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Then and Now...


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#251 Vitesse2

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 21:10

Looking at the many pictures of F2Bs on Google, there doesn't seem to have been a standard method of identification markings at that point. So the absence of a letter isn't necessarily an indication of recent repairs. Some have a single letter on the fuselage or tail, but others have what are presumably individual squadron markings - vertical 'zebra stripes' on the fuselage, an ace of clubs on the tail, a thick black fuselage stripe with a letter on the tail, a number and a black diamond each side of the roundel ...

 

Even these 111 Squadron Hurricanes didn't have the familiar two letters/roundel/letter in 1937:

 

111-sq.jpg



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#252 Doug Nye

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 07:58

That certainly is quite a striking comparison over Fort Morbut.  

 

Mention of the RAF in such hotter climes between the World Wars reminds me of the splendidly upright old veteran who - during the Gulf Wars, and upon hearing President Bush blethering on about enforcing a 'No Fly Zone' in Iraq, wrote to 'The Daily Telegraph' to observe that from his experience at RAF Habbanya in the 1930s "...there were damned flies everywhere".  He then wished the Americans well in their efforts to remove them...

 

DCN



#253 Radoye

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 14:02

This might help:

 

https://www.rafweb.o...s/sqn_codes.htm

 

 

Squadron code letters were introduced in March/April 1939 as a means of identifying squadrons.  Three letters were used, two to denote the squadron and a third to denote the individual aircraft within the squadron.

 

So anything before this time would not be using the now familiar squadron letter codes.



#254 Odseybod

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 18:20

Fascinating pic of the Brisfit. Wonder why the chap in the gunner's position is sitting so high. Maybe a mechanic (your grandfather?) on an airtest, trying to monitor the engine gauges?

 

Anyway hope they both had their ball chitties (or was that in a different theatre?).



#255 Vitesse2

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 18:27

Anyway hope they both had their ball chitties (or was that in a different theatre?).

Heh. I have my father's goolie chit, SEAC issue, on silk, printed in about fifteen Indo-Chinese/Malay/Burmese/Thai languages. Not sure what the chance of finding a literate Cambodian jungle villager was though; helpfully it also has British and American flags on it!



#256 moffspeed

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 19:41

 

I never dreamed when I so idly launched this thread that it would ever attract sufficient interest to approach 200 posts.

 

Thanks also for showing so much appreciation of Branger's pre-WW1 photography.  

 

In response to such appreciation, here's a relatively high-res scan of one of his plates - one that is broken actually, but the partially retouched result here just shows how clever Photoshop can be... 

 

Carl Joerns - who finished 6th - in his Opel, 1908 Grand Prix de l'ACF, Dieppe.

 

GPL-CARL-JOERNS-OPEL-1908-GRAND-PRIX-DE-

 

Be our guest, just zoom in and enjoy...(but, seriously, don't try to market it).

 

(Maurice-Louis Branger/The GP Library Photo)

 

DCN

 

Interesting.

 

I have a large print of Leboucq in, or more correctly on, his Sizaire Naudin (complete with a very youthful and apprehensive-looking riding mechanic) at the same event. The angle of the photo is similar and the flamboyant Hattie Jacques character (apologies to all but the over 60s from the UK - Google her) 4th from the right is strangely familiar. So I'm guessing Branger was behind the lens. The print is currently hanging on a wall in Portugal and I am currently in Sussex so I'll post a photo next time I'm over there..

 

Incidentally...



#257 robert dick

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 11:47

Belgium, Dinant, 1912 - Conti tyre depot (AAZ, 1912):

aaz12a.jpg
 



#258 Geoff E

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 12:08

Belgium, Dinant, 1912 - Conti tyre depot (AAZ, 1912):

aaz12a.jpg
 

 

Tree growth prevents an exact comparison, but here's the hotel 

 

https://www.google.c...!7i13312!8i6656

 

https://www.google.c...!7i13312!8i6656


Edited by Geoff E, 31 May 2019 - 12:13.


