160 replies to this topic

[Dicun]

Let's have a topic to discuss the great wet weather drivers and drives - but also those who were not so brilliant when the rain hit the track. 

 

For the first category, we have some usual suspects: Michael "Der Regenmeister" Schumacher, Senna, Ascari, Fangio, Gilles etc. Traditionally, Britons have always been great wet weather drivers: Clark, Stewart, Moss, Hunt, Mansell (1988 Silverstone, 2nd place with the good-for-nothing Williams-Judd, wow) were all excellent in the rain. I also seem to remember Damon being pretty handy in the wet, and from the modern days, we obviously have Hamilton and Button (although he was more like the master in changeable conditions). Could the reason for this be that it tends to rain a lot in many parts of the UK so British drivers learn to excel in those conditions?

 

Who else would you name in this category? Max, Vettel, Alonso? What about some other, not-so-obvious choices like Alesi, Fittipaldi or Reutemann? Name your favourite wet weather drivers or drives, I'd love to hear your stories and opinions

 

And what about some great drivers and/or champions who were not so great in the wet? I particularly remember Mika being error-prone in the rain, and Kimi also being quite mediocre at best in such conditions. And, of course, Massa and his disastrous 2008 performance at Silverstone. One would argue that Prost belongs to this category too, although in his case it was more about a strong dislike to drive in poor visibility rather than lack of skills on a slippery surface (see his Andros Trophy results).

 

Type away, fellow F1 fans

[Marklar]

Massa was actually good-ish in the rain, everyone just remembers his Silverstone disaster though.

[JHSingo]

Let's have a topic to discuss the great wet weather drivers and drives - but also those who were not so brilliant when the rain hit the track. 

 

...

 

Type away, fellow F1 fans

 

Is wet weather racing exclusive for F1 or something?

 

The one that stands out for me is Button. Whether just media hype, or actually accurate, he just seemed to be the guy to beat in changeable circumstances. It just seems like most his wins, from his very first to his very last, was a result either of an inspired tyre choice, or just managing the conditions better than everyone else. Schumacher, in his first stint, was pretty sensational too - although in fairness, some of it was probably down to the tyres Ferrari were using. I still remember his last win - China '06 - very vividly.

 

More recently, and opening it up beyond F1 (even though he is a former F1 driver), Fernando Alonso's performance, in the rain at the Rolex 24 earlier this year, was nothing short of incredible. He was multiple seconds a lap faster than anyone else, and his car would have won the race by multiple laps because of his stints, if not for the caution periods.

 

In MotoGP, Danilo Petrucci strikes me as being one of the strongest wet weather riders there is. Although you probably can't call him a "rainmaster", given he's not won a race yet...

[sopa]

I find the kind of drivers intriguing, whose main skillset was ability in the wet, but not much else. For example - Jos Verstappen, Jean-Eric Vergne. Considering that people often say that "wet is the true test of a driver, which eliminates the great from the not-so-good", I find it interesting that some drivers can have such a good touch in slippery conditions, but can't shine in the dry.

[TomNokoe]

As a fan, Hamilton Fuji 2007 is my favourite.

[KWSN - DSM]

I find the kind of drivers intriguing, whose main skillset was ability in the wet, but not much else. For example - Jos Verstappen, Jean-Eric Vergne. Considering that people often say that "wet is the true test of a driver, which eliminates the great from the not-so-good", I find it interesting that some drivers can have such a good touch in slippery conditions, but can't shine in the dry.

 

Back in time... well actually way, way back in time late 1970ies while driving Go-Karts as a teenager, in Class A the very top class at the time (not the one I was in), there was a driver Dennis 'something' who were in general at the rear of the field, having made it to Class A meant he was not a bad driver, he was however not front running material either.

 

But... once it started raining, he would start overtaking as if he was on dry track and everyone else swimming around, I have seen him go from 22nd to 3rd over 5 laps on the Copenhagen track, which I think was between 700 and 800 meters. He was the epitome of a wet weather driver.

 

[pdac]

[Anderis]

Massa was actually good-ish in the rain, everyone just remembers his Silverstone disaster though.

Was he? He had a couple of decent rain performances but if my memory serves me right - he qualified and finished quite far back compared to what his car was capable of in wet weather most of the time, rarely outshining his team-mates.

 

[JHSingo]

Another one for me - Nick Tandy, for winning Petit Le Mans a few years ago outright in a GT car.

 

(Although I have to add the caveat that the tyres likely played a part, with the GTs being on Michelins and the Prototypes being on rubbish Continentals...)

