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Racing Pride - LGBTQ+ motorsport movement [merged thread]


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#1 alframsey

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 13:27

I think this is a great move and glad to see it is backed by Autosport and Sky. As a gay man it is frustrating that there is such a lack of representation from the LGBTQ+ community in sport in general so I am glad to see motorsport taking the lead. I'm completely unaware of any people from the community who currently race beyond the two mentioned in the article, lets hope that changes.

 

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#2 Jovanotti

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 13:33

Does lack of representation mean a lack of accessibility for those groups though?

#3 alframsey

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 13:46

Does lack of representation mean a lack of accessibility for those groups though?

I don't think so tbf. I'm not aware of motosport having and inherent anti LGBTQ+ feelings, I've only ever been a spectator and not been involved in trying to get into the world of motorsports so unaware of whether being 'out' and trying to access the sport a person might face discrimination or not. Maybe someone more involved in the sport could comment on that.



#4 PayasYouRace

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 13:50

LGBTQ+ Series is a bit more of a mouthful.

 

I joke. I'd not want to see anyone excluded from sport because of their sexual preferences, but I'd say it's more important for sport to be as blind as possible to it. I can only assume that the sport currently isn't as blind as it should be for this movement to exist, which isn't a good thing.

 

I also hope I look as good as Charlie Martin when I'm 37.



#5 Muppetmad

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 13:51

I'm glad to see this. Whether we realise it or not, motorsport is often tied up in very "traditional" notions of masculinity which can make people (be they drivers, team members, fans etc.) feel unable to connect entirely with the community or culture of the sport.

 

Thankfully, I don't think this needs a massive cultural shift, nor does there need to be a big song and dance made about it. This movement strikes the right tone, I think, and should be applauded. It's about making clear that everyone is welcome in motorsport.



#6 alframsey

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 13:54

I tend to agree that sports should be as blind to race, sexuality, religion etc as possible but I don't think that should mean not addressing an issue around visibility or accessibility if there is one. Like I say I've never heard of anyone speaking about anti LGBTQ+ sentiment in the world of motorsport as people do with football. It can only be positive though, I just hope it is more than a gesture.



#7 Lights

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 13:56

LGBTQ+ Series is a bit more of a mouthful.

 

That was also my first thought. The W Series clearly isn't groundbreaking and inclusive enough.

 

Obligatory post-joke statement that I'm totally for inclusion of everyone regardless of their gender, sexual preference, favorite color, or preferred type of breakfast.



#8 Anja

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 14:20

I don't think it's as much about possible discrimination as it is about visibility and sending a message to LGBTQ+ people that might be interested in pursuing a career in motorsport. Showing that yes, you can become involved in racing while being a member of this community and without having to hide it. It might seem like that's obvious and this assurance is not necessary or important but believe me, it is. Most people aren't brave enough to "break new grounds" without having any examples to follow. Making those examples visible and open, saying "yes, you're welcome here" might make an actual difference for some people.



#9 Myrvold

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 14:51

Does lack of representation mean a lack of accessibility for those groups though?

No, but yes, and possibly.

 

Not experienced anything negative of bad myself, but I do have friends who race, on all levels. From entry-level local motorsports, where the general attitude towards gay people (mainly, as, well, we know for many the problem can be gay man, not lesbian women) are dictated by the attitude in the area. But also up to WEC, and the idea is, that the more professional your series is, the more important it is to act straight. The fear of losing a drive due to the sexuality, or, maybe more important, be less attractive on the sponsor market, makes people decide to "be straight". As a very good friend of me told me; "Really, I don't care if the person is guy or girl. It's the person I like. But, for the image and sponsors. It's important that I get a girlfriend, or at least are seen with ladies that way, and never with a man".

It's all personal experiences, and not a proper survey of any kind - but that's my experience with it.



#10 FLB

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 14:55

No, but yes, and possibly.

