43 replies to this topic

[ExFlagMan]

There have been a couple of threads regarding the use of Safety Cars (real or virtual) here recently - if fact the topic seems to arise nearly every GP.

Many posters complain about various aspects of the system but very few come up any ideas of a solution.

 

Maybe it is time to rethink the solution.

 

The problem.

Race cars have/cause 'incidents', whether that is debris on the track, cars pulling off with mechanical problems or full blown accidents.

 

Each type of incident requires handling by the marshals and race control depending on the situation.

 

For many many years these where all covered by yellow flags or as a last resort, a race stoppage.

 

Unfortunatly, it seems that F1 drivers (unlike drivers is most other lower categories) can no longer be trusted to drive sensibly under yellow flag conditions, so as a result we have added SC and VSC 'solutions', both of which come with disadvantages.

 

Marshals need as safe an environment as possible when going trackside to deal with an incident, although it is in the drivers interest for marshals to feel safe whilst they deal with the incident as quickly and safely as possible.

 

The SC solution is disliked on here for many reasons.

 

1. It confers an advantage to some drivers over others.
2. It neutralises the race for too long, with cars crawling round losing tyre temperature etc. and then the back markers being waved round.
3. In its current implementation it can in itself create further unsafe situations - cars speeding to catch the back of the train as in the Perez case.

 

The advantage from the marshals POV is that it should give them a decent interval to deal with the problem without the risk of cars passing at speed and/or unexpectedly appearing.  This is vital if checking/clearing debris/gravel.

 

The VSC can have its uses, for example if the incident is a simple pull-off that can be dealt with by a bit of marshal 'muscle' to push it to a safer location and should also be effective if a course vehicle needs to be deployed to tow/lift a stranded car.

 
It is however not effective for clearing up debris/gravel as it does not give a lengthy window to do the work, and hence just prolongs the clean-up period.

 

Some drivers complain that they are losing tyre temperatures under the VSC.

 

Is there a better solution?

 

One idea I have had is to scrap the SC and enhance the current VSC solution to handle the majority of incidents, by making the VSC system more dynamic (a DVSC) and capable of handling all bar the most serious situations where the only solution is a Red Flag.

 

Most of the elements to implement it are already in place, it probably only really requires some additional software.

 

When the DVSC is deployed the system stores the current time intervals between each driver.

 

All drivers are given a basic sector delta time to slow them down, this can be then be managed to slow the cars as required when approaching and traversing the danger zones.

 

The system then gives each car individual delta times round the rest of the circuit that quickly and safely bring them up to the back of the train.

 

The speed of the train can then be managed as required to enable the incident(s) to be cleared up as quickly as possible.

 

Once the incident is clear the train can be speeded up if required to allow the tyres to be warmed up. 

Each cars delta is then adjusted to reset the original gaps so that they cross the green flag line without losing/gaining any advantage.

 

Advantages of such a system.

 

RC can control speeds as required without unduly slowing the cars.
It eliminates the need for the SC to pick up the leader.
It eliminates the need for wave rounds for lapped cars.
No advantage/disadvantage is introduced - provided the drivers follow the system correctly.
It should help reduce the no of neutralised laps 

 

It also needs changes to the pit rules during the DVSC period - cars can pit if necessary but are not allowed to exit the pit until the end of the train passes and only have a short window must be waiting at the pit exit before the train passes.  Cars that have pitted do not get repositioned for the restart but start at the back of the train.

 

Throwing it out here for discussion.

[midgrid]

Whilst this is a good idea in theory, I think we must acknowledge that the current practice of using the safety car is also as a "show car", so most viewers and other stakeholders in the sport would be loath to have a system that spaces the cars out again after bunching them together in the first place.

 

For me, a simpler solution to a number of the current problems would be:

 

• Close the pit-lane during VSC/SC periods.  Only cars with damage are allowed to pit (this could be judged by using the following criterion: would the car receive the black-and-orange flag from race control if the driver did not pit of his own accord?).  This used to be the case, but was abandoned due to the possibility of cars running dry during such a situation, which is no longer an issue.
• Lapped cars either hold position or are dropped to the back of the queue in a SC situation.  This avoids delays waiting for drivers to unlap themselves, and/or dangerous situations that could arise from them attempting to catch the queue having done so.

