43 replies to this topic

[Vielleicht]

This happened today
https://e-racing365....-ev-lap-record/
 

6:05.336

 

[Silberpfeil]

Well, they did need some good PR. The average speed of 206.96 kph is impressive, but the huge gap to the all-time record also shows what an incredible machine the 919 Evo was.

I wonder whether we’ll be getting an onboard anytime soon, I’d really like to know where the car maxed out ‘round Tiergarten, and whether they went for acceleration over top speed.

[Ben1445]

Bellof's legendary lap that the 919 Evo was sent out to beat was 6:11.13 

 

The I.D. R has done it in 6:05.336. 

 

This car is an EV. 

[Kalmake]

Chassis shouldn't be worse than 919 Evo, which was still compromised by regulations.

[Vielleicht]

Well, they did need some good PR. The average speed of 206.96 kph is impressive, but the huge gap to the all-time record also shows what an incredible machine the 919 Evo was.

 

Chassis shouldn't be worse than 919 Evo, which was still compromised by regulations.

I think some persepctive over what this car is may help.

 

The 919 Evo was a mad version of the Le Mans Hybrid prototype developed for over 5 years by a large team of engineers. It was designed from the ground up for the chassis, engine, and hybrid systems to work well as one entity. That base is a three time Le Mans Winner. Once it had finished it's 4 year racing program it was sent to go out for some all time lap records. The regulations went out the window for those runs and modifications were made, within reason, to refelct that. It was a honed racing machine with strong racing pedigree compeltely unleashed.

 

The team that put the I.D. R together for Pikes Peak was made of just 30 people and were given only 250 days to do it in. It's an off-the-shelf Norma hillclimb chassis. To that chassis, designed for an ICE, they crammed in a couple of batteries. That in itself was a large compromise made to save time. They took it to Pikes Peak and took the overall record in the first attempt of what was meant ot be a two phase program (original plan was EV record at the 2018 PPIHC then all-time record this year). Then they were tasked with a similar time frame to get the thing around the Nordschleife as fast as they could. They have done that 40 seconds quicker than the next best EV and placed the car second on the all-time list.

 

In so many ways, the two machines are completely incomparable in my opinion. Both impressive for very different reasons.

Edited by Vielleicht, 03 June 2019 - 16:24.

[ArrowsLivery]

Bellof's legendary lap that the 919 Evo was sent out to beat was 6:11.13

The I.D. R has done it in 6:05.336.

This car is an EV.

Bellof did it with a car developed in the very early 80s, with the very first generation of ground effects in sportscars, and an ICE developed in the 70s. That Porsche would still probably lap the Nordschliefe a minute faster than what it did then, if it had modern tires.

[Nonesuch]

Not bad, will they be competing in the N24 as well? That race has a gazillion classes anyway, should be fun!

[Ben1445]

Bellof did it with a car developed in the very early 80s, with the very first generation of ground effects in sportscars, and an ICE developed in the 70s. That Porsche would still probably lap the Nordschliefe a minute faster than what it did then, if it had modern tires.

A minute faster? A 5:11.13... faster than the 919 Evo?

Well I thought I’d heard it all!

I think the Bellof benchmark is an important one because it really wasn’t all that long ago that the perception of EVs was that one would never even get close to even that long standing, decades old record. Of course modern racers can blitz that lap as the 919 Evo proved, but that’s besides the point.

Edited by Ben1445, 03 June 2019 - 17:43.

[NotAPineapple]

Bellof did it with a car developed in the very early 80s, with the very first generation of ground effects in sportscars, and an ICE developed in the 70s. That Porsche would still probably lap the Nordschliefe a minute faster than what it did then, if it had modern tires.

 

 No way in hell. The laptime senstivity to grip around the Nurburgring is high, but not that high. Max 30sec difference due to the tires I'd say.

[Vielleicht]

Here's the full lap

 

[JeePee]

Crazy to think they drove this lap time with a car that's not even able to go faster than my personal car... 248 tops on Döttinger Höhe

[PayasYouRace]

I wonder if it was actually running out of power by the end. It was getting above 270 at earlier points of the lap. Or maybe a strong headwind on that straight?

[JRodrigues]

Bellof did it with a car developed in the very early 80s, with the very first generation of ground effects in sportscars, and an ICE developed in the 70s. That Porsche would still probably lap the Nordschliefe a minute faster than what it did then, if it had modern tires.

