race as well. This is the difference between him and Nico(Kimi). I can't imagine those drivers dominating Hamilton and Alonso multiple times. .

Edited by Button4life, 20 April 2019 - 22:29.


#58 RPM40

RPM40
  • Member

  • 11,224 posts
  • Joined: October 15

Posted 20 April 2019 - 22:48

He was good, but a couple of tenths off the fastest drivers. I don't think he'd be very competitive vs current Hamilton who doesn't make many errors.



#59 RPM40

RPM40
  • Member

  • 11,224 posts
  • Joined: October 15

Posted 20 April 2019 - 22:48

I never expected to see a Button thread in 2019. I think he definitely was in the top 5 of his generation. Only Alonso and Hamilton were clearly better and I rate him higher than Kimi and Rosberg. In my opinion Button had a pretty good career. I think 2010-2013 were his worst seasons after the Benetton days.


2011 was in my view his swan song, that was a very strong season by him in a car that was generally off the pace.

Advertisement

#60 Button4life

Button4life
  • Member

  • 3,075 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 20 April 2019 - 22:55

This is not true and I don’t like hyperbole. Lets us look at facts:

 

 

Event           qualifying                  Race                 qualifying gap       circumstance              

                    Lewis /Jenson        Lewis/Jenson       

 

Aust            2/4                          2/6                    5tenths to Lewis  

 

Malaysia     2/4                        8/2                     3tenths to lewis          penalty for lewis

 

China          3/2                       1/4                       0.042 to Button

 

Turkey       3/6                       4/6                       4tenths to lewis

 

Spain          3/5                         2/3                      0.038 to Lewis

 

Monaco    2/9                          6/3 

 

Qualifying affected Lewis and other drivers who

Were doing their laps before the red flag due to Perez crash. Only Vettel and Button had been lucky to set their time. Race Hamilton hit by Algueserri damaging his rear wing

 

Canada     5/7                      Ret/1            3tenths to Lewis.

 

Hamilton and Lewis collided in rain-affected race. No penalties given. Button drove very well but was also lucky with safety car. Lewis retired.

 

Valencia   3/6                     4/6           2tenths to Lewis

 

Silverstone 10/4             4/Ret         4tenths to Jenson.

 

Rain affected qualifying.  Lewis qualified tenth when he set a lap time on worn tires before the rain arrived, denying him the opportunity to better his lap time. In race Jenson pitted for new tires but retired from the race after the front right wheel nut was not attached.

 

Germany   2/7           1/Ret            1.1 secs to lewis

    

Hungary  2/3              4/1               1tenth to lewis

 

 Rain affected race. Jenson drove well and made right calls.

 

Spa      2/13                 Ret/1     

 

Jenson did not make it to q3 in wet qualifying.  Lucky with the safety car. Hamilton hit by Kobayashi      

 

 

Monza   2/3                4/2    Hamilton forced onto grass by Schumacher with Button overtaking him then.   

 

Singapore   4/3       5/2         0.005 to Jenson

 

Qualifying had a puncture during qualifying Hamilton given a drive through penalty for colliding with Massa

 

Japan       3/2            5/1    2tenths to Button . Lewis hit by Massa in the race and had to pit

 

 

Korea  1/3                2/4    7tenths to Lewis

 

India    3/5                7/2      5tenths to lewis.

 

Massa hit Lewis who was forced to pit for a new wing. Massa got a drive through penalty for causing a collision.

 

Abu Dhabi     2/3      1/3         0.009 to Lewis

 

 

Brazil           4/3         Ret/ 3    2tenths to Button.

 

This is the only race where Jeson beat Hamilton squarely in qualifying without incidents. Race however Lewis had a gearbox failure and retired.

 

Summary

 

Button had two retirements versus Hamilton three.

Button won three races and Hamilton three.

 

Looking at these results there is no way you would say that Button dominated Hamilton. I would actually put it the other way round by qualifying but points are not made in Saturday. However the retirements and incidents at races affected Lewis more and final tally does not show this. It is strange when people also add the points for three seasons and say Jenson beat him over three season. A championship is one season not three years.

