322 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

LMP1

Toyota: Sébastien Buemi, Kazuki Nakajima, Brendon Hartley

Toyota: Kamui Kobayashi, José María López, Mike Conway

Rebellion-Gibson:

Rebellion-Gibson:

SMP-AER:

SMP-AER:

Ginetta-AER:

Ginetta-AER:

 

LMP2

Signatech-Alpine Alpine-Gibson: Thomas Laurend, André Negrão, Pierre Thiriet

Jackie Chan Oreca-Gibson:

Racing Team Netherlands Oreca-Gibson: Guido Van der Garde, Nyck de Vries, Frits van Eerd

United Autosports Ligier-Gibson: Paul di Resta, Filipe Albuquerque, Phil Hanson

High Class Oreca-Gibson: Mark Patterson

Jota Oreca-Gibson: Pastor Maldonado, Anthony Davidson, Roberto González

Cool Oreca-Gibson: Nicolas Lapierre

Cetillar Dallara-Gibson: Andrea Belicchi, Roberto Lacorte, Giorgio Sernagiotto

 

GTE-Pro

Porsche: Michael Christensen, Kévin Estre

Porsche: Gianmaria Bruni, Richard Lietz

AF Corse Ferrari:

AF Corse Ferrari:

Aston Martin:

Aston Martin:

 

GTE-Am

Project 1 Porsche:

Project 1 Porsche:

Dempsey-Proton Porsche:

Dempsey-Proton Porsche:

TF Aston Martin:

AF Corse Ferrari:

AF Corse Ferrari: Emmanuel Collard, François Perrodo

Gulf Porsche:

Aston Martin: Paul Dalla Lana

MR Ferrari:

Red River Ferrari: Johnny Mowlem, Bonamy Grimes

 

Part-time-entries expected

Kolles-Gibson LMP1

G-Drive Oreca-Gibson LMP2

 

So interesting to see who will fill the free cockpits.

Edited by HistoryFan, 22 June 2019 - 10:21.

[Vielleicht]

So SMP are apparently withdrawing their entry from the upcoming 2019/20 season.

https://www.autospor...from-201920-wec

 

Appear to be citing grounds of having no confidence in being able to compete against the Hybrids and presumably not being content to sit around hoping to mop up a win in the event of a Toyota slip up.

 

Leaves only 4 cars from Rebellion and Ginetta on the entry list to challenge the 2 from Toyota. But will they stay as well?

[Henri Greuter]

As far as I'm concerned: Cancel that LMP1 & LMP1-HY category and make LMP2 the primary category.
Last so called `superseason` was a joke, now it becomes a bad joke....

[HistoryFan]

Will be interesting to see what SMP will do now? Aleshin back to IndyCar perhaps?

[messy]

SMP going is rotten news for LMP1. Were becoming Toyota’s closest “threat” and offering drivers like Vandoorne a great chance.

Rebellion are Rebellion, if they can somehow conspire to be no threat whatsoever despite the #1 car having Jani, Lotterer and Senna, I doubt they’re going to be any closer this season.

[f1paul]

As far as I'm concerned: Cancel that LMP1 & LMP1-HY category and make LMP2 the primary category.
Last so called `superseason` was a joke, now it becomes a bad joke...

That's pretty much what ELMS is right now (athough ELMS does have LMP3 and the GT teams are privateers)

[TomNokoe]

Massively shocked to see SMP pull out. We know LMP1 is out of the door, but it's swansong is a huge shambles.

Edited by TomNokoe, 08 July 2019 - 17:14.

[Ben1445]

I'm not really sure what the ACO is meant to do with Toyota's advantage other than full on BoP the hybrid's endurance superiority away. Otherwise there's no way I can see that the non-hybrids can compete over the course of the race. But then you have to be fair to Toyota who had committed significant time and investment to these LMP1-H rules. It would be a sort of artificial, hollow victory for the non-hybrids the other way because it would be like beating Mo Farah because he's dragging a sofa along behind him. 

 

You could tell Toyota to just ... go away... but then what a way to treat the manufacturer that saved the opening season from what would have been a very similar Audi vs the privateers domination in 2012. That might jeopardise their commitment to Hypercars. 

 

Or perhaps you could try and convince Toyota to sell their TS050 to the privateers. It would be a bit like a spec series perhaps just with a load of Toyota Hybrids all going for it and Toyota need not even enter a factory team, just sit back recouping money from privateer sales, let a privateer bag a Toyota win and work on their Hypercar for 2020/21. Ship has probably sailed on that though and I'm sure it would fall foul of some anti-monopoly regulation or something. Ah well. 

 

I think what the ACO always wanted/needed in LMP1-H was for someone to develop a customer Hybrid engine program for the privateers, but that never happened. Certainly since the Super-season it sounds like the privateers have all been moaning that the ACO wasn't pegging the Toyotas back enough and how unfair it was instead of pushing their engine suppliers to work out how to make a customer hybrid powertrain cost effective. That would have been a great contribution to hybrid development, driving down their costs and benefitting race series worldwide and perhaps even to the general driving public. But no, it was just moan that the ACO were being mean and then quitting when they didn't get what they wanted. 