 

Not experienced anything negative of bad myself, but I do have friends who race, on all levels. From entry-level local motorsports, where the general attitude towards gay people (mainly, as, well, we know for many the problem can be gay man, not lesbian women) are dictated by the attitude in the area. But also up to WEC, and the idea is, that the more professional your series is, the more important it is to act straight. The fear of losing a drive due to the sexuality, or, maybe more important, be less attractive on the sponsor market, makes people decide to "be straight". As a very good friend of me told me; "Really, I don't care if the person is guy or girl. It's the person I like. But, for the image and sponsors. It's important that I get a girlfriend, or at least are seen with ladies that way, and never with a man".

It's all personal experiences, and not a proper survey of any kind - but that's my experience with it.

Danny Watts would corroborate:

 

http://www.dailyspor...ame-person.html



#11 CountDooku

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 15:20

I don’t know why someone’s sexuality is important to their ability to race? Or why it’s important for the viewers to be aware of?

Who people sleep with is their private business and should be incidental to their career, whether it’s in racing or anything else frankly. In fact I’d guess that there were lots of gay drivers out there who don’t talk about it because it’s not our business. Just as in Hollywood.

Edited by CountDooku, 06 June 2019 - 15:21.


#12 alframsey

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 15:26

I don’t know why someone’s sexuality is important to their ability to race? Or why it’s important for the viewers to be aware of?

Who people sleep with is their private business and should be incidental to their career, whether it’s in racing or anything else frankly. In fact I’d guess that there were lots of gay drivers out there who don’t talk about it because it’s not our business. Just as in Hollywood.

I completely agree regarding it should have a bearing a persons career but the are still people who will discriminate based on sexuality, it isn't just a fact of not speaking about it either. What if said person has a partner of the same sex who they want to bring to the race? Not speaking about their sexuality doesn't cut it as they have their partner there, and people will possibly discriminate based on that. It is also about LGBTQ+ kids having relateable role models, while it may not matter what sexuality someone is to one viewer another it might be hugely significant on a personal level. Seeing somebody 'like them' competing in the sport they are a fan of.



#13 AustinF1

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 15:31

There are plenty of LGBTQ+ people in sport. Most of them just don't feel the need to advertise their private lives to the world.


Edited by AustinF1, 17 June 2019 - 12:08.


#14 MonkeySpin

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 15:37

A quick question... why do you feel the need to point out you are gay?  Do you want special treatment or something? I don't get it.

 

And being LGBTQ (how many more characters is this going to get) stops nothing. In the same way being a woman stops nothing.

 

If your good, your good. If Hamilton was gay would Mercedes suddenly drop him? Would other teams not want him? No.... it would change nothing and they would not care if he was gay as he is the best.

 

Using race, sex, being gay etc as an excuse for being held back is simply that... a convenient excuse to somebody's own limitations.

 

IMO.

 

 

 



#15 CountDooku

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 15:37

I completely agree regarding it should have a bearing a persons career but the are still people who will discriminate based on sexuality, it isn't just a fact of not speaking about it either. What if said person has a partner of the same sex who they want to bring to the race? Not speaking about their sexuality doesn't cut it as they have their partner there, and people will possibly discriminate based on that. It is also about LGBTQ+ kids having relateable role models, while it may not matter what sexuality someone is to one viewer another it might be hugely significant on a personal level. Seeing somebody 'like them' competing in the sport they are a fan of.


Is there really discrimination against gay people in motorsports in the UK? If the person wants to bring a partner to an event what’s stopping them from doing so?

I’m not sure why people look to racing for role models on sexuality?

#16 Nathan

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 15:40

The fear of losing a drive due to the sexuality, or, maybe more important, be less attractive on the sponsor market, makes people decide to "be straight". 

 

 

Is this still the case in 2019?  I ask because, at least here in Canada, the majority of new major brand TV commercials feature a gay couple.  It's become fashionable.  The progressive media would roast any major corporation that has a scent of being anti gay.  



#17 Muppetmad

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 15:49

When straight male drivers bring their wives/girlfriends to races, nobody has ever said that they shouldn't "feel the need to advertise their private lives to the world". Why is this? Because, despite what the name suggests, sexuality is not simply about sex. It's about family life, which is inherently public.