 


After the retirement of Button in Germany. He finished 8 of the 9 races on the podium. Korea was his worst result where he finished 4th. Meanwhile Hamilton only finished twice on the podium during that period. I'll leave it here.

#61 HeadFirst

HeadFirst
  • Member

  • 3,606 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 21 April 2019 - 03:31

He was good, but a couple of tenths off the fastest drivers. I don't think he'd be very competitive vs current Hamilton who doesn't make many errors.

 

I don't think there are many (if any) that would be competitive against the current Lewis. From Jenson's generation, I'd say Alonso, and maybe Kimi, or Vettel on their very best days. Jenson may not have been the fastest of his generation, but I think as a racer he was under-rated.



#62 RPM40

RPM40
  • Member

  • 11,224 posts
  • Joined: October 15

Posted 21 April 2019 - 04:32

I don't think there are many (if any) that would be competitive against the current Lewis. From Jenson's generation, I'd say Alonso, and maybe Kimi, or Vettel on their very best days. Jenson may not have been the fastest of his generation, but I think as a racer he was under-rated.

I think Button would have easily done away with Kimi. Button was much more competitive vs Alonso and Hamilton than Raikkonen was. 

 

I'd put him behind Hamilton/Alonso absolutely and probably slightly behind Vettel. He might out race Vettel over a season though.



#63 HP

HP
  • Member

  • 18,332 posts
  • Joined: October 99

Posted 21 April 2019 - 05:10

As a driver he matured well, also a nice guy.. Still his WDC is the only one that left me without any emotion. Neither good nor bad emotion. Not that it it matters in terms of his career. From my perspective, even for drivers that I am not fond off, but drive extremely well, I have respect.

 

So for me he is the epitome of being successful, while indifferent. That most likely is because on the grid I can find in all aspects of his career other drivers that are better than him. Nothing particular stands out.

 

Despite of that he won a championship, measured up well with more illustrious team mates. He made most out of his abilities. His WDC was a matter of right team at the right time though, otherwise his F1 career would be just "another almost".



#64 PlayboyRacer

PlayboyRacer
  • Member

  • 2,870 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 21 April 2019 - 05:36

Out of the world champions since 1990 i'd place him above Hill and Villeneuve, and behind Rosberg.

Line up the CV's... Button isn't in the same class as Villeneuve comparing their whole careers and context.

The 2003 'beating' JB 'handed' to JV is one of the most overhyped teammate comparisons in modern F1 history. It wasn't the almighty flogging people will have you believe.

But then again that's just the sort of hate JV gets.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 21 April 2019 - 05:37.


#65 messy

messy
  • Member

  • 3,986 posts
  • Joined: October 15

Posted 21 April 2019 - 06:55

People always say in any Button discussion "good but not one of the greats" - yet I don't think I've ever really seen anybody claim him to be one of the greats. I don't think he himself would claim to be one of the greats. But a little bit beneath your top, top tier of Hamiltons, Sennas and Schumachers you've got the drivers who maybe won one WDC, maybe none, 10-20 race wins, who despite not being "all-time greats" were enduring key protagonists in their era and I'd put Button right near the head of that list personally. I'm talking Reutemann, Berger, Jones, Raikkonen, Fittipaldi, both Rosbergs. Who cares that they're not "all time greats". Very few are.

Jenson came in as a kid, basically, with this unbelievable weight of expectation. I still remember his shootout with Junqueira and the publicity it got. He did great in 2000 really all things considered, then got caught up in the "young kid in F1 before he should be" trap the year later instead. But from there, he

Redeemed himself by beating Trulli in 2002
Became BAR team leader, saw off Villeneuve and by 2004 was third in the WDC with them
Played his unexpected title opportunity to absolute perfection
Had the guts to take on Hamilton, and didn't actually lose
Saw off young guns like Perez and Magnussen
Took on Alonso and was not far off his overall level at all at 35/36 years old.

