60 replies to this topic

[Lights]

Perez calls for review of Monaco chicane

https://www.motorspo...4398187/?nrt=54

Article summary: Perez feels the chicane run-off needs to be adjusted so cars that cut the corner have to slow down much more and navigate something like an alternative chicane before rejoining.

Background: Perez attempted to overtake Magnussen on lap 45 of this years Monaco GP. Magnussen got penalized and dropped 2 positions after the race, and got a penalty point on his license.

 

I don't actually want to discuss Perez's proposed review of the chicane, I want to the discuss the driving in it. For the record, I most definitely do not want to discuss Max vs Lewis, I don't think it fits in here.

Ok now we've got that covered: there's a nice history to this place we can start with. Let's start with... Perez!

 

2013, Perez vs Alonso

https://www.youtube...._ZYZIP6wRE&t=13

You can see Perez putting his car next to Alonso's braking into the chicane. He's not ahead at the apex.

 

But then this tends to happens in all of these moves here: the attacking car drifts wide and forces the defending car to avoid contact by leaving the track. Critically, there is a right-hander coming up for which IMO the defending driver (being on the inside for that corner) has the right for space on the inside of the corner. But this is never given to him by the attacking driver.

 

Perez comes on the radio: "Fernando cut the chicane, he's got to give me the position" 

Fernando later agreeing with him:

"I tend to agree with the decision because I cut a little bit the chicane"

But he also says:

"If I had not cut the chicane, I would not have been able to avoid colliding with Perez"

Alright, well so why do you agree with the decision then? Weird how that works, but well, whatever. Next!

 

2018, Verstappen vs Sainz

https://www.youtube....6Q9gN4RQ&t=145s

Verstappen attacking Sainz, Sainz is ahead at the apex, decides to live another lap. Note how Verstappen hardly makes the chicane himself.

 

Verstappen comes on the radio: "He cut the track!" 

The worst thing, a lap later Martin Brundle says: "In my view, Sainz will have to give that place". 

 

So already before this year, I felt like the consensus was a bit off. 

 

2019, Perez vs Magnussen

https://www.youtube....F--OQs0&t=2m50s

Same story, they are alongside but Perez is not ahead at the apex.

Perez comes on the radio: "I overtook him and he cut the chicane"   

 

How is this...

 

 

...overtaking him?

 

All you did was go so wide in the corner that Magnussen was forced to go off track when he realized that was the only way to keep all the bits on his car.

But you're not ahead, and you haven't overtaken him. See the line of the car ahead, that's the line you should've been on even if there wasn't a car besides you.

Even post-race, Perez says “I think he should have given me the position back”. Mate, what position? You never had it.

 

But Magnussen was penalized. Technically for not only missing the first, but also the second kerb. The steward report says:

 

"However, rather than re-joining the track as soon as possible, the driver of car 20 opened his steering and also missed the next apex creating a further shortcut allowing him to re-join the track ahead of car 20 rather than side by side, which would have been the case had he gone behind the raised kerb and re-joined as soon as possible, which there was room to do"

 

I disagree with this decision based on:

1. Perez never had the position
2. Magnussen merely took avoiding action
3. The stewards think Magnussen re-joining after the first raised kerb would've meant they would've been side by side, which I highly doubt, I think Kevin would've anyway ended up in front. Case of the stewards struggling to visualize an outcome.
4. The stewards apparently would've preferred to see Magnussen re-join the track side by side!  Hello? Rule 27.3 of the sporting regulations say "the driver may re‐join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so". I could easily understand Kevin thinking it wasn't safe to re-join after the first raised kerb. Had there been further contact there, the stewards would've happily penalized Kevin for re-joining the track unsafely.  

It's a yoke. Especially as he even got a penalty point on his license for it.

 

So what do the rules say on this?

Not sure if I could find all the rules concerning this, but from what I did find the applicable things are:

• "drivers may not deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason" - I'd say avoiding contact is a justifiable reason.
• "drivers may re-join the track only without gaining any lasting advantage" - The defending drivers in these cases didn't gain a lasting advantage as they were ahead the whole time.
• "drivers may re-join the track only when it is safe to do so" - Ironically, I feel like Magnussen got penalized for taking this rule into consideration.

So in that respect, why are these cases being handled so differently? Why is the consensus among stewards, pundits and drivers that these defenders have to give up their position here?