Edited by Ben1445, 08 July 2019 - 18:56.

[Cornholio]

I'm not really sure what the ACO is meant to do with Toyota's advantage other than full on BoP the hybrid's endurance superiority away. Otherwise there's no way I can see that the non-hybrids can compete over the course of the race. But then you have to be fair to Toyota who had committed significant time and investment to these LMP1-H rules. It would be a sort of artificial, hollow victory for the non-hybrids the other way because it would be like beating Mo Farah because he's dragging a sofa along behind him. 

 

You could tell Toyota to just ... go away... but then what a way to treat the manufacturer that saved the opening season from what would have been a very similar Audi vs the privateers domination in 2012. That might jeopardise their commitment to Hypercars. 

 

Or perhaps you could try and convince Toyota to sell their TS050 to the privateers. It would be a bit like a spec series perhaps just with a load of Toyota Hybrids all going for it and Toyota need not even enter a factory team, just sit back recouping money from privateer sales, let a privateer bag a Toyota win and work on their Hypercar for 2020/21. Ship has probably sailed on that though and I'm sure it would fall foul of some anti-monopoly regulation or something. Ah well. 

 

I think what the ACO always wanted/needed in LMP1-H was for someone to develop a customer Hybrid engine program for the privateers, but that never happened. Certainly since the Super-season it sounds like the privateers have all been moaning that the ACO wasn't pegging the Toyotas back enough and how unfair it was instead of pushing their engine suppliers to work out how to make a customer hybrid powertrain cost effective. That would have been a great contribution to hybrid development, driving down their costs and benefitting race series worldwide and perhaps even to the general driving public. But no, it was just moan that the ACO were being mean and then quitting when they didn't get what they wanted. 

 

Agree with most of this - but also worth adding that in a hypothetical scenario where Toyota with their resources and recent endurance experience had designed and developed a non-hybrid LMP1 without any EoT going on, they'd probably have been just as dominant as the only manufacturer left standing - like Audi v Pescarolo all over again. No disrespect to Pescarolo - or Rebellion or SMP who represent the top tier of sportscar privateers, but all things being equal Toyota would likely have won comfortably anyway.

 

But yeah that said, one of my regrets of the LMP1-H ruleset was that none of these fantastic cars found their way into private hands in the same way 956/62s or R8s would in the past. Or even just the engines themselves. Rebellion actually used Toyota (non-hybrid) engines in the early WEC days and I remember hoping back then that when the technology matured a little they may be able to secure the engine from the works Toyotas to build their car around. Like how Porsche way back when not only sold their Group C cars, but also the engines to the likes of Courage and Kremer for their own cars.

 

Why that didn't happen - whether they'd have just been too complex for a privateer to operate effectively, or whether an FE-style fixed engine price regulation would actually have helped there who knows, it's a shame though as either of the above would probably have helped the championship and the ruleset as a whole survive the VAG withdrawals, even if as I say Toyota factory would likely still be heavy favourites, there would surely have been a lot less negativity and more of a chance to keep the regulations more stable awaiting other potential manufacturer involvement.

Edited by Cornholio, 09 July 2019 - 11:04.

[Henri Greuter]

The only rumour I have ever heard about LMP1-HY's to customers was a vague rumour about penske racing obtaining the latest Audis to put up a program to bring Penkes back to le mans, other then that.

On the other hand, are those complicated HY's the kind of cars that privateer teams can maintain and employ to get the max out of them????
Wat kind of team structure would be needed to field such a car in privateer teams?

[Ben1445]

The only rumour I have ever heard about LMP1-HY's to customers was a vague rumour about penske racing obtaining the latest Audis to put up a program to bring Penkes back to le mans, other then that.

On the other hand, are those complicated HY's the kind of cars that privateer teams can maintain and employ to get the max out of them????
What kind of team structure would be needed to field such a car in privateer teams?

The thing is this is the point. Motorsport should be pushing to make new technology better, easier to use and cheaper to implement. The LMP1 Hybrids were expensive as they were developing systems that were new and unique, meaning they cost more than a version produced on a larger, commercial scale. They were perhaps beyond the capability of a privateer because there were fewer people out there with the experience to operate them. That rarer experience is worth more in both lap-time and engineer's salary.
 
What should have started happening over the course of the last seven or so years, however, is that the technology would be improved, it would become more commercial, there would be economies of scale coming into play and there would be more engineers with the knowledge of how to use it who could be hired for a competitive rate for privateer entries. Even then, if you buy an engine deal as a privateer, that almost always seems to include technical support over a season, so a hybrid powertrain manufacturer would take on that side of things as they do already. That is the development we were supposed to see with this technology. Instead there's not really been any reported attempts to do this and the privateers have just wanted to be BoP'd/EoT'd to the front, seemingly not even pushing to get the benefit of a new technology becoming more mature (wether that is the fault of the privateers or the ACO is probably a debate in itself).
 