 

Should LGBT+ drivers feel able to bring same-sex partners to races? Yes. Do they feel able to do so? The absence of any major examples of drivers who have done so suggest not. Why is this? There are perhaps lots of reasons; Myrvold has outlined some of them. Perhaps it's simply that some drivers are afraid to be the first to take the step. If that's the case, then isn't this movement exactly the right step?

 

For F1 alone, we should also be mindful that the races in Bahrain, Russia and UAE - where LGBT+ rights are especially poor - could make drivers reluctant to bring same-sex partners for risk of endangering themselves or their partners.


Edited by Muppetmad, 06 June 2019 - 15:53.


#18 alframsey

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 15:53

To address a few points made. I don't think it is about people using being LGBTQ+ as an excuse for not getting into motorsport, it is about raising visibility so the sport more closely reflects society at large. There is a need to 'highlight' competitors from this community because it isn't something immediately noticeable, being straight is because it is simply assumed a person is unless otherwise stated. I cannot speak for others but on a personal level I'd have found it helpful as a kid to have seen more gay competitors in a variety of sports, knowing there are others 'like you' competing does help as a child growing up as part of this community.

 

I don't think it is at all about saying 'look, this person isn't in motorsport because they are gay and being discriminated against' I feel it is more about highlighting that there are successful competitors from the LGBTQ+ community, the same way we celebrate successful people from all walks of life. People speak about race and the impact Lewis has had on getting BAME people involved in the sport, and how Billy Monger is an inspiration, etc so why not the same from these people?



#19 Jovanotti

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 15:58

A quick question... why do you feel the need to point out you are gay?  Do you want special treatment or something? I don't get it.

 

And being LGBTQ (how many more characters is this going to get) stops nothing. In the same way being a woman stops nothing.

 

If your good, your good. If Hamilton was gay would Mercedes suddenly drop him? Would other teams not want him? No.... it would change nothing and they would not care if he was gay as he is the best.

 

Using race, sex, being gay etc as an excuse for being held back is simply that... a convenient excuse to somebody's own limitations.

 

IMO.

My first thought when this thread popped up was indeed "Is this really necessary?", as imo your sexual orientation is something private and I don't want to have it shoved down my throat from anyone.

 

That said, if driver's (as Danny Watts in the link posted above) still feel uncomfortable or even afraid to talk about it, there's clearly work to be done. Everyone really should be comfortable enough to not continuously having to assert themselves and thinking about how it will affect them. In an ideal world, it wouldn't matter and it could indeed remain a private affair.



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#20 pitlanepalpatine

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 15:59

A quick question... why do you feel the need to point out you are gay?  Do you want special treatment or something? I don't get it.

 

And being LGBTQ (how many more characters is this going to get) stops nothing. In the same way being a woman stops nothing.

 

If your good, your good. If Hamilton was gay would Mercedes suddenly drop him? Would other teams not want him? No.... it would change nothing and they would not care if he was gay as he is the best.

 

Using race, sex, being gay etc as an excuse for being held back is simply that... a convenient excuse to somebody's own limitations.

 

IMO.

 

Actually, if he got back with Nicole they might :p

 

When straight male drivers bring their wives/girlfriends to races, nobody has ever said that they shouldn't "feel the need to advertise their private lives to the world". Why is this? Because, despite what the name suggests, sexuality is not simply about sex. It's about family life, which is inherently public.

 

Should LGBT+ drivers feel able to bring same-sex partners to races? Yes. Do they feel able to do so? The absence of any major examples of drivers who have done so suggest not. Why is this? There are perhaps lots of reasons; Myrvold has outlined some of them. Perhaps it's simply that some drivers are afraid to be the first to take the step. If that's the case, then isn't this movement exactly the right step?

 

For F1 alone, we should also be mindful that the races in Bahrain, Russia and UAE - where LGBT+ rights are especially poor - could make drivers reluctant to bring same-sex partners for risk of endangering themselves or their partners.

