22 replies to this topic

[cpbell]

Bit of a mystery for you - I follow the "Circuits of the Past" Youtube channel, and he's recently uploaded a video from Donington, shot last year.  He was driven, by an official, in the circuit's Safety Car on both the contemporary layouts of the circuit, but was also driven down the hill to the pre-War Melbourne Loop.  What confused him (and confuses me) is that, at the famous brow whereupon the W125s and C-types were becoming airborne in 1937, he swung the car to the left, between some trees and single-height Armco, through a pair of shallow curves to a right-hand hairpin, another short straight and a left-hander bringing the car back onto the old circut somewhere near the pits.  It actually reminded me of a flatter version of the Ancienne Douane section of Spa that was used pre-1939, when the Raidillon was constructed.  He apparently insisted that this was the pre-War layout as used in the Donington GPs, which, of course, is incorrect, but was such a section ever used in period?

 

The section of the video concerning the pre-War layout is between 8 minutes 2 seconds and 11 minutes 25:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=eGy3kRLonQQ

Edited by cpbell, 18 May 2019 - 10:53.

[Vitesse2]

As suggested below the video, that seems to be a confusion with the 1935 layout. The original Melbourne Corner was just before the crest, but the one he drove round was the one built for the 1937 extension. These maps (which I think originally came from 'The Racing 1500s') aren't 100% accurate, but they do demonstrate how the confusion might have arisen - the start line didn't move between those two iterations.:

 

[cpbell]

As suggested below the video, that seems to be a confusion with the 1935 layout. The original Melbourne Corner was just before the crest, but the one he drove round was the one built for the 1937 extension. These maps (which I think originally came from 'The Racing 1500s') aren't 100% accurate, but they do demonstrate how the confusion might have arisen - the start line didn't move between those two iterations.:

 

I'm not referrng to the position of the Melbourne Hairpin itself - he went right to the 1937 end of the current asphalt - I'm referring to when he got to the brow of the hill after the hairpin on the return section, just short of the line, he turns sharp left, through a right-left, then a 180 degree right-hander and finally through a left back onto the old pit straight.

Edited by cpbell, 18 May 2019 - 11:49.

[Vitesse2]

Yes, I realise that. But the (unspoken) assumption in the video seems to be that the start line was moved and that whatever that route is - possibly something built by the army or an old estate road - is actually the 1935 Red Gate Corner; bear in mind that the original (1931) Red Gate was a right-hander and it then changed to being a left-hander, so the assumption may be that the 1935 and 1937 Red Gates are in different positions. Which they're not!

[cpbell]

Yes, I realise that. But the (unspoken) assumption in the video seems to be that the start line was moved and that whatever that route is - possibly something built by the army or an old estate road - is actually the 1935 Red Gate Corner; bear in mind that the original (1931) Red Gate was a right-hander and it then changed to being a left-hander, so the assumption may be that the 1935 and 1937 Red Gates are in different positions. Which they're not!

Ah I see - apologies.  I did woder whether the suggestion was that Red Gate might have been there, but I dissmissed it.  Seems a possible source of confusion, though surely the position of the hill itself would suggest that the left-hander he used couldn't possibly be any one of the versions of Red Gate corner!

Edited by cpbell, 18 May 2019 - 12:30.

[RobMk2a]

https://www.chaters....rk-the-pioneers

 

John Bailie has written a book on Donington. 

 

Rob 
 

[Vitesse2]

This is a more detailed - and contemporaneous - 1937-39 circuit map, which was published in race programmes for spectator use. No indication of any sort of road - or even a path - in that area. I'm pretty sure that route would have been blocked by the grandstands, which were dismantled in late 1939. So I think that must have been built either by the army or Tom Wheatcroft! Unfortunately the historic imagery on Google Earth only goes back to 1999 ...

 

[cpbell]

This is a more detailed - and contemporaneous - 1937-39 circuit map, which was published in race programmes for spectator use. No indication of any sort of road - or even a path - in that area. I'm pretty sure that route would have been blocked by the grandstands, which were dismantled in late 1939. So I think that must have been built either by the army or Tom Wheatcroft! Unfortunately the historic imagery on Google Earth only goes back to 1999 ...

 

I tried to modify that map in MS Paint to show the approximate position of the 'detour', then realised that saved files on my laptop couldn't be pinned to my post!  I agree thoroughly WRT the history of that section of road, though the presence of single-height Armco suggests to me that it might have been used for something in the early stages after TW bought the site?

Edited by cpbell, 18 May 2019 - 13:10.

[cpbell]

https://www.chaters....rk-the-pioneers

 

John Bailie has written a book on Donington. 

 

Rob 
 

Rather expensive for me, unfortunately!

[Doug Nye]

I believe I detect nonsense here...

 

DCN

[cpbell]

I believe I detect nonsense here...

 

DCN

Not in any of my posts I trust, Doug?

[Duc-Man]

How can that be a contemporaneous 1937-39 circuit map when it clearly shows Tom Wheatcroft’s Donington Collection?

Clearly that map has been ‘doctored’ to show the newly re-opened modern Donington circuit layout.