 

So how do you overtake in the Nouvelle chicane?

Nice that you ask, it's actually very simple. Apparently the consensus is that to overtake someone in the chicane you need to follow these 4 steps:

1. brake much later then them (which frankly is only possible because you're intending to push them off the track anyway)
2. get alongside, being slightly behind is fine
3. push them off the track
4. complain on the radio that the other driver cut the track (while acting like that had nothing to do with you coming in like a wrecking ball)
5. get classified ahead

This is all bogus. It's not how racing should be done.

 

Dessert

The most cunning quote from the original article of Perez vs Magnussen:

Perez: "In all fairness to the car ahead he gives space but then he has nowhere to go."

 

Yeah dummy, do you know why he has nowhere to go? Because after he's given you space at the apex, you don't give space back at the exit/apex of the next corner! 
Rant over.

Edited by Lights, 30 May 2019 - 09:15.

[Lights]

Marklar there's no way you could've read this in 2 minutes!

[PayasYouRace]

Just extend the wall round, something like this:

 

 

Provide a gap further up the road, controlled by a marshal, for cars that have had to take the escape road to rejoin before Tabac.

[baddog]

Drivers just need to take the inside line themselves when being pressured there., its slower but the guy on the outside is unable to do anything but cut the chicane if you play it right, and then he will be penalised if he takes the place.

 

If he is so much faster than you that he can go outside and make the corner stick then he deserved and earned the overtake anyway.

[Tsarwash]

Consistent stewarding, clearer rules are necessary. Some of those moves were just terrible racing etiquette, but somehow the attacking driver seems to think that they are in the right. The max one was particularly bad imo, as he came form far behind, forced his way to the inside, and then literally left Sainz with nowhere to go at all. 

The problem really is that Monaco is just too narrow to hold a decent race, the car behind really has almost no chance at all to get ahead anywhere on the circuit. 

[Tsarwash]

 

Just extend the wall round, something like this:

 

 

 

Provide a gap further up the road, controlled by a marshal, for cars that have had to take the escape road to rejoin before Tabac.

 

if that happened then all overtaking there would stop eventually. The only thing that any attacking car would ever have to do would to get vaguely alongside near the corner and the defender would automatically lose position. And then what would happen is that every defending driver would end up just taking the inside line, no matter how much slower it was, and thus a possible overtaking spot would be lost. 

[Tsarwash]

So they need to stop the divebombs which leave no room for the defender space on the track. If somebody gets roughly alongside, and leaves room for the defender, then the defender must stay on the circuit. I suggest that they move the first kerb up the road, by around a cars width. That wouldn't make the corner slower overall, would it ?

[Clatter]

Rather than talking about possible penalties why not look at the possiblities of making it a real overtaking point, without having to force someone of the road.

[ATM]

Why not just widen the chicane? Since there current cars are toooooo damm long, they just don’t fit side to side in an overtaking attempt. Put slightly higher kerbs on the outside (not too high, just a tad more, not to launch the car into barriers but enough to damage the underbody) and this should solve the issue.

[noikeee]

Why not just widen the chicane? Since there current cars are toooooo damm long, they just don’t fit side to side in an overtaking attempt. Put slightly higher kerbs on the outside (not too high, just a tad more, not to launch the car into barriers but enough to damage the underbody) and this should solve the issue.

a) widen into where, space is at a premium there

 

b) won't that make the chicane quicker and even less of a braking zone, less chances to overtake?

[jcbc3]

Get rid of the chicane and let the straight go down to Tabac? Might need some taller fencing, though.

[AndyPerry]

So they need to stop the divebombs which leave no room for the defender space on the track. If somebody gets roughly alongside, and leaves room for the defender, then the defender must stay on the circuit. I suggest that they move the first kerb up the road, by around a cars width. That wouldn't make the corner slower overall, would it ?

 

If they did that and not also lengthen the barrier on the left-hand side, the drivers wold just approach the corner faster with a different line (more to the middle of the track), which would eliminate any chance of overtaking, really. If they were to lengthen the left-hand barrier appropriately, we would be faced with the same situation as we have now, just a car width later.

Edited by AndyPerry, 30 May 2019 - 09:53.

[Ivanhoe]

Drivers just need to take the inside line themselves when being pressured there., its slower but the guy on the outside is unable to do anything but cut the chicane if you play it right, and then he will be penalised if he takes the place.