 

Honestly. if we could cut down on the family pictures in the pits overall I would really appreciate it >.< It's the great thing about Sutil being gone that we don't get shots of Jenny Becks when there's racing going on...I mean look at this nonsense https://www.motorspo...sutil/42521439/. You've got a former F1 driver with his girlfriend and the title headlines the girlfriend...it's worse than Lewis and Nicole.



#21 TheFish

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 16:00

 

For F1 alone, we should also be mindful that the races in Bahrain, Russia and UAE - where LGBT+ rights are especially poor - could make drivers reluctant to bring same-sex partners for risk of endangering themselves or their partners.

 

Agreed, but it's not just LGBTQ+ people that feel that way in some of these countries, they have a lot of work to do in other ways too.

 

Mkhitaryan couldn't play in a European final in Baku because he's Armenian. If you have an Israeli stamp on your passport you're not allowed into certain Middle Eastern countries etc.



#22 CountDooku

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 16:13

When straight male drivers bring their wives/girlfriends to races, nobody has ever said that they shouldn't "feel the need to advertise their private lives to the world". Why is this? Because, despite what the name suggests, sexuality is not simply about sex. It's about family life, which is inherently public.

 

Should LGBT+ drivers feel able to bring same-sex partners to races? Yes. Do they feel able to do so? The absence of any major examples of drivers who have done so suggest not. Why is this? There are perhaps lots of reasons; Myrvold has outlined some of them. Perhaps it's simply that some drivers are afraid to be the first to take the step. If that's the case, then isn't this movement exactly the right step?

 

For F1 alone, we should also be mindful that the races in Bahrain, Russia and UAE - where LGBT+ rights are especially poor - could make drivers reluctant to bring same-sex partners for risk of endangering themselves or their partners.

 

Firstly we don't know for a fact that gay drivers haven't brought and don't want to bring their partners to races. And if they feel they can't does that say more about the gay driver or of spectators or motorsports in general? 

 

In the UK (which is what the initiative is about) I am fairly certain no one would bat an eyelid, so this seems to me to be more about right-on signalling. I would back this initiative 100% if it was in the UAE or Russia however, where there is a massive problem



#23 doc83

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 16:21

This is so absurd I'm stunned! So what's next? Some will use their sexuality as a weapon and harassment methods to get a drive?

#24 ANF

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 16:21

I don’t know why someone’s sexuality is important to their ability to race? Or why it’s important for the viewers to be aware of?

Who people sleep with is their private business and should be incidental to their career, whether it’s in racing or anything else frankly. In fact I’d guess that there were lots of gay drivers out there who don’t talk about it because it’s not our business. Just as in Hollywood.



#25 CountDooku

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 16:22

To address a few points made. I don't think it is about people using being LGBTQ+ as an excuse for not getting into motorsport, it is about raising visibility so the sport more closely reflects society at large. There is a need to 'highlight' competitors from this community because it isn't something immediately noticeable, being straight is because it is simply assumed a person is unless otherwise stated. I cannot speak for others but on a personal level I'd have found it helpful as a kid to have seen more gay competitors in a variety of sports, knowing there are others 'like you' competing does help as a child growing up as part of this community.

 

I don't think it is at all about saying 'look, this person isn't in motorsport because they are gay and being discriminated against' I feel it is more about highlighting that there are successful competitors from the LGBTQ+ community, the same way we celebrate successful people from all walks of life. People speak about race and the impact Lewis has had on getting BAME people involved in the sport, and how Billy Monger is an inspiration, etc so why not the same from these people?

 

Apologies for making assumptions about your age but if you are late 20s or older the society you grew up in is markedly different to the one we find ourselves in. LGBT people are all over the media and I doubt any kid growing up today would struggle to find people to identify with.

 

I guess everyone's different  but I frankly feel that we shouldn't encourage kids to identify more with people just because they are the same gender, race, sexuality or whatever. We should be promoting the ability to identify with people who you have differences. Why shouldn't a young white boy identify with Serena Williams? Or a yound black qirl with Tom Daley? IMO we are at risk of building up divisions rather than tearing down walls between groups.



