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Aeroscreen for Indycar for 2020


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#51 SonGoku

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 19:21

Can't believe people prefer this solution.

 

Give me the halo in F1 instead of this every day of the week. 

 

A half-as*ed aeroscreen + halo, go then full LMP1 and close the whole screen.



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#52 Marklar

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 19:28

Can't believe people prefer this solution.

Give me the halo in F1 instead of this every day of the week.

A half-as*ed aeroscreen + halo, go then full LMP1 and close the whole screen.

I assume getting out of this in case of fire without a door would have been even harder in that case, although this was my first thought as well.

As for aesthetic: it looks better than the halo, but it hides the helmet even more for the audience which is a bit of a shame.

#53 Silberpfeil

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 19:57

Unpopular opinion: I kinda dig it. Looks like a fighter jet. However, I agree that extraction might be an issue with two possible ways of getting at the driver now closed off.

IF (and that‘s a big ‘if’ IMO) they let the drivers personalise the Aeroscreen and/or the area around it, that could lead to some cool design solutions. Then again, we’ve been saying the same thing about F1 for three years, so…

#54 djparky

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 20:05

sigh...one of the things I like about Indy Car are the cars, not the halo infested crap that the FIA have ruined European single seater cars with.

now we have it on Indy Car as well. I'm all for improved driver safety but where does this end?

Edited by djparky, 24 May 2019 - 20:06.


#55 Ben1445

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 20:09

I think at this point it ends with people growing used to it and new fans not knowing any different...

#56 OO7

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 20:20

I think at this point it ends with people growing used to it and new fans not knowing any different...

Agreed.  I was absolutely against the introduction of the HALO and while it does detract from the cars visual appeal (to me), I've got to say that I'm used to it now.  Also because the passed few generations of F1 cars have been quite ugly anyway, the HALO doesn't make much of a difference.  Add a HALO to a Ferrari 641 or McLaren MP4/6 and then we've got a serious problem.



#57 phrank

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 20:24

I think at this point it ends with people growing used to it and new fans not knowing any different...

An accident like Wickens' stil could happen with device .. (corrected my error)


Edited by phrank, 24 May 2019 - 20:58.


#58 PayasYouRace

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 20:32

An accident like Wiggin's stil could happen with device ..

 

Who?



#59 Izzyeviel

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 20:34

The ugly option. But i'm all for it.

 

Will this offer head protection if a car gets up into the fence like what happened with Dan?



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#60 Izzyeviel

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 20:35

Who?

Presume he means Wickens. Who is alive and well, and having a blast racing his wheelchair around his kitchen. More than can be said of Wilson.



#61 phrank

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 20:57

Wickens I meant of course, sorry.. But I mean, there is still things to be solved in safety, it does not stop at the halo/aeroscreen, serious accidents stlil can happen



#62 P123

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 21:25

It looks futuristic.
 
D7Vmdq2W4AA2oZ3.jpg


Side on it looks a bit Lancia Stratos-ish.

#63 krapmeister

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 23:24

What I am surprised about is how good it does look considering it's a retrofit to a near 10-year old chassis.

Imagine how it could look when a new chassis is designed around the concept.

Yes that's exactly what people said about the halo when it was introduced - 'It will look a lot better when the cars are actually designed with it in mind'.

SPOILER ALERT: they were and it doesn't.

FWIW I understand all the safety arguments and reasons for it's introduction, hell I am even almost used to it now. Doesn't stop it looking like gash though.

Edited by krapmeister, 24 May 2019 - 23:30.


#64 PedroDiCasttro

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 23:38

I'm not a fan of it, but I must concede that it probably would've saved Dan Wheldon and Justin Wilson's lives.



#65 juicy sushi

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 00:23

I think that while not great, the safety arguments trump my aesthetic preferences. I think this version of a halo with a windscreen looks much better than the standard FIA halo. And I think the 2022 Indycar will probably do much better integrating it. The guy who helped with the 2018 Indycar redesign has a couple of suggestions:
https://twitter.com/...7269450753?s=21
https://twitter.com/...6775217152?s=21

Edited by juicy sushi, 25 May 2019 - 00:23.


#66 Andrew Hope

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 01:58

My stance remains the same as ever:

I am NOT against safety.

I'm against turning open-wheel racing into sports car racing, when that already exists.

#67 FPV GTHO

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 02:13

Yes that's exactly what people said about the halo when it was introduced - 'It will look a lot better when the cars are actually designed with it in mind'.

SPOILER ALERT: they were and it doesn't.

