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Marko rant about Mercedes, Pirelli and Liberty


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#51 AustinF1

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Posted 11 June 2019 - 23:52

Oh, I dunno - innocent until proven guilty perhaps?

If the rules say you have to replace like for like, then it shouldn't be incumbent upon the FIA to prove an advantage is being gained. If that's the rule and they replaced a part with a different type of part, then the rule was broken. If that's not the rule, then I don't know why this would even be an issue for the FIA to have to look into to determine if an advantage had been gained, so I don't know why it would have been brought up in the first place. Does anyone here know the rule in question?



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#52 AustinF1

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Posted 11 June 2019 - 23:54

How is that relevant? There is no need for it being "100% identical". 

Is that what the rule says, or isn't it? Anyone know? Like I said above, if that's what the rule says, then I have no idea why it would even be investigated by the FIA or brought up by Gruener.



#53 AustinF1

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Posted 11 June 2019 - 23:55

It wasn't replaced by an "inappropriate part".

How do we know? By "inappropriate", I mean a part that's not identical to the part it replaced when the rule says that's not allowed. 

 

 

How is that relevant? There is no need for it being "100% identical". 

If there's no need, then why did the FIA investigate it and why did Gruener post a second tweet about it 2 days after the race? I don't know why, but it seems like he had reasons.


Edited by AustinF1, 11 June 2019 - 23:59.


#54 beachdrifter

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Posted 11 June 2019 - 23:55

I can not imagine any reason FIA and Liberty would prefer Mercedes winning season after season, but something like this makes for excellent fodder for conspiracy theorists.

 

:cool:

 

I've been on the internet long enough to discover that absolutely everything, everywhere, makes for excellent fodder for conspiracy theorists.



#55 pingu666

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Posted 11 June 2019 - 23:58

the most likely reason is parts are boxed up and shipped quite in advance? for overseas races, so maybe some bits where different, but probably older than what the car was sent over with i guess?



#56 Marklar

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Posted 11 June 2019 - 23:58

Is that what the rule says, or isn't it? Anyone know? Like I said above, if that's what the rule says, then I have no idea why it would even be investigated by the FIA or brought up by Gruener.

Regulations say "similar"

Mercedes was never investigated. The procedure the FIA does for this was just done post-race instead of pre-race since the change was done so late.

As to why Grüner reports it? Clicks.

#57 beachdrifter

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Posted 11 June 2019 - 23:58

Is that what the rule says, or isn't it? Anyone know?

 

"The rules demand that the two parts have to be - in terms of specification and function - at least similar."

 

 

https://www.auto-mot...erme-gp-kanada/



#58 Retrofly

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Posted 11 June 2019 - 23:59

People really clutching at straws trying to drag Merc down now.



#59 AustinF1

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 00:07

People really clutching at straws trying to drag Merc down now.

I dunno about anyone else, but I'm not. My beef is more administrative/process-related. If they didn't break the rule, they didn't break the rule. I have zero problem with that.



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#60 beachdrifter

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 00:08

"Although I can not prove that Helmut Marko is indeed the Antichrist, I can not rule it out, but it does not boost confidence when you look at his clothes, the things he says, the way he says them, because all of that would be exactly how the Antichrist would present himself if he were working for Red Bull. I will look very closely at the future developments on the Marko front, and there will also be discussions with the Pope about it. Thank you."


Edited by beachdrifter, 12 June 2019 - 00:09.


#61 beachdrifter

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 00:11

Also the safety car is a Mercedes! https://www.youtube....h?v=_zrMykBnidM

 

The plot thickens!



#62 Garndell

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 00:12

I dunno about anyone else, but I'm not. My beef is more administrative/process-related. If they didn't break the rule, they didn't break the rule. I have zero problem with that.

 

For simple, honest & hard racing there's Indycar.  If you want "hot mess" then F1 has it in spades.  F1 is almost like a severe alzheimers patient, not all there and prone to the erratic.  Dignitas might be the best thing for F1 in it's current state.



#63 HP

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 00:24

Déjà vu.

 

This all reads like a bit when Ferrari and MSC were the best.



#64 pdac

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 00:37

Is that what the rule says, or isn't it? Anyone know? Like I said above, if that's what the rule says, then I have no idea why it would even be investigated by the FIA or brought up by Gruener.

 

I think the relevant part of the regs is this:

 

Any work not listed above may only be undertaken with the approval of the FIA technical delegate following a written request from the team concerned. It must be clear that any replacement part a team wishes to fit is similar in design, mass, inertia and function to the original. Any parts removed will be retained by the FIA.

 

 

I've highlighted the bit I think is most relevant.