#259 swintex

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 19:25

Vitesse2, the serial number I was referring to should perhaps be better described as the "Aircraft number" more akin to a chassis number, as indicated in Radoye's very helpful link, (thanks, I've used rafweb.org extensively in my researches into grandad's picture collection, but not see that page before).
 
When I first read your (Vitesse2) post, I did wonder about that, as almost all the planes in grandad's pictures have their serial painted on the fuselage as well as the rudder. There's a better view in this

5707369607_08905326f7_z.jpg

picture of two F2B mkIIs on the ground with motors running. Incidentally, the machine in the background seems not to have a serial on the fuselage, I wonder if it is the same one as the aerial shot? The gunner looks to be rather more secure Tony!

 

Richard



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#260 Regazzoni

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 19:46

My last post on the subject of the Pescara circuit, unless something compelling comes up, hopefully with some interesting info in here.

 

One of the reasons the race was important, is that it put on the map a city that when it was first run did not exist yet. Name and reputation of the race and the city grew up together. Pescara initially was only the part of town on the south of the river (the Aterno-Pescara), while the one on the north side, bigger, was called Castellammare Adriatico (denomination now completely disappeared locally, not even a borough; I became aware of that name quite late). The two towns were unified on 2 January 1927 by royal decree to give Pescara as it is now known. What was Castellammare provided the current city centre, with the station, Piazza Salotto etc. The name Pescara prevailed as it was favoured by D’Annunzio, who was born south of the river… As the race never crossed the river [I was wrong in one of my previous posts, the race never went on the Tiburtina, which is located past the river; the Mille Miglia did], Enzo Ferrari won the first edition in 1924 in Castellammare Adriatico, not properly Pescara.

 

Guy Moll

 

I don’t have available at the moment a “then” picture, if not this one, a Franco Zagari one published on Rombo and taken on the flying kilometre

Moll-Rombo.jpg

And this, supposedly showing Henne followed by Moll, right before they got into the fatal straight, which would show they were running very close indeed at that point

Curva-di-Cappelle-Guy-Moll-qualche-curva

and this is the location, today, where Moll fatal accident took place on Ferragosto day in 1934, at the junction between Via Vestina and Via Danubio (which street I doubt existed at the time):

http://www.inabruzzo.com/?p=118954

Moll1.jpgThe cars came towards the camera in this picture, along the SS16bis:

Via-Danubio-1.jpg

This is towards the sea, in the race direction:

Via-Vestina-1.jpg

That is all modern urbanization, I suspect at the time houses were much sparser, if non-existent at all. It was reported the car careened on to the wall of a “casa cantoniera” (road maintenance building), which makes sense, probably the only building in the zone at the time, except few houses at Villa Carmine, one kilometre before. At Villa Carmine, part of Montesilvano, there is a Piazza and a Parco Guy Moll.

 

This location is about 1.9 km before the curve into the Adriatica, this stretch was the so called chilometro lanciato, the flying kilometre, where they took times and speed. The record was held by Fangio on the Alfetta in the 1950 edition, clocked at 310 km/h.

 

The cause of the accident was never clear, reports on La Stampa and Il Littoriale suggest Moll lost control of the car for some unknown reason, right in the place of top speed, while dealing with the lapping of Henne. Il Littoriale reported that both drivers were clocked at 12 seconds and 2/5, which equates at 290 km/h exactly over 1000 metres (I am assuming, it is not specified on which length those 12 seconds were clocked).

 

In a couple of columns on Autosprint, Franco Gozzi related several theories, as told to him by people who were there that day – Enzo Ferrari, Nello Ugolini, Brivio, Guidotti – but in the end not conclusive and not reliable for some unresolved contradictions.  He says it was ascertained – “questo e’ dunque accertato” - Moll and Henne had a contact. It doesn’t seem that was ever ascertained beyond doubt. I think it is fair to say Moll lost control while dealing with the other car, that is expected and reasonable (otherwise he could have lost control in any previous lap, not when dealing with another car running at the same speed). Precisely how, we’ll never know. Henne, who lived to old age, obviously always denied any involvement or responsibility.

