Jump to content


Photo

Then and Now...


  • Please log in to reply
397 replies to this topic

#301 ozpata

ozpata
  • Member

  • 378 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 24 July 2019 - 01:09

1960 Syracuse

 

1960_010.jpg

 

siracu10.png



Advertisement

#302 ozpata

ozpata
  • Member

  • 378 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 25 July 2019 - 11:09

Douglas Isle of Man 1934 and 1935

 

dougla11.jpgdougla12.png

 

dougla10.jpgdougla11.png



#303 ozpata

ozpata
  • Member

  • 378 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 26 July 2019 - 11:24

St Helier, Jersey 1949 and 1950

st_hel10.jpg

stheli10.png

 

 

stheli10.jpg

 

stheli11.png



#304 Rob Ryder

Rob Ryder
  • Member

  • 2,431 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 26 July 2019 - 14:12

Why can't I see any of the .png files from ozpata ? :confused:
 
His .jpg files appear OK ...


Edited by Rob Ryder, 26 July 2019 - 14:15.


#305 Sterzo

Sterzo
  • Member

  • 1,396 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 26 July 2019 - 19:37

Why can't I see any of the .png files from ozpata ? :confused:
 
His .jpg files appear OK ...

Is your browser IE11 by any chance?



#306 Rob Ryder

Rob Ryder
  • Member

  • 2,431 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 26 July 2019 - 20:00

:blush:  :blush: Yep... I know I am out of date, but I am in the correct forum :lol:  :lol:

 

Tried Chrome and they appear no problems.

 

Thanks


Edited by Rob Ryder, 26 July 2019 - 20:01.


#307 Regazzoni

Regazzoni
  • Member

  • 2,165 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 26 July 2019 - 20:40

Livorno (or Leghorn) 1937, the Italian GP. At the bottom of the narrow via dei Bagni in Antignano seen earlier in the thread.

 

Muller, Nivola and, allegedly, Richard Seaman:

Hermann-Muller-Nuvolari-Seaman.jpg

Guidotti:

Guidotti.jpg

Hermann Lang:

Hermann-Lang-Montenero-1937.jpg

Today

antignano.jpg



#308 Regazzoni

Regazzoni
  • Member

  • 2,165 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 26 July 2019 - 21:02

Livorno 1937, curva della rotonda, leading into via Pacinotti. The "rotonda" is the circular (in plan) small wood on the left.

Characteristic the Stile Libery (Art Nouveau) villa in the middle of the curve, with the gazebo still there. The house is worth a few bob, no doubt.

 

Von Brauchitsch in practice, wet track:

1937-Von-Brauchitisch.jpg

Looks like after the start, Nivola behind Lang:

1937-foto-A034.jpg

Guidotti behind Belmondo and Kautz:

1937-foto-A035.jpg

The winner Caracciola, always stylish:

1937-Caracciola-leading-and-Lang.jpg

A postcard in period:

Ardenza-Cartolina.jpg

Today:

Livorno-Curva-della-Rotonda1.jpg

Livorno-Curva-della-Rotonda.jpg



#309 richardspringett

richardspringett
  • Member

  • 189 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 26 July 2019 - 21:42

Hi all

 

May I just express my extreme thanks for this thread....

 

The idea of revisiting the old with the new has always fascinated me, so to see evocative locations recreated in an historical motoring context is just wonderful...

 

thanks to all and may the posts continue.

 

Richard



#310 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 9,885 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 26 July 2019 - 23:15

As a matter of interest these pics have reminded me that the rear engine revolution started long before Chapman with those Auto Unions.

As well as how much Google Earth makes all of this so easy to do.


Edited by Lee Nicolle, 26 July 2019 - 23:17.


#311 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 4,783 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 27 July 2019 - 06:40


antignano.jpg

 

You neglected to name the driver of this Mercedes-Benz - is it Max Mustermann, or Numerio Negidio?

 

Also, why is the car white? Was it before the Eifelrennen?  :cat:



#312 GTMRacer

GTMRacer
  • Member

  • 80 posts
  • Joined: October 16

Posted 27 July 2019 - 07:07

As a matter of interest these pics have reminded me that the rear engine revolution started long before Chapman with those Auto Unions.
As well as how much Google Earth makes all of this so easy to do.


Chapman? I shall get it out the way now, any rear engine revolution should really be attributed to Cooper not Lotus.