What about when fancy electronics and computers entered the scene? First the big teams with large budgets and experience introduce it and prove its value, then as it matures suppliers are able to sell these fancy units  to privateers for a fraction fo the cost. Now all the privateers are running engines with fancy electronics, detailed telemetry etc. that would have seemed so very far beyond their expertise when it was introduced. Another example is that when Formula E introduced brake by wire before the current season, they didn't develop brand new, complicated braking control units to balance the regenerative braking with the friction braking - they tapped into existing knowledge and for the most part bought a state of the art unit developed for (you guessed it) the braking systems in LMP1-H. 

 

So instead of marvelling at how Hybrids have become more practical in terms of cost and complexity, we have a ruleset/class structure that has completely failed to transfer the advances made at the top down to the next tier. We have privateers pulling out because they don't have the will/time/reason to adopt the maturing hybrid technology. We have an upcoming LMP1 ruleset that makes the inclusion of a hybrid entirely optional, rather than an achievable norm. 

 

Instead we are sat here, with many believing that hybrids are fundamentally too expensive and always will be. And that is the real tragedy. 

Edited by Ben1445, 09 July 2019 - 12:14.

[muramasa]

Denso and Aisin can easily put TS050's hybrid parts into mass production, in terms of production capacity. Also if you simplify, standardize and freeze the spec, it's possible to make Toyota's hybrid system a standard, compatible kit at cheaper price or turn TS050 or the next Hypercar into customer model, both of which Toyota themselves use too, much like Audi R8. Cost and expertise on the side of teams engineers and mechanics are surely issue, but I dont think it's impossible or technical standard too high to clear.

If they started to work on the framework like that immediately when Porsche announced withdrawal, it would have been possible to introduce/incorporate it in time for 2020 season.

I think the obstacle is that those suppliers like Denso and Aisin need assurance that it will be used by at least 3-4 teams for like 5 years at minimum. If they increase production volume and capacity then either some teams withdraw or change to other suppliers or ACO keep changing rules or breaking promise, that's too high risk to take for them.

Edited by muramasa, 09 July 2019 - 13:08.

[red stick]

I think what the ACO always wanted/needed in LMP1-H was for someone to develop a customer Hybrid engine program for the privateers, but that never happened. Certainly since the Super-season it sounds like the privateers have all been moaning that the ACO wasn't pegging the Toyotas back enough and how unfair it was instead of pushing their engine suppliers to work out how to make a customer hybrid powertrain cost effective.

 

So, a modern Cosworth?  That may have been the aim, but it seems rather impractical--there's no economy of scale here with just 4-8, maybe, privateer teams looking to buy your technology.  More likely the ACO had no fallback position if the major manufacturers quit, and frankly, designing a new series of rules around the automotive powerhouse that is Aston Martin seems quixotic, to put it mildly, as well. 

[Burai]

I'm not sure you'd ever get that hybrid tech down far enough in cost for it to be worth it for privateers when those upgraded Gibson LMP2 lumps are so cheap. As we've seen in F1, you can buy the best PU out there, it'll only take you so far without that manufacturer budget and support to maximise the package.

[Ben1445]

So, a modern Cosworth?  That may have been the aim, but it seems rather impractical--there's no economy of scale here with just 4-8, maybe, privateer teams looking to buy your technology.  More likely the ACO had no fallback position if the major manufacturers quit, and frankly, designing a new series of rules around the automotive powerhouse that is Aston Martin seems quixotic, to put it mildly, as well. 

Well that is a valid point if you're thinking strictly in terms of LMP1 privater only supply... and it is probably what happened as well. However, there is economy of scale if you're able to spread it out over multiple categories and multiple series.
 
What if the ACO had put out a tender for a spec hybrid system to be added to the LMP2s? They say what power it needs to be and put a cap on what it should cost. Someone like Williams Advanced Engineering or McLaren Applied Technologies may have won the contract and begun producing bolt on units in much greater numbers than 4-8 for some privateers. They could be producing up to maybe 100 of these things for worldwide use, especially if IMSA had been able to do so with their DPi. That would put such company in a very strong position to supply a beefed up version for an LMP1 privateer for a little extra cash. The same theory can be extended to many other categories, the more the merrier, but the LMP2 example is one the ACO have had control over. The more hybrids there are in global motorsport the cheaper they will be and the better they will become. That's the way it's always been for technological advances and the maturation of that technology. 

I'm just very sad that failure to see this for the motorsport scene at a macroscopic level has resulted in folks believing that hybrid tech is fundamentally too expensive and always will be. I really do think a lot of it is down to the so-called 'purists' who want to resist anything to do with electrification out of an irrational dislike for it, in everyone from fans to inevitably some of those who call the shots.

