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Then and Now...


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#1 Doug Nye

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 19:20

Easter boredom led to this, trying to fix the location of a Branger glass-plate photograph taken at the Rambouillet voiturette race in 1907.  I have great reservations about the Google empire, but Google Earth is simply wonderful and its Street View facility magnificent...  I hope this constitutes fair and reasonable use of their system's imagery...

 

1 - Delage driver Menard acknowledging a bystander during the 1907 Coupe des Voiturettes race at Rambouillet - but where on that 21-mile circuit? (GPL Branger Photo)

 

GPL-MENARD-DELAGE-1907-COUPE-DES-VOITURE

 

2 - Here's the answer.  Like the match?  The location is on the D988 in St Arnoult-en-Yvelines, Ile de France.  It is quite remarkable how little has changed between Banger's photography, 1907 - and the Google car's mobile imagery, 2018.

 

Screen-Shot-2019-04-21-at-13-04-41.png

 

3 - I then thought I'd have a go at a longer course, so tackled the Auvergne circuit as used for the 1905 Coupe Gordon Bennett race.  It's only 85 miles per lap. I had this Branger photo so set out to match it. I cheated, of course - checked where the controles de passage were located, and then hunted them out.  This is Duray's de Dietrich in the Rochefort-Montagne control... which was sited where, exactly? (GPL Branger Photo)

 

GPL-BRANGER-DURAY-DIETRICH-AT-ROCHEFORT-

 

4 - Another good match - note the building with the curious curved line to its roof eaves on the left... The location is adjacent to No 14 Route de Clermont, Rochefort-Montagne, Puy de Dome, France.

 

Screen-Shot-2019-04-21-at-21-47-56.png

 

Well...114 years later, it kept me amused...

 

Archive Photos: The GP Library

 

DCN


Edited by Doug Nye, 25 April 2019 - 22:04.


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#2 MartLgn

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 19:59

Nice work Doug! The first picture shows signs of the shutter lag of the cameras of the day that make the front wheels look ever so slightly oval.

Rest assured that Google get much more from you than you ever could from them, if it's free to use then you are the product :-)



#3 Sterzo

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 21:01

Fantastic - makes me want to go and drive round the circuits. (Once lapped1923 Tours in a Vauxhall Cavalier).



#4 Odseybod

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 21:16

Another vote of thanks for Google Street View, especially when used in conjunction with the rather wonderful www.reelstreets.com which links the locations from classic films with the same places today. Whilst the site's 'then and now' stills are interesting, tapping the name of the location into Street View lets you have a good nose around. "The Ladykillers" is a natural for this sort of thing, of course, though most of the King's Cross area is now unrecognisable. As a Jacques Tati fan, I felt obliged to explore the location of M. Hulot's Holiday, which I'd actually visited about 20 years ago, while using Street View to look around the surprisingly unchanged small town in "Jour de Fete" revealed a little Tati museum tucked away in a corner of the main square, of which I'd known nothing. Well done Tinterweb (sometimes).



#5 Vitesse2

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 21:47

This 1937 picture of CA Paul's garage is one of three posted on the Triple M Register website a while back. A dig through old phone books revealed that the address was 51 The Mall, Ealing.

 

2017716165652-C-A-Paul.jpg

 

And here it is now - note that the windows are almost unchanged apart from the insertion of a central pillar at the front and a ventilator near the wall. That mullioned glass at the top is likely over 100 years old!

 

Clipboard02.jpg



#6 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 22:04

Couldn't they have covered the numberplates of the MGs?

At least Google Earth gives billions of cars anonymity as it goes...

Though I have seen one car grow an extra pair of wheels where pictures have been automatically joined.




.

Edited by Ray Bell, 23 April 2019 - 15:06.


#7 BRG

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 18:29

Google Maps and Street View are truly wondrous things that have been a genuine benefit to mankind.  Or at least to me.  How Street View is done remains a mystery to me let alone how many hours they must put in pixelating out all the faces and registration numbers.  One of my friends appears outside his house - you can't see his face, but we recognised him by his knobbly knees.

