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Mercedes C111 - a missed racing opportunity ?


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#1 moffspeed

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 13:32

Inspired by the recent appearance of a sextet of C111's at Techno-Classica Essen, just a random thought.

 

So M.B. had dropped the Wankel concept and along came a series of rugged, reliable and very quick diesel powered versions. In various forms they lapped Nardi at an average in excess of 155mph over 64 hours (!), then a return to  average nearly 200mph over 500 kms before the final version with Project 400 WM look-alike bodywork topped out at 250 mph (appropriately). All of this with fuel economy (allegedly) the happy side of 15 mpg (18L/100km).

 

OK the M.B. board didn't have a great enthusiasm for motorsport in the late 70's but it sounds like a great recipe for an endurance racer to me...



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#2 TennisUK

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 15:11

When they did return in full to top class racing they had already spent 4 years with Sauber (and won in 1989...) before they were prepared to do that. I suspect memories of 1955 were still pretty fresh in 1970 and there was pretending this was a garagiste (like Sauber) either.

 

I am unsure what class(es) it would have competed with in sportscar racing, either. Were Wankels even permitted in Group 4,5 or 6?



#3 GazChed

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 19:45

A Belgian entered Chevron B16 powered by a Mazda rotary engine competed at Le Mans in 1970 in the 2 litre prototype class . I am not sure where the equivalence for rotary engines would have placed the C111 in 1970 as the prototype classes ( group 6 ) were restricted to 2 and 3 litre limits in 1970 ( 5 litres if they built 25 or more to place them in Group 4 ) . The challenge of rotary engines in racing may have been in it's infancy but it definitely existed in 1970 .

As far as diesel engined cars are concerned wasn't it the 1990s before they became eligible to race at Le Mans ?

Edited by GazChed, 13 May 2019 - 19:46.


#4 TennisUK

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 20:04

First diesel was 1949...

#5 GazChed

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 20:18

I had a nagging doubt tennis , a nagging doubt .....

#6 TennisUK

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 20:33

I doubt any equivalency formula (was there such a thing in 1949!) was all over the shop until well into the 80s anyway...

#7 Vitesse2

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 21:02

A 2-litre Hanomag diesel ran in both the Spa 24 Hours and the Paris 12 Hours in 1938, in both cases in the 2-litre class. Obviously, it was outclassed; should probably have been matched against the 1100s. Karl Haeberle also built a smaller one with a 1.5 litre engine, which won its class (against meagre opposition) in Helsinki in 1939 and an unspecified car - possibly the streamliner which had taken speed records earlier in the year - was entered for the cancelled 1939 Paris 12 Hours. I don't think the ACO's pre-war rules admitted diesels, but presumably the RACB and AGACI had no problem with them.

 

There were even some advocates of diesel-engined racers and record-breakers in Britain in the late 1930s - including Bill Boddy and Michael McEvoy.



#8 TennisUK

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 21:24

I would imagine a high geared diesel would have been perfect for a Nardi run in the early 70s - probably not quite as good at Le Mans, less good again at Spa.



#9 StanBarrett2

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 22:16

Probably of little use here but Auto Zeitung #15 of 1979 had a good piece on the C111 series of cars.

I say of little use because it is in German.



#10 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 01:16

I would have thought the C111 was too heavy to consider racing...

It was a well-built car and finished in a way racing cars aren't.

#11 john aston

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 05:45

Agreed - but what a road car opportunity was missed . Echoes of the gawky looking , but reportedly brilliant, Rover BS . Unfortunate name , in hindsight, but we were not as sweary back then.


Edited by john aston, 14 May 2019 - 05:45.


#12 2F-001

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 06:24

The Wankel motor was only used on the CS111-I and -II; a 5-cyl 3-litre diesel for the -IID and -III.

The C111-IV - which hit the record big numbers at Nardo - used a twin-turbo 4.8-litre petrol engine.

 

The later versions were substantially different machines to the early Wankel-engined cars.

 

(Ref. “Mercedes-Benz C111 Experimental cars” by Frere , pics by Weitmann, Edita SA, 1981… an interesting and handsome, if somewhat obscure, tome.)

I don’t recall anything mentioned therein, or elsewhere, that suggested any aspect the C111 would have made it (or was intended to make it) a worthwhile circuit-racing machine. So far as I can see, only the -I showed any possible practicability as a road car.

 

- - - - - - - - -

I think that when rotary-engined Mazdas were raced in BTCC and WEC, the capacity equivalency formula was 1:2 wasn’t it?



#13 Henri Greuter

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 06:53

If we talk about the early orange cars of the early 70's...

Racecars? No. certainly not with the fuel ineffeciënt wankels of those days.
But a missed opportunity for he very first of supercars above Ferrari & Lambo level? For me, that answer is: Yes.

#14 moffspeed

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 08:17

Yes I was only aware of the rather tubby orange cars with their Wankel motivation until Essen.

 

Take a look/Google  the Mercedes 111-IV, a very different animal. Covered in splitters, wings and fins it looked like the WM Project 400 after a significant steroidal infusion...this is the one that could have had the potential ?



#15 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 08:33

Here's the one I'm talking about, too:

C111front.jpg

C111.jpg

C111doorup.jpg

I think that was on display at the Wentworth Hotel in Sydney.

#16 2F-001

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 08:50

That's C111-II. My comment about possible road-car credentials should have included this one - apologies, I mixed up the roman numerals. 



#17 2F-001

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 09:12

Take a look/Google  the Mercedes 111-IV, a very different animal. Covered in splitters, wings and fins it looked like the WM Project 400 after a significant steroidal infusion...this is the one that could have had the potential ?

As an endurance racer? I'd guess not. Leaving aside its design, layout (and intentions) it was pretty heavy. Even with the 4.8 twin turbo it had a power-to-weight ratio less than half that of the best of the time (and a few years later for Group C too - they'd have a few years to develop it for that, but it would not have been the same car). I can't see even better fuel economy (and maybe a bit less weight) being enough to make that work.

 

I believe a successful endurance racer needs to be more than quick, fuel efficient and reliable - it has to be easy to drive, easy to service and those things are usually built-in from the start. 



#18 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 11:33

And any weight is parasitic in a race car...

More weight means bigger brakes, bigger brakes are heavier, they need more cooling, more weight just keeps on creeping in.