12 replies to this topic

[TerryS]

I see that Lotus 49 Chassis # R4 is for sale.

There seems some confusion over whether this car "exists".

On Allen Brown's Old Racing Cars site he states "Destroyed by fire 1968"

You would think that was the end of it.

https://racecarsdire...eam-lotus-49-r4

Read the waffle in the sales spiel in the ad.

It seems nothing was done for 20 years and then action started. Why wait 20 years?

Is there anything of the original R4 in this car?

[Allen Brown]

Terry is referring to this page:
https://www.oldracin...s.com/lotus/49/

The original R4 was destroyed in a fire at Walker's workshop in 1968, and the car that is being advertised did not exist until 1997. The right to recreate the car may well have been given to a mechanic and then sold as described to Wheatcroft and then to David McL, but if you use Denis Jenkinson's highly-respected definitions (Directory of Historic Racing Cars, Aston Publications 1987), this is, at best, a "Resurrection". The restorer who was commissioned to recreate the car in 1997 went through Wheaty's stores and found a large amount of parts, some of which would presumably have come to him when Tom bought Walker's 49B R7. Whether any of them were ever a part of R4 would be difficult to establish with any certainty.

I think the only confusion is the meaning of the word "rebuild".

[Red Socks]

Far be it for me to comment on Allen Browns words but it does seem to me that his use of the word ''Original '' when referring to R4 is unnecessary and his description of the builder of the new car as a ''restorer'' would seem to give a new meaning to restoration given that R4 was totally destroyed in the Pipbrook fire.

[2F-001]

I read Allen's use of "restorer" as a description of the principal activity of the person entrusted with the work, rather than an appreciation of the project itself. To my mind, this car falls somewhere between 'ressurection' and 'recreation' - and, to be honest, rather nearer to the latter.

Some might refer to it as a replica, but there is at least a traceable lineage of its identity, if not the material.

 

In the link given by Terry, there is mention that the car ought to be in Walker livery. Given the history of the (original) R4 (ref Theme Lotus, I would have expected a new owner might be more drawn to a pre-Walker works livery.

Edited by 2F-001, 20 May 2019 - 15:07.

[Charlieman]

I read Allen's use of "restorer" as a description of the principal activity of the person entrusted with the work, rather than an appreciation of the project itself. To my mind, this car falls somewhere between 'ressurection' and 'recreation' - and, to be honest, rather nearer to the latter.

I think it is appropriate to consider the DSJ definitions for Resurrection and Re-creation, with Resurrection implying that more of the original car existed in the "new" car than for a Re-creation. In this case, Rob Walker was the owner of the remains of the substantive car and of some spare/used R4 parts which were not incinerated. Had the car been rebuilt in period, there would have been no question that the "new" car was R4 (or R4/II owing to the new chassis).

 

Owing to the continuous ownership trail of the original R4 and components which had been associated with R4 before cremation, I consider the car a Resurrection. It has a much stronger claim to its identity than many cars built around spares. 

 

Credit is due to the sellers for their open description of the car's provenance.

[Red Socks]

I suspect that if you had asked Mr Walker the day after the fire whether he still had the 49 he would have told you it was totally destroyed in the fire and if there was an insurance claim he would have said the same thing.

At that point the car was gone, IMHO second thoughts -with  a change of motive perhaps- for me do not work.

He had a car and he lost it in a fire-gone.

[BRG]

One thing is for sure.  

It ain't R4.

 

Edit: Ooo, that rhymes

Edited by BRG, 20 May 2019 - 18:01.

[Doug Nye]

If I recall correctly a 'replacement' monocoque tub was built initially for the R4 resurrection, but it was skinned in an inappropriate grade of aluminium, which meant it displayed the torsional rigidity of a wet bus ticket.  Another specialist then either reskinned that first attempt - or junked it and started again - and so this Phoenix-live tribute band known as R4 is around potentially to perform for us today.  

 

I don't abhor it.  Somebody will love it.  It definitely has a value.  But at what level - hmmmm...

 

DCN

[SJ Lambert]

It’s back...

https://www.motorspo...s-49-formula-1/

[arttidesco]

It’s back...

https://www.motorspo...s-49-formula-1/

 

I know one should not snigger, but one wonders what Damon's Dad Graham was doing while Jim Clarks team mate Damon Hill was racing a Lotus 49 in the 1967 Dutch GP ;-)

[Tim Murray]

That bit about Damon is about as believable as most of the rest of the blurb.

[Pullman99]

That bit about Damon is about as believable as most of the rest of the blurb.

Just read the blurb from Chrome Cars.   Interesting stock - they had a Dodge Charger that appeared with the Bullitt Mustang at Goodwood in 2018 - that includes an ex-Winkelmann / Rindt Lotus 59B and an unattributed Lotus 69 F2.   Any ideas?   On the Motorsport Retro site linked to above, one of the comments asks why it's not in GLTL colours (!) but I have to say from the pics that, cosmetically, it looks pretty good.

[opplock]

It's not on a par with Damon's GP debut but one of the comments on that site claims that the car appeared in GLTL colours at Levin. How did I and 15,000 other people miss that?