 

It seems to be well 'doctored' since it also shows the current circuit. That's propably more period correct:

[Tim Murray]

The link below matches the modern map with earlier ones. In this case the match is with the OS 1:25,000 series dated 1937-1961. As can be seen, there was a road in the vicinity of the loop the BMW drives round in the video clip, but it’s a single road, not a loop, so presumably not part of any circuit extension.

https://maps.nls.uk/...0&right=BingHyb

[cpbell]

The link below matches the modern map with earlier ones. In this case the match is with the OS 1:25,000 series dated 1937-1961. As can be seen, there was a road in the vicinity of the loop the BMW drives round in the video clip, but it’s a single road, not a loop, so presumably not part of any circuit extension.

https://maps.nls.uk/...0&right=BingHyb

Thanks - that suggests that it is a later addition, using an existing road.

[Doug Nye]

What utter BS!

 

That so-called safety-car driver must have been having a really bad day...  

 

Not only was his driving demonstrably poor, so was his alleged historical knowledge of the Donington Park circuit.  As an American F1 World Champion friend of mine would sometimes exclaim: "What a CROCK...!" - leaving the rest of that phrase unsaid...

 

DCN

[BRG]

Isn't that just the area that was tarmacced to accomodate the big market that they used to hold (or maybe still do)?  It is used for for the circuit based stage rallies that they hold during the off-season, which may be why they lined it with armco.

[cpbell]

Isn't that just the area that was tarmacced to accomodate the big market that they used to hold (or maybe still do)?  It is used for for the circuit based stage rallies that they hold during the off-season, which may be why they lined it with armco.

Thanks BRG - makes sense!

[PayasYouRace]

So the safety car driver was mistaken about the route the track took. Not really a big deal. The video itself doubts the driver's claim. I don't expect a safety car driver to be an expert on historic track layouts. He's probably been told the track turned left after the crest and assumed it was the loop of road that now exists there, not realising that the old track is actually now the entrance road to the paddock, and remarkably appears to still be marked out in the paddock by the looks of the current images. That square complex of buildings between the old and new Melbourne loops probably doesn't help by breaking up the continuity of the old track.

[cpbell]

So the safety car driver was mistaken about the route the track took. Not really a big deal. The video itself doubts the driver's claim. I don't expect a safety car driver to be an expert on historic track layouts. He's probably been told the track turned left after the crest and assumed it was the loop of road that now exists there, not realising that the old track is actually now the entrance road to the paddock, and remarkably appears to still be marked out in the paddock by the looks of the current images. That square complex of buildings between the old and new Melbourne loops probably doesn't help by breaking up the continuity of the old track.

I'm being careful as you're a Moderator here, but entering the Nostagia Forum, particularly in a thread that Doug (Nye) has posted in and suggesting that absolute historical accuracy isn't important might not have been the best idea!  This sort of seemingly unimportant nuance is what this forum loves.

[Tim Murray]

Sorry Chris, but I think you’re misinterpreting PaYR’s post. I don’t think he’s suggesting that historical accuracy is unimportant, but merely that the BMW driver has somehow got the wrong end of the stick with regard to the old track layout.

I’ve been trying to work out exactly how the grandstand (built in 1934) fitted in with the details on the OS map I linked to in post 14. Was the road marked on that map on the west or the east side of the grandstand, or did the grandstand straddle the road? The photos in WB’s Donington history and Chris Hilton’s Hitler’s Grands Prix in England don’t help at all.

[Paul Taylor]

1963 Ordinance Survey map has a little more detail. Direct link: https://i.postimg.cc...x2nJk/dony2.jpg

 

Edited by Paul Taylor, 19 May 2019 - 07:06.

[cpbell]

Sorry Chris, but I think you’re misinterpreting PaYR’s post. I don’t think he’s suggesting that historical accuracy is unimportant, but merely that the BMW driver has somehow got the wrong end of the stick with regard to the old track layout.

I’ve been trying to work out exactly how the grandstand (built in 1934) fitted in with the details on the OS map I linked to in post 14. Was the road marked on that map on the west or the east side of the grandstand, or did the grandstand straddle the road? The photos in WB’s Donington history and Chris Hilton’s Hitler’s Grands Prix in England don’t help at all.

Apologies to PaYR - I thought he was having a 'go' at DCN for his reaction to the inaccuracy of the Safety Car driver.    By the way, I've informed Hermann, the chap behind Circuits of the Past, and he hs told me that the Donington people also concluded that the official in question was incorrect.

[Doug Nye]

....Aaah - that's good news...

 

I first visited the Park with Jenks, Geoff Goddard and new owner Tom Wheatcroft on the day news broke that Rolls-Royce had gone bust, thanks largely to the RB211 engine development over-spend disaster.  That appears to have been Feb 4, 1971 - under that previous useless regime of Grocer Heath. I was fascinated to find amongst the deep undergrowth on that desperately neglected abandoned MT base the overgrown, part-collapsed and rotting remains of the old pre-war startline grandstand, tucked back on the level section between the Melbourne Hump and Redgate Corner.  

 

Sadly Tom had hardly a conservationist bone in his body - much less an adequately conservationist thought in his bullet-hard head - and within relatively few months almost everything less substantial than the most obvious remnants of the Stone bridge would vanish beneath 1970s Telly-Tubbyland-standard redevelopment...  That was a pity, though I agreed with Wheatie that it was vastly better than having no revived Donington Park race circuit at all.

 

It is really sad now - for me - to see the line of the historic old Melbourne Loop so mutilated by large-area asphalt surfacing. But there are many more examples of such obliterative 'thinking' in many areas of the modern site there today...

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 19 May 2019 - 11:46.