[Dr. Austin]

LMP1

Toyota: Sébastien Buemi, Kazuki Nakajima, Brendon Hartley

Toyota: Kamui Kobayashi, José María López, Mike Conway

Rebellion-Gibson:

Rebellion-Gibson:

SMP-AER:

SMP-AER:

Ginetta-AER:

Ginetta-AER:

 

 

 

SMP announced they are pulling out and while I love the Ginetta, they don't have a good history of showing up on race day. Rebellion, as of now, has not nominated any drivers, and there is speculation they will pull out too. 

 

Nothing says a championship is unimportant quite like no one bothering to contest it. 

 

So, the FIA's answer is make everyone throw their stuff away and start over again with $30 million hyper cars? Not hard to see how the WEC became so utterly pitiful with those geniuses running (ruining) things.

[red stick]

ByKolles and Glickenhaus will save us!

 

[AlexPrime]

I am not a SMP fan, but I will miss them on the grid. Hopefully Rebellion and Ginetta will compete. I also expect ByKolles to return!

[Joseki]

ByKolles will return as long as there is money to laundry.

[boomn]

The thing is this is the point. Motorsport should be pushing to make new technology better, easier to use and cheaper to implement. 

Not everyone agrees with that, and that's such a big part of the tension and issues now in so many series

[Ben1445]

SMP announced they are pulling out and while I love the Ginetta, they don't have a good history of showing up on race day. Rebellion, as of now, has not nominated any drivers, and there is speculation they will pull out too. 

 

Nothing says a championship is unimportant quite like no one bothering to contest it. 

 

So, the FIA's answer is make everyone throw their stuff away and start over again with $30 million hyper cars? Not hard to see how the WEC became so utterly pitiful with those geniuses running (ruining) things.

Point of note: that figure of €25m/$30m is from the June 2018 iteration of the Hypercar rules, which required a purpose built chassis not based on a road car. The current set don't have any official note on expected budgets, in part because the road-based change complicates the whole budgets issue. How much of, say, the Valkyrie development cost is attributed to the road car side and how much is to the racing side.

 

Also we are hearing noises about customer programs from Aston. It will all be BoP'd anyway, so no need to spend crazy amounts. The chassis and engine are already developed so lop €10m off of the old target Hypercar budget. Hypothetically then, let's say they spent only €15m to convert and race the Valkyrie for a season and then offer the cars at £1.5m a piece rolling chassis plus €0.5m for a years technical support* to a privateer customer, who buys 2. They therefore recoup at least €4m in year 2. With three more years left of homologation they can get another million a year from the existing customer, taking that avenue up to €7m. Let's say in year three they add two more customers each buying two cars at the same rates for years 3-5 of the chassis homologation, that's €6m for the cars plus €2m a year from these new teams for three years, so another €12m. That would be €19m coming in across the 5 years for an original investment of €15m. If so, it could be a very interesting prospect (of course, they may choose to just spend the money each year and race their own factory ones and not worry too much about making any profit on the program, putting it down as part of the marketing budget.) 

 

Ideally that's what we should have been able to see from LMP1-H, but no obligation to sell to privateers and budgets north of €100m meant that it was never really an attractive option. 

 

_{*Not all that much more than Ginetta pricing for the same service.} 

Edited by Ben1445, 09 July 2019 - 18:40.

[Ben1445]

Not everyone agrees with that, and that's such a big part of the tension and issues now in so many series

Fair point, not everyone does. And it depends on the series in question. Much of motorsport (especially Le Mans, and even the original aim of the Indy 500) has been about proving and improving technology on the track. Much of the funding to go racing has come from that source, like it or not. 

 

As for wether motorsport should just abandon this 100 year old model and become simply about pure entertainment and spectacle? Well, that's a very long discussion indeed. 

[muramasa]

Not everyone agrees with that, and that's such a big part of the tension and issues now in so many series

 

Motorsport is about implementing newer tech, even at grass roots level. Quite a few series look to be doing the same thing for decade or two but actually they are all advancing as a whole. Issue is cost of course, hybrid raises cost and tech hurdle for sure but scale merit is already there, the tech has become commodity enough, but they just dont do it. Honda was running hybrid for CR-Z and NSX in SuperGT, both GT300 and GT500 classes, like 4-6 years ago by developing with UK's Zytek, all exclusively, it's not expensive series and there is no way Honda spent astronomical amount of money for that, so even at the point of 5 years ago it was possible to do alone at reasonable cost.  

As long as spec is fixed and order for next 3-5 years is secured, Denso and Aisin can confirm the lines and shift into mass production right away. At least LMP1 class can be all standard hybrid, and if hybrid kit (either hybrid part only, whole drivetrain, base chassis platform excl. upper body but incl. whole drivetrain, or whole chassis) is standard, affordable and compatible, some teams from LMP2 should move to LMP1 as well. Not easy peasy but realistic and possible, worth challenge, fit for WEC. New manufacturers can join in with their own hybrid system, it's not difficult to mandate them to make to the standard kit specification at all.