[Lights]

Guilty as charged. I've indeed often complained about the current SC system and the effects it has, without really coming up with alternative solutions.

 

For me, a simpler solution to a number of the current problems would be:

• Close the pit-lane during VSC/SC periods.  Only cars with damage are allowed to pit (this could be judged by using the following criterion: would the car receive the black-and-orange flag from race control if the driver did not pit of his own accord?).  This used to be the case, but was abandoned due to the possibility of cars running dry during such a situation, which is no longer an issue.
• Lapped cars either hold position or are dropped to the back of the queue in a SC situation.  This avoids delays waiting for drivers to unlap themselves, and/or dangerous situations that could arise from them attempting to catch the queue having done so.

 

I like this. The main problem is indeed the pitlane being open, it attracts all kinds of drama.

And IMO lapped cars shouldn't be 'waved through' under any possible neutralization system.

[Atreiu]

This idea seems too worried with conserving everything as equal as possible. It'd make sense if F1 ran time trials, or still had refueling, but now I'm not convinced.

 

Track position is its own advantage. Just let the SC pick up the leader. Drivers will all follow in line or not if they take pit stops. Cool tyres, just deal with it. The drivers have all the help in the world to keep their cars within ideal operating parametres. Let things not be perfect for once.

 

I don't even like the VSC, to be honest. First because it's not a good sight to have them go so slow for no apparent reason. And second because I don't care for deltas. The SC is safer anyhow. Let there be as many as necessary.

[Fatgadget]

The reason why F1 is declining as a spectator sport because you have to use your brain too much..Calculate deltas and what not  - And why such and such strategy/tyre compound  allocation  have  to be used and ..different engine modes etc etc etc..Its just too much  for the casual viewer to make sense of it I reckon. Don't get me wrong, I love all the different scenarios that come into play once a race has started. I also appreciate there  lots out there who find that boring and just want to witness a balls to the wall  banzai fight from green  to checkered flag.

 

And yes, rethinking the safety car what nots will not make a blind bit of difference.

[f1paul]

OP - have you heard of slow zones? Its something that's used in endurance racing, its used in Le Mans for example.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

I believe though that with slow zones at Le Mans, they try to ensure that all cars (except maybe those that have pitted so it's a bit more awkward perhaps) pass through the slow zone the same number of times, however many times that may be. I may of course be wrong on that, but I do vaguely remember hearing that last year. Obviously not strictly an exact science, but that's what I believe they try to do as best they can.

[KWSN - DSM]

Rethink.... get rid of it.

 

[ExFlagMan]

f1paul - yes I have heard of slow zones - seems to me like yellow flag with mandatory (fixed) speed limit.

 

Seem to recall there have be a few accidents precipitated by drivers misjudging slowing down for the zones making contact - not an ideal situation when you are already dealing with an incident.

 

One disadvantage of slow zones over something like DVSC is that you cannot vary the speed through the zone to account for the severity of the incident and F1 drivers might be tempted to push to the utmost approaching the zone - OK if they are all doing it but could cause problems/arguments.

[Kalmake]

Unfortunatly, it seems that F1 drivers (unlike drivers is most other lower categories) can no longer be trusted to drive sensibly under yellow flag conditions, so as a result we have added SC and VSC 'solutions', both of which come with disadvantages.

Lower categories on the F1 ladder absolutely sees nonsensical driving by the juniors. Red Bull is trying to promote one of the worst examples to F1. Where you will see more sensible behavior have lower stakes with amateur and older drivers. If we go way back, F1 too was practically a lower category compared to now.

 

There hasn't been a recent change in driver behavior.

[cpbell]

 

Whilst this is a good idea in theory, I think we must acknowledge that the current practice of using the safety car is also as a "show car", so most viewers and other stakeholders in the sport would be loath to have a system that spaces the cars out again after bunching them together in the first place.