 

Just a point from the very first shot that Doug posted - was it normal for the marshals to carry rifles?  And can it be brought back to deal with track limit and yellow flag abuse?



#8 opplock

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 19:42

 

 

Just a point from the very first shot that Doug posted - was it normal for the marshals to carry rifles?  And can it be brought back to deal with track limit and yellow flag abuse?

 

The idea is attractive but the potential legal issues arising from poor communication between flaggie and sniper would probably kill off the idea. "I said shoot 56 not 66 you idiot!". 



#9 Doug Nye

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 19:42

Here's another one - 1912 Belgian GP at Anseremme, just upstream from Dinant on the River Meuse-

 

GPL-BRANGER-1912-Belgian-GP-ANSEREMME.jp

 

Modern times, same location, the Rue Ariste Caussin, at Anseremme on the Meuse, just adjacent to a 'Dinant 3kms' signpost...

 

Screen-Shot-2019-04-24-at-20-39-17.png

 

Archive Photo: The GP Library

 

DCN


Edited by Doug Nye, 25 April 2019 - 22:04.


#10 Odseybod

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 23:13

You'd think someone would have blown up that bridge, purely as a matter of principle

 

.



#11 DogEarred

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 04:38

It's still used by the Resistance...

#12 Doug Nye

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 07:43

On those stone setts back in 1912 the ess-bend it forms must have been quite a challenging prospect for the competitors attempting to negotiate it at best speed...

 

DCN



#13 Belmondo

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 07:54

Fabulous old shots.



#14 Gary C

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 08:45

Absolutely loving these old photos, Doug!



#15 Odseybod

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 11:57

It's still used by the Resistance...

 

Maybe that's why the Germans in the trashiest war films are always shouting "Resistance is useless!"



#16 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 12:47

No no - Captain Picard said when assimilated by the Borg : "Resistance is futile" !

 

 

 

:p



#17 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 13:17

This is the closest I can get on Google Earth...

0419fr-GEbelgiangpbridge.jpg

Obviously taken from the wrong side of the road and the camera's not high enough to get a perfect match.

We must do more of this...

#18 Tim Murray

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 13:33

Absolutely loving these old photos, Doug!


Me too - these comparisons are fascinating. Here’s the thread relating to the race:

1912 Belgian Grand Prix

#19 Sterzo

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 13:38

Fabulous photo, but what is the car? It looks to me like a 1908 Porthos, a Belgian make (I think). One of them was still being raced in about 1910 or 11. From memory, one of the races in that period was referred to as the "Grand Prix de Vieux Tacots" because of the collection of old GP cars which took part.

 

Unfortunately my memory isn't good and anyway I wasn't at the 1912 Belgian GP.



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#20 Vitesse2

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 14:12

The 'Vieux Tacots' race was in 1911 at Le Mans.

 

Car in the picture is a SAVA. Entry list and some very similar photos in the Austrian AAZ report which I linked in the thread Tim has unearthed.



#21 BRG

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 14:21

Unfortunately my memory isn't good and anyway I wasn't at the 1912 Belgian GP.

Couldn't get the time off from work?

 

These Then and Nows are marvellous.  I hope that Doug can entertain us with more before he runs out of suitable slides.  The mystery is how so many of the buildings seem to have survived two major wars and 20th century commercial greed. 



#22 Tim Murray

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 14:47

Car in the picture is a SAVA.


Not so fast, Monsieur Vitesse! The numbers on the entry list in the AAZ report don’t tie in with the photographic evidence. The list shows #7 as Hautvast in a SAVA, but the photo on page 18 is captioned as Hautvast in a SAVA, which is wearing #9 and looking very different to #7 in Doug’s photo. Similarly, there’s a photo of the Opel team wearing numbers 3, 15, and 22, which are not their numbers on that entry list (2, 13 and 21). Unfortunately, none of the other photos show #7 or its team mates. It’s definitely not a Porthos, though, as they’re not on the entry list.