#26 alframsey

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 16:22

Firstly we don't know for a fact that gay drivers haven't brought and don't want to bring their partners to races. And if they feel they can't does that say more about the gay driver or of spectators or motorsports in general? 

 

In the UK (which is what the initiative is about) I am fairly certain no one would bat an eyelid, so this seems to me to be more about right-on signalling. I would back this initiative 100% if it was in the UAE or Russia however, where there is a massive problem

Well then I am fairly certain you've never experienced homophobia because to say, 'it is the UK this doesn't happen' etc simply in't true. It does happen and probably in every area of life, just not a prolifically as it does in other countries.



#27 Tsarwash

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 16:23

 

In the UK (which is what the initiative is about) I am fairly certain no one would bat an eyelid, so this seems to me to be more about right-on signalling. I would back this initiative 100% if it was in the UAE or Russia however, where there is a massive problem

There are definitely still going to be problems in this country. They are not likely to be as widespread or as severe as in many other places, but I'm sure that they still exist. 



#28 Tsarwash

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 16:25

This is so absurd I'm stunned! So what's next? Some will use their sexuality as a weapon and harassment methods to get a drive?

What's it like to live on your planet ? 



#29 CountDooku

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 16:28

Well then I am fairly certain you've never experienced homophobia because to say, 'it is the UK this doesn't happen' etc simply in't true. It does happen and probably in every area of life, just not a prolifically as it does in other countries.

 

 

There are definitely still going to be problems in this country. They are not likely to be as widespread or as severe as in many other places, but I'm sure that they still exist. 

 

I'm not saying there is no homophobia in the UK at large. I'm talking about motorsport events.

 

Do you genuinely believe there would be an issue with a gay F1 driver bringing their partner to a race?  :confused:



#30 alframsey

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 16:29

Apologies for making assumptions about your age but if you are late 20s or older the society you grew up in is markedly different to the one we find ourselves in. LGBT people are all over the media and I doubt any kid growing up today would struggle to find people to identify with.

 

I guess everyone's different  but I frankly feel that we shouldn't encourage kids to identify more with people just because they are the same gender, race, sexuality or whatever. We should be promoting the ability to identify with people who you have differences. Why shouldn't a young white boy identify with Serena Williams? Or a yound black qirl with Tom Daley? IMO we are at risk of building up divisions rather than tearing down walls between groups.

That is true, I am 29 and there are many more people who I could look to than previous generations however these people were not found in the things I identified with or followed most closely - football, motorsport and boxing. I agree I could identify with others, and I did, but I was also acutely aware when I was in my early to mid teens that there was an absence of gay men in the sports I loved and still love. Growing as a gay man and experiencing homophobia simply for being out, it would have been a great help to have seen gay people being open and accepted in the sporting world rather than being told I shouldn't have been involved in certain sports simply because I am queer. Admittedly this is get away from purely motorsport now but I can't help but believe homphobia would have been present in the world of motorsport, there are enough anecdotes about racism and sexism so I'd expect there to be homophobia too simply as it would be strange for there not to be given the attitude of wider society. Be that a minority.



#31 alframsey

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 16:31

I'm not saying there is no homophobia in the UK at large. I'm talking about motorsport events.

 

Do you genuinely believe there would be an issue with a gay F1 driver bringing their partner to a race?  :confused:

I honestly don't know. I also don't know whether same sex parents would be welcome at events with their kids trying to get into carting, or trans partners being welcome at track day events in the lower series. Genuinely I do not know, would there be? There are more than enough examples of it being the case in other areas of life that these people might feel unwelcome so why would motosport be any different?



#32 jonpollak

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 16:36

Yeah that’s what racing needs... more niché divisions.
NOT.
Jp

#33 Nathan

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 16:41

People speak about race and the impact Lewis has had on getting BAME people involved in the sport, and how Billy Monger is an inspiration, etc so why not the same from these people?