 

This is Moll at the hairpin of Cappelle, with the P3 n. 46:

Guy-Moll-Pescara.png

gm-ca34.jpg

Targa-Moll.jpg


Edited by Regazzoni, 02 June 2019 - 17:28.


#261 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 23:12

This should be Caratsch on the Montenero, going out of Livorno town centre towards Antignano, Coppa Ciano 1938:

Caracciola-Coppa-Ciano-1938-Livorno.jpg

This is the place today, the same buildings:

Livo.jpg

Looking at these pictures, monsters of 400+ hp, on narrow wheels with positive camber, racing on everyday streets without any protection, makes me realize how much high maintenance the sport is these days. I don't pretend the drivers to be suicidal, of course, but while the skill required to go quicker than anybody else is always the same, it's an altogether different sport wrt that in these pics, completely emasculated.

Just rally drivers now with 500+hp monsters. Though all the crash protection of modern cars ofcourse.



#262 Regazzoni

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 17:50

Italian Gp 1947, Milan. This is Piazzale Damiano Chiesa, Trossi leading Varzi, the cars going back down towards Via Alcuino. Look at the building in the background on the right:

Piazzale-Damiano-Chiesa.jpg

A shot like that across the piazza is not possible today, because the middle of the piazza and all around is full of overgrown trees, but this is the 3D perspective today, the building is the one top right, '20s-'30s building, while the red one on the top left is more "Economic Miracle" sort of architecture, '50s-'60s, therefore not yet there in September 1947:

damiano-chiesa.jpg

This is the original building, still there, seen from the east side of the piazza:

damiano-chiesa-1.jpg

Usual disclaimer, all photos from the internet, just a fair research use intended, I suppose.

The old photo is included in the Silva's book, "Back on track".

 

EDIT: This is where the cars were in the "Then" photo above, the same perspective:

Alcuino.jpg


Edited by Regazzoni, 02 June 2019 - 18:31.


#263 Regazzoni

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 23:25

Another photo from "Back on track".

 

Mar del Plata, January 1948, Enrico Plate ahead of Jean Pierre Wimille. This place was called "Playa de los Ingleses", beach of the English. Note the characteristic Hotel Bella Vista bridging over the road.

Mar-del-Plata.jpg

These pictures are from the '60s and '70s:

CMNbb-YHWUAEd5-Kv-png-large.png

D10-DDa-OWw-Acyzbw-jpg-large.jpg

This is today, the beach is now called "Playa Varese", from the name of the owner, Luigi (Luis) Varese, of a big hotel.

The Hotel Bella Vista and the houses on the lower road have been demolished around 1977, after the military coup, when this stretch of coast became requirement of the Navy base. Now it is a major tourist resort.

mar-del-1.jpg

Fascinating place.



#264 Tomas Karlsson

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 20:49

 

 

But here's something of a puzzle - Philipsons Automobil AB is still listed in Sankt Eriksgatan, Stockholm, Sweden - importing Mercedes-Benz vehicles.  See, perhaps, if you can find their building - and also identify this car and driver...?

 

GPL-SCENE-AT-PHILIPSONS-AUTOMOBIL-AB-STO

 

 

DCN

 

This is one of the cars Philipsson built for the Rämen races. This is a 1932 car, a Chrysler special based on a Chrysler Imperial, with a 6,3 litre eight under the hood. It looks like Anders Olsson's car, but I don't think it's him in the car. The Rämen-races were invented as a way to help the automobile sales and there were several "factory"-teams.



#265 wolf sun

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Posted 07 June 2019 - 07:20

Brilliant thread, please keep going, gents (and ladies)!👍

#266 Regazzoni

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Posted 07 June 2019 - 22:57

This is a minor race, June 1961, F. Junior, Circuito del Castello, Teramo. This was the last time the race was organized.

Quite local for me, know the town well. The location is Piazza Garibaldi, where the start took place, going into Viale Bovio.