#23 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 15:46

Not long ago, posting a couple of my Amiens (today) photos on the Roaring Season forum, I resorted to Google Street View to positively identify a couple of locations of pics I found online...

Picking the houses along the street in town, seeing the changes which had been made, was interesting. I was able to show where my pics fitted in with the ones I found.

#24 Vitesse2

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 15:54

I usually associate Hautvast with Vivinus, Pipe and Clément-Bayard. However, I also found a reference to him having an association with Springuel at about this time.

 

There is a side view of the #7 car on AAZ p 23, BTW. Looks like a modified stock chassis - although the radiator doesn't look much like the few photos I can find of Springuels.

 

https://www.springuel.be/en/index.html



#25 Tim Murray

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 16:30

I think #7 might be the Germain driven by Stekke (? - not sure if I’ve read the Gothic script correctly). Germain used that distinctive oval radiator on many of their cars, including the cars they ran in the 1907 and 1908 Grands Prix de l’ACF.

#26 robert dick

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 16:53

I also think it's the Germain driven by Nestor Stekke - no idea concerning the riding mechanic.



#27 robert dick

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 17:40

Confirmation - No. 7 was the Germain driven by Nestor Stekke;
bore and stroke according to the French magazine L'Aéro = 82 x 140 mm;

according to L'Auto = 92,5 x 150 mm;
the Germain went out after six laps - reason not described.

 

 

From L'Aéro, 21 July 1912:
aero21jul12p01.jpg
aero21jul12p02.jpg
 



#28 elansprint72

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 18:00

,On those stone setts back in 1912 the ess-bend it forms must have been quite a challenging prospect for the competitors attempting to negotiate it at best speed...

 

DCN

I cringe every time someone calls setts "cobbles", as any fule kno cobbles are unshaped river stones.  :)


Edited by elansprint72, 25 April 2019 - 18:00.


#29 D-Type

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 19:03

I cringe every time someone calls setts "cobbles", as any fule kno cobbles are unshaped river stones.  :)

I never knew there is a difference.  Thanks for enlightening me.



#30 Doug Nye

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 19:30

That's sett in stone?

 

Thank you Robert - I had NO idea of the identity of that No 7 at Anseremme... having never researched those races.

 

I have been trying today - with little success - to place some of Branger's 1906 Grand Prix pix on that year's Sarthe circuit - to the east of the city, effectively anti-clockwise from Champagne to...Ardenay - Bouloire - St Calais - Conflans - Berfay - Vibraye - La Ferte-Bernard - Sceaux-sur-Huisnes - Connerre - La Belle Inutile - St Mars-la-Briere - Champagne...  

 

I have found a decent match for one shot in Connerre...

 

GPL-BRANGER-DURAY-DE-DIETRICH-IN-CONNERR

 

...as here in Connerre's Rue Faidherbe - note the matching-pattern five chimneys on the roof in the middle-distance, the former Hotel would appear to be the modern Le Miaouli Bar & Tabac (second left).

 

Screen-Shot-2019-04-25-at-21-51-50.png

 

...but other shots that were captioned many years ago as being from Connerre, or in (or near) Cherre (today a southern conurbation with La Ferte-Bernard) offer nothing much matching at all.  

 

I would not blame 113 years of urban and rural development.  It's just disappointing. This shot has been captioned as having been taken in or near Cherre. I hunted for river crossings around that area, before noticing what appears to be soot staining above the bridge arch - a railway bridge then? I need a 1906 map showing the contemporary area, and its road/river/railway system...

 

GPL-BRANGER-BARILLIER-BRASIER-1906-GP-de

 

The good news is that this all makes true matches the more satisfying once one spots them.   :stoned:

 

Archive Photos: The GP Library

 

DCN


Edited by Doug Nye, 05 May 2019 - 09:08.


#31 Doug Nye

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 21:59

Here's another problem pic for me, from the Branger glass-plate negatives.  It shows the Napier team cars during the 1903 Gordon Bennett Cup race meeting at Athy in Ireland.  This photo's location has been captioned as being in Athy itself.  But I cannot match that road width and those buildings with Athy today...  Any ideas, anyone?  I have investigated nearby Carlow, following the post office clue...but nothing seems to match...