#313 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 4,783 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 27 July 2019 - 07:35

I beg to differ. Rear-engined Coopers 'grew' into being Grand Prix cars by accident; when faced with the task of building a 'Big car' from scratch Cooper put the engine in front. It was Chapman who realized the future of Grand Prix racing when he built the '18'!



#314 Odseybod

Odseybod
  • Member

  • 1,424 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 27 July 2019 - 09:23


 

Also, why is the car white? Was it before the Eifelrennen?  :cat:

 

 

As it happens, the Mercedes cars in tomorrow's German GP have adopted an historic white paint job, with the usual silver showing through towards the back of the car, almost as if the white paint has been removed for lightness.

 

I've been very surprised by the lack of chuntering on here about this - so far ...



#315 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 4,783 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 27 July 2019 - 09:32

Oh, there is... https://forums.autos...ping/?p=8829862 You just have to look in the right places.   ;) 



#316 ozpata

ozpata
  • Member

  • 378 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 27 July 2019 - 10:59

Lyon 1924

lyon1910.jpg

lyon2410.png

 

 

 

Pedralbes 1951

pedral10.jpg

pedral10.png



#317 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 4,783 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 27 July 2019 - 11:17



 

lyon2410.png

 

 

 

 

"Les Sept Chemins in the process of reconstruction work, devised by Hermann Tilke..."   :cry:


Edited by Michael Ferner, 27 July 2019 - 11:17.


#318 Regazzoni

Regazzoni
  • Member

  • 2,165 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 27 July 2019 - 15:31

Bucolic. It doesn't come more nostalgic than this:

Eau-Rouge.jpg



#319 bradbury west

bradbury west
  • Member

  • 5,696 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 27 July 2019 - 17:43

Hi all
 
May I just express my extreme thanks for this thread....
 
The idea of revisiting the old with the new has always fascinated me, so to see evocative locations recreated in an historical motoring context is just wonderful...
 
thanks to all and may the posts continue.
 
Richard


I agree totally, a wonderful thread, and with so many original pictures in a good size of resolution.
Many thanks to all
Roger Lund

Advertisement

#320 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 16,962 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 27 July 2019 - 19:54

Bucolic. It doesn't come more nostalgic than this:

Eau-Rouge.jpg

We have a winner!   First prize for the best Then and Now goes to Regazzoni!

 

Amazing how that half-timbered house has survived to still stand in the modern day paddock.



#321 Sterzo

Sterzo
  • Member

  • 1,396 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 28 July 2019 - 13:21

Fantastic picture. Do you know its date, Regazzoni? And did the circuit originally bear left to pass close to the house, or is there another road we can't see - I was expecting something like a hairpin there. Admittedly my source is an incomplete track map in "Motor Racing Circuits of Europe" by Klemantaski and Frostik. (Happy Xmas from Mummy and Daddy 1958).



#322 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 65,908 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 28 July 2019 - 13:42

This is a section of a topo map I photographed in the Malmedy museum:

0719eaurougemap.jpg

#323 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 34,199 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 28 July 2019 - 13:44

Fantastic picture. Do you know its date, Regazzoni? And did the circuit originally bear left to pass close to the house, or is there another road we can't see - I was expecting something like a hairpin there. Admittedly my source is an incomplete track map in "Motor Racing Circuits of Europe" by Klemantaski and Frostik. (Happy Xmas from Mummy and Daddy 1958).

Golden Era has a track map showing both pre-WW2 layouts. Pre-1939 it went round the curve past the house. The older picture also shows the junction heading towards Ancienne Douanne.

 

http://www.kolumbus....snellman/t6.htm



#324 Regazzoni

Regazzoni
  • Member

  • 2,165 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 28 July 2019 - 17:08

Fantastic picture. Do you know its date, Regazzoni? And did the circuit originally bear left to pass close to the house, or is there another road we can't see - I was expecting something like a hairpin there. Admittedly my source is an incomplete track map in "Motor Racing Circuits of Europe" by Klemantaski and Frostik. (Happy Xmas from Mummy and Daddy 1958).

I am afraid I don't, but it looks before or around the '20s, by the look of that car in the picture. I came across that while researching La Source corner through the years [next post].

The picture above looked artificially coloured, I think this is more like the original:

panoeaurouge.jpg

This view is 1934, Chiron leading eventual winner Dreyfus down the Eau Rouge:

1934-Dreyfus.jpg

This is another postcard with the same view, looks around the '60s:

francorchamps-vue-sur-le-circuit.jpg

The view in this postcard should be looked with Ray's map above. No Raidillon, it goes around the old German customs. Note the lack of woods along the Kemmel:

Panorama-postcard.jpg

This is the best 3D shot I could get of the previous picture, as it is today, much more forested:

Spa-Panorama.jpg



#325 Regazzoni

Regazzoni
  • Member

  • 2,165 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 28 July 2019 - 17:38

La Source. Interesting to see how this curve has evolved, mainly due to the requirement to have start and pitlane not on a slope, as they were earlier after the curve.

