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Ferrari in 1991


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#1 rallen

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Posted 07 May 2019 - 12:50

I have a few queries about Ferrari in 1991 if anyone would like to advise or just give me there general thoughts?

 

We all know how bad Ferrari was in 1991 (and indeed 1992) but this week I watched the FIA Season review from 1991 and was surprised by how fast the Ferrari was for parts of the season indicating they were more competitive then I thought they were. Prost came 2nd three times! and 3rd twice (scoring 34 points) Alesi got three 3rds. There were also front row starts for Ferrari that year too.

 

So, does Ferrari's season need a bit or a re-evaluation all things considered? I know the politics at the time were a mess and the leadership was all over the place but performance wise that car was quick and could go race distance.

 

What is the opinion of Prost that season? Did he do better than could conceivably be expected in that car? was it about par? or could he have done better?

 

How did Prost and Alesi compare with each other? I imagine it was generally assumed that Alesi was faster, or would be faster - did Prost totally overshadow his younger fast teammate on pace?

 

Was actually an interesting season review and just took me by surprise how high up the field Ferrari were in both qualifying and race considering how badly that season is referred to for them. What are peoples thoughts?



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#2 noikeee

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Posted 07 May 2019 - 13:14

On hindsight I think Prost did fine that year and largely killed the momentum that was building up around Alesi's career (though Alesi would emerge the following year dominating a very disappointing Capelli - if in a progressively even worse car). The issue was the step back in performance in the car, from solid championship contenders in 90 to occasional podium finishers at best in 91. Understandably that was disappointing specially given the huge investment in Prost and Barnard, in Ferrari the blame game is always on, and ultimately that led to the famous late season falling out between Prost and the team.
 
At least this is how I understand it from hindsight, as I was way too young to follow that season in depth as it played out, others might be able to provide more details.


#3 AJCee

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Posted 07 May 2019 - 13:44

For the start of the season the car wasn't developed far enough from the year before and even after the introduction of the new chassis mid season they were still comfortably behind Williams and McLaren overall.  They had one of the best drivers ever to sit in a Formula 1 car so some decent results in the 3rd/4th/5th fastest car seems only natural.  The questions were not over Prost, but how Alesi would cope as his inexperienced and highly touted teammate, I don't think anyone thought that Alesi was about to blow Prost off into the weeds.  There seems to be a strange view around that Prost was slow: Alesi only outqualified him twice.

It all comes down to the pantomime of management and the shrapnel it threw off in all directions.



#4 absinthedude

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Posted 07 May 2019 - 14:14

My recollection is that compared to 1990 the car wasn't good enough to start with and did not receive enough development. Around Spa or Monza, Prost began publicly criticising the car and was sacked by the team for doing so. That tells you all you needed to know about the state of Ferrari management at the time. Prost was probably their best asset, dragging podiums out of a care barely capable of running in the top 3/4....and they dropped him for telling the truth. 



#5 realracer200

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Posted 07 May 2019 - 14:38

The 1991 car was more of a evolution of the 1990 car which was actually very good probably the best on the grid. But what happened is that Williams introduced the super competitive FW14 which was a real game changer.



#6 427MkIV

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Posted 07 May 2019 - 15:17

1991 was a disappointment due to the promise the team showed in 1990, but it wasn't a surprise given the decade of domination by Williams and McLaren. Ferrari hadn't had a superior car since 1982, but it was hoped that a competitive car plus Prost combined with a slight slip by McLaren or Williams might be able to make it close, but that's a lot of factors that had to fall just right, and none of them did. It's kind of like thinking earlier this season that Ferrari might have finally leapfrogged Mercedes, then reality rears its head.



#7 MartLgn

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Posted 07 May 2019 - 17:35

The 1990 car seemed to benefit from the stars aligning at Maranello, the Barnard design gave a good platform for development, Prost was using his charm to get the team around him and engine, aero and chassis departments were working in harmony. It was a quiet season on the political side and the whole package reached a level where it posed a genuine threat to the McLaren, Honda, Senna assault. Fast foreward to the autumn of 1990 and it seems that laurels were rested on, I recall seeing the 1991 car for the first time and the major changes were some rounding off of the sidepods and the addition of metal strips to the carbon fibre crash structure. Remember that A Newey was really onto something with the williams chassis and Renault seemed able to produce the best engine at will and the past season for the Scuderia is exposed as a flash in the pan. 