Currently Toyota is the only maker in the sport with hybrid, who already have existing production lines in their suppliers and themselves, so for the next 5 years Toyota provides standard hybrid kit for all privateers as well as some other makers, this way the cost reduction is achieved, then they can decide what to do after the 5 years later. Something like that was and still is totally doable. But again, they just dont do it.

[Dr. Austin]

Those of you pushing for mass produced spec hybrid units might want to ask yourselves what's the point? If it's spec there's not going to be any development, so the only reason the unit would even be there would be to make the cars more complex and expensive. What other reason would you have for requiring that other than to virtue signal how green and responsible we are, and how we are going to save the planet? It's not about making the racing any better......it's about showing how green and pure we are.

[Joseki]

United Autosports switch to Oreca for WEC because Ligier isn't competitive enough.

 

 

 

The 2017 regs murdered P2.

[proviz]

Those of you pushing for mass produced spec hybrid units might want to ask yourselves what's the point? If it's spec there's not going to be any development, so the only reason the unit would even be there would be to make the cars more complex and expensive. What other reason would you have for requiring that other than to virtue signal how green and responsible we are, and how we are going to save the planet? It's not about making the racing any better......it's about showing how green and pure we are.

 

And it's not even that - at least with any credibility - because it wouldn't be pushing the development of hybrids in any sense.

[Ben1445]

If it's spec there's not going to be any development, so the only reason the unit would even be there would be to make the cars more complex and expensive. What other reason would you have for requiring that other than to virtue signal how green and responsible we are, and how we are going to save the planet? It's not about making the racing any better......it's about showing how green and pure we are.

A modern hybrid system will increase both pace and stint length to be superior to a car without one, which is especially important in endurance racing. So it’s making the cars perform better. What’s to say a spec hybrid unit can’t pay for itself over its lifetime in fuel savings? That consideration rarely gets mention...
 
In addition your view that there is 'no development' isn’t taking everything into account. There is development, just not directly on the track. Every 2-3 years, say, when the supply tender is refreshed, there is competition between suppliers to develop the best system they can to win the contract. Also, just the act of being able to supply a larger number of hybrid kits cost effectively is a technological development in itself - especially considering how much you love telling us how expensive they have been. 
 
I tell you what though, the whole ‘virtue signalling’ thing as you put it is closer to the mark then the rest.  I will remind you, however, that demonstrating the latest road technology and trends on the race-track to prove their durability to the public is literally what like races Le Mans and the Indy 500 were established to do. So if the public is growing more environmentally conscious and the automotive industry is increasingly having to adapt to that, yes, you can bet your bottom dollar they’re going to do what they’ve always done in these situations and take hybrids to the track. They’re literally just doing what they’ve always done since motorsport began. 
 

Those of you pushing for mass produced spec hybrid units might want to ask yourselves what's the point?

The only thing I’m asking myself is what's the point of is taking the time to make this argument as you obviously have it in for electrification and I’m sure you will just ignore this and believe what you want to believe anyway. Maybe I’m just hoping someone else will read it and they will be spared from the tragedy of only ever hearing one, flawed viewpoint.

Edited by Ben1445, 10 July 2019 - 18:12.

[Ben1445]

And it's not even that - at least with any credibility - because it wouldn't be pushing the development of hybrids in any sense.

Read my previous post. 

[Henri Greuter]

United Autosports switch to Oreca for WEC because Ligier isn't competitive enough.

 

 

 

The 2017 regs murdered P2.

 

Racing Team Holland also dropping a non-Oreca for an Oreca....

Something needs to be done to save the other manufacturers.

[Dr. Austin]

 

The only thing I’m asking myself is what's the point of is taking the time to make this argument as you obviously have it in for electrification and I’m sure you will just ignore this and believe what you want to believe anyway. Maybe I’m just hoping someone else will read it and they will be spared from the tragedy of only ever hearing one, flawed viewpoint.

 

Since all you have is making it about what you merely assume I believe, let's go that way. You know so much about me and what I believe, right? 

 

Or not, but since you seem so interested: My job is testing, demonstrating and developing ultra high performance electric RC aircraft, so don't assume what my position is, especially when you don't know anything about me.

 

You may want to rethink your statement about me having it in for electrification when I'm the one guy here who makes his living developing and demonstrating lithium polymer battery technology! You can't even make stuff like this up, except that is, you did.

 

But, that is probably what some have to do to continue in the delusion that any of this hybrid junk makes any sense. While wasting time and resources to go completely electric, Hybrid proponents are virtue signalling about how good, and green and pure they are for worshiping at the hybrid alter.  Meanwhile, the FIA has reduced what used to be the world manufacturers championship to one manufacturer! It's the world championship of no one and nowhere, but it's got hybrids so it must be good, right? One manufacturer shows up and this is the future you want?