I'm sure he's rightly proud of that. Nice bloke, good ambassador for the sport and I wish him all the best with his family and new baby. Always had a lot of time for Jenson personally.

#66 EndlessMotion

EndlessMotion
  • Member

  • 2,039 posts
  • Joined: December 13

Posted 21 April 2019 - 06:56

The season he beat Lewis I always found a bit of a weird one. Not because I don't rate Button, far from it. But because whilst Hamilton clearly was all over the shop mentally and having probably his worst season ever, I felt Jenson was probably having his best season ever at the same time. It was just a strange season all round at McLaren with the moose MP4-26, a depressed looking Hamilton having some bizarre accidents and Button in comparison driving more like the clear team leader.

 

I've always liked the guy anyway, with maturity he became a much more complete driver later in his career. Stuck it out with Honda during some rough times and being there for that magical Brawn GP year was fully deserved, as was his championship. Even when up against better teammates on paper, he would often push them closer than many expected. Always had that nack for making the right call in changing conditions when a drivers intuition could be more valuable than the teams data.

 

Not the perfect driver but I think he made up for lacking in pure speed in other areas, knew how to conduct himself with all the politics going on too. Definitely one of the best in that tier just below the absolute best drivers of his generation.

 

Still miss his personality on the grid and around the paddock. In a sport where some drivers are a little too precious to talk on the grid before a race, Jenson was mostly always up for a chat with Martin and was one of the few to break that PR robot barrier between the drivers and the public. Similar to Mark Webber in that respect. Hopefully we'll see him more in the future on Sky's coverage as he's a bit of a natural.



#67 barzini

barzini
  • Member

  • 1,933 posts
  • Joined: July 16

Posted 21 April 2019 - 07:58

I think Button would have easily done away with Kimi. Button was much more competitive vs Alonso and Hamilton than Raikkonen was.

I'd put him behind Hamilton/Alonso absolutely and probably slightly behind Vettel. He might out race Vettel over a season though.


Depends when this battle would've been fought. Either way I don't think Button would have won easily. No way.

#68 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 12,208 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 21 April 2019 - 08:29

It seems to be largely forgotten that Trulli actually matched Button in 2002, but had lesser reliability. When it comes to, say, 2012, people talk about reliability a lot, but older seasons seem to have gone into the history bin already. Nevertheless it was a good season by Button and a good comeback after 2001.

 

Personally I thought he got a bit overhyped in 2000. Promising rookie season, but not really a great yet. On the other hand he became somewhat underrated around 2006, despite having proven himself with impressive seasons like 2004 and beating Barrichello in 2006. All the talk was around the trio of Alonso, M.Schumacher and Raikkonen at that time, and even compared to Montoya Button didn't have enough star power, which IMHO was a bit of a shame. 2004 was the season in which Button showed to me that he was championship material. 


Edited by sopa, 21 April 2019 - 08:32.


#69 boillot

boillot
  • Member

  • 767 posts
  • Joined: June 18

Posted 21 April 2019 - 08:37

It’s ‘s true that without the double diffuser trick he wouldn’t have been champion but winning championships in the last 10 or so years really became just a matter of being at the right place and not much more.
I rate him in the same league as Rosberg, Räikkönen, Vettel, Webber or most of the other one-time title winners (and a lot of non-winners) and that’s not actually bad.

Edited by boillot, 21 April 2019 - 08:38.


#70 DeKnyff

DeKnyff
  • Member

  • 1,696 posts
  • Joined: November 13

Posted 21 April 2019 - 09:08

Just trying to balance this kind of stuff really.

 

 

So he was better than 3 of these drivers? Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, Schumacher, Raikonnen, Kubica, Hakkinen, Montoya

The concept of drivers pecking order is a tricky one. I don't think you can tell, in motorsports, that driver A is "better" than driver B, specially if they are closely matched. It depends too much on the circumstances. At best, you can define classes: among the drivers who started in Formula 1 in the first decade of the 21st century, there are two that stand up as the best: Hamilton and Alonso. May be also Vettel, but his last two years at Ferrari have seriously tarnished his reputation. Then, you have a second tier of very good, albeit not great, drivers: Räikkönen, Button, Montoya, Rosberg, maybe Kubica. They all belong to the same group, but you can't tell who is better than who. Depends on the circumstances.