 

This is the oldest I could find, the "carrefour" between the roads from Malmedy and Stavelot:

Carrefour.jpg

This Tazio in the late '30s, perhaps 1939 (or not too far off):

Nivola-Source.jpg

This is Seaman, on that 1939 fateful day. The corner seems exactly the same as in the Nuvolari photo.

Seaman-Source.jpg

De Graffenried 1953:

1953-de-Graffenried.jpg

Moss 1956:

Moss-1956.jpg

Brabham 1960 and 1961:

jack-1960-first.jpg

Jack-1961.jpg

The Chaparral in the '60s:

Chaparral-Spa.jpg

Today (2017):

Source-today.jpg

This seems a virtual reality view of the current situation [there is no google street view at the location]:

iracing-spa-3.jpg

I very much prefer when the pits were on the downhill side.



#326 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 21,900 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 28 July 2019 - 18:08

I believe the photo captioned as de Graffenried 1953 is actually Eugenio Castellotti in 1955.

#327 Regazzoni

Regazzoni
  • Member

  • 2,165 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 28 July 2019 - 18:15

Difficult to exchange a Maserati A6GCM for a Lancia D50.  :blush:  It should be the 1955 GP.



#328 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 34,199 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 28 July 2019 - 18:26

The photo of Tazio is definitely 1939 - the extra sign pointing to 'Liège 1939' will be to direct people to the Exposition internationale de la technique de l'eau de 1939, which opened on May 20th. So presumably a pre-race reconnaissance of the newly-altered course. The exhibition site was also the start and finish point of the 1939 Liège-Rome-Liège and the cancelled Grand Prix de l'Exposition sports car race - due tio take place on August 27th - would have been run on a section of recently-completed dual carriageway on the opposite bank of the Meuse.



#329 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 4,783 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 28 July 2019 - 19:57



Golden Era has a track map showing both pre-WW2 layouts. Pre-1939 it went round the curve past the house. The older picture also shows the junction heading towards Ancienne Douanne.

 

http://www.kolumbus....snellman/t6.htm

 

This didn't sound right, and the 1934 picture shows it isn't. Leif's site shows a slight change in lap distance of 50 metres before the 1934 event, could this have been the new piece of road bypassing the hamlet?



#330 elansprint72

elansprint72
  • Member

  • 3,852 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 28 July 2019 - 21:25

Lyon 1924

lyon1910.jpg

lyon2410.png

 

 

 

Pedralbes 1951

pedral10.jpg

pedral10.png

Those must be the world's slowest-growing trees! From where do they get any moisture?



#331 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 9,885 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 29 July 2019 - 01:33

La Source. Interesting to see how this curve has evolved, mainly due to the requirement to have start and pitlane not on a slope, as they were earlier after the curve.

 

This is the oldest I could find, the "carrefour" between the roads from Malmedy and Stavelot:

Carrefour.jpg

This Tazio in the late '30s, perhaps 1939 (or not too far off):

Nivola-Source.jpg

This is Seaman, on that 1939 fateful day. The corner seems exactly the same as in the Nuvolari photo.

Seaman-Source.jpg

De Graffenried 1953:

1953-de-Graffenried.jpg

Moss 1956:

Moss-1956.jpg

Brabham 1960 and 1961:

jack-1960-first.jpg

Jack-1961.jpg

The Chaparral in the '60s:

Chaparral-Spa.jpg

Today (2017):

Source-today.jpg

This seems a virtual reality view of the current situation [there is no google street view at the location]:

iracing-spa-3.jpg

I very much prefer when the pits were on the downhill side.

Check out the Walker Scotch sign with the Chaparal.



#332 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 65,908 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 29 July 2019 - 02:21

No Google Street View as it's no longer a public road...

Or at least it's no longer accessible by normal traffic. Street View ends at a roundabout just up the road.

The parts of the old circuit no longer used are on Street View.

