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Lets talk about Button


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#101 Zilbert

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 13:51

Personally I think Kimi and Jenson are/were very comparable in terms of their level. I'd give Button the edge I think. Jenson had far less competitive cars over the balance of his career. It was only really 2009 and then 2010-12 that Jenson had a winning car wasn't it? Five seasons including 2006. Kimi? I make it fourteen seasons. Big, big, big difference.

Well what makes the car a winning one? With two Grosjeans those Lotus car would win nothing. Same with Ferrari 2009. Equally you could argue a with a driver quicker then Jenson ( i am sure we could think of some) perhaps those Hondas would win couple of more races over the years.



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#102 messy

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 13:56

Well what makes the car a winning one? With two Grosjeans those Lotus car would win nothing. Same with Ferrari 2009. Equally you could argue a with a driver quicker then Jenson ( i am sure we could think of some) perhaps those Hondas would win couple of more races over the years.


Go down that route and you could literally argue anything, though. I'm just counting "winning cars" as cars that won races, and the 2006 BAR is probably the weakest of the bunch.

#103 Marklar

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 14:12

It's a problem if we start asking the question how good of a driver Rosberg really was. It wasn't just " you're losing this much time in that corner by braking earlier", it was also "brake 10 meters later" :lol: I wasn't questioning legality of it, rather the merits of a driver in such state of affairs.

All drivers have a so called senior performance engineer. And their job is to determine with the help of GPS where drivers are losing how much time and how they can improve. Whether they are told this during practice or after it is in the end a preference matter, but for everyone the same.

#104 PlatenGlass

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 14:26

Personally I think Kimi and Jenson are/were very comparable in terms of their level. I'd give Button the edge I think. Jenson had far less competitive cars over the balance of his career. It was only really 2009 and then 2010-12 that Jenson had a winning car wasn't it? Five seasons including 2006. Kimi? I make it fourteen seasons. Big, big, big difference.

Yeah, I wouldn't put one obviously ahead of the other. Would Button have been as good as Raikkonen in 2003 to 2006? I don't know, but any other Kimi period including the 2007 title I would say so.

#105 Zilbert

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 14:36

Go down that route and you could literally argue anything, though. I'm just counting "winning cars" as cars that won races, and the 2006 BAR is probably the weakest of the bunch.

I am just saying "winning car" argument is rather poor one.



#106 FrontWing

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 15:34

I think he would have been capable to beat Rosberg, absolutely. Not in qualifying for sure, but in the races over the course of a full season, very much so, yes.


Really? Even with Merc pitting the lead driver? It wouldn't happen very often.

#107 Dicun

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 15:40

Really? Even with Merc pitting the lead driver? It wouldn't happen very often.

 

I believe so, yes. Button was much more solid in overtaking and defending, faster in the wet and better at tyre management (the latter was a big part of why Hamilton kept beating him for years).

 

Rosberg would have had an advantage in terms of raw pace, but because of the aforementioned reasons, I'd say Button would have been able to beat Rosberg over the course of a full season.



#108 chrisj

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 15:51

He was never quite as bad as I thought, and I agree that had he been any other nationality, his career in F1 would have been about 2 seasons. Nearly choked away a certain championship harder than anyone else I've ever seen. 



#109 FrontWing

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 15:52

I believe so, yes. Button was much more solid in overtaking and defending, faster in the wet and better at tyre management (the latter was a big part of why Hamilton kept beating him for years).

Rosberg would have had an advantage in terms of raw pace, but because of the aforementioned reasons, I'd say Button would have been able to beat Rosberg over the course of a full season.

I think 2014 would have been his best shot. After that, and with the way the cars developed aerodynamically, it became too hard to overtake in the same car.

I'd have to give it to Rosberg over the 3 years.

#110 sopa

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 15:56

I'm curious what people think would have happened if he'd stayed with Mercedes nee Brawn.  Would he have beaten Rosberg (presumably would have handled Michael if he was the other driver)?  Would he or Rosberg have left the team when Lewis came in?

 

Button-Rosberg would have been a very interesting and closely fought team-mate battle. Probably would have taken turns in getting the better of each other

 

Not sure, what would it have meant for the driver market though. For starters, who would have driven in McLaren from 2010!



#111 Touchdown

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 17:45

All drivers have a so called senior performance engineer. And their job is to determine with the help of GPS where drivers are losing how much time and how they can improve. Whether they are told this during practice or after it is in the end a preference matter, but for everyone the same.

Always found this to be a strange stick that people would beat Rosberg and Rosberg only with. All drivers study data and see where their team-mate is going faster than them, including Lewis.



#112 Beri

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 18:05

I don’t particularly miss anyone out of F1. That’s not criteria for how good someone was.


Well, what is the criteria then? What does it that people do think Button was/is properly good? Because to be fair; I can't name it.

#113 PayasYouRace

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 18:19

Well, what is the criteria then? What does it that people do think Button was/is properly good? Because to be fair; I can't name it.

 

His performance on track, as many in this thread have given examples of, including but not limited to great drives for Williams in 2000, BAR in 2004-2006, his championship year in the Brawn and his McLaren years alongside Lewis.

 

Whether you miss someone or not is a sentimental aspect. For me, F1 is too full of interesting stories that even when someone leaves, there's someone else to keep things interesting.



#114 Beri

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 18:58

His performance on track, as many in this thread have given examples of, including but not limited to great drives for Williams in 2000, BAR in 2004-2006, his championship year in the Brawn and his McLaren years alongside Lewis.