 

The chassis (probably) couldn't handle the grip of modern tires.

[Vielleicht]

I wonder if it was actually running out of power by the end. It was getting above 270 at earlier points of the lap. Or maybe a strong headwind on that straight?

I was wondeirng if battery temperature had anything to do with it. Cooling is a bit of a challenge for a regular Norma chassis with two batteries squeezed in and I'm sure they would have been trying to find the right compromise between cooling and outright pace, just like any racecar.  Perhaps wasn't an issue earlier in the run

Edited by Vielleicht, 04 June 2019 - 08:25.

[Ben1445]

I wonder how fast they could get one to go that was built entirely clean sheet with a bespoke chassis. Surely they could get a much better weight balance, aero and cooling than this car has (which is very impressive in it's own right I might add). 

[7MGTEsup]

I was wondeirng if battery temperature had anything to do with it. Cooling is a bit of a challenge for a regular Norma chassis with two batteries squeezed in and I'm sure they would have been trying to find the right compromise between cooling and outright pace, just like any racecar.  Perhaps wasn't an issue earlier in the run

 

Getting power out of a battery quickly does seem to be a problem without generating a lot of heat, it would appear to be the biggest hurdle next to battery life and recharge. 

[Vielleicht]

Getting power out of a battery quickly does seem to be a problem without generating a lot of heat, it would appear to be the biggest hurdle next to battery life and recharge.

All the more reason to race them

[Ben1445]

I think it’s quite fantastic that the two fastest cars ever to lap the Nordschleife are now an LMP1-H (with extra H) and a pure battery EV.

[7MGTEsup]

All the more reason to race them

 

Indeed, but if they want to make fast progress they should open up the rules to allow innovation in Formula E and any other series running pure EV. 

[7MGTEsup]

I think it’s quite fantastic that the two fastest cars ever to lap the Nordschleife are now an LMP1-H (with extra H) and a pure battery EV.

 

Has anyone else attempted to set a record in anything approaching a top flight racing car though?

[Kalmake]

Has anyone else attempted to set a record in anything approaching a top flight racing car though?

919 Evo was F1 level as shown by their Spa time.

 

I wish Toyota would have a go with their soon-useless LMP1 car.

[Silberpfeil]

Here‘s the ”proper“ onboard, btw. I get the impression that there was a lot more to gain in the first part of the lap, but maybe that was due to tyre and/or energy conservation.

https://www.facebook...171&v=e&sfns=mo

[proviz]

Bellof's legendary lap that the 919 Evo was sent out to beat was 6:11.13 

 

The I.D. R has done it in 6:05.336. 

 

This car is an EV. 

 

We should be wary about glorifying that Belief lap, as comparisons with earlier records are difficult, because the whole "stadium section" was cut off. Yes, five seconds faster than second qualifier, but that was not at all exceptional in sportscar races of the time.

Edited by proviz, 08 June 2019 - 12:53.

[Ben1445]

We should be wary about glorifying that Belief lap, as comparisons with earlier records are difficult, because the whole "stadium section" was cut off. Yes, five seconds faster than second qualifier, but that was not at all exceptional in sportscar races of the time as the start 

Bellof's lap was on the same 'short' Nordschleife course as these laps are set today because they were building the current Grand Prix layout at the time. 

[Kalmake]

We should be wary about glorifying that Belief lap, as comparisons with earlier records are difficult, because the whole "stadium section" was cut off. Yes, five seconds faster than second qualifier, but that was not at all exceptional in sportscar races of the time.

[Ben1445]

Who on earth is comparing Bellof's lap with earlier records? Here or anywhere? 

[proviz]

Who on earth is comparing Bellof's lap with earlier records? Here or anywhere? 

 

So why would it be legendary? For three decades nobody in comparable cars even tried to go faster.

[Ben1445]

So why would it be legendary? For three decades nobody in comparable cars even tried to go faster.

 

Dunno man, it's just always been seen as the benchmark to compare to. So I guess because of it's longevity. Because until a couple of years ago it was the fastest Nordschleife lap. 

[proviz]

Dunno man, it's just always been seen as the benchmark to compare to. So I guess because of it's longevity. Because until a couple of years ago it was the fastest Nordschleife lap. 

 

Only because no-one had seriously tried to do any better!

[proviz]

So it's not "classic" or "legendary" Well, maybe classic, but definitely note legendary, because the year after someone would have gone even faster.