#333 Cavalier53

Cavalier53
  • Member

  • 291 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 30 July 2019 - 20:11

The La Source hairpin pictures made me look up my cherished Delsaux Francorchamps 1948-1960. Some highlights:

- in 1948 (24h) the road signs show 9k to Malmedy, 8k to Stavelot

- a 1949 24h picture shows some kind of monument on the inside of La Source, but no road signs

- 1950 GP, again part of a monument but no apparent road signs

- 1952 GP: Behra' Gordini passes the Jules de Thier memorial leading the race. Google tells me De Thier was one of the founding fathers of the Francorchamps-Malmedy-Stavelot triangle in the roaring 20's, and wrote about Liege in the Great War (WW1 for youngsters like me)

- GP 1954: the distances are a-changing:  a road sign now gives just 7 km to Stavelot, whereas Malmedy is still in the same place 9 km away.

- 1956: Production car GP: it seems the memorial has disappeared

- 1958 Grand Prix for Sportscars: Gregory chasing Scott-Brown into La Source, completely devoid of any road signs or monuments, as does the picture of the disaster shortly afterwards.

 

Wasn't there a dedicated thread about changes to the Francorchamps track, such as straightening the Kemmel straight?

 

Anyway, where/why did the De Thiers Memorial end up? I didn't notice it earlier this year in the cellars of the Stavelot Abbey.



#334 ozpata

ozpata
  • Member

  • 378 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 30 July 2019 - 21:09

Syracuse 1960

1960_011.jpg

syr10.png



#335 ozpata

ozpata
  • Member

  • 378 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 30 July 2019 - 21:12

Dieppe 1906

dieppe10.jpg

dieppe11.jpg



#336 ozpata

ozpata
  • Member

  • 378 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 30 July 2019 - 21:17

here you can look at some wonderful pictures of yesterday and today of a few old circuits

https://forgottencir...fr/FC_gpacf.htm



#337 SamoanAttorney

SamoanAttorney
  • Member

  • 141 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 31 July 2019 - 09:49

The La Source hairpin pictures made me look up my cherished Delsaux Francorchamps 1948-1960. Some highlights:

- in 1948 (24h) the road signs show 9k to Malmedy, 8k to Stavelot

- a 1949 24h picture shows some kind of monument on the inside of La Source, but no road signs

- 1950 GP, again part of a monument but no apparent road signs

- 1952 GP: Behra' Gordini passes the Jules de Thier memorial leading the race. Google tells me De Thier was one of the founding fathers of the Francorchamps-Malmedy-Stavelot triangle in the roaring 20's, and wrote about Liege in the Great War (WW1 for youngsters like me)

- GP 1954: the distances are a-changing:  a road sign now gives just 7 km to Stavelot, whereas Malmedy is still in the same place 9 km away.

- 1956: Production car GP: it seems the memorial has disappeared

- 1958 Grand Prix for Sportscars: Gregory chasing Scott-Brown into La Source, completely devoid of any road signs or monuments, as does the picture of the disaster shortly afterwards.

 

Wasn't there a dedicated thread about changes to the Francorchamps track, such as straightening the Kemmel straight?

 

Anyway, where/why did the De Thiers Memorial end up? I didn't notice it earlier this year in the cellars of the Stavelot Abbey.

 

I think the de Thier memorial is now at the entrance to the Formula One pits, near the exit to the tunnel that come in from the last corner.



#338 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,132 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 31 July 2019 - 17:37

A Sizaire coming out of the Dieppe hairpin ("fourche" at Neuville-les-Dieppe), June 1912 - fortunately too slow for the dog:
neuville12.jpg
 



#339 Leif Snellman

Leif Snellman
  • Member

  • 1,105 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 05 August 2019 - 18:23

 

This didn't sound right, and the 1934 picture shows it isn't. Leif's site shows a slight change in lap distance of 50 metres before the 1934 event, could this have been the new piece of road bypassing the hamlet?

 

Wonderful Spa pictures!   :clap:  No Michael, that part of the road was straightened as early as 1925 . I have corrected the map, circuit lengths and text on my web site.



Advertisement

#340 Sebastian Tombs

Sebastian Tombs
  • Member

  • 2,066 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 06 August 2019 - 01:58

Great thread.  I've been doing this for some time mapping out the circuits then and now and drawing them on Google Earth with pictorial comparisons as the pics below show.  The Dieppe circuit map is one of Franck Rive's superb efforts (as mentioned by ozpata above) with photos added by myself as Franck's no longer seem to work.  It's time consuming but great fun.  One of these days I'll get around to doing .kmz zips and upload them so you can all drop them into your Google Earth and drive the circuits but that's a bit time consuming.  Currently doing Lasarte.  Here's a couple of Dieppe screenshots.