 

One can virtue signal all one wants about how great hybrids are, but they make the competition so complicated and expensive that Toyota is the only one that even bothered to show up. Personally I think a world championship should be better than that.

 

While we are on the topic of what I believe about electric power and all, come get some:

 

Edited by Dr. Austin, 10 July 2019 - 19:04.

[Dr. Austin]

Racing Team Holland also dropping a non-Oreca for an Oreca....

Something needs to be done to save the other manufacturers.

 

Too bad. They actually had some good races (if not results) with that car.

[Ben1445]

But, that is probably what some have to do to continue in the delusion that any of this hybrid junk makes any sense. While wasting time and resources to go completely electric, Hybrid proponents are virtue signalling about how good, and green and pure they are for worshiping at the hybrid alter.  Meanwhile, the FIA has reduced what used to be the world manufacturers championship to one manufacturer! It's the world championship of no one and nowhere, but it's got hybrids so it must be good, right? One manufacturer shows up and this is the future you want?

 

One can virtue signal all one wants about how great hybrids are, but they make the competition so complicated and expensive that Toyota is the only one that even bothered to show up. Personally I think a world championship should be better than that.

Oh shut the you know what up about "virtue signalling" -  you obviously have a bee in your bonnet about that and seem obsessed with it. Or maybe you are just using that to steamroller everyone else and avoid a proper, reasoned discussion... who knows. Not exactly my problem though. 

 

As for the bolded sections  I can tell you obviously haven't been reading much of what I've said. I have continuously and repeatedly criticised the ACO/FIA management of LMP1-H and I completely agree that what we have ended up with it far below what we should expect from a World Championship - the only difference between us is that I separate the value of the underlying technology from the bureaucratic failures that led us here, where as you dump the blame entirely on the hybrids as the sole, fundamental cause. 

[boomn]

Motorsport is about implementing newer tech, even at grass roots level. 

What I pick up in the interviews I've read and listened to with people involved in teams from any level, is that motorsport is about out-engineering (or out-cheating) everyone else for a chance to win.  They have competition in their blood.  The kind of issues we're discussing here with rulesets enforcing new technology and using that to improve the tech are more often originating from people who can capitalize on the improvements in commercial markets, i.e. large manufacturers or other vendors serving those manufacturers.  The independent motorsport people only seem interested in this to make sure they keep the interest of the manufacturers.

[Dr. Austin]

Oh shut the you know what up about "virtue signalling" -  you obviously have a bee in your bonnet about that and seem obsessed with it. Or maybe you are just using that to steamroller everyone else and avoid a proper, reasoned discussion... who knows. Not exactly my problem though. 

 

 

 

Try to assume a little less about who I am and what my motivations are.If we stick to the discussion it will be a lot better.

 

 

The hybrids dragged the world championship down to where it is now, which is nowhere. Man, let's get some more of that, ok? 

Edited by Dr. Austin, 10 July 2019 - 22:25.

[Ben1445]

you can't address what I have to say ...

Excuse me? I certainly have addressed a lot of what you have to say. It’s there, plain for all to see in this thread. You have hardly had anything to say about those comments, just reverting back to a simple, dismissive assertion with no back up. So take a look at yourself before throwing that accusation at me.

The hybrids dragged the world championship down to where it is now, which is nowhere. Man, let's get some more of that, ok?

And there’s that simple, dismissive assertion with no back up again, so no, NOT ok.

I disagree that the hybrid technology alone has caused the problems we see in LMP1, rather the management of its introduction (amongst other things). Why I think that is well documented in this thread and others, so go back and read what I’ve said generally and in what I have said addressing your comments and you’ll see I actually have reasoning behind that opinion.

I’m not going to change my mind just because someone shouts at me that the opposite is true and asks me to just be ‘ok’ with it.

[Vielleicht]

Right.

Ben, I mostly agree with your position but I suggest you stop dragging Dr.Austins character through the mud after each of your posts. It’s not really helping.

Dr.Austin, I’ll be honest I really am struggling to see how your argument amounts to anything that much more substantial than “boo hybrids, they’re the worst”. Try and rise above the taunts and maybe explain why the challenges put to your argument have failed to sway you? I myself would be interested to know at least...

[Dr. Austin]

I appreciate that you framed your questions and argument in a respectful way.

 

 

 

Dr.Austin, I’ll be honest I really am struggling to see how your argument amounts to anything that much more substantial than “boo hybrids, they’re the worst”. Try and rise above the taunts and maybe explain why the challenges put to your argument have failed to sway you? I myself would be interested to know at least...

 

Hybrid endurance racing is simply not working. That's all there is to it. You have a single manufacturer show up while the privateers are getting fed up and dropping out. How can anyone say this series is working? It's been broken since the first day.

 

No one wants to race hybrids except Toyota, and no one else is showing up to race except the privateers who were sold pie in the sky that the rules would allow them to be competitive. This has been so consistent that the privateers are simply leaving. No reason to keep racing when the deck is stacked against you. The smart privateers will never again trust the FIA to look after them. 