#8 TennisUK

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Posted 07 May 2019 - 18:18

The Ferrari(s) that year looked very old fashioned compared to the Williams.

#9 Charlieman

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Posted 07 May 2019 - 19:16

Three teams won a WDC race in 1991 (McLaren, Williams, Bennetton) but Ferrari still managed third place in the constructors' championship. Ferrari does not have an entitlement to win races every season. Overall, Ferrari performed well in the 1991 season. 

 

I recommend reading the recent biographies of Adrian Newey and John Barnard for an understanding of how teams worked at the time. John Barnard no doubt has some thoughts about how his Ferrari 640 developed into the 641 and 642.



#10 chr1s

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Posted 07 May 2019 - 20:31

 

 

How did Prost and Alesi compare with each other? I imagine it was generally assumed that Alesi was faster, or would be faster -

 

I was at Silverstone in 1991 and on the Friday there was a speed trap set up on the Hanger straight, just before the braking zone for Stow, with a clearly visible digital display. Prost was the only driver to go through it at over 200mph, neither Williams or McLaren managed it and Alesi certainly didn't!


Edited by chr1s, 07 May 2019 - 20:33.


#11 realracer200

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Posted 08 May 2019 - 02:42

I was at Silverstone in 1991 and on the Friday there was a speed trap set up on the Hanger straight, just before the braking zone for Stow, with a clearly visible digital display. Prost was the only driver to go through it at over 200mph, neither Williams or McLaren managed it and Alesi certainly didn't!

 

One speed trap doesn't mean that much and in fact Alesi was faster on friday.



#12 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 08 May 2019 - 06:54

For the start of the season the car wasn't developed far enough from the year before and even after the introduction of the new chassis mid season they were still comfortably behind Williams and McLaren overall.  They had one of the best drivers ever to sit in a Formula 1 car so some decent results in the 3rd/4th/5th fastest car seems only natural.  The questions were not over Prost, but how Alesi would cope as his inexperienced and highly touted teammate, I don't think anyone thought that Alesi was about to blow Prost off into the weeds.  There seems to be a strange view around that Prost was slow: Alesi only outqualified him twice.

It all comes down to the pantomime of management and the shrapnel it threw off in all directions.

 

Maybe you can compare the expectations on Prost vs Alesi with the expectations that we've had on Vettel vs Leclerc (although that is not a perfect comparison, as I think Prost was rated higher at the time than Vettel is now - certainly less error prone by a country mile). Alesi was very much the next star on the horizon and at the time I think most people were expecting him to rack up a fair amount of wins and a couple of championships before calling it a day.

 

It is kind of ridiculous that the idea of Prost being slow has almost come to define him. He was easily faster than all of his team mates apart from Senna (including some very fast drivers like Rosberg, Lauda and Mansell).


Edited by Rediscoveryx, 08 May 2019 - 06:54.


#13 Henri Greuter

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Posted 08 May 2019 - 08:12

I wonder how the loss of input by John Barnard affected the team that year....

#14 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 08 May 2019 - 23:42

It is kind of ridiculous that the idea of Prost being slow has almost come to define him. He was easily faster than all of his team mates apart from Senna (including some very fast drivers like Rosberg, Lauda and Mansell).

Prost is criminally underrated. Whether that's because of his approach/style or just the Senna factor, it's not right. At all.

#15 john aston

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 06:01

Quite so . In period he had the disadvantage of not believing that he was on a divine mission ,  of not looking  spectacular on track and of appearing polite and decent (although I believe his horizontal activities caused some grief ?) And he also has the burden of not being killed on track because to the more impressionable follower of the sport  , nothing burnishes a driver's legacy as much  as premature demise  



#16 blackmme

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 06:33

Quite so . In period he had the disadvantage of not believing that he was on a divine mission , of not looking spectacular on track and of appearing polite and decent (although I believe his horizontal activities caused some grief ?) And he also has the burden of not being killed on track because to the more impressionable follower of the sport , nothing burnishes a driver's legacy as much as premature demise


I think the modern equivalent of his ‘Horizontal Adventures’ would be Lewis playing ‘Hide the sausage’ with Susie Wolff the morning of the Spanish Grand Prix (although with Zandvoort potentially coming back on the calendar they could go full Nostalgia on it), Allegedly.