Jo Siffert won the final in his privately-entered Lotus 20. I am not knowledgeable about the period and cars, but I can't see Siffert in this photo and can't recognize anybody.
I suppose this is the start of the first heat, won by Chris Andrews on a Cooper T56, who perhaps is the n.27, on the right.
Unfortunately, no starting numbers provided here: http://www.the-fastl...a2/FJ61_E26.htm

Ken Tyrrell was there too, with John Love and Ian Raby as drivers. They moved to Caserta the following weekend, where Love won. Wasn't aware Tyrrell came to Teramo once.

The photo is from Berardo Taraschi's archive, well-known local driver and constructor.

renatopirocchi23.jpg

This is Piazza Garibaldi today, in the same perspective, with Google's usual wide angle lens.

teramo.jpg


Edited by Regazzoni, 07 June 2019 - 23:21.


#267 robert dick

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:06

Saint Martin hairpin, Boulogne-sur-Mer:

Philippe de Marne/3-litre Grégroire/June 1911/Coupe de L'Auto (Bibliothèque Nationale/Paris):

boulogne1.jpg


Georges Casse/1,1-litre Salmson/September 1927 - a memorial had been built by the end of WWI:

boulogne2.jpg


Today (from La Voix du Nord):

boulogne3.jpg
 



#268 absinthedude

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 11:30

I've discovered this thread today and am really loving the "then and now" photos. Makes me want to visit some of the locations.



#269 Ray Bell

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 15:58

An absolutely worthwhile pursuit...

Whenever you take a trip, look up what circuits might have been run on public roads along your path and have a look at them. Sometimes it will delight you, sometimes it will absolutely amaze you.

The raw bitumen is never quite like you'd imagined when you saw photos of the place. Going up the hill from the hairpin at Rouen is a perfect example of that.

#270 Regazzoni

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 18:28

Talking about Reims.

Caracciola-Reims-1939-1.jpg

Gueux1.jpg

Caracciola-Reims-1939.jpg

Gueux.jpg



#271 Sterzo

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 13:14

Talking about Reims.

Caracciola-Reims-1939-1.jpg

 

 

 

Thank you, Regazzoni. This is, I think, one of the noisiest pictures I have ever seen.



#272 Eric Dunsdon

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 16:48

Wait until I post my BRM V16 snaps!. :lol:.



#273 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 21:52

Don't keep us waiting long...

At Albi, I hope.

#274 robert dick

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 10:48

Alternative to the screaming silver arrows:
Giosué Giuppone and his Lion-Peugeot in the Saint Martin hairpin, Boulogne-sur-Mer, June 1909.
Giuppone's voiturette racer was powered by a 2-litre long-stroke single, 100 x 250 mm, three intake and three exhaust valves, three spark plugs - meaning a first ignition when entering the hairpin and placing the voiturette, a second ignition in order to initiate oversteering at the apex, and a third ignition when opening the throttle for the straightaway.
(Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris)

giup09.jpg
 



#275 Vitesse2

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 11:17

Not easy to match that one! The original photographer seems to have been standing on what is now a car park. The line of the road round the churchyard has also changed slightly and is less of a hairpin. The church tower has lost its four spires as well!

 

screenshot-www-google-com-2019-06-15-12-



#276 kayemod

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 11:52

Not easy to match that one! The original photographer seems to have been standing on what is now a car park. The line of the road round the churchyard has also changed slightly and is less of a hairpin. The church tower has lost its four spires as well!

 

 

 

While you were fiddling away on Google Earth, I was still trying to work out that car's strange engine...



#277 Michael Ferner

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 12:23

Giuppone, you're sure? I always thought it was Guippone... :confused:


Oh, and the accent is a grave one, Giosuè, that much I'm sure!



Else, just a word of encouragement, since I enjoy this thread VERY, VERY much!!

Edited by Michael Ferner, 15 June 2019 - 12:30.