 

All you need is a gay race car driver to say "I'm gay."  There wasn't a pro-minority entity needed to bring Lewis forward. The disability associations weren't out to elevate a disabled kid into motorsports.  I don't understand why an organization is needed to do an individuals work.  That crux has me feeling this is more hopping on a marketing opportunity.

 

 

FWIW, motorsport has long had AME presence.



#34 maximilian

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 16:41

hrcOurLogo.png



#35 alframsey

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 16:42

I do see what people are saying and yes I agree it is possible it might ghettoise further, the last thing I'd want is a specific LGBTQ+ series, but I do feel some positive could come of this if only to give someone the 'courage' to come out. I guess we will see in time how this works out.



#36 Tsarwash

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 17:27

I'm not saying there is no homophobia in the UK at large. I'm talking about motorsport events.

 

Do you genuinely believe there would be an issue with a gay F1 driver bringing their partner to a race?  :confused:

As alframsey has noted, I see no reason why motorsport or it's followers should be the exception, a set apart from the rest of the country. Can you give me a reason why motorsport in this country is so special that it has no bigots within it or following it ?



#37 Nonesuch

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 17:53

I get the idea that having homosexuals do 'manly' things can be odd to some, and that learning about this might open some minds, but to be honest, if they haven't caught on by now I'm not sure some dude racing is going to tip the scales.

 

As an aside, where do people sign up to all these 'communities'?



#38 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 18:55

LGBTQ+ sounds like name of Mercedes Engine

#39 Maxioos

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 19:25

LGBTQ+ sounds like name of Mercedes Engine

They include all, o wait, if you are straight you are excluded from their privileges?



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#40 CountDooku

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 19:31

I honestly don't know. I also don't know whether same sex parents would be welcome at events with their kids trying to get into carting, or trans partners being welcome at track day events in the lower series. Genuinely I do not know, would there be? There are more than enough examples of it being the case in other areas of life that these people might feel unwelcome so why would motosport be any different?


We are in danger of assuming biases that might not exist.

#41 CountDooku

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 19:35

As alframsey has noted, I see no reason why motorsport or it's followers should be the exception, a set apart from the rest of the country. Can you give me a reason why motorsport in this country is so special that it has no bigots within it or following it ?


The onus to prove that bigotry exists which needs to be tackled by the motorsports pride initiative is on you.

Whilst I agree with alframsey that LBGT people should be able to fully participate in UK motorsports, I frankly don’t agree that they would have any issues doing so.

#42 Tsarwash

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 19:42

The onus to prove that bigotry exists which needs to be tackled by the motorsports pride initiative is on you.

Whilst I agree with alframsey that LBGT people should be able to fully participate in UK motorsports, I frankly don’t agree that they would have any issues doing so.

You are basically saying that homophobia at motorsports doesn't exist, and refuse to give me a reason why this is so, and are telling me that the onus is on me to prove that homophobia in motorsports does exist ? Is this an accurate understanding of your position ?



#43 AustinF1

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 19:48

When straight male drivers bring their wives/girlfriends to races, nobody has ever said that they shouldn't "feel the need to advertise their private lives to the world". 

I didn't say they "shouldn't". I said they "don't". Big difference. There are plenty of straight celebs, athletes, etc who prefer to leave their personal lives out of the public eye, too.


Edited by AustinF1, 06 June 2019 - 19:49.


#44 ANF

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 19:49

Yeah that’s what racing needs... more niché divisions.
NOT.
Jp

Niché divisions?

#45 CountDooku

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 19:51

You are basically saying that homophobia at motorsports doesn't exist, and refuse to give me a reason why this is so, and are telling me that the onus is on me to prove that homophobia in motorsports does exist ? Is this an accurate understanding of your position ?


I am saying that homophobia in motorsports probably does exist in the UK, but, like in the rest of British society, is likely at such a small extent that it won’t prevent a gay driver from having a career as successful as an identical straight driver.

You seem to think that there is enough homophobia in motorsports today to prevent a driver from having a normal racing career. I disagree and the onus is on you to prove it. You of all people know that I can’t prove a negative.

