49 replies to this topic

[FirstnameLastname]

Reading today that Russel is unwell, and that the Williams reserve driver doesn’t have sufficient superlicense points to take part if required in an F1 weekend, which is a absurd situation.

It got me thinking, has there ever been a time that someone has been parachuted at short notice into an F1 team due to the regular drivers illness or suchlike, and made a success of it?

Villeneuve at Renault was a disaster, but when he had his ‘headache’ at BMW Sauber and Kubica jumped in and managed to impress at short notice.

Likewise Badoer when injured at Minardi, was replaced by Sarrazin for one race. He seemed a promising guy, had a huge crash during the race and was never seen of in F1 again. Badoer I’m sure finally got a Ferrari call-up at some point but failed to impress after years of testing for the team.

[ANF]

Alexander Wurz did a good job replacing Gerhard Berger for three races in 1997, didn't he? And also replacing Montoya at McLaren in 2005.

Edited by ANF, 25 April 2019 - 23:19.

[Spillage]

J-P Jarier drove for Lotus after Ronnie Peterson's tragic death at Monza in 1978. Despite the difficult circumstances, he took pole in Canada and dominated before an oil leak put him out with 20 laps to go. He's probably best remembered for being lambasted by James Hunt in the 1980s, which is a shame - he'd have been a multiple race winner with a bit more luck.

Otherwise, Nigel Mansell won the 1994 Australian GP as a semi stand-in, and more recently Mika Salo and Nick Heidfeld both took podiums as stand-in drivers (although Heidfeld actually started the season with Renault, so arguably he wasn't a stand-in at all).

Edited by Spillage, 25 April 2019 - 23:21.

[boomn]

Badoer I’m sure finally got a Ferrari call-up at some point but failed to impress after years of testing for the team.

"Failed to impress" is putting it lightly

 

I thought Paul di Resta did a really good job subbing at Williams in 2017 given all the circumstances and his time away F1.  Is he available this weekend?

[Frood]

Andre Lotterer was very quick (well, compared to Ericsson anyway) in the one race he did for Caterham. It was a shame he retired very early on in the race.

 

I seem to remember when Christian Klien reappeared randomly at HRT in 2010 that he looked very fast in comparison to Senna. Might be my imagination.

[ARTGP]

Surely they can just borrow Sirotkin for a weekend.  I'm sure that Renault won't forbid it in the name of comraderie when Williams is clearly down.

Edited by ARTGP, 25 April 2019 - 23:54.

[Myrvold]

Absurd, maybe - but it is worth noting, that while McLaren have Alosno in their roster - Sergio Sette Camara who is the more official "3rd" driver, doesn't qualify for a Super License. Neither does Oliver Turvey or Rudy Van Buren who on McLaren's "dev, test & reserve driver" tab on their webpage. Nyck de Vries does though.
HAAS have no reserve with a Super License. Pietro Fittipaldi doesn't qualify. Toro Rosso got no reserve, though Buemi the reserve for RB so would probably be put in as long as he is at the track.
Racing Point got no reserve at all.

Michael Schumacher would be a logic name here.

Roberto Moreno had some time (a week-ish) going from DNQ/DNPQ in 12 out of 14 races, and then sitting in a Benetton taking home 2nd place in his first event as a replacement.

Nicola Larini did quite well in his 2 race stint with Ferrari in 94. Curiously enough, I'd say that Andrea de Cesaris did well in his two Jordan races in 94 as well. Not nearly as good with the Sauber.

I also see Wurz 97 and 05 is mentioned. I'll say that Jarno Trulli in 97 was very good as well. Granted Nakano was closer to Trulli than he was to Panis, but both Nakano and Trulli were rookies. De la Rosa in 05 and 06 did quite a fine job as well. IIRC he still holds the official lap record of the current Bahrain GP track.
Gene wasn't awful in 03, neither was Sato either tbh. Timo Glock got 2 out of Jordans 5 points in 04 in his race debut (aided by 4 DSQ drivers - but he had to beat Heidfeld).