#278 ReWind

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 12:41

Maybe not the ultimate proof but...

http://racingmemo.fr...E 1895-1911.htm (scroll down to 1910)



#279 nexfast

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 12:46

Definitely Giuppone - see below. The writer in Motorsport Memorial had access to the death certificate and there is also  a photo of the inscription in his memorial monument in Boulogne-sue-Mer

 

 

http://www.motorspor...php?db=ms&n=789



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#280 nexfast

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 12:52

And also here, a scan from a contemporary source.

 

 

http://cpascans.cana...8/19092343.html



#281 Tim Murray

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 14:06

See also the discussion in this earlier thread, which found that, although there are relatively few people in Italy named Giuppone (mainly from Piemonte, as was Giosuè), there are none named Guippone:

Bouillon or Boullion?

#282 robert dick

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 16:37

Concerning Giuppone:
I took over Giosué from the memorial at Wirwignes.
Giosué, with "accent aigu", is the French spelling; Giosuè, with "accent grave", the Italian spelling.

From La Stampa Sportiva, September 1910 - spelling = Giosuè Giuppone:

giup10d.jpg

Giuppone memorial at Wirwignes, between Desvres and Boulogne-sur-Mer - spelling = Giosué Giuppone
(Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris - photo dated 24 June 1911):

giup10.jpg
giup10c.jpg

The memorial today (Rue de Desvres, Wirwignes) - (from motorsportmemorial.org/link above; and Google Earth/memorial is on the left):

giup10b.jpg
giup10e.jpg
 



#283 Michael Ferner

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 18:03

Many thanks for all the replies concerning Guippone/Giuppone!

It was so convincing, that I immediately opened my data base for pre-WW1 race results, intent on changing all entries for Guippone, only to find that I had already done so!!

Ah, the bliss of increasing age :smoking: Now, what was it that I wanted to do after checking TNF one more time before switching off... :confused:

#284 robert dick

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 07:30

Concerning the 2-litre single of the 1909 Lion-Peugeot - three horizontal intake and three horizontal exhaust valves; three spark plugs in the head.
The engine was also used in powerboats.
(from Allgemeine Automobil-Zeitung, Vienna 1909)

lion09b.jpg
lion09a.jpg
 



#285 Doug Nye

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 07:48

I have always wondered how these single- and twin-cylinder long-stroke Lion-Peugeot engines must have sounded...?

 

DCN



#286 Allan Lupton

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 09:19

Here, from another thread, is the overhead exhaust version of the Lion Peugeot:

VtwinatBrooklands.jpg

 

and one might quote the Bernard Miles record "Mind yer 'eads, the beams is very, very low . . . "



#287 Regazzoni

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 10:16

As a Sunday intermezzo, the Self Preservation Society.

IJ-orig.jpg

This is the SP50 del Colle del Nivolet (Strada Provinciale, Turin province), a cul-de-sac in the Graian Alps (Alpi Graie). The writing on the rock wall, "Citta' di Torino AEM", relates to the "Azienda Energetica Metropolitana" of the city of Turin, municipal energy company, which now has changed name; there are a couple of artificial lakes there, presumably with hydroelectric power plants feeding the city and the region.

IJ-2.jpg

IJ-3.jpg



#288 kayemod

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 10:23

I've had some experience of single cylinder steam engines, which being non-directional, sometimes had problems with starting and reversing, both were largely a matter of luck. The answer to this was to use what we called a "kicker" that nudges the flywheel to start it in the required direction. Would a unit like the Lion-Peugeot have needed anything like this, or was nudging the thing to assist it along, part of the riding mechanic's job?



#289 Roger Clark

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 11:52

I have always wondered how these single- and twin-cylinder long-stroke Lion-Peugeot engines must have sounded...?

DCN

That would probably depend on whether it happened to be on a power stroke as it passed you.

#290 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 13:49

Ah, such a wonderful scene from The Italian Job...

And with that overhead exhaust, is this the greatest display ever of eschewing safety? The helmets seem at least a trifle underweight for the job, and burns on escaping a wreck would be a foregone conclusion.