 

How many privateer teams have run a hybrid? They haven't because they don't have the resources or the right people. Too complex? Probably. Too expensive? Probably too expensive too, especially since the smallest estimate I saw for a factory budget was over $100 million. Not hard to see how the privateers never saw any value in that. Like, it's easy to champion an expensive "cause" when it's not your money, isn't it?

 

 

If the manufacturers thought hybrids were such a great idea, why do we only have a single manufacturer in what's supposed to be a manufacturers championship? Where are the rest who have so much faith in this idea? 

 

So, why? Why doesn't any other manufacturer see the value in WEC hybrids? Porsche gave up on it. Audi gave up on it, and with Toyota those six cars were the zenith of hybrid endurance racing. That was as good as it ever got. A grand total of six hybrids, and even that pitiful grid could not be sustained. Now we are down to one manufacturer and the privateers are bailing out. 

 

Worse, WEC gave Toyota the sweetheart deal of a life time by guaranteeing them a 1/2 second advantage, only it's never been that low. The WEC continues to give the privateers the short straw, and then people wonder why they are dropping out?

 

At what point is it acceptable to have so few cars? Right now Rebellion is the only privateer we can count on to show up, and they haven't even nominated their drivers yet, fueling speculation they are as good as gone too. This leaves us with Ginetta, who have a pretty car, but let's not pretend they are reliable entrants. 

 

You guys can tell me how great it is when the series regains enough credibility that some cars actually show up to race. More likely, because all you want is unsustainable pie in the sky, you will just be left with nothing.

Edited by Dr. Austin, 11 July 2019 - 01:31.

[Dr. Austin]

You have hardly had anything to say about those comments, just reverting back to a simple, dismissive assertion with no back up. 

 

Take one look at the grid and tell me hybrid endurance racing is working. It's not. You have a solitary manufacturer who may only be there to get a cheap Lemans win they weren't getting any other way, and an extremely favorable EOT. That's working? We have a grand total of six cars now with two of those not having drivers and the other two have only made a solitary race in two years.

 

That's working?

 

Do you really want a manufacturers championship with a single manufacturer? Just ask for expensive, unsustainable cars and you'll have exactly what you have now, provided someone shows up to race, that is.

 

I disagree that the hybrid technology alone has caused the problems we see in LMP1, 

 

Because they are so practical and sustainable that we have a whole field of them?

 

You could have 35 prototypes if you just adopted the ELMS rules, but we are better off with two unsustainable $100 million cars?

 

I’m not going to change my mind just because someone shouts at me that the opposite is true and asks me to just be ‘ok’ with it.

 

No one is shouting and if there has been anyone snippy, it wasn't me. Maybe take Viellecht's advise.

 

I'm not shouting or trying to say things you aren't saying or questioning your motivation or any of that.   I'm just saying look at the pitiful grid and then try to tell me how hybrids have brought us a vibrant, healthy series with wall to wall cool, fast cars. It hasn't. It's failed on an epic scale.

Edited by Dr. Austin, 11 July 2019 - 01:32.

[TF110]

Why would you want to cancel lmp1 and have 'spec-O-reca' as the top class? As bad as it is that SMP dropped out, I'd rather watch the 3 lmp1 teams left than a bunch of different colored Oreca p2's. I can't get into the class and that's a reason why I don't watch elms or Aslms.

 

Hybrids aren't the reason things are what they are, it's the VAG twins. Porsche and Audi running f1-level budgets pushed out anyone and everyone that wanted to join, like Nissan. The only reason Toyota stayed on is because they have the F1 facilities at TMG so they don't need to outsource. That saves them money and the powertrain is done at Fuji so it's not a big project with multiple fronts having to come together. Not to mention Toyota is the leader in hybrids worldwide so there's that.

Edited by TF110, 11 July 2019 - 04:13.

[Dr. Austin]

Why would you want to cancel lmp1 and have 'spec-O-reca' as the top class?

 

Because it's a joke that isn't funny. Six cars is a world championship? At least with P2 cars you would have a full field and good racing, neither of which the WEC has provided for at least the last two seasons and it doesn't look like it's going to get any better.

 

In WEC the P2 cars are the stars of the show. They always have a good battle going and they have proven over and over again they deserve their own showcase. 

 

 As bad as it is that SMP dropped out...............

 

Did you read why they are pulling out?

 

SMP dropped out because the FIA has handed Toyota such a huge EOT advantage that it's not a sustainable series for privateers. Dragonspeed has decided to do something sensible and race Indycars, where they can make, instead of bleed money.

 

There goes three cars, right there, and all because the WEC is not looking after the interests of the privateers. WEC is going to end up with nothing, which they did to themselves.

 

Can Rebellion be far behind? They like racing in the states, and we would love to have them as full time entrants. There are also several manufacturers looking for a good team to spearhead their potential entry, so where do you think Rebellion's best opportunity could be? Would it be as no-hopers in a six car race, or potential winners in IMSA, maybe developing a DPI for a manufacturer?