 

GPL-BRANGER-NAPIERS-IN-ATHY-1903-Gordon-

 

Is this a suburb of Dublin, the Napiers en route to Athy, perhaps?

 

Archive Photo: The GP Library

 

DCN


Edited by Doug Nye, 25 April 2019 - 22:07.


#32 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 22:52

I hunted all along the railway line at Cherre...

Nothing like this there, or to the north or the south for a long way. You're looking for a railway going through a cutting with a relatively straight road over the top of it.

#33 AByrne27

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 00:45

Here's another problem pic for me, from the Branger glass-plate negatives.  It shows the Napier team cars during the 1903 Gordon Bennett Cup race meeting at Athy in Ireland.  This photo's location has been captioned as being in Athy itself.  But I cannot match that road width and those buildings with Athy today...  Any ideas, anyone?  I have investigated nearby Carlow, following the post office clue...but nothing seems to match...

 

GPL-BRANGER-NAPIERS-IN-ATHY-1903-Gordon-

 

Is this a suburb of Dublin, the Napiers en route to Athy, perhaps?

 

Archive Photo: The GP Library

 

DCN

It looks to me like the main street in Naas, Doug:

Naas.png



#34 Charlieman

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 10:45

On those stone setts back in 1912 the ess-bend it forms must have been quite a challenging prospect for the competitors attempting to negotiate it at best speed...

These old photos are difficult to interpret.

 

That race was in July 1912? There is a lot of dust from the paved surface and a surprising absence of equine-derived fertiliser. 

 

Some of the spectators are dressed in summer suits and hats, others in winter caps and long coats.



#35 Charlieman

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 11:24

Here's another problem pic for me, from the Branger glass-plate negatives.  It shows the Napier team cars during the 1903 Gordon Bennett Cup race meeting at Athy in Ireland.  This photo's location has been captioned as being in Athy itself.  But I cannot match that road width and those buildings with Athy today...  Any ideas, anyone?  I have investigated nearby Carlow, following the post office clue...but nothing seems to match...

 

GPL-BRANGER-NAPIERS-IN-ATHY-1903-Gordon-

 

Is this a suburb of Dublin, the Napiers en route to Athy, perhaps?

 

Archive Photo: The GP Library

 

DCN

 

 

It looks to me like the main street in Naas, Doug:

Possibly not Naas. There's an architectural history page for the Post Office at Naas. The building is very similar but the second floor windows and roof drainage above don't fit with the current description. 

http://www.buildings...&regno=11814039



#36 AByrne27

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 11:57

Possibly not Naas. There's an architectural history page for the Post Office at Naas. The building is very similar but the second floor windows and roof drainage above don't fit with the current description. 

http://www.buildings...&regno=11814039

I think they've moved premises, actually, and that the 1903 post office is this building: http://www.buildings...&regno=11814037

 

Also, here's a better look at the buildings on the left (the tree that's there now plus the differing focal lengths sort of throws off our orientation):

Naas2.png


Edited by AByrne27, 26 April 2019 - 11:59.


#37 Geoff E

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 11:58

Possibly not Naas. There's an architectural history page for the Post Office at Naas. The building is very similar but the second floor windows and roof drainage above don't fit with the current description. 

 

 

Forgetting the Post Office for a moment, consider the two buildings beyond it and the low building beyond them.

 

Also, consider the gabled building a little further on https://www.google.c...!7i16384!8i8192


Edited by Geoff E, 26 April 2019 - 11:58.


#38 Doug Nye

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 14:36

Plainly Naas - camera position adjacent to No 53 S. High Street, as also advised by two other friends on e-mail.  Thanks everyone. I am very unlikely to have found that particular location on my own...

 

DCN



#39 LittleChris

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 20:33

Returning to the Cherre bridge.