Mika Salo didn't exactly have a stellar start for Ferrari, but should've won in his second start if not for team-orders. However, he did quite a fine job in the BAR, and - helped by the poor reliability of the car that year, would've finished ahead of Villeneuve and Zonta in the standings even if he hadn't done any races for Ferrari, just from his three starts with BAR.

 

Though - the main difference is that this was with pretty much unlimited testing, won't be that easy today. However, I don't think anyone can fault Vandoornes debut in Bahrain, nor Buttons qual speed in Monaco.

[noikeee]

Vettel wasn't all that fast in the US 2007 GP for BMW, but became the youngest ever points scorer that race.

 

Salo in the 99 Ferrari was on course to win a race when he had to give it away to Irvine.

 

Mario Andretti was old as **** in 1982 but on a stand-in put his Ferrari immediately on pole.

 

But the greatest ever stand-in performance probably has to go to the bloke who stood-in for Bertrand Gachot in the 1991 Belgian GP - as Gachot had gotten himself kind of slightly jailed. This new bloke, all he did was just qualifying and then a couple hundred meters in the race, but he earned a contract with Benetton, a top 4 team, immediately. He'd go on to have a decent career, eventually vacating that one seat in the 99 Ferrari for Salo... 

[Tim Murray]

Patrick Tambay at Ferrari in 1982. Only Rosberg scored more points in the second half of that season.

[ElectricBoogie]

Schumacher would be a logic name here.

Mick, you mean...

[John B]

Patrick Tambay at Ferrari in 1982. Only Rosberg scored more points in the second half of that season.

Agreed...and that included missing a couple races himself because of neck issues IIRC.

One of many oddities of that year, Andretti filled in for both the WCC and WDC teams.

[prty]

Alexander Wurz did a good job replacing Gerhard Berger for three races in 1997, didn't he? And also replacing Montoya at McLaren in 2005.

That reminds me of de la Rosa, got a podium and a track record in Bahrain that still stands today.

[pitlanepalpatine]

Mick, you mean...

 

No he means Michael originally being a fill in at Jordan but that transition threw me for a second as well.

Edited by pitlanepalpatine, 26 April 2019 - 06:42.

[Lights]

Button stood in for Alonso at Monaco 2017 and presumably peed in his seat, so I think that can be classified as a success.

[ensign14]

Patrick Tambay at Ferrari in 1982. Only Rosberg scored more points in the second half of that season.

 

Given how mad that season was, it wouldn't have taken much to have made Tambay world champ - replacing Villeneuve instantly would have been a start.  But I think that's more testament to how good the Ferrari was.  Tambay was a bit of a Fisichella; brilliant as the underdog, but when put up against a master driver, somewhat lacking.

 

Surprised not to see a mention of Alesi yet.  Gave Tyrrell an Indian summer and turned the team into a race-winning candidate.  Such a shame they couldn't quite get that breakthrough.
 

[messy]

Salo. Came closer than anyone to scoring for BAR in '99 then two podiums in a Ferrari including one that he really should have won. 

 

He was inconsistent sure - only seemed competitive on the two low downforce circuits - but considering the circumstances he did well. 

Edited by messy, 26 April 2019 - 07:13.

[Nonesuch]

the Williams reserve driver doesn’t have sufficient superlicense points to take part

 

This is such a Williams thing.

 

Best mid-season stand-in drivers? Michael Schumacher (Jordan, 1991). Sebastian Vettel (BMW Sauber, 2007). Maybe not in their performance on the day, but it just goes to show some people get their breaks in unexpected ways.

 

Recently read a book about Tambay which makes me somewhat partial to his performance, as well. It's a good story. Classic Ferrari.

Edited by Nonesuch, 26 April 2019 - 07:20.

[Peat]

Ocon would surely replace Russell?