#46 Tsarwash

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 19:53

I am saying that homophobia in motorsports probably does exist in the UK, but, like in the rest of British society, is likely at such a small extent that it won’t prevent a gay driver from having a career as successful as an identical straight driver.

You seem to think that there is enough homophobia in motorsports today to prevent a driver from having a normal racing career. I disagree and the onus is on you to prove it. You of all people know that I can’t prove a negative.

Please point out exactly where I suggested that ? Because I don't like strawman arguments. 



#47 Myrvold

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 19:56

First of all, I hate double posting, but the amount of quotes here makes it better to split it in two. This is something I am passionate about.And weirdly enough, the sole reason today, that I wish we had more money, and that I was more professional as a youngster, so I could live off racing, and being open. Just because I know I wish I had someone to look at when I was a kid, to show "it is possible, there is no issues". While there wasn't that much - but some - negativity around gay people in my racing circle, it was also quite clear that the majority had a "It's fine, just not close to me" attitude. And while I remember it was awesome the races we had grid girls, it felt so much more professional - it was a little feeling in my mind that, heh, we are 34 guys lined up with a girl in front of us. Of course, it is expected that we like girls. I never felt excluded, but at the same time, I never felt like the actual me was included.
 
 

I don’t know why someone’s sexuality is important to their ability to race? Or why it’s important for the viewers to be aware of?

Who people sleep with is their private business and should be incidental to their career, whether it’s in racing or anything else frankly. In fact I’d guess that there were lots of gay drivers out there who don’t talk about it because it’s not our business. Just as in Hollywood.

 
It is not - but as it has been mentioned, wives, girlfriends and family is (too) often being filmed. It would be noticeable to see Jean being listed as Charles' partner. Very noticeable actually
 

Their are plenty of LGBTQ+ people in sport. Most of them just don't feel the need to advertise their private lives to the world.

 
Neither does heterosexual, but we are still very much aware of it, due to what I mentioned above. There are people in the racing world that are "living straight" because it is simpler in terms of their career. 
 

A quick question... why do you feel the need to point out you are gay?  Do you want special treatment or something? I don't get it.
 
And being LGBTQ (how many more characters is this going to get) stops nothing. In the same way being a woman stops nothing.
 
If your good, your good. If Hamilton was gay would Mercedes suddenly drop him? Would other teams not want him? No.... it would change nothing and they would not care if he was gay as he is the best.
 
Using race, sex, being gay etc as an excuse for being held back is simply that... a convenient excuse to somebody's own limitations.
 
IMO.

 
Nope. We all want to be treated as equal human beeings. For me, it means that I want to be allowed to donate blood, which is something there is a lack of where I live. But even though I have no illnesses (tested), I cannot. Because I live with a dude... I want to be able to bring my dude with me, without a care. Some places I can, some I can't (various sporting places is a good example of the latter).
 

Is there really discrimination against gay people in motorsports in the UK? If the person wants to bring a partner to an event what’s stopping them from doing so?

I’m not sure why people look to racing for role models on sexuality?

 
My example was from the UK.

When you are, well - not the norm, and young. It is nice to see someone like you, having a great life, and achieving stuff. If you are young, and somewhat different, you often feel lost, it's always nice to have someone to use as inspiration.
 

Is this still the case in 2019?  I ask because, at least here in Canada, the majority of new major brand TV commercials feature a gay couple.  It's become fashionable.  The progressive media would roast any major corporation that has a scent of being anti gay.

 
It is.

#48 Myrvold

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 19:56

Should LGBT+ drivers feel able to bring same-sex partners to races? Yes. Do they feel able to do so? The absence of any major examples of drivers who have done so suggest not. Why is this? There are perhaps lots of reasons; Myrvold has outlined some of them. Perhaps it's simply that some drivers are afraid to be the first to take the step. If that's the case, then isn't this movement exactly the right step?

 
Merci!
 