 

Edit: Just realised that I took this from the 2018 regs - may be different for 2019.


Edited by pdac, 12 June 2019 - 00:38.


#65 beachdrifter

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 00:56

Or Marko is crazy to suspect something like this ?

 

Marko is crazy, no doubt about it, but I guess he has to make something up to justify why his "Red Bull will win at least 5 races this season"-prediction won't come to pass. It's not his (their) fault, it's a conspiracy!


Edited by beachdrifter, 12 June 2019 - 01:03.


#66 richardprice

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 01:38

Of course the hydraulics system Hamilton raced with wasn't identical to the one he qualified with - the one he qualified with was leaking fluid faster than Wikileaks, while the one he raced with wasn't.  Thats a pretty huge difference right there...  :p



#67 Reddington

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 02:00

Mercedes are leading car manufacturer, a racing team and an engine supplier to two other teams. Red Bull are a marketing operation for fizzy drinks. Mercedes sell 2.3 million new cars a year, which must make them one of Pirelli's best customers. Red Bull sell zero cars a year meaning they probably don't even have contact in the Pirelli account's department. You don't have to be a Marko to realize one has a bit more influence at Pirelli and the FIA than the other. No conspiracies are needed, it's just how life works.

 

Exactly. No conspiracy, yet definitely there are different ties between entities that just plain and simple can't be denied. Will that have resulted in illegal advantages? No, very likely not. Will Merc have some (maybe even minor) F1 benefits to putting their millions of road cars onto Pirelli's? Do ties get stronger by providing Liberty with cars? Likely.

 

I've learned that in life and business, people do look out for each other and it's naive to think the world doesn't work that way.

 

I get the Marko hate, but it's not a testament of intelligence to just leave it at that. Anyone saying Merc isn't maximizing their power might be a bit ignorant.


Edited by Reddington, 12 June 2019 - 02:02.


#68 Wuzak

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 02:21

Oh, I dunno - innocent until proven guilty perhaps?

 

That may be the way the law operates (at least in some countries), but in F1 the onus is on the teams to demonstrate that their car is legal at all times during an event.



#69 pup

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 02:40

Stripping Lewis of his win based on this after a race where the winner was decided by a penalty would be too much of a shitshow even the most competent PR people couldn't find enough resolve to deal with.

Aww, now I’m all nostalgic for the Max and Bernie show.

#70 Nathan

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 04:32

Mercedes sell 2.3 million new cars a year, which must make them one of Pirelli's best customers. 

 

Continental and Michelin are Merc's OE tires of choice.



#71 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 05:19

He is only Crying because they winning or dominating!

#72 BCM

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 05:47

Man, Marko would be such a fantastic addition to this forum  :rotfl:

 

He'd have the protractors out in a flash!  :rotfl:



#73 pitlanepalpatine

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 06:00

Does Marko forget about the 2013 season when Pirelli increased tyre pressure mid season and Redbull / Vettel went on a nine race winning streak as a result?

 

To be fair, the stupid thing about that was that the other teams asked for that in the hopes it would prove a disadvantage for Red Bull. 



#74 Nonesuch

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 07:42

This seems a bit silly.

 

First of all, teams are allowed to replace parts under parc fermé rules. As it says in the sporting regulations 34.2 "Any work not listed above may only be undertaken with the approval of the FIA technical delegate following a written request from the team concerned. It must be clear that any replacement part a team wishes to fit is similar in design, mass, inertia and function to the original. Any parts removed will be retained by the FIA."

 

Second, Pirelli is demonstrably incompetent. Their tyres are so bad that they've had to change designs during a season multiple times. They constantly miss their pre-season targets for stint duration. They can't design tyres with an operating window wider than a handful of degrees. Their so-called soft tyres can't even last a whole lap at qualifying speeds. The teams are required to run their products at insane pressures to ensure they remain intact. They've even stooped to proclaiming 'pitstop guidelines' to prevent the PR disaster of their tyres falling apart after X+1 laps. Any evil scheme needs to first prove the result is not just more Pirelli nonsense.

 

Third, Mercedes is playing it smart. The other teams are being doofuses. They need to go all-in on the political games. They need to protest every result that so much as smells funny - and not just of oil burning shenanigans. Every time their cars are battling Mercedes they should push them as hard as possible, and then make a stink about the FIA's own badly worded rules.

 

Stop whining, get in the game.



#75 loki

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 08:00

Maybe he already is.

 

*looks around apprehensively*

Have you ever seen JP and Marko in the same room together?  Me neither...



#76 absinthedude

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:11

Pirelli are the official tyre of F1....it only stands to reason that any official vehicle will have Pirelli tyres. 