FWIW I understand all the safety arguments and reasons for it's introduction, hell I am even almost used to it now. Doesn't stop it looking like gash though.


Indycar has alot more freedom of course to style their car how they see fit.

#68 RacingGreen

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 02:14

sigh...one of the things I like about Indy Car are the cars, not the halo infested crap that the FIA have ruined European single seater cars with.

now we have it on Indy Car as well. I'm all for improved driver safety but where does this end?

 

The trouble with risk management is there is always one more risk. A one in a thousand risk, a one in a million risk, a one in a billion risk. It NEVER ends. At some point you have to say this is an acceptable level of risk. Otherwise it can only end with motor racing being considered to have too many dangers inherently and we will be reduced to just having remote controlled cars with AI's racing each other with no spectators allowed near the circuit either just in case they crash and bits fly into the crowd. I'll switching off long before then of course. 

As it is I think I'll try and catch a feed of the Isle of Man TT this weekend and watch some guys who still race on real public roads just like in the old days. I suggest everyone here tries to watch some too and then come back to this discussion about acceptable levels of risk because if that is still acceptable to those guys why are we even discussing this antiseptic trash that single seater racing has become. 



#69 juicy sushi

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 02:45

My stance remains the same as ever:

I am NOT against safety.

I'm against turning open-wheel racing into sports car racing, when that already exists.

I don’t see how this does.

#70 juicy sushi

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 02:47

The trouble with risk management is there is always one more risk. A one in a thousand risk, a one in a million risk, a one in a billion risk. It NEVER ends. At some point you have to say this is an acceptable level of risk. Otherwise it can only end with motor racing being considered to have too many dangers inherently and we will be reduced to just having remote controlled cars with AI's racing each other with no spectators allowed near the circuit either just in case they crash and bits fly into the crowd. I'll switching off long before then of course.
As it is I think I'll try and catch a feed of the Isle of Man TT this weekend and watch some guys who still race on real public roads just like in the old days. I suggest everyone here tries to watch some too and then come back to this discussion about acceptable levels of risk because if that is still acceptable to those guys why are we even discussing this antiseptic trash that single seater racing has become.

Not everyone has the same risk tolerance. You pay your money, take your chances, and vote with your feet.

Edited by juicy sushi, 25 May 2019 - 02:47.


#71 Wuzak

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 04:12

The trouble with risk management is there is always one more risk. A one in a thousand risk, a one in a million risk, a one in a billion risk. It NEVER ends. At some point you have to say this is an acceptable level of risk. Otherwise it can only end with motor racing being considered to have too many dangers inherently and we will be reduced to just having remote controlled cars with AI's racing each other with no spectators allowed near the circuit either just in case they crash and bits fly into the crowd. I'll switching off long before then of course. 

As it is I think I'll try and catch a feed of the Isle of Man TT this weekend and watch some guys who still race on real public roads just like in the old days. I suggest everyone here tries to watch some too and then come back to this discussion about acceptable levels of risk because if that is still acceptable to those guys why are we even discussing this antiseptic trash that single seater racing has become. 

 

3 riders died during the 2018 event, 3 more in 2017, 4 in 2016. A total of 149 in TT races and practice, and a total of 258 for all events.

 

I've only found 2 deaths for spectators, both in the same accident n 2007. 

 

I believe that there also have been deaths to non-compeitors during race weekends after the circuit is re-opened to the public. No idea how many.

 

Is 2 to 3 deaths per year in official competition an acceptable level of risk? Years without at least one fatal accident are rare (I see 2 years in the past 20), so it would seem that the risk in 2019 is the same as it was in 2000, or 1980.



#72 Widefoot2

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 06:23

Two things about the Indycar solution:

 

1) It's going to change airbox design, and perhaps location requirements.  I wonder what CFD has indicated, but I'd guess at the least there'll be a lot of tumble from the top edge of the screen into the cockpit and towards the current airbox.  Might buffet the driver a fair bit, may require fairings as we see on some of the F1 halos.

 

2) Perhaps there's a way to integrate flat film video screens on the rear side bracing and small cameras on the inside to create "virtual" images of the driver's helmet and upper torso. Wouldn't add much weight or affect aero significantly, and would provide a bit of the old exposed driver look, at least from the side.  They could also be used to give position and lap information interspersed with the cockpit view.  Of course, inevitably they'd be used for advertising too...

 

There's a lot of other impacts like from greater weight than the F1 Halo, more questions about driver in/egress, rubber, oil and water streaks, etc.  At least the last may be manageable by use of some of the hyper-slick coatings that are now available (like https://www.neicorpo...i-ice-coatings/), but some may require reapplication after every race.

 

Having watched a driver die right in front of me at Watkins Glen in 1974 due to submarining under Armco, I approve.  And from an aesthetic viewpoint I like this better than the F1 Halo.


Edited by Widefoot2, 25 May 2019 - 06:23.


#73 RacingGreen

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 06:37

3 riders died during the 2018 event, 3 more in 2017, 4 in 2016. A total of 149 in TT races and practice, and a total of 258 for all events.

 

I've only found 2 deaths for spectators, both in the same accident n 2007. 

 

I believe that there also have been deaths to non-compeitors during race weekends after the circuit is re-opened to the public. No idea how many.

 

Is 2 to 3 deaths per year in official competition an acceptable level of risk? Years without at least one fatal accident are rare (I see 2 years in the past 20), so it would seem that the risk in 2019 is the same as it was in 2000, or 1980.

 

Clearly it is for the competitors who decide to enter otherwise the event would have stopped years ago. I as a spectator am not deciding what is an acceptable risk on their behalf and the organizers are continuing to allow them that option. I'm sure many compete for the buzz they get taking part in such an extreme event, just as many other extreme sports attract their own following of dare devils.

Meanwhile across the pond drivers at Indy are currently accepting their own level of risk taking part in the 500 while not having an aero-screen. IIRC there were even three more who wanted to take part than are being allowed to start and were bumped off the grid. This is an option that will soon be denied to them. Whether that is a good or bad thing is up to your own judgement and has already been discussed.



#74 FPV GTHO

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 06:51

Two things about the Indycar solution:

1) It's going to change airbox design, and perhaps location requirements. I wonder what CFD has indicated, but I'd guess at the least there'll be a lot of tumble from the top edge of the screen into the cockpit and towards the current airbox. Might buffet the driver a fair bit, may require fairings as we see on some of the F1 halos.


IndyCar doesn't run a traditional airbox though, so I think they're fairly protected from issues already.

#75 Nonesuch

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 07:35

I think at this point it ends with people growing used to it and new fans not knowing any different...

 

That's a bit of an oversimplification. The "people" who grow used to it might only be a part of the existing audience, while others tune out. Similarly, the series' potential to attract new fans might be decreased by the cars looking like this.

 

You can't measure these things very well, and even if you could it's taking place in the context (discussed elsewhere) of decreasing interest across the board, so it's something opponents will say is a Big Deal and proponents will suggest is actually not all that important. :p



#76 mikeC

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 07:47

... and what's the visibilty going to be like when the screen is splattered with oil, dead flies, a few rain drops, and then the car turns directly into the setting sun? Where are the windscreen washers and wipers?



#77 FPV GTHO

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 07:56

... and what's the visibilty going to be like when the screen is splattered with oil, dead flies, a few rain drops, and then the car turns directly into the setting sun? Where are the windscreen washers and wipers?


There'll be tear offs for the screen just like the helmet viser.

#78 Victor

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 07:56

Not a fan of it.
It's an halo covered with a screen.

Wich is even worse as you won't even see a glimpise of the driver helmet anymore. (Beacause of the reflections)

That's not a problem. Drivers no longer have customized helmets. I remember when I could identify Hamilton's car for his yellow helmet... 



#79 Ben1445

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 08:01

That's a bit of an oversimplification. The "people" who grow used to it might only be a part of the existing audience, while others tune out. Similarly, the series' potential to attract new fans might be decreased by the cars looking like this.

 

You can't measure these things very well, and even if you could it's taking place in the context (discussed elsewhere) of decreasing interest across the board, so it's something opponents will say is a Big Deal and proponents will suggest is actually not all that important. :p

Yeah, agreed. I just don't see how the direction of racing safety is going any other direction now so it really leaves only two options; get used to it or stop watching. 

 

If people want to stop watching F1/Indy/Single-seaters because we now have increased head protection, sure, go ahead. Personally I think that's really petty but it seems to matter a lot to some so what am I to do? 

 

I've had non-motorsport tell me point blank that I'm mad (and not in a good way) for watching motorsport after Wheldon, Simonsen, Bianchi and Wilson, so obviously not everyone out there is happy to watch needlessly dangerous sports. So there's that angle to consider. 

 

If new people don't know any different then I don't see how Indy's solution is going to put them off. It looks like a jet fighter, and that's before they've designed a chassis around it from scratch. If we go down this Indy route in single seater (bespoke) designs then before long they will just look natural, futuristic and cool.



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#80 PayasYouRace

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 08:35

My stance remains the same as ever:

I am NOT against safety.

I'm against turning open-wheel racing into sports car racing, when that already exists.

 

Come back when they add a roof, a passenger seat, headlights and fully covered wheels. Things that sports cars have.



#81 screamingV16

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 08:46

Can't believe I'm saying this, but the halo looks much better :drunk: .  Amusing to see posters who are of the opinion the halo looks bad saying this looks better.  It's an an extra chunky halo with glazing  :rotfl: .



#82 PayasYouRace

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 08:58

I continue to be astonished over how many people find what is essentially an aesthetic choice to be so significant in their enjoyment of the sport, and not particularly impressed at those who regard others who have different aesthetic tastes to be so wrong in their eyes.

 

Case in point:

 

 

Can't believe I'm saying this, but the halo looks much better :drunk: .  Amusing to see posters who are of the opinion the halo looks bad saying this looks better.  It's an an extra chunky halo with glazing  :rotfl: .



#83 krapmeister

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 12:28

Indycar has alot more freedom of course to style their car how they see fit.

 

Well being spec of course they can do what they want with it. IMO it looks too big for the current car - I can't see it looking good proportionally unless they increase the physical size of the cars. Doubt they can decrease the size of the halo/aeroscreen beyond what they are now.


Edited by krapmeister, 25 May 2019 - 12:32.


#84 TheGoldenStoffel

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 12:43

Well being spec of course they can do what they want with it. IMO it looks too big for the current car - I can't see it looking good proportionally unless they increase the physical size of the cars. Doubt they can decrease the size of the halo/aeroscreen beyond what they are now.

 

It will look better proportioned in road course spec with bigger wings I think.



#85 Risil

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 13:28

Do I like this more than the Halo? Probably. Not by much. It'll be a shame to lose the view of the driver in the cockpit.

And it'll be interesting as always to see how it affects the aerodynamics on the fast ovals.

#86 Nonesuch

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 13:38

If people want to stop watching F1/Indy/Single-seaters because we now have increased head protection, sure, go ahead. Personally I think that's really petty but it seems to matter a lot to some so what am I to do?

 

That's not really the case; it's the form the head protection has gotten that some - me included - find objectionable.

 

I find the Halo to be absolutely risible. I tried watching F1 with it, and really envy those who say they can look past it. I just can't. Every time I see an F1 car with a Halo my attention is instantly drawn to it find it just as ugly, silly and out of place as the first time I saw one. It's bearable on the highlights, but that's just about it.

 

I've had non-motorsport tell me point blank that I'm mad (and not in a good way) for watching motorsport after Wheldon, Simonsen, Bianchi and Wilson, so obviously not everyone out there is happy to watch needlessly dangerous sports. So there's that angle to consider.

 

That's true. There are also people who don't want to watch now but might if series change. It's a tough balance. :up:
 

... that's before they've designed a chassis around it from scratch. If we go down this Indy route in single seater (bespoke) designs then before long they will just look natural, futuristic and cool.

 

Not sure if I believe that. F1 cars in 2018 didn't look better with the Halo than the F1 cars that tested it in 2016 and 2017. Even the all-new FE car has the Halo bolted on in a way that hits all the aesthetic complaints people have about it.

 

There aren't many - perhaps any - ways to make this thing any less huge than it needs to be to be effective, and unless you make it a proper cockpit like sportscars it's always going to stick out.


Edited by Nonesuch, 25 May 2019 - 13:39.


#87 Ben1445

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 14:18

Not sure if I believe that. F1 cars in 2018 didn't look better with the Halo than the F1 cars that tested it in 2016 and 2017. Even the all-new FE car has the Halo bolted on in a way that hits all the aesthetic complaints people have about it.

 

There aren't many - perhaps any - ways to make this thing any less huge than it needs to be to be effective, and unless you make it a proper cockpit like sportscars it's always going to stick out.

F1 2018 cars were basically F1 2017 cars with a halo bolted on. F1 car design is, by nature, evolutionary. They have not had any time for the fundamental chassis design to really adapt to the presence of the halo - It's only the second season of mandatory usage after all and we haven't had a big rule change yet which might be a catalyst for that evolutionary process. So I don't really accept that as evidence that even cars designed with a Halo in mind will not look good. 

 

The FE car, despite common belief, was not actually designed to have a Halo from clean sheet either. There was a delay of a number of months in the public reveal and delivery of the car to the teams because the halo had been made mandatory by the FIA and the design needed to be revised to incorporate it. Just look at the way the thing attaches at the two rear mounting points - it's definitely a retrofit, we've just never seen the car without one. So the FE Gen 2 isn't really an indicator of what a Halo would look like on a clean sheet design either. 