Whether you miss someone or not is a sentimental aspect. For me, F1 is too full of interesting stories that even when someone leaves, there's someone else to keep things interesting.


That last bit I fully agree upon. But those great drives, well let's say I have a different opinion.

#115 Anuity

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 19:06

I like Jenson, he is a nice guy and a very capable driver.

I struggle to remember any particularly great drives from him. Some spring to mind, but nothing extrodionary special.

 

I find his championship year very poor especially the second half was very underwhelming. his Williams debut was alright, but he looked pretty bleak compared to Ralf all around.

2004-2006 was great though.

Solid driver. But during their peak years, Raikkonen was much better hands down.



#116 messy

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 19:25

In defence of 2009, I've never seen that season the way lots seem to regarding Button. From what I saw Jenson won that crown fair and square by doing two things utterly brilliantly.

1. When Brawn came out in Barcelona testing with a neat double diffuser and a big pace advantage, he then leapt on it completely, absolutely nailed those early races when the car was at its best, poles, wins, 10pts, 10pts, 10pts. Using the (weak) argument about 'winning cars' etc then, with two Barrichellos in that Brawn, it would have been a competitive but not dominant proposition in those early races, but in Button's hands he nailed six wins from seven and quite frankly pretty much won the WDC from that alone.

2. When Red Bull overtook Brawn, as Ferrari, McLaren et al developed their way up onto their pace at the front, as Brawn inevitably slipped back due to the extremely limited development they could do compared to the other teams....Button just got his head down and kept his points total ticking over, fourth, fifth, third....when he needed to get a certain result at Interlagos from way back on the grid, he drove one of his best ever races, inch perfect, fearless, unflappable, and got the result he needed.

Oh, people say, but Barrichello won two races in that second half of the year - yeah, sure, but races where Brawn were right up there were the exception rather than the rule and at Monza Barrichello headed a throwback to the early season dominant 1-2 after they nailed a one-stop strategy to leapfrog Hamilton and co, and I think Jenson was by then happy to bank 8 points.

I think he played the whole thing perfectly.

#117 Dicun

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 19:32

In defence of 2009, I've never seen that season the way lots seem to regarding Button. From what I saw Jenson won that crown fair and square by doing two things utterly brilliantly.

1. When Brawn came out in Barcelona testing with a neat double diffuser and a big pace advantage, he then leapt on it completely, absolutely nailed those early races when the car was at its best, poles, wins, 10pts, 10pts, 10pts. Using the (weak) argument about 'winning cars' etc then, with two Barrichellos in that Brawn, it would have been a competitive but not dominant proposition in those early races, but in Button's hands he nailed six wins from seven and quite frankly pretty much won the WDC from that alone.

2. When Red Bull overtook Brawn, as Ferrari, McLaren et al developed their way up onto their pace at the front, as Brawn inevitably slipped back due to the extremely limited development they could do compared to the other teams....Button just got his head down and kept his points total ticking over, fourth, fifth, third....when he needed to get a certain result at Interlagos from way back on the grid, he drove one of his best ever races, inch perfect, fearless, unflappable, and got the result he needed.

Oh, people say, but Barrichello won two races in that second half of the year - yeah, sure, but races where Brawn were right up there were the exception rather than the rule and at Monza Barrichello headed a throwback to the early season dominant 1-2 after they nailed a one-stop strategy to leapfrog Hamilton and co, and I think Jenson was by then happy to bank 8 points.

I think he played the whole thing perfectly.

 

Monza also confirmed why any conspiracy theories regarding Barcelona were unfounded as Rubens was allowed to lead a 1-2 home in the last third of the championship when it'd been clear for months that, as you too duly pointed out, Brawn were no longer a regular threat for wins and podiums.



#118 Nathan

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 19:35

I put Jenson on the third shelf from the top with the likes of Raikkonen, Coulthard, Rosberg etc.

 

Well, what is the criteria then? What does it that people do think Button was/is properly good? Because to be fair; I can't name it.

 

So...are you saying he wasn't good?  I can understand saying "I don't understand why he would be considered great", but he wasn't even good? 



#119 MrRat

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 20:04

Jenson imo is a better driver than seb is.

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#120 domhnall

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 20:21

Jenson is the GOAT



#121 Zilbert

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 20:33

All drivers have a so called senior performance engineer. And their job is to determine with the help of GPS where drivers are losing how much time and how they can improve. Whether they are told this during practice or after it is in the end a preference matter, but for everyone the same.

Wasn't overt driver coaching banned a short while after this? We see drivers studying GPS data themselves between quali runs which is a bit different than having their engineers doing it. Not sure what are the exact rules now.



#122 PayasYouRace

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 22:11

The criticising of another driver's fanbase is one reason why we don't like driver threads without a particular focus. This thread has been relatively civil up to know but it's fast running out of that, and posts have been removed.

 

If it happens again we'll close the thread.

 

Perhaps we can try to steer towards what Jenson is doing nowadays, rather than doing the McLaren teammate battle of 2010-2012 ad nauseum?



#123 Button4life

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 22:12

Every Button thread turns into a Hamilton vs Button thread. You would almost think they were past lovers of each other and the fans are friends defending them. It's quite sad there can't be a Button thread where Hamilton fans don't down talk Button and up talk Hamilton. Same case with the Button fans.

#124 PayasYouRace

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 22:15

In that case, thread closed.

 

I was hoping for at least one post beyond that warning without continued discussion of fanbases.