 

As for official cars...Mercedes probably provided them for promotional purposes.....and it's not like Red Bull are in a position to provide Liberty with their official cars? 

 

Marko has always been a rather sour character. He's great at scouting talent in young drivers and that's why he's at Red Bull....but this entitlement culture at that team needs to stop.....they act like they have some god-given right to win every race, and when they don't they spit out their dummies. 

 

Red bull started out as a fun team......whatever happened to David Coulthard leaping into the Moncao swimming pool wearing a cape? How did that become "We demand to win" ?



#77 Hela

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:15

I dunno about anyone else, but I'm not. My beef is more administrative/process-related. If they didn't break the rule, they didn't break the rule. I have zero problem with that.

 

yeah yeah, we believe you  :stoned:



#78 Reddington

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:21

Red bull started out as a fun team......whatever happened to David Coulthard leaping into the Moncao swimming pool wearing a cape? 

 

David retired, that's what happened. For the rest no change to what I see. Last year Dan leaped into the same pool (and that cape David wore was just a sponsor thingy for a movie). It's an entirely different discussion, but actually, to me RBR is one of the very few teams who have remained fun. The rest all went corporate. Sure, it isn't as crazy anymore as when they entered as a full blown team(s) owner, but that applies to all the teams. In my book for the others it often applies to a further extent. But like I said, that's a completely different topic.


Edited by Reddington, 12 June 2019 - 09:24.


#79 Hela

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:24

I have told Marko several times, when using the Q-TIPS, anytime you feel resistance please STOP

 

This is what happens 



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#80 JeePee

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:25

Continental and Michelin are Merc's OE tires of choice.

Jup. Pirelli's street tyres are also junk. I wouldn't sell my cars on them either.



#81 Hela

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:26

Jup. Pirelli's street tyres are also junk. I wouldn't sell my cars on them either.

 

Just a thought, why don't you just not put them on your cars  :confused:



#82 JeePee

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:30

Just a thought, why don't you just not put them on your cars  :confused:

My reaction should be read as: "I understand why Mercedes choose Michelin, and not Pirelli as their OE tyre."

 

I have Pilot Super Sport's under my own car. No way I'll ever buy a Pirelli.



#83 KeithD68

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:39

Jup. Pirelli's street tyres are also junk. I wouldn't sell my cars on them either.


My Audi came with a set of P zeros from the dealer and I have found them to be excellent tyres.

#84 Marklar

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:40

I legit never saw Pirelli tyres on any road car in my whole life  :p



#85 CountDooku

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:41

Continental and Michelin are Merc's OE tires of choice.

 

I believe the Merc AMGs are Pirelli-shod. At least the GT-line are.



#86 CountDooku

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:42

I legit never saw Pirelli tyres on any road car in my whole life  :p

 

All McLarens sold are on Pirelli P-Zeros, Corsa or Trofeo-R.



#87 Retrofly

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:45

Pirelli's are quite common on motorcycles. Especially if you want really soft sticky rubber. Used to run Pirelli supercorsas all the time, you could buy part worns from garages where the edges had been wrecked but the tread was perfectly fine.



#88 CountDooku

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:46

For all of Marko's whining the fact remains that Merc are just doing a much, much, much better job than everyone else. And the fact that they have changed the rules in a big way TWICE now has just helped entrench them.

We must not forget that it was RBR who pushed the aero-heavy 2017-18 rule set because F1 was too much of an "engine formula", only to be overtaken by Ferrari. Toto says it best:

 

 

Mercedes F1 boss Toto Wolff said changing the rules might not have the outcome some would like.

"The default reaction in the past when big teams were running away was to change the [regulations] in the hope people will catch up," he said.

"The opposite is the case. If you leave regulations alone, eventually performance will converge."

Changes were made to the front wing rules and tyre construction for this season with the intention of making the racing better, but the effect has been the opposite because Mercedes have adapted better and dominated the season.

Wolff said: "As in the past, teams lobby for change because they believe rolling the dice can be an advantage for them. In 2019, none of that has happened. So we are back to square one.

"We are making that mistake over and over again but it is very difficult from our position to be credible and be heard because people believe we want to maintain the rules as they are to maintain our advantage."

 


Edited by CountDooku, 12 June 2019 - 09:46.


#89 Lotusse7en

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:47

Accusing the FIA, Liberty, Mercedes and Pirelli of collusion and cheating is a nasty spiteful accusation that has crossed way over the line 

 

I'd charge him with bringing the sport into disrepute

 

Not enough , he must get a 5 sec penalty as well  :cat:



#90 CSF

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:50

Déjà vu.

 

This all reads like a bit when Ferrari and MSC were the best.