 

When we see FE's Gen3 (2022) or IndyCar's next-gen chassis (when is that due, does anyone know?) I think that's when we will really see a true clean-sheet Halo/Aeroscreen equipped design. F1 will probably still have an element of evolutionary design for some time yet, especially if the 2021 rules are no earth-shakers. Who knows what they're going to do. Perhaps only a second generation Halo device can help them. 

 

So really it is FE and IndyCar have the chance to significantly shape the aesthetic design of top-level single seaters with their next-gen chassis. 



#88 BalanceUT

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 14:21

I'm lost for words at the number of people that think it looks better than the already ghastly halo. I mean, realllllly?

 

If you put turd sprinkles on a turd it's still a turd. 

So, you are the guy who looks at the turd and not the sprinkles??? Jeez...  :cat:



#89 screamingV16

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 15:29

I continue to be astonished over how many people find what is essentially an aesthetic choice to be so significant in their enjoyment of the sport, and not particularly impressed at those who regard others who have different aesthetic tastes to be so wrong in their eyes.

 

Case in point:

 

You obviously lead a very sheltered life then  ;) . If you read carefully you'll note that I didn't say anyone was necessarily wrong, afterall aethestics are subjective.



#90 DrArrow

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 18:11

I've always liked to watch open cockpit racing, because there is something sleek and dynamic how the cars look and I saw the drivers working. I find the current Dallara in Indycar as one of the most beautiful open cockpit cars ever built. This aeroscreen/halo in my view completely obliterates the sleek lines of current cars and as anyone can find my opinion as primitive, I won't be able to watch 3 hours race looking at cars, which I find ugly as hell. I dropped F1 because of the HALO and came (back) to Indycar by combination of looks/true racing. Now that this will be gone, it is over for me - I am probably from some old generation and this quest for absolute safety goes beyond me. I still think that even in its current form Indycars are much safer than downhill skiing or even cycling, not to mention motorbikes or go-karts, which I drive as an amateur. 



#91 PayasYouRace

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 19:02

You obviously lead a very sheltered life then  ;) . If you read carefully you'll note that I didn't say anyone was necessarily wrong, afterall aethestics are subjective.


No you just laughed at those who don’t share your view.

#92 coppilcus

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 21:59

Dear lord...

Just ban open cockpit racing cars all together and stop the madness!

#93 paulb

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 23:18

I too am disappointed by the aesthetics of this concept. I guess I will have to enjoy even more the current ”good old days”, continuing with tomorrows Indy 500. 



#94 noikeee

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 23:26

I like it.



#95 Laminar

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 23:29

Its so sad how the risk adversity movement is slowly ruining motorsport. Already killed off F1 and the rest are following. All logic and common sense is thrown out the window. Sad Sad.



#96 Mat13

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Posted 26 May 2019 - 06:49

Dear lord...

Just ban open cockpit racing cars all together and stop the madness!


Does that count on my Motor Racing head protection bingo card?

#97 rdebourbon

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Posted 26 May 2019 - 06:54

Its so sad how the risk adversity movement is slowly ruining motorsport. Already killed off F1 and the rest are following. All logic and common sense is thrown out the window. Sad Sad.


So what are your equally safe and realistic alternatives to making racing safer?

I think ruining is a strong word. Is it ruined when drivers are less likely to die in accidents? Anyone who has watched early motorsport and/or documentaries like the killing years and doesn't agree that motorsport needs to continually strive to be safer is just mad IMO.

#98 F1matt

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Posted 26 May 2019 - 07:12

In theory could drivers go back to wearing open face crash helmets?

#99 Ben1445

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Posted 26 May 2019 - 07:38

Basically an Aeroscreen ...

http%3A%2F%2Fd2i8ejbvsgsqtt.cloudfront.n



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#100 Laminar

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Posted 26 May 2019 - 07:52

So what are your equally safe and realistic alternatives to making racing safer?

I think ruining is a strong word. Is it ruined when drivers are less likely to die in accidents? Anyone who has watched early motorsport and/or documentaries like the killing years and doesn't agree that motorsport needs to continually strive to be safer is just mad IMO.

 

The sport was already safe enough. If you don't believe in that concept then  you fail to realize the end result of motorsport, which will mean all excitement removed as we have seen already imo. If you keep going the cars will eventually look like LMP cars and be racing on car parks with painted on curbs (basically what we have already).  It's nice to talk about drivers being 100% safe but you fail to consider the consequences for the sport to get to that point. Its boring, and nobody watches motorsport to be bored.