Regards Mike

Edited by blackmme, 09 May 2019 - 06:33.


#17 rallen

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 09:40

Interesting comments, thanks gents.

 

So would the general view be that Ferrari was generally shambolic but Prost ultimately burnished his reputation? I found it interesting the comment above (sorry it wont let me quote reply) that being partnered with Prost effectively killed the momentum around Alesi's career.

 

For the record I am not saying Prost was slow - but what was the contemporary view at the time in the paddock and with you guys about them being team mates? Did people think Prost would struggle or be outpaced? or was it very much that Prost would have him in his pocket.

 

It does seem lunacy that Prost was sacked - would be interesting to see how Ferrari in 1992 would have been with Prost at the wheel (and having developed the car) Prost is the driver I have re-assed most from that era and have come to rate him a lot higher than I did at the time.



#18 Michael Ferner

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 17:45

It was most certainly not "generally assumed that Alesi was faster, or would be faster", but not necessarily the opposite, either. I think most people were genuinely interested in how the prodigy would stack up against an established ace. I had never been a particular fan of Prost, stemming from my support for René Arnoux back in the early eighties, but over the years I had come to accept his superiority over the field, which in my humble opinion at least also included Senna, and even learned to admire him for that. For me, personally, the outcome of that particular "duel" was not a surprise, but very much as I expected it to be. The surprise for me, at the time, was the lack of performance from Ferrari. You say they weren't so bad, with Prost coming second three times (exclamation mark!), but you have to realize that Prost had been in with a chance of winning the title in 1990, and finishing second was simply not good enough, neither for him nor for the team. Going a full year without even a single win was just a desaster, and back then I had a hard time accepting or even only understanding it - what had gone so terribly wrong? I'm sure I wasn't alone in posing that question!

Looking back, I think we were all victims of a slightly deranged perception. In 1989, Ferrari had been generally no match for McLaren; apart from a few flash-in-the-pan moments and the occasional slip-up by McLaren, Ferrari had neither the speed nor the reliability to mount a serious challenge. So, what changed in 1990? In terms of cars, not much: both McLaren and Ferrari went into the new season with updated versions of their '89 cars. But the driver pairings changed, with Prost and Berger swopping places. If you now look a the results, you can see how Berger and Senna improved over their respective '89 results, while Prost and Mansell suffered - especially the relative performances of Berger and Mansell are interesting, since they really show that Ferrari was still no match for McLaren, and if anything they were a bit worse off than in 89, performance-wise.

What skewed the picture was a healthy dose of luck, and the Prost factor, namely his "legendary ability to conserve tyres in the early stages of the race, combined with a delicacy of touch which often allowed him to run fractionally less wing than Mansell", as AUTOCOURSE put it. And the following year's AUTOCOURSE opened its Ferrari manoeuvre critique with: "The famous team from Maranello surged into 1991 on the crest of a wave of misplaced confidence...", which really says it all. At Ferrari (and not only there), they genuinely believed they had closed the gap, while in reality they were already slipping even further behind. And while McLaren went into the new year full steam ahead (new engine, new aerodynamic concept), Ferrari merely introduced some cosmetic changes. All the while Williams and Renault were making great strides, and with Mansell replacing the tenth most famous Belgian, they now also had a driver capable of winning a championship, and Ferrari was no longer even in the running for Grand Prix wins. Which became very obvious very early in 1991, and so in no time at all the famous Maranello Panic set in, and the rest is history. Of course, compared with the following two or three years, 1991 was still Gold Standard for Ferrari, but people didn't know that then; they only knew how close Prost had come in 1990.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 10 May 2019 - 17:59.


#19 Tim Murray

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 18:24

It had to happen - it was decreed by fate.

Ferrari won their 100th World Championship Grand Prix during 1990. They then had three seasons without a win.

McLaren won their 100th WC GP during 1993. They then had three seasons without a win.

Williams won their 100th WC GP during 1997. They then had three seasons without a win.