[Vielleicht]

I think it's famous enogh a lap to be described as "legendary"

 

The creation of modern myths do not always follow logic.

[Silberpfeil]

I would’ve loved for Heidfeld to have a proper go back when he did the demo laps in the BMW Sauber a decade or so ago.

Edit: And part of the mystique of Bellof’s lap is that he died two years later. It’s his most well-known legacy.

Edited by Silberpfeil, 08 June 2019 - 20:10.

[Vielleicht]

Well it seems we are getting an ID.R Evo

 

https://www.autocar....-record-breaker

 

 

Volkswagen Motorsport has confirmed it is developing a second generation of the machine, which will be badged ID R Evo.

 

Sven Smeets, VW's motorsport boss, said the project would draw on the rapid advances in EV technology. "In the past eight months, e-mobility has made such a leap that we can do with an electric competition car that is bigger and better," he said.

 

Volkswagen would not confirm what specific challenges the ID R Evo was being developed for, but Autocar understands that a return to the Nürburgring is being strongly considered.

[Vielleicht]

Whilst on the subject of the ID.R though, here's a full onbaord from the current model's run up the Tianmen Shan Big Gate Road. Quite incredible.

 

[Atreiu]

What a lap. These Nurburgring time trials are always fun to watch.

[Ben1445]

Great news, can’t wait to see this project continue and evolve.

[ElectricBoogie]

He was quoted or translated "competition car"...

Imagine a field of 24 of these cars going at it. Maybe slightly narrower.

Would be interesting to see a Formula E car (even a sim) go up that Tianmen Shan Big Gate Road. It's definitely not about top speed. All about dealing with slow corners and bumps, and of course getting to the next corner quickly. Being so slow, braking seemed a big factor traction wise.

The original ID.R was concocted really short notice. A hasted PR campaign that worked out really well. They saw a gap and sent it.
With VW's growing experience, especially via Porsche sitting in Rimac's kitchen (I believe Rimac threw some parts together for ID.R) there of course is room for improvement.
Peak power was not really high, total mass perhaps a bit too much. 
I bet the battery could be both lighter and more powerful. Its challenges don't take a huge amount of energy, these 6-7 minute outings.
For regen and early acceleration, I'd love to see a dedicated pack similar to used in F1 and LMP1. Ability to take very high input. Full motor power, effectively. If the motors can deliver 500 kW, then regen at 500 kW unless wheel traction falls below that. This makes the car great at efficiency, utilising as much regen as possible.
Braking from 200 to 80 for instance, the power pack would get itself back up to say 160 before the range pack is needed to kick in again.Most of us will have noticed how quickly an LMP1-H, such that the Toyota, can go from 120 to 280 kph. Part is on the ICE here substituted by the (similarly powerful) ID.3 battery, but especially the early stage will be deploying energy from the hybrid (power) battery. 
True power cells tend to have lower internal resistance, barely get to suffer from overheating compared to range cells designed to pack as much energy (not power) per kg.

[BuddyHolly]

Congrats to them, but I hope that's an unofficial record.

[Vielleicht]

He was quoted or translated "competition car"...

Imagine a field of 24 of these cars going at it. Maybe slightly narrower.

That would be....quite a sight.

[Ben1445]

They took the ID.R to Bilster Berg because why not 

 

 

All in preparation for Goodwood Speedweek apparently - will it do a lap of the Goodwood Motor Racing Circuit? 

[PayasYouRace]

Just realised I've been reading that as Blister Berg for ages.

[Ben1445]

I'm glad it's not just been me! 

[AlexPrime]

How was Beloff faster than the Grand Prix cars? Always felt puzzled about it.

[Ben1445]

How was Beloff faster than the Grand Prix cars? Always felt puzzled about it.

Ultimately he wasn't. There were no Grand Prix cars attempting the Nordschleife after 1976 and aero/engineering gains by the time Bellof did has famous lap in 1983 certainly weren't insignificant. But even more consequential was that he did his lap on the shortened Nordschleife loop without the old 'stadium section' which older lap times used because it was, at the time, being rebuilt to the GP circuit configuration we know today.

 

Basically, because he set that lap time on the very same layout that track day tourists and production lap record chasing manufacturers drive, it became infamous as the 'fastest time to beat' benchmark... until 2018 when Porsche decided it was time to blow it out of the water with the 919 Evo. 

Edited by Ben1445, 26 September 2020 - 11:55.