If he is so much faster than you that he can go outside and make the corner stick then he deserved and earned the overtake anyway.

That’s what Sainz did on Max in 2018, Max passed him on the outside, didn’t quite make the chicane, but got away with it.

Couldn’t find it on YouTube, but there’s a video with this article https://www.gpfans.c...door-bij-sainz/

Edited by Ivanhoe, 30 May 2019 - 09:55.

[pdac]

Just accept that there is no overtaking at Monaco.

[Tsarwash]

If they did that and not also lengthen the barrier on the left-hand side, the drivers wold just approach the corner faster with a different line (more to the middle of the track), which would eliminate any chance of overtaking, really. If they were to lengthen the left-hand barrier appropriately, we would be faced with the same situation as we have now, just a car width later.

You may be correct, but as it's a chicane, I don't think the overall speed through the corner would be any faster, but the approach might be. 

[Clatter]

Maybe the answer is to paint a line down the middle of the track and on the approach to the few overtaking points you have to decide which side of the line you want to be, and can't just sit in the middle.

[ANF]

Pérez had overtaken Magnussen at this point because he left him with three options:
1. Give up the position
2. Turn into the corner and hit Pérez
3. Open his steering and cut the chicane

Magnussen opened his steering and cut the chicane and he didn't give the position back. And 5 seconds is a yoke.

In other racing series, Magnussen would have been told to either give the position back now or serve a drive-through penalty. And he would have given the position back.

Edited by ANF, 30 May 2019 - 10:32.

[TheGoldenStoffel]

Something else, I think the entry speed into the chicane has become too high to really have a chance to out-brake the car in front. If they could somehow make the chicane go more to the left by extending in into the sea a bit more (Monaco is already doing quite a lot of land reclamation so that that extra few meters shouldn't be much of a problem) it makes the chicane a lot slower which should make the chance of successfully out-braking someone a tad easier.

[pdac]

Maybe the answer is to paint a line down the middle of the track and on the approach to the few overtaking points you have to decide which side of the line you want to be, and can't just sit in the middle.

 

Just too sensible. The first time a major name has their move disqualified because they were over the line, the fan base will be in uproar and all of those has-been drivers who are now pundits, commentators or simply press-friendly will moan about how there are too many regulations and they should just let the drivers sort it out.

[baddog]

That’s what Sainz did on Max in 2018, Max passed him on the outside, didn’t quite make the chicane, but got away with it.

Couldn’t find it on YouTube, but there’s a video with this article https://www.gpfans.c...door-bij-sainz/

 

A very good move too (and note how early he is alongside, not like his stab on Sunday), though being picky he didnt make the corner and different stewards different day could have been told to give it back, but it was very close and he genuinely tried to keep it in.

[pdac]

The easiest way to solve it is to have completely different cars for Monaco - much much shorter and completely different technical regs governing them. If teams cannot afford to make/buy a Monaco-only car, then they do not have to participate. If they want to just enter one car, they can. If they want to buy a chassis off of another team, they can.

[thegforcemaybewithyou]

Just get rid of the chicane and replace it with a simple white line across the track five meter before the current chicane begins. This line has a speed limit of 60km/h connected to it and a timing loop and high speed cameras will be placed there to police it. Similar to the pit exit in American oval racing, the first to cross the line is ahead, the second car has to slow down and drop behind.

[Clatter]

The easiest way to solve it is to have completely different cars for Monaco - much much shorter and completely different technical regs governing them. If teams cannot afford to make/buy a Monaco-only car, then they do not have to participate. If they want to just enter one car, they can. If they want to buy a chassis off of another team, they can.

Personally I'd make it a non-championship race. The track is simply unsuitable for F1 and has been for many years. Let them have their show race, but no points on offer.

[Clatter]

Just get rid of the chicane and replace it with a simple white line across the track five meter before the current chicane begins. This line has a speed limit of 60km/h connected to it and a timing loop and high speed cameras will be placed there to police it. Similar to the pit exit in American oval racing, the first to cross the line is ahead, the second car has to slow down and drop behind.

If there is no chicane why would they need to slow down there?

[thegforcemaybewithyou]

To "fake" an overtaking spot.

[Dutchrudder]

If they could change this part of the track only minimally it would help the circuit out no end.