Honestly. if we could cut down on the family pictures in the pits overall I would really appreciate it >.< It's the great thing about Sutil being gone that we don't get shots of Jenny Becks when there's racing going on...I mean look at this nonsense https://www.motorspo...sutil/42521439/. You've got a former F1 driver with his girlfriend and the title headlines the girlfriend...it's worse than Lewis and Nicole.

 
Completely agree!
 

This is so absurd I'm stunned! So what's next? Some will use their sexuality as a weapon and harassment methods to get a drive?

 
Really?
 

Firstly we don't know for a fact that gay drivers haven't brought and don't want to bring their partners to races. And if they feel they can't does that say more about the gay driver or of spectators or motorsports in general? 
 
In the UK (which is what the initiative is about) I am fairly certain no one would bat an eyelid, so this seems to me to be more about right-on signalling. I would back this initiative 100% if it was in the UAE or Russia however, where there is a massive problem

 
Eh, however 'we' know for a fact that people decides to not show it, to live as something they might not like - because their dream of something outweighs how scared they are of being open.
 

Apologies for making assumptions about your age but if you are late 20s or older the society you grew up in is markedly different to the one we find ourselves in. LGBT people are all over the media and I doubt any kid growing up today would struggle to find people to identify with.

 
A young racer will have issues finding a role model for racing, if said kid is gay. Now - there is no need to get a gay guy in to top level racing, just as a token diversity thing. That's idiotic.
 

They include all, o wait, if you are straight you are excluded from their privileges?

I find it a non discussion forced on by the powers that we don't control and most "L" and "G" I know dont have anything with Q and for sure not all that falls under the + that includes sometimes P for pedosexual or M for minor attracted persons or U for underage love.

It always was just LGBT. The + can be anything they place there and you instantly are supporting it or are also against the LGBT is the mind control aspect of it.

https://www.lifesite...branding-effort


Eh. Q, queer - is a word used to combined Lesbian, Gay etc. It's not an added thing, and it makes it redundant in the whole letter-soup. And the + never includes anything of what you are listing up when it comes to more, let's call it official channels.
Just like if NAMBLA rebrands themselves, it's still the same poop, and noting to do with being lesbian, gay, bi or whatever.
 

The onus to prove that bigotry exists which needs to be tackled by the motorsports pride initiative is on you.


Is it? One cannot come with anything but own examples, but they cannot be backed up by said drivers, and they don't want people to know. It's a circle.

#49 Muppetmad

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 19:56

The onus to prove that bigotry exists which needs to be tackled by the motorsports pride initiative is on you.

Whilst I agree with alframsey that LBGT people should be able to fully participate in UK motorsports, I frankly don’t agree that they would have any issues doing so.

Well, for sake of argument, let's assume you're right that there are no issues for LGBT+ drivers in Britain. What harm will the movement do? It will publicise a few drivers and post the occasional tweet. To use your phrase, it's a little bit of "signalling" which can be easily ignored by those whom it doesn't interest.

 

The movement can do no harm - but it could do good. Danny Watts has been mentioned in this thread already; he's a concrete example of a driver who did not come out during his career for fear of being discriminated against. Just because you don't see the bigotry doesn't mean it doesn't exist, nor that it wouldn't become more apparent if a driver did come out. Perhaps the movement will serve as a support network of sorts for those who do encounter any bigotry. In any case, at worst, the movement does nothing here. At best, it does some good.

 

I didn't say they "shouldn't". I said they "don't". Big difference. There are plenty of straight celebs, athletes, etc who prefer to leave their personal lives out of the public eye, too.

Fair enough. Apologies for mischaracterising your position.



#50 Cynic2

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 19:59

My experience is in professional sports car racing in the U.S. as that's where I was mostly involved.  I can't really comment on

English racing other than to note that in the '20s and '30s there were some English drivers known to be gay.

 

Without trying very hard I can think of five gay drivers active in fairly high-level professional racing in the past five years.  Not one has chosen to publicly "out"  him- or herself, and it's not my place to do so.

 

Do these people count, or do they have to come out first?