[Henri Greuter]

Gilles Villeneuve....

 

There is no footage of it, other than the stories which appear to be over-exaggerated too: The wet practice at Watkins Glen '79 in which he was at least 8 seconds faster than anyone else... But I have spoken an eye witness of that day and he told me that it was one of the most impressive display on car control in dramatic circumstances he had ever seen an that he and his friends were soaked but in awe abouth what they had seen that day.

 

Canada '81, with an early generation Turbo F1 (throttle lag!!!) engine and likely the worst chassis of all F1 cars that season...

 loosing a front wing on the car for good measure and still end up 3rd....

Edited by Henri Greuter, 02 May 2019 - 19:35.

[Claudius]

I always thought Rubens was a pretty good wet weather driver. 

Button did surprise many times, he excelled at 

 

For me Senna and Schumacher and possibly Hamilton are the best wet weather drivers I've seen. Max has shown great potential but too early to tell.

 

As to bad driving in the wet, I never thought JV was very good at it. Maybe I'm wrong but can't think of any memorable wet weather race from him.

Edited by Claudius, 02 May 2019 - 19:37.

[sabjit]

 

 

Who else would you name in this category? Max, Vettel, Alonso? What about some other, not-so-obvious choices like Alesi, Fittipaldi or Reutemann? Name your favourite wet weather drivers or drives, I'd love to hear your stories and opinions

 

Here is the thing about Vettel's wet weather prowess.

His first race win was in the wet, and so was his second.

 

Since then, he hasnt won a wet race since, and in actual fact has lost many a race due to the fact it is raining. But for some reason, in some peoples eyes, he has managed to carry this reputation through the years. Which I find astonishing.

[TheFish]

Hasn't Lewis won something stupid like the last 10 rain affected races?

 

Button in changeable conditions was superb though, his early 2 wins for McLaren at Australia and China improved his reputation no end and showed he wasn't just someone who lucked into a great car.

[JHSingo]

Also, this - one of the finest onboards I think I've ever watched:

 

[Henri Greuter]

I always thought Rubens was a pretty good wet weather driver. 

Button did surprise many times, he excelled at 

 

For me Senna and Schumacher and possibly Hamilton are the best wet weather drivers I've seen. Max has shown great potential but too early to tell.

 

As to bad driving in the wet, I never thought JV was very good at it. Maybe I'm wrong but can't think of any memorable wet weather race from him.

 

 

 

He did not win races in the wet and there was of course the spin-out with the Minardi Brazil 2003... But Jos Verstappen also had some great rain races with the Arrows in Canada 2000 and Malaysia 2001.

[jwill189]

Massa was actually good-ish in the rain, everyone just remembers his Silverstone disaster though.

 

Massa had a lot of disasters in the wet.  He wasn't close to goodish.

[OvDrone]

God-tier Raindisaster: Jorge Lorenzo.

[Dicun]

Here is the thing about Vettel's wet weather prowess.

His first race win was in the wet, and so was his second.

 

Since then, he hasnt won a wet race since, and in actual fact has lost many a race due to the fact it is raining. But for some reason, in some peoples eyes, he has managed to carry this reputation through the years. Which I find astonishing.

 

Wow, could it be that Vettel hasn't won a wet race since China 2009?  

 

How many rain races did he bin? I only seem to remember Germany from last year, but I haven't been following him closely.

[Marklar]

One would argue that Prost belongs to this category too, although in his case it was more about a strong dislike to drive in poor visibility rather than lack of skills on a slippery surface (see his Andros Trophy results).

I honestly dont think that this is an good "excuse". Sure, it's a valid explanation why he didnt performed well and the background is serious and all that. But I'm sure that nobody likes to race in poor visibility, Senna didnt either as he himself proclaimed once, it's in the end part of the skillset and probably the reason for poor performances of many more drivers.

That being said I dont put Prost in the bad rain driver category. It was just not his strength, but far from being bad.
 

Massa had a lot of disasters in the wet.  He wasn't close to goodish.

I guess it depends on what you define on good-ish, but my point is that he was far from overall being a disaster. He had a few disasters, but so had many of the best.

Wow, could it be that Vettel hasn't won a wet race since China 2009?
 
How many rain races did he bin? I only seem to remember Germany from last year, but I haven't been following him closely.

 
To be fair he would have won Korea 2010 if the engine had hold up too.

Edited by Marklar, 02 May 2019 - 20:11.

[w1Y]

Which year did Hamilton dominate a wet silverstone.