[ar1]

It's a shame that the option that Joe Saward talks about in the second part of this article never happened as it would of created a two type circuit like Macau with the twisty bits and a fast bit

 

https://joesaward.wo...7/05/30/monaco/

Edited by ar1, 30 May 2019 - 11:43.

[maximilian]

If they were racing on proper tracks that actually allow passing, we wouldn't have this problem.

[statman]

has the Monaco track always been the same configuration? As in, the same 'streets' being used or has included some others of Monaco in the past?

 

I know this chicane used to be flat out 'straight' in the old days, wasn't really much of a chicane.

[ANF]

If there is no chicane why would they need to slow down there?

Without the chicane, cars would be approaching Tabac at 320 km/h.

[Lights]

Consistent stewarding, clearer rules are necessary. Some of those moves were just terrible racing etiquette, but somehow the attacking driver seems to think that they are in the right. The max one was particularly bad imo, as he came form far behind, forced his way to the inside, and then literally left Sainz with nowhere to go at all. 

The problem really is that Monaco is just too narrow to hold a decent race, the car behind really has almost no chance at all to get ahead anywhere on the circuit. 

 

True yet exactly because of that the feeling I get is that this creates two points of view:

• It's impossible to overtake
• Let's be more lenient if someone tries, because it's Monaco

I feel that the 2nd view is often the case among viewers and stewards here. The consensus with Verstappen's move on Hamilton was "Well had he to try" even though it was nowhere near working and a bit dangerous. With these 3 moves I highlighted in the OP the moves aren't completed yet but it seems like people think "He got so far, I guess that means he has the position" or something. Very odd.

[Lights]

Rather than talking about possible penalties why not look at the possiblities of making it a real overtaking point, without having to force someone of the road.

 

It wasn't my intention to talk about possible penalties, I was merely saying that it was wrong to penalize Magnussen. And thankfully there are some successful examples where forcing the defender of the road wasn't necessary, so in that sense it is a real overtaking point. The forcing someone of the road only happens in cases where an overtake isn't really possible, and the attacker driver sees forcing the defender off the road as an excuse to brake later and then complain on the radio.

[Jovanotti]

And 5 seconds is a yoke.

I read that in Alonso's voice.

Edited by Jovanotti, 30 May 2019 - 12:55.

[Clatter]

It wasn't my intention to talk about possible penalties, I was merely saying that it was wrong to penalize Magnussen. And thankfully there are some successful examples where forcing the defender of the road wasn't necessary, so in that sense it is a real overtaking point. The forcing someone of the road only happens in cases where an overtake isn't really possible, and the attacker driver sees forcing the defender off the road as an excuse to brake later and then complain on the radio.

It's almost the only place on the circuit where they can try something, so can't really blame them. It's the circuit that is the real issue.

[Eff1]

What I notice at this chicane, the defending driver releases the brakes a little if he sees someone take a dive down the inside. That way he makes it looks as if he is being forced off. Magnussen could have made that corner had he yielded and followed Perez through the chicane. But....why do that? You can take your chances cutting it and have an argument later to say “but I was still alongside/I was forced off”

[ANF]

What I notice at this chicane, the defending driver releases the brakes a little if he sees someone take a dive down the inside. That way he makes it looks as if he is being forced off. Magnussen could have made that corner had he yielded and followed Perez through the chicane. But....why do that? You can take your chances cutting it and have an argument later to say “but I was still alongside/I was forced off”

Exactly!

What F1 needs is a quick response from race control: Give back the position or you will get a drive-through penalty. Magnussen would have lost +15 seconds in the pit lane and 4 positions on the track with a drive-through, so he would have given back the position.

[SenorSjon]

There is no way 2 current longboat cars fit there. So it is always trouble. Only in the wet, overtaking is possible.

Edited by SenorSjon, 30 May 2019 - 15:20.

[Clatter]

Exactly!

What F1 needs is a quick response from race control: Give back the position or you will get a drive-through penalty. Magnussen would have lost +15 seconds in the pit lane and 4 positions on the track with a drive-through, so he would have given back the position.

It should not be race controls job to give the drivers instructions like that. Between the driver and the team they should be able to make that decision themselves, and if they want to take a chance its upto them.

[boomn]

has the Monaco track always been the same configuration? As in, the same 'streets' being used or has included some others of Monaco in the past?