#71 Zilbert

Zilbert
  • Member

  • 673 posts
  • Joined: February 16

Posted 21 April 2019 - 09:14

Nice chap. Glad he got his title. Probably overrated by some regarding his talent/skill. Got the feeling he was quite a political animal and that's one of the main reasons he did well against top tier teammates, and not necessarily due to having matching skill set. Great sense of humor: "Something was definitely wrong with the car, i think it was me".  :lol:



#72 Dicun

Dicun
  • Member

  • 571 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 21 April 2019 - 09:18

It seems to be largely forgotten that Trulli actually matched Button in 2002, but had lesser reliability. When it comes to, say, 2012, people talk about reliability a lot, but older seasons seem to have gone into the history bin already. Nevertheless it was a good season by Button and a good comeback after 2001.

 

Personally I thought he got a bit overhyped in 2000. Promising rookie season, but not really a great yet. On the other hand he became somewhat underrated around 2006, despite having proven himself with impressive seasons like 2004 and beating Barrichello in 2006. All the talk was around the trio of Alonso, M.Schumacher and Raikkonen at that time, and even compared to Montoya Button didn't have enough star power, which IMHO was a bit of a shame. 2004 was the season in which Button showed to me that he was championship material. 

 

2006 was one of the absolute highlights of Button's career. With a car that was only 4th in the WCC, he scored a pole, his first win with a magnificent drive and a total of three podiums, ending the year with seven consecutive finishes in the top five – a feat with which he actually outscored everyone bar Schumi (42 points vs 40 scored).



#73 Nonesuch

Nonesuch
  • Member

  • 15,870 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 21 April 2019 - 09:21

When it comes to, say, 2012, people talk about reliability a lot, but older seasons seem to have gone into the history bin already.

 

There's always a lot of recency bias in these things. It takes a while for things to settle down and get a good overview of a person's entire career.

 

Plus there's an expectation that people will forever keep getting better, even when conditions don't necessarily allow them to demonstrate that - further overemphasising later (perceived) performances.

 

A comment earlier in this thread prompted me to look for a 2012 season review, and it was quite amusing to see how narratives have been reversed. The situations are often far more complex than we like to deal with, so you end up working with abstractions that, intentionally or not, frequently end up in caricatures.

 

Edited by Nonesuch, 21 April 2019 - 09:23.


#74 Dicun

Dicun
  • Member

  • 571 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 21 April 2019 - 09:24

Just trying to balance this kind of stuff really.

 

 

So he was better than 3 of these drivers? Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, Schumacher, Raikonnen, Kubica, Hakkinen, Montoya

 

Out of these names, Mika and Schumi belong to a different generation.

 

I rate Button only below Hamilton and Alonso from his generation, so in my view, he was overall a better, more consistent and reliable driver than Kimi, Vettel, Rosberg, Kubica or Montoya (oh boy, what have I done, brace yourselves  :lol: ).



#75 Nonesuch

Nonesuch
  • Member

  • 15,870 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 21 April 2019 - 09:32

... he was overall a better, more consistent and reliable driver than Kimi, Vettel, Rosberg, Kubica or Montoya (oh boy, what have I done, brace yourselves  :lol: ).

 

I can see the argument for Räikkönen and Montoya, and Kubica to some degree although his career was obviously cut short.

 

But Rosberg and Vettel mounted multiple title challenges versus Hamilton, and Vettel even against Alonso. While Button's team-mate was having a go at the title in 2010 and 2012, he was unable to do so.

 

Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel mounted credible title challenges-  not all of which were successful - when they had a car to do so. Button not so much.

 


#76 Widefoot2

Widefoot2
  • Member

  • 439 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 21 April 2019 - 09:35

I'm curious what people think would have happened if he'd stayed with Mercedes nee Brawn.  Would he have beaten Rosberg (presumably would have handled Michael if he was the other driver)?  Would he or Rosberg have left the team when Lewis came in?