 

If you zoom in on the roundabout adjacent to the Leclerc supermarket as you enter La Ferte Bernard from St Calais / Vibraye there's a path which bisects the D1 via a zebra crossing from SW to NE immediately north of the roundabout. Using streetview to look NE from the crossing it looks to me like the path might once have been a railway that's now a footpath. Looking SW from this position the path is lower but probably because the road at the roundabout has been built up. There seems no reason for this section of path which now leads to a housing estate to exist unless it had a prior function eg railway

 

Looking north up the D1 the road rises as per DCN's picture.

 

I wonder if this could've been the place ?



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#40 Doug Nye

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 22:29

At the risk of boring you with these old Branger pix (of old bangers), how's about this match? Paul Baras' Brasier beating at speed towards one of the temporary footbridges erected over the Seine circuit at Dieppe, for the 1907 Grand Prix...

GPL-BRANGER-PAUL-BARAS-BRASIER-1907-GRAN

Photo location is actually on the southern, outward leg of the triangular circuit, on the D920, at Sauchay-le-Bas between Ancourt and Envermeu...

Screen-Shot-2019-04-26-at-23-09-31.png

DCN

#41 Tim Murray

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 06:48

The map of the 1906 Le Mans circuit in Mathieson’s Grand Prix Racing 1906 - 1914 shows several railway lines. The main line from Le Mans toward Paris via La Ferté-Bernard didn’t cross the circuit at any point.

The line from Mamers to St Calais (built around 1867) crossed the circuit twice, near Connerré and again close to St Calais.

Another line split from the Mamers-St Calais line near Thorigné-sur-Dué (within the circuit triangle) and crossed the circuit just north of Vibraye.

This site contains potted histories of the various train services in the area:

https://www.tourisme...CHURE_TRAIN.pdf

There was a line running from La Ferté-Bernard to Montmirail via Cherré, and I think this may be the line Chris has found the traces of in Cherré. However, this line didn’t open until March 1916.

So, as I see it, if the bridge in Doug’s photo is a railway bridge, there are only three possible locations for it: near Connerré, near Vibraye, or near St Calais. It can’t be Vibraye as here the circuit passed under the railway:

https://cdn.verbolia...ye-pont-cpa.jpg

I don’t think it can be the crossing near St Calais, as this would have been at the wooden road section built to bypass the town, so not a permanent structure.

This only leaves Connerré. If this was the place, I fear there can be no ‘Then and Now’ as the current bridge looks much more modern and there don’t seem to be any buildings in its vicinity. :well:

#42 Doug Nye

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 08:14

Returning to the Cherre bridge.

 

If you zoom in on the roundabout adjacent to the Leclerc supermarket as you enter La Ferte Bernard from St Calais / Vibraye there's a path ...There seems no reason for this section of path which now leads to a housing estate to exist unless it had a prior function eg railway

 

Looking north up the D1 the road rises as per DCN's picture.

 

I wonder if this could've been the place ?

 

Thanks Chris - certainly a possibility, though an extended railway route both east and west of that crossing would appear to have been utterly obliterated over the years, built upon and/or returned to agriculture, which is where one might expect further clear traces to remain.  Of course, however, that's what passing years can do.

 

We know from his work that Branger spent time during that 1906 Grand Prix around the start and paddock areas, and at Connerre.  I don't have firm evidence he got out as far as Cherre - beyond captioning in the Mathieson book.  But he had the two consecutive race days in which to wander.  My glass-plates include many of those which Mathieson saved and preserved. I raise my hat to him...a compelling source of fascination.

 

Aah nostalgia - The Real Thing.

 

DCN

 

PS - Re Baku GP practice just disrupted by loose drain covers on a public road circuit.  Shades of Montreal's Ile Notre Dame venue for that notorious Group C race. Way back before then - on these serious, pioneering road circuits pre-WW1, and despite a lap length of 40-60-plus miles - the organisers and local authorities seemed sufficiently aware, and sufficiently conscientious, to secure what in-road drain covers existed...   :rolleyes:


Edited by Doug Nye, 27 April 2019 - 08:15.