Lewis is a master in the wet and i think max is pretty good too. Button was great in changing conditions but a lot of that is judgement in timing than actual being faster in equivalent conditons.Bit damn was he good at judging it.

[TomNokoe]

As a fan, Hamilton Fuji 2007 is my favourite.

clip

[pacificquay]

I particularly remember Mika being error-prone in the rain

Then your memory is letting you down.

I don’t think that’s a fair assessment at all.

[pacificquay]

Not F1 but I’ll just throw this in too:

https://www.carthrot...-racing-legend/

[ensign14]

For the first category, we have some usual suspects: Michael "Der Regenmeister" Schumacher

 

*ahem*  The real Regenmeister was Rudi Caracciola. 

 

Varzi's drive in the wet at the 1931 Targa was something special.  Only finished 3rd, but he led for most of the "race".  He was robbed by his Bugatti not having mudguards so he was driving close to blind for the latter part of the race, whereas Nuvolari, who never needed an unfair advantage, had comparative protection on his Alfa.

 

Prost was impeccable in the wet at Monaco 1984. 

[Bleu]

Häkkinen IMO was quite OK in heavy rain but not that good in changing conditions, especially when driving on slicks while raining/damp track.

 

On the other note, I was thinking drivers who are not considered among all-time greats, but were often great in wet. Drivers who came to my mind:

Alesi

Boutsen

J Verstappen

Lehto

Vergne

Sutil

[SophieB]

I honestly dont think that this is an good "excuse". Sure, it's a valid explanation why he didnt performed well and the background is serious and all that. But I'm sure that nobody likes to race in poor visibility, Senna didnt either as he himself proclaimed once, it's in the end part of the skillset and probably the reason for poor performances of many more drivers.

 

In his long interview to Malcolm Folley, Prost attributes his dislike of driving in the wet to the traumatic accident with Pironi and maintains prior to that, he loved driving in the wet.

Edited by SophieB, 02 May 2019 - 20:33.

[Touchdown]

Let's have a topic to discuss the great wet weather drivers and drives - but also those who were not so brilliant when the rain hit the track. 

 

For the first category, we have some usual suspects: Michael "Der Regenmeister" Schumacher, Senna, Ascari, Fangio, Gilles etc. Traditionally, Britons have always been great wet weather drivers: Clark, Stewart, Moss, Hunt, Mansell (1988 Silverstone, 2nd place with the good-for-nothing Williams-Judd, wow) were all excellent in the rain. I also seem to remember Damon being pretty handy in the wet, and from the modern days, we obviously have Hamilton and Button (although he was more like the master in changeable conditions). Could the reason for this be that it tends to rain a lot in many parts of the UK so British drivers learn to excel in those conditions?

 

Who else would you name in this category? Max, Vettel, Alonso? What about some other, not-so-obvious choices like Alesi, Fittipaldi or Reutemann? Name your favourite wet weather drivers or drives, I'd love to hear your stories and opinions

 

And what about some great drivers and/or champions who were not so great in the wet? I particularly remember Mika being error-prone in the rain, and Kimi also being quite mediocre at best in such conditions. And, of course, Massa and his disastrous 2008 performance at Silverstone. One would argue that Prost belongs to this category too, although in his case it was more about a strong dislike to drive in poor visibility rather than lack of skills on a slippery surface (see his Andros Trophy results).

 

Type away, fellow F1 fans

 

I don't think Kimi Raikkonen is too bad in the wet, actually - he won the wet race in Belgium in 2005, where before the second stops he just sat behind Montoya waiting for him to pit then upped the pace to the point where he was 2 seconds a lap faster than anyone else. There's also Britain in 2008, where he was actually racing Hamilton for the win before Ferrari did a Ferrari on the strategy, and he was very impressive coming from last to the podium at Fuji the year before. Seem to remember him racing away from the field in Brazil in 2003 also.

 

I find the kind of drivers intriguing, whose main skillset was ability in the wet, but not much else. For example - Jos Verstappen, Jean-Eric Vergne. Considering that people often say that "wet is the true test of a driver, which eliminates the great from the not-so-good", I find it interesting that some drivers can have such a good touch in slippery conditions, but can't shine in the dry.

Something that comes to mind is natural talent - perhaps certain drivers who aren't hard workers can have their talent advantage nullified in the dry, but when it comes to the wet, it comes down tofeel and car control far more. Just a theory!

Edited by Touchdown, 02 May 2019 - 20:40.

[Dicun]

Then your memory is letting you down.

I don’t think that’s a fair assessment at all.