 

I know this chicane used to be flat out 'straight' in the old days, wasn't really much of a chicane.

Yes, the bottom half of the circuit follows the same roads but it has changed a lot.  Like you said, the "Chicane du Port" was more of a kink.  And there was no swimming pool, so it was another straight after Tabac.  And instead of the La Rascasse and the tight Anthony Noghes, it was a single hairpin called Gazometre

 

It was before my time, but I have played it in sim racing games.  The nature of the original circuit feels very different.  That last half of the lap is really fast and open from Portier to the final hairpin.  A lot of that may be from a wider track due to less barriers also.

[MikeTekRacing]

I am not sure I agree with the opening post's point of view. What was Perez supposed to do? He got the car fully alongside and not a dive bomb, yet Magnussen just decided straight is better.

Oh, there is no space for 2 cars racing there? cool, if you're in front just defend the inside

[pdac]

I think the Monaco Grand Prix has been going for long enough that, if there were any possible changes that would make the racing better, they would have been implemented by now.

[Nonesuch]

Pérez had overtaken Magnussen at this point because he left him with three options:
1. Give up the position
2. Turn into the corner and hit Pérez
3. Open his steering and cut the chicane

 

Pérez isn't the one who decides that.

 

In a series with better driving conduct, Pérez and Magnussen can both enter the corner, and Magnussen will have the inside line on the second part of the chicane - and will likely keep the position.

 

By opening his line Pérez takes away that option and forces Magnussen to choose between leaving the track, or brake to avoid a crash. That's shitty driving, and liable to get one penalized - even under the half-baked F1 rules.

[DaddyCool]

There is no way 2 current longboat cars fit there. So it is always trouble. Only in the wet, overtaking is possible.

 

This. There's absolute no chance that 2 cars make the chicane alongside without crossing the track limits.

[MikeTekRacing]

Pérez isn't the one who decides that.

 

In a series with better driving conduct, Pérez and Magnussen can both enter the corner, and Magnussen will have the inside line on the second part of the chicane - and will likely keep the position.

 

By opening his line Pérez takes away that option and forces Magnussen to choose between leaving the track, or brake to avoid a crash. That's shitty driving, and liable to get one penalized - even under the half-baked F1 rules.

Perez didn't design the track's width. If you're on the outside and you don't fit there -tough luck. Maybe you should consider this before picking your line for the chicane?

you make it sound as if he just went wider on purpose to squeeze Magnussen out (Rosberg vs Max in Germany...). Perez took a normal inside line

Edited by MikeTekRacing, 30 May 2019 - 18:14.

[ANF]

Pérez isn't the one who decides that.
 
In a series with better driving conduct, Pérez and Magnussen can both enter the corner, and Magnussen will have the inside line on the second part of the chicane - and will likely keep the position.
 
By opening his line Pérez takes away that option and forces Magnussen to choose between leaving the track, or brake to avoid a crash. That's shitty driving, and liable to get one penalized - even under the half-baked F1 rules.

"Shitty driving" is a bit harsh on him, don't you think? After all, he managed to get alongside Magnussen, get the car slowed down from 300 to 70 on that bumpy downhill part of the circuit and thread the car into that silly little chicane with all four wheels within the track limits! It wasn't the cleanest of overtaking moves, but he made the corner.

[Clatter]

I think the Monaco Grand Prix has been going for long enough that, if there were any possible changes that would make the racing better, they would have been implemented by now.

They moved the wall at the chicane a few years back now, but they never changed the layout of that section. As they have created a bit more space there, is there not the opportunity to remodel the chicane? Has that ever been investigated?

[RacingGreen]

Without the chicane, cars would be approaching Tabac at 320 km/h.
 

 

That's why the cars have a brake pedal. 

[Tsarwash]

They moved the wall at the chicane a few years back now, but they never changed the layout of that section. As they have created a bit more space there, is there not the opportunity to remodel the chicane? Has that ever been investigated?

They had to take a tree out in order to do so, which I think was quite controversial in the Principality at the time. 

[Risil]

Without the chicane, cars would be approaching Tabac at 320 km/h.

 

Without the chicane wouldn't they end up back at Ste Devote, like in the Formula E course?

[MikeV1987]

Good job on the op.


I say get rid of it or just stop going to that track.