#291 Odseybod

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 21:12


And with that overhead exhaust, is this the greatest display ever of eschewing safety? The helmets seem at least a trifle underweight for the job, and burns on escaping a wreck would be a foregone conclusion.

 

And no doubt there's a handily placed leaky fuel tank in the scuttle, ready to join in any inverted excitement.



#292 robert dick

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 15:05

Giuppone addition - by "Mich" (= Jean-Marie Michel Liebeaux), dated 1908:

mich08.jpg
 



#293 bike13

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 15:28

Easter boredom led to this, trying to fix the location of a Branger glass-plate photograph taken at the Rambouillet voiturette race in 1907.  I have great reservations about the Google empire, but Google Earth is simply wonderful and its Street View facility magnificent...  I hope this constitutes fair and reasonable use of their system's imagery...

 

1 - Delage driver Menard acknowledging a bystander during the 1907 Coupe des Voiturettes race at Rambouillet - but where on that 21-mile circuit? (GPL Branger Photo)

 

GPL-MENARD-DELAGE-1907-COUPE-DES-VOITURE

 

2 - Here's the answer.  Like the match?  The location is on the D988 in St Arnoult-en-Yvelines, Ile de France.  It is quite remarkable how little has changed between Banger's photography, 1907 - and the Google car's mobile imagery, 2018.

 

Screen-Shot-2019-04-21-at-13-04-41.png

 

3 - I then thought I'd have a go at a longer course, so tackled the Auvergne circuit as used for the 1905 Coupe Gordon Bennett race.  It's only 85 miles per lap. I had this Branger photo so set out to match it. I cheated, of course - checked where the controles de passage were located, and then hunted them out.  This is Duray's de Dietrich in the Rochefort-Montagne control... which was sited where, exactly? (GPL Branger Photo)

 

GPL-BRANGER-DURAY-DIETRICH-AT-ROCHEFORT-

 

4 - Another good match - note the building with the curious curved line to its roof eaves on the left... The location is adjacent to No 14 Route de Clermont, Rochefort-Montagne, Puy de Dome, France.

 

Screen-Shot-2019-04-21-at-21-47-56.png

 

Well...114 years later, it kept me amused...

 

Archive Photos: The GP Library

 

DCN

 

love all of these comparison photos.  Thanks to all who take the time to post.



#294 Regazzoni

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 16:02

Reims 1956. Collins, Castellotti, Fangio, Behra, Schell, Moss.

Reims-1956.jpg

Today. Almost a haunting place, knowing it will never be used again.

Reims-2018.jpg



#295 Regazzoni

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 16:29

GP de Bruxelles 1962, Heysel Park. Mairesse and Moss.

Heysel-3.jpg

Heysel-1.jpg

Today.

Heysel.jpg



#296 Regazzoni

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Posted 27 June 2019 - 18:18

Thanks to Ozpata for posting the circuit map, finally I could locate this one, which I was looking for a while without a track layout.

 

Eddie Hertzberger on the MG at the 1935 Circuit d'Orleans.

MG-1935.jpg

Today:

orleans.jpg



#297 ozpata

ozpata
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Posted 21 July 2019 - 20:48

Reims 1932

1932_f10.jpg

reims310.png



#298 ozpata

ozpata
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Posted 21 July 2019 - 21:02

Thank you, Regazzoni. This is, I think, one of the noisiest pictures I have ever seen.

caracc10.jpg

 

 

reims311.png

 

 

amazing that even that wall or fence still looks the same


Edited by ozpata, 21 July 2019 - 21:04.


#299 ozpata

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Posted 23 July 2019 - 11:52

1928 RAC Tourist Trophy.   Ards, Northern Ireland, Great Britain. 8th August 1928
 
Newtownards
7793210.jpg
newtow10.png


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#300 ozpata

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Posted 23 July 2019 - 23:49

Boavista 1958
 
porto_10.jpg
 
porto_12.png


Edited by ozpata, 23 July 2019 - 23:51.