 

Mjt6yT3.jpg

 

hvvvjSU.jpg

 

 Then rather than now but you might find this vaguely interesting regarding Dieppe and the GP des Voiturettes 1908  http://online.flipht...com/cjazk/srks/

 

ST :wave:



#341 john medley

john medley
  • Member

  • 1,391 posts
  • Joined: November 02

Posted 06 August 2019 - 06:14

Thank you for the pics/maps, and the Colin Musgrove blog. Very interesting to me because I have been examining this event too. I suspect Robert Dick may also be interested. 



#342 Sebastian Tombs

Sebastian Tombs
  • Member

  • 2,066 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 06 August 2019 - 13:50

Thanks John.  Here's another...Ancourt Bridge.   

 

wTF6kns.jpg

 

ST :wave:



#343 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,132 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 06 August 2019 - 16:56

Dieppe had a magical atmosphere.

The bridge near Ancourt in 1912:
(from La Vie au Grand Air, 29 June 1912,
https://gallica.bnf....6k9605296d.item )

pontancourt.jpg
 



#344 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,132 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 06 August 2019 - 18:23

Typical atmosphere on the 6-kilometre straightaway between Dieppe hairpin and Ancourt bridge,
René Thomas/3-litre Peugeot and Paul Vonlatum/3-litre Vinot-Deguingand (photos Bibliothèque Nationale/Paris):
dieppe12a.jpg
dieppe12b.jpg

and Vonlatum oiling his plugs under the Ancourt bridge:
dieppe12c.jpg
 



#345 Sebastian Tombs

Sebastian Tombs
  • Member

  • 2,066 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 06 August 2019 - 19:24

Dieppe had a magical atmosphere.
 

 

It did Robert.  Here's one that had a more menacing reputation.  Pic 1925 GP do San Sebastian, #1 Divo (Delage), #5 Masetti (Sunbeam), #4 Gras (La Perle),

 

qLZbPkH.jpg

 

ST :wave:



#346 Sebastian Tombs

Sebastian Tombs
  • Member

  • 2,066 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 10 August 2019 - 02:31

Another quickie from my Lasarte project.  Hernani service bridge.  The large period pic is taken from the bridge and shows Chiron #20 in the Alfa Romeo Tipo-B P3 being borne down upon by a Merc and an Auto Union, 10th Gran Premio de España, 22 September 1935.  Chiron retired feeling unwell.  Imagine bladdering one of those Teutonic projectiles through that narrow bridge at 180mph+.

d0SLFW4.jpg

ST

:wave:



#347 Regazzoni

Regazzoni
  • Member

  • 2,165 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 10 August 2019 - 07:02

This picture allegedly shows Caracciola on the Lasarte in 1934. I haven't been able to find its location despite going around the (long) circuit. Maybe Sebastian Tombs can find it?

San-Sebastian-1934-Caracciola-GP-Spagna.



#348 Regazzoni

Regazzoni
  • Member

  • 2,165 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 10 August 2019 - 09:47

This is an artist impression of Nuvolari driving on the rim (right rear depicted, Snellman's website says it was the left rear...) at Zebetin, near Brno, in the 1937 Masaryk GP.

 

Besides which tyre Tazio actually lost, the problem with this picture is that it is taken in a place off the street they actually went in 1937, according to the circuit plans that can be found online. They allegedly went through there between 1949-1964, and clockwise, not anti-clockwise as before the war. Don't know whether this picture based on an actual photo taken during the race at the location, but I haven't found it. A bit of a question mark.

2079.jpg

zebetin.jpg



#349 ozpata

ozpata
  • Member

  • 378 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 10 August 2019 - 12:02

Circuit des Ardennes - Bastogne 1907

bastog10.jpg

bastog11.jpg



#350 Sebastian Tombs

Sebastian Tombs
  • Member

  • 2,066 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 10 August 2019 - 17:14

This picture allegedly shows Caracciola on the Lasarte in 1934. I haven't been able to find its location despite going around the (long) circuit. Maybe Sebastian Tombs can find it?

 

 

That's a great pic Rega.  I'll have a look, should be somewhat easier than the rural ones.  There are over 1000 circuit pics alone uploaded by https://www.guregipu...ASARTE&lang=eu

and other Basque cultural sites as well as a site dedicated to Pascual Marin who took a lot of them.  Most are taken around the start and finish unfortunately as it was nigh on impossible to move around with the roads closed also most of the towns and villages seem to have been flattened in re-development over the years.

 

ST :wave: