82 replies to this topic

[SenorSjon]

OTOH, we've seen Webber get a podium because this lapped car waveby helped him a lot. So someone lost a point there because a fast car got a free lap back. Verstappen in Singapore 2015 (albeit for Toro Rosso) got to say his famous No this way and even finished ahead of his teammate! See this timing chart: http://en.mclarenf-1...arlos Sainz Jr. He got from 142s behind his teammate to 24s behind due to this.

[ExFlagMan]

VSC or Code 60 is no use if you have gravel/debris to clear, as they would only add more delay to the clear up time.

 

There is an art to rapidly clearing debris and having cars coming round at random intervals is the last thing you need if you are working out on the track.

 

You need to sweep the debris, especially gravel,  from the inside to the outside so that any cars running over it are not spreading it back onto the swept area, which, as drivers would prefer to use the cleaned part rather than the dirty part, means they will tend to be trying to drive behind the marshals, which tends to slow things down as the natural instinct is to be looking at the cars rather than the area you are sweeping.

[PlatenGlass]

In situations where the VSC doesn't work, they could just bring everyone into the pits, and when the circuit is clear, they just release them in time intervals depending on the gap that existed before the race was stopped. It wouldn't be the same as the old race stoppages where everyone has to line up on the grid again and they have to have to waste loads of time. The stoppage need be no longer than the safety car period would have been. The only difference is that you haven't wasted a load of laps and the cars are still spaced out in the same way they were.

[ExFlagMan]

Might be tricky as F1 cars do not like standing still with the engine running and if you switch them off they allegedly need to go through a fairly lengthy start-up sequence.

[PlatenGlass]

Might be tricky as F1 cars do not like standing still with the engine running and if you switch them off they allegedly need to go through a fairly lengthy start-up sequence.

There would need to be some warning period for the restart, but the cars routinely stop for a few minutes in between runs in qualifying.

[ExFlagMan]

True - but they are usually in the garages with cooling fans attached at that point - not so easy to do if they are lined up at the end of the pit lane waiting for the restart. 

 

How long a warning would you suggest they be given - I believe they get at least 10 mins warning of a restart from a red flag.  That would equate to several laps running behind the SC using the current procedure, so they seems to be no net gain and possibly a bigger delay..

[azza200]

Was watching the 2003 season DVD & before the last chicane at Monza on that straight a Renault was on the side of the track again, no SC was called out to retrieve it. 

[Celloman]

Was watching the 2003 season DVD & before the last chicane at Monza on that straight a Renault was on the side of the track again, no SC was called out to retrieve it. 

The keyword is before the Bianchi death, there is no way old procedures will return now.

[Cornholio]

That's the way the cookie crumbled in American racing for years, sometimes you're in front sometimes you're behind.....

 

I think the safety car should pick up the first car that arrives behind it once it is on track and the cars remain in the order they arrive, if there are 5 lapped cars between first and second then that's tough and if the leader is the 4th car in the queue who cares? Do they really think the average person watching is that dumb they can't figure out who is driving which car? The race order is displayed on screen for most of the race so you know their actual race position. 

 

I often wondered about this in my head to be honest. To give an extreme and very hypothetical example, if 1st place is say a minute ahead of 2nd, so roughly 2/3rd of a lap (next to impossible in modern F1, but still), it would still be unfair and a game of chance (but what SC isn't), but they'd have a higher possibility of gaining nearly a lap on 2nd place, than they would of having the near lap lead eradicated to next to nothing.

 

Personally I don't think I'd have a problem with it, although I think too many would for it to be viable. Plus it might be open to accusations of the SC being "held" a few seconds to benefit a certain driver, stuff like that.

 

Although if I'm remembering right this is how it works at Le Mans? With multiple SCs for the long lap, but they all come out and pick up the first car they happen to. Less critical for a 24 hour race I know, but still significant.

[PayasYouRace]

If they were 11th and 3 seconds behind 10th place and catching them, but safety car comes out just before leader laps 10th place, it's game over. Huge penalty. You just don't want to see it because you are only focussed on what's happening at the front is all.

 

Sure, but what about the penalty that the 9th placed man has now got to deal with, as he was 45s ahead of 10th when the safety car came out and now he's got him right behind?

 

To bunch the cars you have to make a split somewhere. It's swings and roundabouts. Someone will lose out whatever happens.

[goldenboy]

Sure, but what about the penalty that the 9th placed man has now got to deal with, as he was 45s ahead of 10th when the safety car came out and now he's got him right behind?

To bunch the cars you have to make a split somewhere. It's swings and roundabouts. Someone will lose out whatever happens.

True. In the last race it would have pretty much ruined what was building up though.

[Clatter]

Not allowing them to unlap themselves means you pretty much write off the race for them. It's too much of a penalty.

Once they have been lapped their race is pretty much over anyway. I don't really see why they should get the privilege of unlapping themselves for free.

[PlatenGlass]

True - but they are usually in the garages with cooling fans attached at that point - not so easy to do if they are lined up at the end of the pit lane waiting for the restart.

How long a warning would you suggest they be given - I believe they get at least 10 mins warning of a restart from a red flag. That would equate to several laps running behind the SC using the current procedure, so they seems to be no net gain and possibly a bigger delay..

I'm not sure exactly but they don't actually need 10 minutes to start a car in qualifying so I'm sure it could be worked around. And we could say the race is "paused" rather than stopped.

Also if this was done as a routine thing with drivers getting very short notice, then the onus would be on the teams to design cars that could be started very quickly, perhaps even by the driver. They could easily do that anyway but don't because there's no pressing need at present.

[goldenboy]

Once they have been lapped their race is pretty much over anyway. I don't really see why they should get the privilege of unlapping themselves for free.

I don't quite understand how that means their race is over. I'm talking about guys battling for P8/9/10. Being lapped makes no difference, only the gap to the driver in front they are chasing?

How is it race over anyway?

[chrcol]

its so stupid, either keep the lapped cars where they are or drop them to back of pack.

 

keeping them where they are can also add strategy decisions as well, as if a leader pitting would make have a lapped car between them and the position in front it may prevent them from taking that cheap pit stop.

Edited by chrcol, 16 May 2019 - 13:45.

[Atreiu]

The SC should pick up the leader. That's it. Guys caught behind traffic just have to deal with it.

 

And the VSC should be abolished in favor of full blown SCs.

[sgtkate]

The SC should pick up the leader. That's it. Guys caught behind traffic just have to deal with it.

And the VSC should be abolished in favor of full blown SCs.

I absolutely disagree with this. Why do we have a safety car or yellow flags? To ensure the marshalls and drivers are safe. It's not to bunch up the pack, let cars unlap themselves or cause randomisation of the running order, it's solely there for safety and the other implications are problems that existed because there was no other means to do it. Now we have such tech advancements we can sensibly ensure safety is maintained whilst minimally affecting the racing if at all but better use of the VSC that is tweaked so all drivers get the same penalty by maintaining deltas that keep the gap to the car infront the same.

Safety without affecting the race.

[chrcol]

Yeah keep the VSC, thats a clear large enhancement over SC.

[Jerem]

I'm on the SC camp. I find VSC absolutely unreadable, the gaps after VSC seem to change randomly, where you are on track when it ends affects your restart massively. Any implementation of VSC that wouldn't have that affect would require a control on position (including lines) but also speed and acceleration of the cars. I don't know if SC is much safer for marshalls but it must feel safer when you have the whole pack passing by and then a long "quiet" time gap.

 

Regarding standing restarts, wasn't it a thing a few years ago that we'd get standing restarts after SC? Or was it just going to be for wet races? It never happened did it?

[ExFlagMan]

I absolutely disagree with this. Why do we have a safety car or yellow flags? To ensure the marshalls and drivers are safe. It's not to bunch up the pack, let cars unlap themselves or cause randomisation of the running order, it's solely there for safety and the other implications are problems that existed because there was no other means to do it. Now we have such tech advancements we can sensibly ensure safety is maintained whilst minimally affecting the racing if at all but better use of the VSC that is tweaked so all drivers get the same penalty by maintaining deltas that keep the gap to the car infront the same.

Safety without affecting the race.

Question is - would YOU be happy to be one of the marshals out there trying to sweep up gravel under a VSC. (See post #52)

[PlatenGlass]

I'm on the SC camp. I find VSC absolutely unreadable, the gaps after VSC seem to change randomly, where you are on track when it ends affects your restart massively. Any implementation of VSC that wouldn't have that affect would require a control on position (including lines) but also speed and acceleration of the cars.

I'm not sure I see this as logical though. The VSC isn't perfect, so maybe someone's 9-second lead might become 9 +/- 2 seconds, for example. Surely it's still better than just to wipe it out completely. Something that isn't quite 100% fair is still better than just wiping out any sort of fairness at all.

[PlatenGlass]

Question is - would YOU be happy to be one of the marshals out there trying to sweep up gravel under a VSC. (See post #52)

I think the main point is that all things being equal, you want to mess up the race as little as possible. Preserve the gaps, preserve the fairness. Obviously it depends on the safety of the specific situation though.

[Bleu]

I'm on the SC camp. I find VSC absolutely unreadable, the gaps after VSC seem to change randomly, where you are on track when it ends affects your restart massively. Any implementation of VSC that wouldn't have that affect would require a control on position (including lines) but also speed and acceleration of the cars. I don't know if SC is much safer for marshalls but it must feel safer when you have the whole pack passing by and then a long "quiet" time gap.

 

Regarding standing restarts, wasn't it a thing a few years ago that we'd get standing restarts after SC? Or was it just going to be for wet races? It never happened did it?

 

There was some plan but it was abolished. However, for last year the decision was made that there won't be rolling starts when race begins under wet conditions. Instead, several laps may be completed under SC and then start will take place from the grid. Additional laps under SC are reduced from the race distance. So if Belgian GP starts wet and race starts after five laps under SC, the actual race distance will be 40 laps instead of 44.