 

For me, a simpler solution to a number of the current problems would be:

 

• Close the pit-lane during VSC/SC periods.  Only cars with damage are allowed to pit (this could be judged by using the following criterion: would the car receive the black-and-orange flag from race control if the driver did not pit of his own accord?).  This used to be the case, but was abandoned due to the possibility of cars running dry during such a situation, which is no longer an issue.
• Lapped cars either hold position or are dropped to the back of the queue in a SC situation.  This avoids delays waiting for drivers to unlap themselves, and/or dangerous situations that could arise from them attempting to catch the queue having done so.

 

I like this concept, but would suggest replacing the closed pitlane with ExFlagMan's idea to only allow cars to leave the pit lane once the train has formed if it's a full SC (close the pit lane in the event of a VSC), which would give marshals near the pit lane exit warning to get clear before any cars that have used the pits rekoin the track.

[Heyli]

You could always try a sector VSC perhaps?

 

On the other hand, isnt some unpredictability good...? Of course some people will benefit and some are hurt by a SC, but it can also provide some nice entertainment. 

[Kalmake]

Pits should be closed during VSC for fairness sake alone. Powers that be just want to have that random mix up for the show.

Edited by Kalmake, 28 May 2019 - 11:12.

[chrcol]

I am happy with either of the ideas in first two posts.

 

The second idea much easier to implement, but first is probably superior as it maintains gaps and doesnt need a physical SC.

 

I would also add anyone driving dangerously should be treated with harshness.  Perhaps disqualification from race.

[redreni]

f1paul - yes I have heard of slow zones - seems to me like yellow flag with mandatory (fixed) speed limit.

 

Seem to recall there have be a few accidents precipitated by drivers misjudging slowing down for the zones making contact - not an ideal situation when you are already dealing with an incident.

 

One disadvantage of slow zones over something like DVSC is that you cannot vary the speed through the zone to account for the severity of the incident and F1 drivers might be tempted to push to the utmost approaching the zone - OK if they are all doing it but could cause problems/arguments.

 

I'm a big fan of slow zones. A good rule of thumb in endurance racing seems to be: full-course VSC/code 60 is good for short interventions (e.g. sending a snatch tractor to pick up a car from a gravel trap), as it slows everybody down for a short time without unduly interfering with the race. Slow zones, on the other hand, are better for longer interventions like barrier repairs, as they can be left in place for half an hour or an hour and they allow racing to continue on the part of the track that is clear.

 

There have been problems with the entry points to slow zones, but the problems are not insurmountable. Making the sector before the slow zone a yellow flag zone has helped, as drivers can slow down safely in that zone without fear of being overtaken. You can also bring down the speed in steps. So in VLN, for example, if there was an incident in sector 77, sector 77 would be an 80km/h slow zone, sector 76 would be a 120km/h slow zone, and sector 75 would be a yellow flag zone.

 

It's very cut and dried if somebody overtakes or goes too fast in any of those zones. F1 should have no problems policing such a system, if it chose to adopt one.

[RacingGreen]

The safety car works to bunch cars and allow marshals to clear broken cars out of the way safely. We don't need a VSC or DVSC or anything else that relies on a computer calculating sector timing screen and is therefore harder for the spectators, all we need is the marshals to get the rubbish cleared off the track so that the cars can go racing again. I know it's not fair on the guy who has built up a 30 second lead but that's racing these days I'm afraid, let's just accept that it isn't perfect and get racing again.

 

We also don't need to delay the restart while any lapped cars un-lap themselves and get out of the way of the leaders battle because when the race restarts there are blue flags to tell them to get out of the way anyway.

 

As for the pit lane the rule should be if you have a damaged car that was involved in the incident or maybe you are worried you may get a puncture from driving over some debris, you can pit for repairs as the pits will remain open but that doesn't count as your mandatory stop for the race so nobody would pit without a really good reason and lose track position. I would however close the pit exit and only allow cars to rejoin directly behind the safety car train to keep the cars all bunched together. If the safety car train isn't there then they have to wait another lap at the pit exit until a marshal releases them. That would stop having cars on the circuit chasing the safety car and getting in the way of the marshals. It would make pitting as a strategy option very unattractive, but if you really had to then you could.