#77 Dicun

Dicun
  • Member

  • 571 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 21 April 2019 - 09:38

I'm curious what people think would have happened if he'd stayed with Mercedes nee Brawn.  Would he have beaten Rosberg (presumably would have handled Michael if he was the other driver)?  Would he or Rosberg have left the team when Lewis came in?

 

I think he would have been capable to beat Rosberg, absolutely. Not in qualifying for sure, but in the races over the course of a full season, very much so, yes.



#78 Zilbert

Zilbert
  • Member

  • 673 posts
  • Joined: February 16

Posted 21 April 2019 - 09:47

 

I can see the argument for Räikkönen and Montoya, and Kubica to some degree although his career was obviously cut short.

 

But Rosberg and Vettel mounted multiple title challenges versus Hamilton, and Vettel even against Alonso. While Button's team-mate was having a go at the title in 2010 and 2012, he was unable to do so.

 

Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel mounted credible title challenges-  not all of which were successful - when they had a car to do so. Button not so much.

 

 

In 2003 both Kimi and Montoya challenged prime Schumacher for the title, a feat much more impressive than couple of Rosbergs "challenges" in a absolutely dominant car. 



#79 Nonesuch

Nonesuch
  • Member

  • 15,870 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 21 April 2019 - 09:59

In 2003 both Kimi and Montoya challenged prime Schumacher for the title, a feat much more impressive than couple of Rosbergs "challenges" in a absolutely dominant car. 

 

Agree on Räikkönen - that was me falling victim to the same recency bias I just complained about. :lol:

 

I was mostly trying to emphasise the difficulty in doing this multiple times. Räikkönen obviously did, and I should have mentioned that. :up:

 

While I don't think Rosberg is all that amazing, if we're going with Hamilton being in the top tier then Rosberg deserves massive credit for keeping him honest over multiple years - and even beating him frequently.



Advertisement

#80 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 16,747 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 21 April 2019 - 09:59

I rate him in the same league as Vettel, Webber

That's a pretty wide league you're talking about.

#81 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 20,817 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 21 April 2019 - 10:05

 

I can see the argument for Räikkönen and Montoya, and Kubica to some degree although his career was obviously cut short.

 

But Rosberg and Vettel mounted multiple title challenges versus Hamilton, and Vettel even against Alonso. While Button's team-mate was having a go at the title in 2010 and 2012, he was unable to do so.

 

Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel mounted credible title challenges-  not all of which were successful - when they had a car to do so. Button not so much.

 

 

 

Jenson was in the title fight in 2010, along with the other 4 guys. He was still 2nd in the championship, ahead of both Red Bulls and Alonso, after the German Grand Prix. He was also the McLaren driver who finished highest in the championship in his 3 years with Hamilton. He just had the misfortune that his strongest year was the one which Red Bull was furthest ahead.



#82 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 16,747 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 21 April 2019 - 10:08

In 2003 both Kimi and Montoya challenged prime Schumacher for the title, a feat much more impressive than couple of Rosbergs "challenges" in a absolutely dominant car.

All depends on the car though. For all we know it wasn't that impressive if the Ferrari wasn't as good as their cars.

#83 Nonesuch

Nonesuch
  • Member

  • 15,870 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 21 April 2019 - 10:16

Jenson was in the title fight in 2010, along with the other 4 guys. He was still 2nd in the championship, ahead of both Red Bulls and Alonso, after the German Grand Prix.

 
In absolute terms, yes. He was closer than it's been in the last years, but at the same time, in such a broad field to be as far back as he was after the no-score in Korea, even he had to admit he was all but out of it.
 
In more normal seasons, a person 5th in the WDC would no longer be a factor five, six, maybe even more races from the end. That was obviously different in 2010.
 
When the season reached its climax, Button wasn't really a factor any longer - but where one draws that line is admittedly not an exact science.