 

I was a huge fan of Mika, cheering him on all through his McLaren days ;)

 

From the top of my head, I remember him making an error in 1998 Silverstone, spinning around onto the grass, 1998 Spa, skidding towards Schumacher in La Source and spinning around, his spun at Magny-Cours in 1999 cost him the victory that day, and he also made a mistake at Spa in 2000, which he won only due to the fact that the track has started to dry up. Although thanks to that mistake, we witnessed one of the greatest overtakes of the history of the sport 

 

So I believe that we can say Mika wasn't really good in the wet, despite being a fantastic champion who was as fast as lightning.

[sabjit]

Wow, could it be that Vettel hasn't won a wet race since China 2009?

 

How many rain races did he bin? I only seem to remember Germany from last year, but I haven't been following him closely.

 

No you haven't considering you only seem to think about races we was leading in the first place (even then you missed off the Canada 2011 bottle job and Im sure there are other examples such as Singapore 17).

 

There are plenty of examples when it rains Vettel is simply not at the races such as the pair of wet races in 2016 when Vettel was something like 9th in Silverstone and 5th in a Brazil behind a Force India? Not exactly screaming rain master there honey.

[sabjit]

Hasn't Lewis won something stupid like the last 10 rain affected races?

 

Button in changeable conditions was superb though, his early 2 wins for McLaren at Australia and China improved his reputation no end and showed he wasn't just someone who lucked into a great car.

 

 

Last rain affected race Hamilton didnt win was Hungary 2014, which he nearly did win anyway despite starting in the pitlane and sticking it in the barriers at turn two.

[MortenF1]

DC Brazil 2001. Qualifying Hockenheim 2000.
Also a couple of very good drives while at Red Bull. Fuji 2007 he was up there but perhaps not «superb» in that race.

[speedx]

Great in rain:

Heinz-Harald Frentzen
Nico Hulkenberg

[SenorSjon]

Wet races? In the Baku thread someone said we now have 30 consecutive dry races. It seems only to get worse.

From the current crop I rate Lewis and Max the highest. Verstappen practically earned his TR contract due to his wins at a soaked Norisring. He was seconds faster than the rest on a track with 3 corners.

[GoldenColt]

Massa was actually good-ish in the rain, everyone just remembers his Silverstone disaster though.

Which one, 2002 or 2008?

[Marklar]

In his long interview to Malcolm Folley, Prost attributes his dislike of driving in the wet to the traumatic accident with Pironi and maintains prior to that, he loved driving in the wet.

I know, hence why I said that I get that it's a serious background, but at the end of the day you either get on with it or not. I can entirely understand that the dislike out of a trauma caused a subsequently drop in performance. But it doesnt mean that this would apply to everyone.

Which one, 2002 or 2008?

Pretty sure 2008 is more often cited

(Not helping that the car in that year didnt particulary went well in wet conditions compared to the McLaren)

[Dicun]

No you haven't considering you only seem to think about races we was leading in the first place (even then you missed off the Canada 2011 bottle job and Im sure there are other examples such as Singapore 17).

 

There are plenty of examples when it rains Vettel is simply not at the races such as the pair of wet races in 2016 when Vettel was something like 9th in Silverstone and 5th in a Brazil behind a Force India? Not exactly screaming rain master there honey.

 

What's with the tone?

 

I'm not a Vettel fan (quite the contrary), my question was honest. This is ridiculous that a genuine question could instantly result in an answer like that - only on AS 

[chr1s]

Some often overlooked performances are,  

 

Hans Stuck 1977 USA East Grand Prix, Watkins Glen.

 

Keke Rosberg 1978 International Trophy, Silverstone.

 

Carlos Reutemann 1981 Brazilian Grand Prix, Rio.

 

Jacques Laffite 1981 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal.

[Ivanhoe]

James Hunt Suzuka 1976

[chr1s]

And Jacky Ickx of course!

[Myrvold]

Was he? He had a couple of decent rain performances but if my memory serves me right - he qualified and finished quite far back compared to what his car was capable of in wet weather most of the time, rarely outshining his team-mates.

Scored the most points of all drivers in 07 and 08 combined in wet races.

 

He did not win races in the wet and there was of course the spin-out with the Minardi Brazil 2003... But Jos Verstappen also had some great rain races with the Arrows in Canada 2000 and Malaysia 2001.

Brazil 1996 as well! Though, as the weather was drying it can be that Foot...Arrows had a more wet-weather oriented setup and that he would've fallen back much faster than usual if the engine hadn't gone poof.

[Jeeves]

Another one for me - Nick Tandy, for winning Petit Le Mans a few years ago outright in a GT car.
 