My favourite super sub is and will forever be ROBERTO MORENO

[sopa]

I'm not sure Salo's BAR stint was a success. Back then unreliability levels were high and BAR was utterly unreliable, but somehow Salo got to the finish. In Imola Villeneuve qualified 5th, while Salo was somewhere around 19th. Yet Salo finished 7th, because everyone in front of him had a DNF.

[PlatenGlass]

Alexander Wurz did a good job replacing Gerhard Berger for three races in 1997, didn't he? And also replacing Montoya at McLaren in 2005.

I seem to remember De La Rosa looking more impressive than Wurz at McLaren. Bahrain rings a bell with me.

I know he was in F1 anyway, but I was impressed with Herbert's one-off drive for Ligier in 1994 when he outqualified and finished ahead of Panis in the other car. Obviously the subsequent move to Benetton didn't quite work out though.

Also Verstappen won his first race for Red Bull after replacing Kvyat (though like Herbert he was in F1 anyway).

Edited by PlatenGlass, 26 April 2019 - 08:55.

[taran]

I think we are starting to compare apples with oranges. Suddenly being dropped in a car and performing well is different to doing a couple of races (or even a significant part of a season) and gradually doing better.

 

I'd argue that the best instant replacement drivers as in equal or better performance as the regular driver were Jarier 1978, Andretti 1982 and Verstappen 2016. 

[Touchdown]

That reminds me of de la Rosa, got a podium and a track record in Bahrain that still stands today.

He finished 5th actually - it was Wurz, in the following race, who finished on the podum while filling in for JPM.

[Risil]

Ocon would surely replace Russell?

My favourite super sub is and will forever be ROBERTO MORENO

 

IMHO Moreno spoiled it all by signing up for a full season in 2000 and proving to be really good at driving full-time as well. Now, Memo Gidley: no full seasons in Indycar to speak of, tick. Scored several podiums while the full-timers in his team struggled, tick. Lived in his car while driving in CART, tick. He finally made it as a Grand-Am driver of course.

 

Troy Bayliss coming back for a single MotoGP race at the end of 2006 and dominating the field was pretty special. 

[noikeee]

I think we are starting to compare apples with oranges. Suddenly being dropped in a car and performing well is different to doing a couple of races (or even a significant part of a season) and gradually doing better.

I'd argue that the best instant replacement drivers as in equal or better performance as the regular driver were Jarier 1978, Andretti 1982 and Verstappen 2016.

Also not sure if we consider "stand-in drivers", the ones who got a go because the main driver was sacked or it was planned to get the alternate driver a race anyway. I thought this was only about drivers who got injured and needed a temporary replacement.

If we include those that did a few races alternating with the main driver, Nigel Mansell was pretty good for Williams in 94 although not as great as he had been in 92 - didn't he win the final race of the season after Hill and Schumacher crashed out?

[Myrvold]

No he means Michael originally being a fill in at Jordan but that transition threw me for a second as well.

Must admit, only now, on the third time I've read your and Electric Boogies post I've realized how utterly awful written my own post was. Not as any excuse, but I can clearly see I was tired and that English isn't something I use in everyday situations.

 

Ye, I jumped abruptly and confusingly straight from current reserves to Michael Schumacher in 1991. Sorry!

[Myrvold]

He finished 5th actually - it was Wurz, in the following race, who finished on the podum while filling in for JPM.

Frustatingly he didn't get to stand on the podium :/
At least Villeneuve "only" finished 4th in his Sauber that race. If he'd been in Wurz' place, I would've been extremely pissed as a Villeneuve-fan. To not get to see him on the podium he eventually got.

 

Troy Bayliss coming back for a single MotoGP race at the end of 2006 and dominating the field was pretty special. 

Special and really weird. There was nothing to indicate that he would be able to do it.

[PlatenGlass]

If we include those that did a few races alternating with the main driver, Nigel Mansell was pretty good for Williams in 94 although not as great as he had been in 92 - didn't he win the final race of the season after Hill and Schumacher crashed out?