#84 barzini

barzini
  • Member

  • 1,933 posts
  • Joined: July 16

Posted 21 April 2019 - 10:25

All depends on the car though. For all we know it wasn't that impressive if the Ferrari wasn't as good as their cars.


So now the McLaren 03 was better car than the Ferrari?

#85 Button4life

Button4life
  • Member

  • 3,075 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 21 April 2019 - 10:53

I can see the argument for Räikkönen and Montoya, and Kubica to some degree although his career was obviously cut short.

But Rosberg and Vettel mounted multiple title challenges versus Hamilton, and Vettel even against Alonso. While Button's team-mate was having a go at the title in 2010 and 2012, he was unable to do so.

Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel mounted credible title challenges- not all of which were successful - when they had a car to do so. Button not so much.


Well this is lots of nonsense. Button was in the championship fight till South Korea in 2010. So just 2 races before the end of the season his championship hopes ended. 2012 was definitely not his best season. Just like Vettel and Rosberg have had some poor seasons. The difference is when Button was clearly off the pace he finished 6th or lower because the field was much more competitive. When Vettel or Rosberg had a poor weekend they finished 2nd.

Edited by Button4life, 21 April 2019 - 10:54.


#86 Dicun

Dicun
  • Member

  • 571 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 21 April 2019 - 10:56

Regarding Button's stint at McLaren, I posted this a few years ago, so apologies for quoting myself, but it's easier than just typing it away again:

 

 

In the minds of most Hamilton fans Button wasn't doing anything special, he was just simply aided by Hamilton's personal issues. There is always this "yes but Lewis" thing lingering around when it comes to 2011. Whereas reagrding 2012, I've never heard any Hamilton fans stating that JB had a lot of difficulties with the car which was clearly suiting Lewis. For some reason, Lewis is always given a break for his defeat in 2011 due to his personal problems and this and that so Button didn't beat him on merit but JB's problems were his own doing in 2012 so nothing to discuss there.

 

Frankly, I got tired of this. Think whatever you will but I remember vividly how all of my friends and acquaintances supporting Lewis were really depressed after China 2012 because Button beat him in both races he finished that year up until that point and nobody was talking about Lewis's personal issues and whatnot anymore but had to give credit to Jenson for being a great driver who was genuinely able to beat Hamilton. Then from that point as the season progressed and Jenson's struggles with the car unfolded we got to the aforementioned and unfair "Lewis only got beaten in 2011 because he was depressed!!!!44" narrative that got stuck in a lot of people's minds ever since.

 

Either Lewis was beaten fair and square in 2011 just like Jenson was beaten fair and square the following year OR Lewis had his issues which stopped him from giving his best performance in 2011 therefore the result against Button is asterisked just like JB had his own problems which prevented him from performing at his best in 2012 therefore the result against Lewis is asterisked.

 

It's high time people made up their minds because you can't have your cake and it eat too.



#87 Radion

Radion
  • Member

  • 2,342 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 21 April 2019 - 11:11

@Dicun
It's one thing to lose to someone because his head is somewhere else or because he's simply slower. Even in 2011 Hamilton was fast but made some very stupid mistakes that were exclusive to this year alone.

Button beat Lewis in 2011 because he is/was mentally/emotionally the stronger driver. Which in itself is a feat not to be downplayed because in a title fight you'd want a mentally strong driver.
Thing though is, you can almost always sort your head out... speed l can only be improved so much. Button not being able to cope with setup/car is the same argument people use against kimis inability to adjust and drive around 'problems'. This should also apply to button frankly. (please don't take this as bash against button!)

Edited by Radion, 21 April 2019 - 11:13.


#88 Marklar

Marklar
  • Member

  • 34,742 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 21 April 2019 - 11:53

I find it generally tough to compare Rosberg and Button's time against Hamilton. Beside that Hamilton probably became a much better driver towards the end of his time with Button, of course.
 

Rosberg/Hamilton was 90 % of the time a qualifying/start battle, any race advantage was (mostly) irrelevant. And regardless of your performance you would mostly finish just one place apart. Button was driving against Hamilton when the field was competitive and when all factors mattered (quali, start, race pace, tyre management, etc.). This all actually happens to suit their individual strength somewhat (Rosberg in quali, Button in race), though.
 
I tend to rate Rosberg a tad higher because he was way more consistently quick, not only when he had a dominant car, but across his entire career, but Button had more impressive peaks IMO.
 
Vettel is generally a tough case to argue, so I dont get into that :p I tend to give him the benefit of doubt and place him in that tier between Alonso/Hamilton and Rosberg/Button.

 

@Dicun
It's one thing to lose to someone because his head is somewhere else or because he's simply slower. Even in 2011 Hamilton was fast but made some very stupid mistakes that were exclusive to this year alone.

Button beat Lewis in 2011 because he is/was mentally/emotionally the stronger driver. Which in itself is a feat not to be downplayed because in a title fight you'd want a mentally strong driver.
Thing though is, you can almost always sort your head out... speed l can only be improved so much. Button not being able to cope with setup/car is the same argument people use against kimis inability to adjust and drive around 'problems'. This should also apply to button frankly. (please don't take this as bash against button!)

I also think it depends on how frequent this is. Hamilton was one season all over the place, before and after this never again. However, Button's setup issues are a more frequent theme across his career (albeit not as frequent as Kimi's adaptability issues :p)
 



#89 Dicun

Dicun
  • Member

  • 571 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 21 April 2019 - 11:58

@Dicun
It's one thing to lose to someone because his head is somewhere else or because he's simply slower. Even in 2011 Hamilton was fast but made some very stupid mistakes that were exclusive to this year alone.

Button beat Lewis in 2011 because he is/was mentally/emotionally the stronger driver. Which in itself is a feat not to be downplayed because in a title fight you'd want a mentally strong driver.
Thing though is, you can almost always sort your head out... speed l can only be improved so much. Button not being able to cope with setup/car is the same argument people use against kimis inability to adjust and drive around 'problems'. This should also apply to button frankly. (please don't take this as bash against button!)

 

Button had setup issues, not speed problems and these, similarly to mental/emotional issues, can also be sorted out, and he duly sorted them out by the second half of 2012.

 

I understand where you are coming from and I agree that Button, like Kimi, had a narrow window of operation with regards to ideal setup and balance. The main reason I mentioned earlier that I didn't want to discuss JB in detail despite being his fan was that I'm quite tired of the fact that whenever Button's name comes up, the usual suspects show up within minutes and turn it into yet another Button vs. Hamilton slugfest. 

 

Button had a 17-year long career, yet talking about Button is almost always equals to talking about 2010-2012 around here.



#90 PlatenGlass

PlatenGlass
  • Member

  • 1,929 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 21 April 2019 - 12:35

Line up the CV's... Button isn't in the same class as Villeneuve comparing their whole careers and context.

The 2003 'beating' JB 'handed' to JV is one of the most overhyped teammate comparisons in modern F1 history. It wasn't the almighty flogging people will have you believe.

But then again that's just the sort of hate JV gets.

I don't think it requires JV hate to put Button ahead. In F1 terms I would put Button ahead but in terms of overall career you might use Villeneuve's Indy success in his favour.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 21 April 2019 - 13:18.


#91 Fatgadget

Fatgadget
  • Member

  • 6,113 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 21 April 2019 - 12:47

I think Button would have easily done away with Kimi. Button was much more competitive vs Alonso and Hamilton than Raikkonen was. 

 

I'd put him behind Hamilton/Alonso absolutely and probably slightly behind Vettel. He might out race Vettel over a season though.

No ways.Not the pre-rally sojurn Kimi.And I'm sure a head to head count will show Kimi miles ahead.Yes the Maclren more or less on a par with the Ferrari


Edited by Fatgadget, 21 April 2019 - 13:02.


#92 Nonesuch

Nonesuch
  • Member

  • 15,870 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 21 April 2019 - 12:53

Well this is lots of nonsense. Button was in the championship fight till South Korea in 2010. So just 2 races before the end of the season his championship hopes ended.