(Although I have to add the caveat that the tyres likely played a part, with the GTs being on Michelins and the Prototypes being on rubbish Continentals...)

The guy is a bona fide walk-on-water rainmaster. And just proved it again last weekend during VLN3.

[Ragnar668]

 

Varzi's drive in the wet at the 1931 Targa was something special.  

 

Almost forgot about this one

[as65p]

In his long interview to Malcolm Folley, Prost attributes his dislike of driving in the wet to the traumatic accident with Pironi and maintains prior to that, he loved driving in the wet.

And as Nigel Roebuck would quote endlessly, apparently Prosts problem wasn't a slippery track surface but lack of visibility in the rain. Which is probably connected to his Hockenheim / Pironi trauma.

 

From what I've seem, it makes some sense. Prost certainly had the driving ability to be good on a slippery road, there really can be no doubt about that. But I think on top of that in the wet you'll need supreme self confidence and a willingness to risk more than on a dry track, constantly. Those latter two abilities were probably what Prost was lacking, compared to Senna / Schumacher / Hamilton. Which I think fits into his general profile as a driver, even without taking into account the Pironi incident.

[TomNokoe]

Vettel gets a tough ride...

Fuji 2007, China 2007, great breakthrough drives.

Monza 2008, a grand prix for the ages
China 2009, destroyed the field

Brazil 2012, winning a WDC no less, from the back!

Brazil 2013 qualifying

Malaysia 2014 qualifying front row, Japan 2014 race podium

Malaysia 2015 qualifying front row

Great Britain 2015 recovery

-

He has dipped recently, but who cares. Monza 2008 is an all-time Grand Prix.

Edited by TomNokoe, 02 May 2019 - 21:50.

[sabjit]

Wet races? In the Baku thread someone said we now have 30 consecutive dry races. It seems only to get worse.

From the current crop I rate Lewis and Max the highest. Verstappen practically earned his TR contract due to his wins at a soaked Norisring. He was seconds faster than the rest on a track with 3 corners.

 

And in that time we have had a fair share of wet satrudays.

 

In the last decade I wonder what the count is of wet qualifying vs wet race? Rain seems reserved for Saturdays for some reason.

[danmills]

There's no such thing as a wet race anymore. The second it comes, you get a few runs on inters before the cry baby generation moans it's too dangerous or the pc safety brigade tell them to park up and wait for it to pass over. I get the safety aspect, but they've run far wetter races in far more dangerous cars at way more dangerous tracks.

[Frood]

In defence of a current maligned driver - considering we rarely have wet sessions now and the drivers get very little time to show what they can do in wet conditions - I seem to recall Lance Stroll being uncannily quick in the wet at Monza.

Also, Nick Heidfeld used to pop up on or near the podium in rain-affected races. His overtaking at Silverstone ‘08 was sublime.

Edited by Frood, 02 May 2019 - 23:36.

[RacingGreen]

Leaving F1 for a while one of my favourite rain stories actually happened only a couple of weeks ago here in Australia. Supercar racing this season is being totally dominated by the Ford Mustangs. One race however has been won by Shane VG's Holden, race 8 in mixed (dry / damp) condition. While part of course must go down to good driving, SVG also had the advantage of a bit of help from his team manager Mark Dutton doing some low tech coaching from the pit lane. This apparently consisted of him telling SVG where others were struggling with braking etc and done purely by watching the cars on track while the other team bosses were stuck in the garage looking at their radar screens trying to think up race strategies. A triumph of low tech and the use of the mark 1 eyeball.

[RacingGreen]

There's no such thing as a wet race anymore. The second it comes, you get a few runs on inters before the cry baby generation moans it's too dangerous or the pc safety brigade tell them to park up and wait for it to pass over. I get the safety aspect, but they've run far wetter races in far more dangerous cars at way more dangerous tracks.

 

Charlie (may he rest in peace) did take a very cautious approach in deploying the safety car when conditions became trick. Given the large run off areas we have at many tracks some races could easily have been allowed to continue and the drivers left to cope with the challenging conditions^#. We have a new race director and the pressure from teams and whiny drivers in bad cars calling for a safety because they can't keep up with the guy in front who is a better wet weather driver than them will be a real test for him.

 

^# Of course I have the benefit of hindsight and wasn't being asked to make the call on the spot myself.

Edited by RacingGreen, 02 May 2019 - 23:43.

[BuddyHolly]

Apart from the obvious top tier (Senna, Schumi, Clark, Stewart etc)

 

Good: Pedro Rodriguez

 

Bad: Damon Hill