 

Indeed, or Red Bull and thier front wings during 09-13! 

 

I think the difference is the cheerleaders for Mercedes dominance often tend to be the people who derided it before, probably due to nationalistic tendencies in the UK.



#91 Ramon69

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:57

I hate conspiracy theories, but before I jump in the Oh-look!-He-moans-because-he-isn't-winning-anymore bandwagon, there were far too many regulation changes and penalties given (or not given) which ended up being in favour of Mercedes... 



#92 JeePee

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 10:00

I believe the Merc AMGs are Pirelli-shod. At least the GT-line are.

The AMG's are also on Michelin's.

 

All McLarens sold are on Pirelli P-Zeros, Corsa or Trofeo-R.

For commercial reasons indeed. A lot of owners switch to Michelin's when their P-Zero's are done.



#93 F1matt

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 10:05

A simple solution would be to allow additional tyre manufacturers into the sport, bring Goodyear back and Bridgestone then teams have their own choice.....



#94 Pimpwerx

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 10:05

Regulations say "similar"

Mercedes was never investigated. The procedure the FIA does for this was just done post-race instead of pre-race since the change was done so late.

As to why Grüner reports it? Clicks.

And one look at this thread shows that people fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

 

Here's a not so tiny suggestion:

 

Read the bleeping rules before you spout off stupid conspiracies.

 

WTF is happening to this forum this week? Has everyone lost their goddamn minds? Before you jump to irrational conclusions, make sure you are properly informed. This is like Common Sense 101. Some of you act like you'd throw an innocent man to the guillotine, without even trying to understand the specifics of the accusations. THIS is why witch hunts were possible, because people are, by and large, bleeping rubes. What century is this?


Edited by Pimpwerx, 12 June 2019 - 10:06.


#95 TheGoldenStoffel

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 10:06

Marko is crazy, no doubt about it, but I guess he has to make something up to justify why his "Red Bull will win at least 5 races this season"-prediction won't come to pass. It's not his (their) fault, it's a conspiracy!

 

It's never ever Red Bull, Marko, Horner or Verstappen's fault



#96 Fatgadget

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 10:12

The AMG's are also on Michelin's.

 

For commercial reasons indeed. A lot of owners switch to Michelin's when their P-Zero's are done.

You got any numbers to back this up?



#97 Pimpwerx

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 10:14

I legit never saw Pirelli tyres on any road car in my whole life  :p

It's a regional thing. Here in Thailand, we don't see Goodyear and Firestone, for example. It's Korean, Japanese, and Pirelli brands. In the states, Goodyear and Firestone seemingly dominate. I'm assuming Pirelli is fairly popular in eastern parts of Europe. I assume it's because it's cheaper to distribute in bulk around local regions.



#98 Fatgadget

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 10:20

A simple solution would be to allow additional tyre manufacturers into the sport, bring Goodyear back and Bridgestone then teams have their own choice.....

Is it that simple? Perhaps you were not around when Bridgestone built tyres around the Ferraris and everyone else making do with what they were given!



#99 Pimpwerx

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 10:21

For all of Marko's whining the fact remains that Merc are just doing a much, much, much better job than everyone else. And the fact that they have changed the rules in a big way TWICE now has just helped entrench them.

We must not forget that it was RBR who pushed the aero-heavy 2017-18 rule set because F1 was too much of an "engine formula", only to be overtaken by Ferrari. Toto says it best:

A number of posters on here predicted this too. When 2021 rolls around, we might only see Mercedes extend their advantage. Things seem to get more competitive when the rules are static, as it gives the teams with smaller budgets a chance to refine their existing designs to catch up. We see this on the engine side of things, where the regs have been pretty stable, and now Renault and Honda have been catching up to Mercedes, while Ferrari has surpassed them. But with the car design constantly changing, Mercedes gets to leverage their much larger team size to their advantage. So they have an innate ability to hit the ground running, whereas the smaller teams have to hope they hit a homerun, otherwise Merc's in-season development will always outpace them. Static rules will incur the law of diminishing returns, thus allowing the relative gaps between teams to shrink.

 

That said I'm fine with the rules changes, as a Mercedes fan. It means the other teams don't have anything to complain about when we win, because it was their urging that caused the board to tilt in our favor once again.



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#100 KevD

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 10:21

It's very easy to just ridicule what Marco is saying. But in fact only a few are really addressing the point he's trying to make.

 

I really don't know when 'politics' become a conspiracy but what I don't understand is why FIA / Liberty are not making more of an effort in avoiding the appearance of a conflict of interests. What would be the reaction next year if the tyres were reverted to 2018 specs and all F1 officials would have switched to Astons?