 

Yes, and even in the last race four people still had a chance to win. In a broad field even the places further down are going to be theoretical candidates for longer.

 

To have to bow out earlier, like Button did, doesn't make his season a bad one but he ultimately couldn't hang on as long as Webber, Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso did.



#93 Zilbert

Zilbert
  • Member

  • 673 posts
  • Joined: February 16

Posted 21 April 2019 - 12:59

While Rosberg was a quick-ish driver no doubt, I still remember radio transmission with his engineer giving him precise instruction when to brake into the corner in a midst of his heroic title challenges .  :drunk:   That was pretty pathetic moment for F1 in general. That's why i can't help but cringe when someone puts him in supposedly superior tier to more old school, feel drivers like Jenson and Kimi even taking into account their limitations.



#94 ArchieTech

ArchieTech
  • Member

  • 1,308 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 21 April 2019 - 13:08

Yes, and even in the last race four people still had a chance to win. In a broad field even the places further down are going to be theoretical candidates for longer.

 

To have to bow out earlier, like Button did, doesn't make his season a bad one but he ultimately couldn't hang on as long as Webber, Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso did.

Indeed and his chances weren't exactly helped by his DNF in Spa after Vettel spun and crashed into the side of him during a failed overtake into the bus stop.



#95 Fatgadget

Fatgadget
  • Member

  • 6,113 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 21 April 2019 - 13:08

While Rosberg was a quick-ish driver no doubt, I still remember radio transmission with his engineer giving him precise instruction when to brake into the corner in a midst of his heroic title challenges .  :drunk:   That was pretty pathetic moment for F1 in general. That's why i can't help but cringe when someone puts him in supposedly superior tier to more old school, feel drivers like Jenson and Kimi even taking into account their limitations.

Nothing in the rules saying that wasn't allowed! You take advantage of everything you can..within the rules.I see no problem with that.



#96 Zilbert

Zilbert
  • Member

  • 673 posts
  • Joined: February 16

Posted 21 April 2019 - 13:23

Nothing in the rules saying that wasn't allowed! You take advantage of everything you can..within the rules.I see no problem with that.

It's a problem if we start asking the question how good of a driver Rosberg really was. It wasn't just " you're losing this much time in that corner by braking earlier", it was also "brake 10 meters later"  :lol: I wasn't questioning legality of it, rather the merits of a driver in such state of affairs.



#97 messy

messy
  • Member

  • 3,986 posts
  • Joined: October 15

Posted 21 April 2019 - 13:32

No ways.Not the pre-rally sojurn Kimi.And I'm sure a head to head count will show Kimi miles ahead.Yes the Maclren more or less on a par with the Ferrari


Personally I think Kimi and Jenson are/were very comparable in terms of their level. I'd give Button the edge I think. Jenson had far less competitive cars over the balance of his career. It was only really 2009 and then 2010-12 that Jenson had a winning car wasn't it? Five seasons including 2006. Kimi? I make it fourteen seasons. Big, big, big difference.

#98 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 16,747 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 21 April 2019 - 13:37

To have to bow out earlier, like Button did, doesn't make his season a bad one but he ultimately couldn't hang on as long as Webber, Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso did.

Let's just neglect the differences in cars and teammates. Webber > Button confirmed.

#99 Massa_f1

Massa_f1
  • Member

  • 4,981 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 21 April 2019 - 13:47

People mention 2009 and 2011 as his best seasons, but his 2004 season was pretty decent as well. That was really the first signs that if he had a decent car he could maybe win many races and be in the title hunt.


Edited by Massa_f1, 21 April 2019 - 13:47.


Advertisement

#100 messy

messy
  • Member

  • 3,986 posts
  • Joined: October 15

Posted 21 April 2019 - 13:50

2004, given that he was only 24 and had never been in a frontrunning car before - was mightily impressive. Podium after podium, and a beautiful drive through the field to P2 at Hockenheim.

A shame that BAR car never won a race when inferior Renault McLaren and Williams all won a race each.