I think he was generally considered to be a bit disappointing actually. And then Coulthard got the drive for 1995.

[prty]

He finished 5th actually - it was Wurz, in the following race, who finished on the podum while filling in for JPM.

I meant them as separate events. The podium was in Hungary 2006.

[John B]

I think he was generally considered to be a bit disappointing actually. And then Coulthard got the drive for 1995.

Frank Williams made his thoughts rather clear in one interview after the season, critiquing his fitness, time 'lazy racing' in CART, and battling with Alesi's Ferrari at Suzuka while Hill drove away in the lead.

[wj_gibson]

Agreed...and that included missing a couple races himself because of neck issues IIRC.

One of many oddities of that year, Andretti filled in for both the WCC and WDC teams.

1982 was bizarre. Tambay could quite legitimately have won the title himself had a couple of results gone his way...

[Rupert]

Best mid-season stand-in drivers? Michael Schumacher (Jordan, 1991). Sebastian Vettel (BMW Sauber, 2007). Maybe not in their performance on the day, but it just goes to show some people get their breaks in unexpected ways.

 

Schumacher, on 91, have to win this one by a big margin as he was, instantly, miles faster than De Cesaris. How can you say his performance wasn't impressive? Vettel, on the other hand, was slow.

[PlatenGlass]

Just remembered - Markus Winkelhock!

[messy]

Frustatingly he didn't get to stand on the podium :/
At least Villeneuve "only" finished 4th in his Sauber that race. If he'd been in Wurz' place, I would've been extremely pissed as a Villeneuve-fan. To not get to see him on the podium he eventually got.
 


Special and really weird. There was nothing to indicate that he would be able to do it.

Yeah that was a very strange end to a very strange season. Bayliss had been disappointing in MotoGP in truth, and couldn't match Capirossi for outright pace - then he pops back up a couple of years later and wins ahead of Capirossi? Very weird.

Not going for any conspiracy theories though, as it was hardly in Ducati's interests to get the result they did with their dumped ex-rider beating their #1!!

[Yamamoto]

Yeah that was a very strange end to a very strange season. Bayliss had been disappointing in MotoGP in truth, and couldn't match Capirossi for outright pace - then he pops back up a couple of years later and wins ahead of Capirossi? Very weird.

Not going for any conspiracy theories though, as it was hardly in Ducati's interests to get the result they did with their dumped ex-rider beating their #1!!

 

It was odd. The only thing I'd add, and not saying it would have made the slightest bit of difference to the result, is that he was being pursued by three riders with reasons not to chase too hard. Capirossi claimed he was happy with second as it secured him top three in the championship (perhaps an excuse), whislt Hayden was settled in for the championship and Pedrosa was settled in behind his teammate from whom he was best keeping well away from.

 

On topic, Liuzzi did alright for Force India in 2009. Not spectacular but enough to get the job for the next year. And at the end of the season, the great Kobayashi made his Grand Prix debut before getting the drive with Sauber for 2010, after what I recall as a fairly mediocre run in the feeder series.

[chr1s]

Schumacher, on 91, have to win this one by a big margin as he was, instantly, miles faster than De Cesaris. How can you say his performance wasn't impressive? Vettel, on the other hand, was slow.

What a lot of people don't know is that  EJ originally wanted  Keke Rosberg to stand in for Gachot and it was only after someone said  "Eddie, have you any idea how old he is? "  that Schumacher got the drive!

Edited by chr1s, 26 April 2019 - 20:29.

[PlatenGlass]

Salo. Came closer than anyone to scoring for BAR in '99 then two podiums in a Ferrari including one that he really should have won.

I think people were quite impressed with his original stand-in performance for Lotus at Suzuka in 1994 in the wet.

Also, I'm surprised no-one's mentioned Eddie Irvine's debut at the same circuit a year earlier for Jordan. He made quite an impact, as of course did Senna's fist, but Irvine's race and qualifying were both fairly impressive.