#43 Tim Murray

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 09:31

I’ve just had another look at Google Earth, and I now think there may have been two separate railway crossings of the circuit near Connerré.

033-B5048-0363-40-F0-A287-44-F393-BEDEC6

Look at the railway line running SW from the main station Connerré - Beillé. A line of trees curves gently away from the railway line heading towards Connerré. This looks to me suspiciously like the route of an old railway line. Following its probable route into Connerré, you end up on the Rue du Petit Train (another clue?) which passes under the circuit here:

4-F944-E7-E-EFEC-4874-8-D2-B-7-B9-AB9831

4764-D462-F101-461-D-B6-CF-258-A09462-A6

The main drawback to this theory is that, if this was once a railway line, it would have to have crossed the River Huisne, and there’s absolutely no trace of any bridge at the relevant location on Google Earth.

#44 Vitesse2

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 09:56

Rue du Petit Train in Connerré was apparently the route of a line from Mamers to St Calais:

 

Source: http://ruedupetittra...res-le_mans.htm

 

Scroll about half-way down for a photo.



#45 Vitesse2

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 10:07

1928 rail map of the Sarthe département:

 

VFIL_Sarthe_1928.jpg

 

Chemin de fer Mamers - Saint-Calais



#46 Catalina Park

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 10:35

I just searched Google Images for "Connerre bridge L'huisne" and found photos of the old railway bridge over the river.

72-CONNERRE-LHuisne-et-pont-du-chemin.jp

#47 Doug Nye

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 10:43

Oh that is brilliant...

 

I am pretty sure that the Petit Train location really IS the site of the bridge and trackside scene captured by Maurice-Louis all those long years ago. It's only 250 yards from where he took the elevated shot of the central Connerre street section shown in my post 30 above...

 

Wonderful Tim, and all others, thank you again.

 

Jules Barillier's Brasier accelerating - as we now know - away from Connerre - nothing to do with Cherre at all - on his way to finishing fourth overall.

 

GPL-2-BRANGER-1906-GP-de-l-ACF-BARILLIER

 

Despite the different focal length lens and shot-angle camouflaging the roadside building's roofline differences the other similarities in facade surely defy mere coincidence. 

 

DCN

 

Screen-Shot-2019-04-27-at-11-35-01.png


Edited by Doug Nye, 27 April 2019 - 11:42.


#48 Allan Lupton

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 11:17

I spent a few hours this morning coming to the same conclusion (based on the curved line of trees on the same formation as the railway shown on Mathieson's circuit map) but as I've forgotten how to post Google Streetview images I didn't report what I thought.

Many years ago, armed with Mathieson's Book, I went and looked at the 1908 GP circuit and somewhere I have "now" photos which match photos in the Book. On the same trip I looked at the 1914 Lyons circuit and the 1923 Tours circuit. Not as easy as Google Earth/Streetview bashing but quite satisfying at the time.

 


Edited by Allan Lupton, 27 April 2019 - 15:26.


#49 Michael Oliver

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 11:35

Just wanted to say that this is the kind of thread that TNF is all about, absolutely brilliant and fascinating to boot...

#50 Roger Clark

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 13:16

I spent a few hours this morning coming to the same conclusion (based on the curved line of trees on the same formation as the railway shown on Mathieson's circuit map) but as I've forgotten how to post Google Streetview images I didn't report what I thought.
Many years ago, armed with Mathieson's Book, I went and looked at the 1908 GP circuit and somewhere I have "now" photos which match photos in the Book. On the same trip I looked at the 1914 Lyons circuit and the 1923 Tours circuit. Not as easy as Google Earth/Streetview bashing but quite satisfying at the time.

Many years ago, members Barry Boor, kpy and I did something similar at Dieppe and posted the results here on TNF. The thread still exists but the website I used to host the pictures is long gone and the copy that I’m sure I kept is hiding somewhere. If I find them, or if somebody else kept a copy, I’ll rebuild the thread.

Edited by Roger Clark, 27 April 2019 - 13:16.