Edited by RacingGreen, 29 May 2019 - 03:54.

[HP]

I like a lot of what has been said in the OP. I'd like to add: Give more power to the stewards marshalls to protect themselves.

 

At least in F1 they use GPS now. It goes through race control. If every marshall station can have a tool, which is able to show track position of cars without a huge lag, then marshalls can make also educated guesses when it is safe to get out and do their job. There also needs a warning be shown on that tool if not all cars are accounted for. So marshalls can better access the dangers.

 

And was it not just the other day when the FIA black flagged the 2 Haas because their car communication failed. So FIA has even a tool to address some rather specific circumstances and override teams if need be.

Edited by HP, 29 May 2019 - 05:32.

[ExFlagMan]

The problem with the GPS idea is that once you are away from the marshal post (eg when out on the track) you are out of contact with the system. 

 

I guess you could give each marshal a unit but do you really want those out on the track to be wandering round like teenagers in a city centre gazing intently into their I-phones.

 

Not sure it would speed things up trying to sweep gravel off the track with one hand on the broom and a screen in the other.

[pdac]

I like this concept, but would suggest replacing the closed pitlane with ExFlagMan's idea to only allow cars to leave the pit lane once the train has formed if it's a full SC (close the pit lane in the event of a VSC), which would give marshals near the pit lane exit warning to get clear before any cars that have used the pits rekoin the track.

 

No, I agree that the pit lane should be closed until the incident it cleared. The whole point of the safety car is to control/suspend the race whilst the incident is cleared up. So no need for cars to be pitting.

[ExFlagMan]

Thanks for all the comments.

 

A few replies based on the view of an ex marshal (who has been stood in the middle of the track trying to help a trapped driver whilst cars are passing).

 

The reasons for positing a DVSC solution are as follows.

 

1 - Prime objective should be to protect the marshals (and drivers) as much as possible.

2 - Often when marshals are dealing with an incident there are howls of anger that they are going out on track when cars are circulating.

3 - Every time there is a VSC/SC during the GP this board is inundated with complaints about how long it takes to clear up and resume racing.

4 - There are often also complaints about the unfairness of the SC with some drivers gaining an advantage and others losing out.  At a recent GP Lewis was also complaining the he lost time under the VSC.

 

Whilst the DVSC suggestion might need some further thought I believe that as a starting point it does go some way to achieving the above aims.

 

This idea seems too worried with conserving everything as equal as possible. It'd make sense if F1 ran time trials, or still had refueling, but now I'm not convinced.
 
Track position is its own advantage. Just let the SC pick up the leader. Drivers will all follow in line or not if they take pit stops. Cool tyres, just deal with it. The drivers have all the help in the world to keep their cars within ideal operating parameters. Let things not be perfect for once.
 
I don't even like the VSC, to be honest. First because it's not a good sight to have them go so slow for no apparent reason. And second because I don't care for deltas. The SC is safer anyhow. Let there be as many as necessary.

 

Although it may seem a low priority I believe that in some ways the 'unfairness' is at the very heart of the problem.

 

Why do drivers go too fast under yellow flags?

I would suggest that it is because they want to avoid losing out to their competitors (though for some strange reason they are not adverse to themselves gaining an advantage).  Thus the incentive to go as fast as they possibly can without being sanctioned - which is very difficult to do when there is no definition of what 'slow' means.

 

One possible way to counteract this would be to remove this incentive to go too fast by having a system that ensures that they will not lose out - which is what the DVSC idea is designed to do.
 

I'm a big fan of slow zones. A good rule of thumb in endurance racing seems to be: full-course VSC/code 60 is good for short interventions (e.g. sending a snatch tractor to pick up a car from a gravel trap), as it slows everybody down for a short time without unduly interfering with the race. Slow zones, on the other hand, are better for longer interventions like barrier repairs, as they can be left in place for half an hour or an hour and they allow racing to continue on the part of the track that is clear.
 
There have been problems with the entry points to slow zones, but the problems are not insurmountable. Making the sector before the slow zone a yellow flag zone has helped, as drivers can slow down safely in that zone without fear of being overtaken. You can also bring down the speed in steps. So in VLN, for example, if there was an incident in sector 77, sector 77 would be an 80km/h slow zone, sector 76 would be a 120km/h slow zone, and sector 75 would be a yellow flag zone.
 
It's very cut and dried if somebody overtakes or goes too fast in any of those zones. F1 should have no problems policing such a system, if it chose to adopt one.

 

The DVSC proposal would allow this scenario, with the added advantage that it would allow the speeds to be adjusted to suite the on track situation.

 

Using your example - gaps are measured as each car enters sector 75, a delta given to ensure they slow down safely to the sector 76 speed, a new delta given to reach the sector 77 speed.  At the start of sector 78 a new delta is given to exit that sector with the same gap as they entered sector 75. This would be calculated for each driver to take into account any over-speeding that may have 'accidentally' occured.
 

The safety car works to bunch cars and allow marshals to clear broken cars out of the way safely. We don't need a VSC or DVSC or anything else that relies on a computer calculating sector timing screen and is therefore harder for the spectators, all we need is the marshals to get the rubbish cleared off the track so that the cars can go racing again. I know it's not fair on the guy who has built up a 30 second lead but that's racing these days I'm afraid, let's just accept that it isn't perfect and get racing again.

 

So you would send out the SC every time the marshals need to push a broken down car into a gap in the barriers, even though it might only take less than 1 lap (possibly only 10-20 sec if the driver parked neatly as often happens) to actually move the car. 

 

Given that a SC probably takes a minimum of 3 laps to handle the situation - 1 to pick up the leader, 1 to bunch up the pack, so that the marshals can go out without cars coming round, possibly 1 or more (depending on the location of the car relative to the SC train) to move the car and then 1 to return to the pits for the restart, I would suggest that spectators would prefer a DVSC type - after all they do not need to understand (or even know about) the deltas if it  gets the cars back in action ASAP.

 

At present we have 3 different methods of controlling the cars during an incident (yellow flag zone, VSC or full SC) - I would suggest this is somewhat more confusing than any delta based system.

 

The DVSC system could replace all 3 current methods - VSC being just a longer version of the yellow flag zone system described above when there is no need to close up the train.

Edited by ExFlagMan, 29 May 2019 - 16:24.

[ArrowsLivery]

I agree that pits need to be closed during safety car periods. The reason why they are not is because the cars could theoretically run out of fuel back in the day. If somebody has serious damage, they can pit, but they’d be sent to the back of the pack.

[PlatenGlass]

Each cars delta is then adjusted to reset the original gaps so that they cross the green flag line without losing/gaining any advantage.

I generally agree with the proposal, but how long do you think this bit will take?

[ExFlagMan]

Wonder why such a fast moving series such as F1 has not managed to make the change in such a short period since 2010...

I guess they just kept it in the hope it might help spice up the action.

[Spillage]

 

Whilst this is a good idea in theory, I think we must acknowledge that the current practice of using the safety car is also as a "show car", so most viewers and other stakeholders in the sport would be loath to have a system that spaces the cars out again after bunching them together in the first place.

 

For me, a simpler solution to a number of the current problems would be:

 

• Close the pit-lane during VSC/SC periods.  Only cars with damage are allowed to pit (this could be judged by using the following criterion: would the car receive the black-and-orange flag from race control if the driver did not pit of his own accord?).  This used to be the case, but was abandoned due to the possibility of cars running dry during such a situation, which is no longer an issue.
• Lapped cars either hold position or are dropped to the back of the queue in a SC situation.  This avoids delays waiting for drivers to unlap themselves, and/or dangerous situations that could arise from them attempting to catch the queue having done so.

 

I broadly agree with this, though I'd add the caveat that the pitlane should remain open during inclement weather - so you can come in to put wets on if necessary.

[ExFlagMan]

I generally agree with the proposal, but how long do you think this bit will take?

Should be possible on the lap after the incident is cleared, just set the deltas to speed up the leaders and slow down the back markers, so a lot less time than currently required for the SC to get to the pits, especially as there is no need to wave round the lapped cars in the train.

[Collective]

This idea seems too worried with conserving everything as equal as possible. It'd make sense if F1 ran time trials, or still had refueling, but now I'm not convinced.

 

Track position is its own advantage. Just let the SC pick up the leader. Drivers will all follow in line or not if they take pit stops. Cool tyres, just deal with it. The drivers have all the help in the world to keep their cars within ideal operating parametres. Let things not be perfect for once.

 

I don't even like the VSC, to be honest. First because it's not a good sight to have them go so slow for no apparent reason. And second because I don't care for deltas. The SC is safer anyhow. Let there be as many as necessary.

 

100% this. If the concern is safety, then no unlapping and make car in pit exit follow the VSC deltas, or give it its own marshalling sector that can be double yellowed if marshals are working there. Lapped cars are just too annoying and we really want all cars bunched up fighting for position? Then keep the unlapping but give them a delta. Getting unlapped is advantageous enough, no need to wait for them.

[cpbell]

No, I agree that the pit lane should be closed until the incident it cleared. The whole point of the safety car is to control/suspend the race whilst the incident is cleared up. So no need for cars to be pitting.

What happens when a car has to slowly pit to retire, though?  Allowing the car to come to a halt on track will only prolong the Safety Car period.  Allowing a car to enter the pit lane would prevent that.

[cpbell]

 

 

 

So you would send out the SC every time the marshals need to push a broken down car into a gap in the barriers, even though it might only take less than 1 lap (possibly only 10-20 sec if the driver parked neatly as often happens) to actually move the car. 

Had we been in the position of being able to trust the drivers to follow the rules, double waved yellow flags would surely be enough.  Sadly, as you say, F1 drivers rarely slow down such they are prepared to stop in that scenario.

[pdac]

I broadly agree with this, though I'd add the caveat that the pitlane should remain open during inclement weather - so you can come in to put wets on if necessary.

 

Maybe, but ONLY for the purpose of changing to wets.

[pdac]

What happens when a car has to slowly pit to retire, though?  Allowing the car to come to a halt on track will only prolong the Safety Car period.  Allowing a car to enter the pit lane would prevent that.

 

Sorry, I meant that the pit exit is closed - anyone can come into the pits, but they cannot go back out until the incident is cleared up (they can queue up to leave, though).

[Winterapfel]

What about the slow zone? Like an electronically enforced double wave yellow: programmed to sensibly slow the car to very low speed?

[Ivanhoe]

If we close the pit during (V)SC we’ll never have this again. Keep it open, it can spice things up in this era of utter Merc domination.

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=oJf5ZT6JBYA

[ExFlagMan]

What about the slow zone? Like an electronically enforced double wave yellow: programmed to sensibly slow the car to very low speed?

Covered in post #20

[RacingGreen]

 

So you would send out the SC every time the marshals need to push a broken down car into a gap in the barriers, even though it might only take less than 1 lap (possibly only 10-20 sec if the driver parked neatly as often happens) to actually move the car. 

 

 

No, that's what yellow flags are for. Neither the VSC or your DVSA system really add anything worth the added complications they bring. All you need to do is either decide if the cars need to be slowed and bunched for a major incident, and use the full safety car procedure, or just slowed locally with yellow flags. The rest is F1 doing what F1 does best, that is making something very simple into something unnecessarily complicated. 

Edited by RacingGreen, 29 May 2019 - 19:03.

[pdac]

If we close the pit during (V)SC we’ll never have this again. Keep it open, it can spice things up in this era of utter Merc domination.

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=oJf5ZT6JBYA

 

So another advocate for any 'interesting' distraction from the idea of racing cars (because just racing cars is dull as dishwater I guess)

[noikeee]

Is this about Perez at Monaco? The only safety change needed IMO is to close the pit exit, if and only if people are working on track between the start finish line and the pit exit. Everything else stays the same, no need to touch it. Done.

We can get into a deeper debate about fairness, and tbh I do understand that point of view a bit, it's unfair and random to slash 30 second leads for no reason etc. But that's not a priority for F1 at the moment, do that and Mercedes win even more races. F1 is in need of things that create unpredictability, and I believe the current SC system helps whilst not feeling too cheap and artificial.

Edited by noikeee, 29 May 2019 - 19:40.

[ExFlagMan]

No, that's what yellow flags are for. Neither the VSC or your DVSA system really add anything worth the added complications they bring. All you need to do is either decide if the cars need to be slowed and bunched for a major incident, and use the full safety car procedure, or just slowed locally with yellow flags. The rest is F1 doing what F1 does best, that is making something very simple into something unnecessarily complicated.

If that was reality then Bianchi would still be racing today....

When was the last time you saw an F1 driver really slow down for yellow flags.

What does F1 define as 'slowing down'.

[pdac]

If that was reality then Bianchi would still be racing today....

When was the last time you saw an F1 driver really slow down for yellow flags.

What does F1 define as 'slowing down'.

 

It doesn't help when the tyres are so temperature sensitive either. There is every incentive for drivers to NOT slow down.

[ExFlagMan]

How much do they cool down for the small length of time it takes to go through the danger zone.

[RacingGreen]

If that was reality then Bianchi would still be racing today....

When was the last time you saw an F1 driver really slow down for yellow flags.

What does F1 define as 'slowing down'.

 

 

Well then let's review the sequence of events that resulted in Jules Bianchi's death: Sutil aquaplaning off on a wet part of the track, the marshals truck being dispatched to recover his car under yellow flags, Bianchi NOT slowing down after being shown the yellow flags, Bianch then losing the car himself of the same wet track that caught Sutil out etc. I think the not slowing down bit is the significant fact here. Tragic yes but as the official FIA investigation found human error. The cars already have speed limiters that they use in the pits so setting a speed limit in yellow flag areas would be easy - the technology is already there on the cars. The first yellow means you will have to slow to at least pit speeds ahead (and may even be required to stop), second yellow is the speed limit enforcement line.  Just because the stewards don't issue guidelines as to what "slowing down" means and enforce them with some sort of consistent penalty until drivers get the message doesn't mean we need another level of complicated all we need is better stewards.

Edited by RacingGreen, 29 May 2019 - 21:11.

[redreni]

No, that's what yellow flags are for. Neither the VSC or your DVSA system really add anything worth the added complications they bring. All you need to do is either decide if the cars need to be slowed and bunched for a major incident, and use the full safety car procedure, or just slowed locally with yellow flags. The rest is F1 doing what F1 does best, that is making something very simple into something unnecessarily complicated. 

 

It's interesting how race fans can watch the same things happening and draw opposite conclusions.

 

The way I see it, accidents that result in carbon fibre shards being strewn across the track are almost the only ones left that require a SC (or the OP's proposed system), because of the need to bunch up the field to provide a period of safety for the track to be cleared and then swept. I hate the SC and would always try to avoid using it wherever possible. DWY or VSC is generally fine for any recovery from the run-off areas.

 

Incidents requiring the medical car should, in my view, normally be dealt with by a red flag, especially considering that the restart procedure after a SC takes very nearly as long as a restart after a red flag. It has never sat easily with me that people giving first aid to seriously injured people have to work in an environment where the SC train continues to come past them every few minutes. I remember, for example, the ambulance that took away the mortally wounded marshal from the scene of the Villeneuve/R Schumacher accident in Melbourne in 2001, having to let the SC train overtake it as it was on its way to the medical centre.

 

So on balance I like the OP's idea if it enables debris to be cleared safely from the track without using the SC. The main attraction, for me, is that it would enable the virtual elimination of SC periods. Ideally every incident should be coverable by DWY, VSC, slow zones (if F1 had them), or the red flag procedure where necessary.

 

I would like to understand better how the OP's system would cope with cars pitting (whether they're allowed to pit or not, which ideally they should be).

[Gareth]

<p>

Whilst this is a good idea in theory, I think we must acknowledge that the current practice of using the safety car is also as a "show car", so most viewers and other stakeholders in the sport would be loath to have a system that spaces the cars out again after bunching them together in the first place.

For me, a simpler solution to a number of the current problems would be:

• Close the pit-lane during VSC/SC periods. Only cars with damage are allowed to pit (this could be judged by using the following criterion: would the car receive the black-and-orange flag from race control if the driver did not pit of his own accord?). This used to be the case, but was abandoned due to the possibility of cars running dry during such a situation, which is no longer an issue.
• Lapped cars either hold position or are dropped to the back of the queue in a SC situation. This avoids delays waiting for drivers to unlap themselves, and/or dangerous situations that could arise from them attempting to catch the queue having done so.

Closing the pitlane doesn’t remove randomness from SC periods. It just shifts the benefit, from those whose pit stop windows fall within an SC period to those that manage to pit just before an SC period.

[pdac]

Closing the pitlane doesn’t remove randomness from SC periods. It just shifts the benefit, from those whose pit stop windows fall within an SC period to those that manage to pit just before an SC period.

 

Yes, but it suspends racing, which is what the safety car is meant to be doing. There are only two ways to ensure that no one benefits - finish the race there and then or totally ignore the incident and just carry on racing (leaving the debris and any unfortunate drivers on the track). I'm sure no one would want either of these.

[ExFlagMan]

It's interesting how race fans can watch the same things happening and draw opposite conclusions.
 
The way I see it, accidents that result in carbon fibre shards being strewn across the track are almost the only ones left that require a SC (or the OP's proposed system), because of the need to bunch up the field to provide a period of safety for the track to be cleared and then swept. I hate the SC and would always try to avoid using it wherever possible. DWY or VSC is generally fine for any recovery from the run-off areas.

If the use of a DVSC style system for handling DWY via slow zones as discussed earlier was utilised (and worked as I envisaged it!), I would suggest the requirements for the 'Full Course Yellow' (FCY) situation, as currently handled by the VSC, should be significantly reduced. The VSC system was only introduced because drivers did not seem capable of dealing with yellow flags in a safe manner - the Kimi 'finger in the air and a slight lift' - not realling meeting most marshals definition of 'Slowing down and being prepared to stop' as defined in the rules.

If DVSC slow zones - with 'no gain/no pain' equalization of the gaps removing the incentive to cheat the rules - works, then the VSC becomes less necessary, and as an advantage allows the drivers to continue racing round the rest of the lap and eliminates the risk of tyre temperature related problems.
 

Incidents requiring the medical car should, in my view, normally be dealt with by a red flag, especially considering that the restart procedure after a SC takes very nearly as long as a restart after a red flag. It has never sat easily with me that people giving first aid to seriously injured people have to work in an environment where the SC train continues to come past them every few minutes. I remember, for example, the ambulance that took away the mortally wounded marshal from the scene of the Villeneuve/R Schumacher accident in Melbourne in 2001, having to let the SC train overtake it as it was on its way to the medical centre.

Do not think for red flag if medical car goes out is practical, given that if the driver hits a wall/another car and triggers the impact sensor, then the medical car is normallyb sent out to take them to the medical centre.

I would suggest that if the medical car is scrambled then a FCY is used until the driver is assessed and a decision can be made as to the required escalation level if necessary.

 

So on balance I like the OP's idea if it enables debris to be cleared safely from the track without using the SC. The main attraction, for me, is that it would enable the virtual elimination of SC periods. Ideally every incident should be coverable by DWY, VSC, slow zones (if F1 had them), or the red flag procedure where necessary.
 
I would like to understand better how the OP's system would cope with cars pitting (whether they're allowed to pit or not, which ideally they should be)

My intial suggestion is -

Local yellow/slow zone - Pit lane remains open as cars can continue racing round the rest of the circuit.

'Safety car' - pit lane exit closed as soon as system is invoke - though maybe any car already in the pit lane would be allowed to leave the pits but its 'restart gap' time would be calculated from the point it leaves the pit. If it does not make it to the exit line before the train comes round it rejoins the back of the train next time it comes round.

FCY - this one is a bit more tricky although hopefully, if a DVSC system reduces the no of FCY then this become less of a problem anyway.
My initial thought was pit lane closed, but on reflection I guess it could be open but with delta times being applied to the in and out sections, and a cars out sector delta being calculated to bring it out without impeding any car already circulating. eg if more than one car is circulating together they are delta'd to slot in behind the back of the group.