[Myrvold]

What a lot of people don't know is that  EJ originally wanted  Keke Rosberg to stand in for Gachot and it was only after someone said  "Eddie, have you any idea how old he is? "  that Schumacher got the drive!

Interestingly he was only 2 years older than Mansell in the 94 Williams. Though, of course Mansell had way more recent F1 experience and was still racing in top level open-wheelers, while Rosberg was too busy either retiring or winning in WSC.

Edited by Myrvold, 26 April 2019 - 22:23.

[PlatenGlass]

Interestingly he was only 2 years older than Mansell in the 94 Williams. Though, of course Mansell had way more recent F1 experience and was still racing in top lever open-wheelers, while Rosberg was too busy either retiring or winning in WSC.

Imagine if he'd got the drive and then gone on to do everything Schumacher did in F1, retiring for the third and final time in 2012 just before his 64th birthday with 8 world titles and also having spent three years as team-mate to his own son.

[Anderis]

Just remembered - Markus Winkelhock!

Isn't he actually the driver with the best laps led to laps raced ratio in F1 history?   

And he did it in with the worst car on the grid!

[milestone 11]

IMHO
 
Troy Bayliss coming back for a single MotoGP race at the end of 2006 and dominating the field was pretty special.

Oh yes!

[Spillage]

It was odd. The only thing I'd add, and not saying it would have made the slightest bit of difference to the result, is that he was being pursued by three riders with reasons not to chase too hard. Capirossi claimed he was happy with second as it secured him top three in the championship (perhaps an excuse), whislt Hayden was settled in for the championship and Pedrosa was settled in behind his teammate from whom he was best keeping well away from.

On topic, Liuzzi did alright for Force India in 2009. Not spectacular but enough to get the job for the next year. And at the end of the season, the great Kobayashi made his Grand Prix debut before getting the drive with Sauber for 2010, after what I recall as a fairly mediocre run in the feeder series.

Kobayashi looked absolutely fantastic in those races he did for Toyota. He pulled off a great overtake of the new world champion Button in Abu Dhabi.

I remember Ricardo Zonta having a really good race for Toyota at Spa - was it 2005? He looked on course for as podium before the car packed up late on.

[Myrvold]

Kobayashi looked absolutely fantastic in those races he did for Toyota. He pulled off a great overtake of the new world champion Button in Abu Dhabi.

I remember Ricardo Zonta having a really good race for Toyota at Spa - was it 2005? He looked on course for as podium before the car packed up late on.

 

He wouldn't have been able to do the races for Toyota with todays SL-points interestingly enough. I feel this might be the achilles heel for quite a few Japanese drivers in the future as well.

 

2004. Podium would've been out of reach. I cannot see a scenario where he would pass Barrichello in the 2004 Ferrari. Outside that race his Toyota stint wasn't overly impressive tbh. A bit like his two Jordan races. He didn't mess up badly. And he was closer to Trulli when Trulli joined Toyota for the last race in 04, than he had been to Trulli in Jordan in 01. Zonta was a good replacement-driver though, lots of testing experience, and didn't do many mistakes.

On the opposite spectrum, IIRC JC Boullion lost any chance of a seat with a Renault-engined team after a poor showing against Frentzen in 95. And IIRC2, that was part of what made Williams look seriously in to Frentzen.

[chr1s]

Thinking about it, it has to be Jean-Louis Schlesser,  for ruining Ron Dennis's life!

[PayasYouRace]

Imagine if he'd got the drive and then gone on to do everything Schumacher did in F1, retiring for the third and final time in 2012 just before his 64th birthday with 8 world titles and also having spent three years as team-mate to his own son.

 

I wouldn't got that far, but I do wonder how Schumacher's career would have panned out if that opportunity hadn't come along. If he'd have still got a chance at another team? Would he have still been snapped up by Benetton in that period? Would Martin Brundle have ended up as the 1994 world champion?