[Marklar]

Actually the VSC would be far less random if it would end exactly where it started for the race leader. Would be still a slight variation depending on how much drivers were driving to their delta, but that would be their fault anyways.

[ANF]

Question is - would YOU be happy to be one of the marshals out there trying to sweep up gravel under a VSC. (See post #52)

No thanks. With the VSC, cars would probably be doing about 175 km/h* at that spot. Some would be spread out, others bunched up, trying to gain ground in anticipation for "VSC ending".

* Or 173 km/h given that the car would be doing 225 km/h in the "quick lap" telemetry map which the VSC times are based on. And given that "a map in the ECU which is 30 percent slower than a quick lap" (the words of Charlie Whiting) actually means that the "quick lap" time has been stretched to 130 percent, which I suspect is the case even though it would give a reduction in speed of only 23 percent. I'm only guessing because I'm yet to see an official, written document that describes the VSC rules in detail.

[7MGTEsup]

People moaning about fairness of the SC must never have watched American racing with full course yellows. Sometimes you gain from it some times you lose out, it doesn't seem to bother the drivers or spectators over there they just accept it's part of racing.

 

We could always go back to red flags and aggregate races?

[SenorSjon]

Actually the VSC would be far less random if it would end exactly where it started for the race leader. Would be still a slight variation depending on how much drivers were driving to their delta, but that would be their fault anyways.

 

And how would you do pitstops then? Same issue with slow zones though. Some people could pass it once, others twice and then you lose a lot of time.

 

People moaning about fairness of the SC must never have watched American racing with full course yellows. Sometimes you gain from it some times you lose out, it doesn't seem to bother the drivers or spectators over there they just accept it's part of racing.

 

We could always go back to red flags and aggregate races?

 

Well, it does bother Americans and drivers because we have had a couple of recent races where someone who dictated the race ended up 10th or so due to a misplaced SC, ruining their tactic and gave the rest free pitstops.

[Sterzo]

The Virtual Safety Car as currently practised can be a bit of a shambles, with varied speeds and changing gaps. That's because it's left up to the drivers and not adequately regulated, which would be easy to improve. It's only a matter of regulating speeds and intervals, which is just a question of steering wheel displays. Then it could be safer than the safety car, quicker to implement than the safety car, and much fairer.

[Clatter]

I absolutely disagree with this. Why do we have a safety car or yellow flags? To ensure the marshalls and drivers are safe. It's not to bunch up the pack, let cars unlap themselves or cause randomisation of the running order, it's solely there for safety and the other implications are problems that existed because there was no other means to do it. Now we have such tech advancements we can sensibly ensure safety is maintained whilst minimally affecting the racing if at all but better use of the VSC that is tweaked so all drivers get the same penalty by maintaining deltas that keep the gap to the car infront the same.

Safety without affecting the race.

The SC is there to ensure the race stays within the 2 hour race limit, because TV companies don't like overrunning. For safety the best solution is to stop the race as they used to. As that's not going to happen, then the bunching up of the cars is far safer, as it gives the workers a couple of minutes window of clear track to work in. The VSC means the cars are spread out and the workers continually have to dodge them.

[PayasYouRace]

The Virtual Safety Car as currently practised can be a bit of a shambles, with varied speeds and changing gaps. That's because it's left up to the drivers and not adequately regulated, which would be easy to improve. It's only a matter of regulating speeds and intervals, which is just a question of steering wheel displays. Then it could be safer than the safety car, quicker to implement than the safety car, and much fairer.

I have to question how safe it is to have drivers looking at numbers on their displays rather than out of the car where there might be hazards.

[Atreiu]

I absolutely disagree with this. Why do we have a safety car or yellow flags? To ensure the marshalls and drivers are safe. It's not to bunch up the pack, let cars unlap themselves or cause randomisation of the running order, it's solely there for safety and the other implications are problems that existed because there was no other means to do it. Now we have such tech advancements we can sensibly ensure safety is maintained whilst minimally affecting the racing if at all but better use of the VSC that is tweaked so all drivers get the same penalty by maintaining deltas that keep the gap to the car infront the same.

Safety without affecting the race.

 

 

What is there unsafe about the SC picking up the leader and not allowing the order to change itself? I'm not talking about using the SC as a competitive implement, but simply to slow the field and allow marshalls to work and drivers to circulate safely.

[chrcol]

Question is - would YOU be happy to be one of the marshals out there trying to sweep up gravel under a VSC. (See post #52)

 

Wouldnt bother me, driving a F1 car at VSC pace, is akin to driving a road car at 10-20mph, should be very safe, its like sweeping a road where the cars are going by you at 10mph.

[chrcol]

I'm not sure I see this as logical though. The VSC isn't perfect, so maybe someone's 9-second lead might become 9 +/- 2 seconds, for example. Surely it's still better than just to wipe it out completely. Something that isn't quite 100% fair is still better than just wiping out any sort of fairness at all.

 

Indeed, I am struggling to understand the reasoning to the post you replied to, so apparently the gaps been moved a round a bit is far worse than "all" gaps vanishing?