[sopa]

I wouldn't got that far, but I do wonder how Schumacher's career would have panned out if that opportunity hadn't come along.

 

I think Schumacher would have got a drive somewhere in 1992? I assume he was rated highly enough for someone to have an eye on him. And if nothing else, Schumacher would have made his debut in 1993 in Sauber-Ilmor, given that he was Mercedes' junior driver and this was the team, where both Wendlinger and Frentzen ended up.

[Risil]

Imagine if he'd got the drive and then gone on to do everything Schumacher did in F1, retiring for the third and final time in 2012 just before his 64th birthday with 8 world titles and also having spent three years as team-mate to his own son.

That would've been a turn-up for the books, wouldn't it?

[Cornholio]

I wouldn't got that far, but I do wonder how Schumacher's career would have panned out if that opportunity hadn't come along. If he'd have still got a chance at another team? Would he have still been snapped up by Benetton in that period? Would Martin Brundle have ended up as the 1994 world champion?

Without the Jordan opportunity, Schumacher would still probably have debuted in 91, but in the March that Wendlinger was placed at for the last couple races, and all of 1992.

From there its not much of a stretch to see him at Sauber for 1993, and maybe getting the Benetton opportunity that Lehto got from that team.

At which point that alternate reality soon merges into the real one. Thats my lazy version at least

Edited by Cornholio, 27 April 2019 - 11:43.

[sopa]

Without the Jordan opportunity, Schumacher would still probably have debuted in 91, but in the March that Wendlinger was placed at for the last couple races, and all of 1992.

From there its not much of a stretch to see him at Sauber for 1993, and maybe getting the Benetton opportunity that Lehto got from that team.

At which point that alternate reality soon merges into the real one. Thats my lazy version at least

 

Me thinks that if one qualifying session in 1991 was enough for Schumacher to attract a top 4 team to hire him, surely with a full 1992 he would have got a call from a top team to join them for 1993. Heck... if Schumacher debuted in late 1991 in some other team than Jordan, it may have been enough for Benetton to sign him for 1992. They were looking for a driver anyway with Piquet retiring.

[Henri Greuter]

1982 was bizarre. Tambay could quite legitimately have won the title himself had a couple of results gone his way...

 

Only on race (the first...) he drove he did not score points, every other race he started, he finished, one of them being compromized after difficulties early on yet still manage to score fourth. And two races in which he couldn't start...

Patrick had only 6 starts that season (scoring points in only 5) and was 6th in the standings, 19 points behind Keke.

I think it would have been very difficult for Patrick to take that title without at least two more victories in which he had to finish ahead of Keke to reduce Keke's point scores enough to overtake him.

But certainly given the circumstances Patrick joined the team and so on, it was one of the best desplays of mid-season stand-in drivers.

 

 

Another one, at least results-wise on first sight:

 

1977: Hans Joachim Stuck took over for Carlos Pace within Brabham-Alfa Romeo from the 3th race on. His team mate was John Watson. Stuck scored 12 points that season, Watson only 9. But Watson had no less than 11 retirements in 16 starts.  (Alfa Romeo Flat-12 reliability ....)

Despite that, Watson was retained while Stuck had to make way for Lauda the next season.....

[Cornholio]

Me thinks that if one qualifying session in 1991 was enough for Schumacher to attract a top 4 team to hire him, surely with a full 1992 he would have got a call from a top team to join them for 1993. Heck... if Schumacher debuted in late 1991 in some other team than Jordan, it may have been enough for Benetton to sign him for 1992. They were looking for a driver anyway with Piquet retiring.

I was always under the impression - perhaps incorrectly - that Piquet was more or less "retired" by Schumacher's emergence. Prior to that he had won three GPs in the previous calendar year and had at least partially undone his washed up reputation from Lotus.

That aside though, on second thoughts Id say you're right. Doubt it would have taken a whole two and a bit years for him to show enough for a top team to take him on.