 

One thing is fact: WEC is losing it's prototype teams in rapid succession and they may not even be done yet. 

 

 

I'd rather watch the 3 lmp1 teams left than a bunch of different colored Oreca p2's. 

 

Seriously, would you put credibility in a "world manufacturers championship" that only one manufacture values enough to race in? 

 

 

Hybrids aren't the reason things are what they are, it's the VAG twins. Porsche and Audi running f1-level budgets pushed out anyone and everyone that wanted to join, like Nissan. 

 

 

That absolutely played it's part, but it didn't help they started with complex and obscenely expensive cars. The fact that no privateer even attempted to run one tells you the pricing structure was way out of whack. Again, no one seems to understand the backbone of sportscar racing has and always will be the privateers, and sportscar racing will always suffer tragic series like we have now because the FIA  always seems to work against their best interests while favoring the factories.

[king_crud]

I agree with Dr Austin and made similar points in the other thread about regulations beyond 2020

[Nonesuch]

Why would you want to cancel lmp1 and have 'spec-O-reca' as the top class? As bad as it is that SMP dropped out, I'd rather watch the 3 lmp1 teams left than a bunch of different colored Oreca p2's.

 

Because you can easily make LMP2 lap 3:25 and have it be the top class, while in LMP1 you're stuck with the crumbling remnants of a hybrid-era that was great, but has already ended. We just need the FIA/ACO to accept that.

 

As much as I like LMP2, it does have issues. Performance in LMP2 is too similar. This might not sound so bad, but when you have a long race you inevitably get safety cars, and that screws up the whole race because it's an almost impossible task to make up big gaps when even stint lengths etc. are similar.

 

I don't think the answer is what IMSA did with their LMP2+ aka DPi cars. Before too long that wrecked the LMP2 field and you just get more manufacturer dominance but while giving it to them on the cheap.

[Vielleicht]

Hybrid endurance racing is simply not working. That's all there is to it. You have a single manufacturer show up while the privateers are getting fed up and dropping out. How can anyone say this series is working?

Well, I can agree that LMP1-H has turned into a failure for a number of complicated reasons. What we have right now is pretty awful, and should have been avoided.
 
I also don't think anyone is saying that this series is working, only going as far as saying that hybrids are not the sole cause of WEC's problem.
 

No one wants to race hybrids except Toyota, and no one else is showing up to race except the privateers who were sold pie in the sky that the rules would allow them to be competitive. This has been so consistent that the privateers are simply leaving. No reason to keep racing when the deck is stacked against you. The smart privateers will never again trust the FIA to look after them.

I'm not so sure about that. By the end of 2011, Toyota were set to join with a hybrid alongside Audi and Peugeot who had begun testing one as well. The latter pulled out unexpectedly when parent group PSA were in fininancial trouble generally, unconnected to LMP1-H.
 
You then had Porsche join the fray in 2014, and Nissan the year after. Pause at this point and WEC was at the height of momentum, things were looking good and growing more popular. They had more manufacturers than they had had since about 1999.
 
This is also pretty much where the decline begins. So what happens in 2015 that put the brakes on LMP-H's momentum?
 
Well, Nissan brought a needlesly ambitious front engined concept and couldn't get it to work very well, and pulled out. That probably wiped any other possible entrant's confidence in joining as well. Had Nissan been able to win, perhaps another one or two may have had a go, bringing to the total to 10-12 hybrids.
 
But the big one was the Volkswagen Emissions Scandal. That immedately made the diesel hybrid Audi a dead man walking, and as Porsche is also a part of VAG meant it was also cut.
 
So thse two events, especially the emissions scandal, I think have had a much greater negative impact on LMP1-H than the presence of hybrid technology.
 

How many privateer teams have run a hybrid? They haven't because they don't have the resources or the right people. Too complex? Probably. Too expensive? Probably too expensive too, especially since the smallest estimate I saw for a factory budget was over $100 million. Not hard to see how the privateers never saw any value in that. Like, it's easy to champion an expensive "cause" when it's not your money, isn't it?

Well this is where I agree with others in that there were a number of missed opportunities to help transfer the hybrid technology down to the provateers in a cost effective way. If they had taken a Formula E style approach and said that powertrains (or even the entrie chassis/engine package) from manufacturer entrants must be supplied to privateers for a reasonable capped cost if approached by an independant customer, that would have put a common sense limit on how much the manufactuers would be willing to spend on development. And if one manufacturer outspent the rest and made a better car, the privateers would still allow some kind of fight at the top.

 

That's just one example, but I think a lack of considered cost control measures was another big contributor to LMP1-H's failure. Again, that is a failure of regulatory management not a failure of hybrid technology itself.

 

(long post I think I will break this down)

Edited by Vielleicht, 11 July 2019 - 09:30.

[Vielleicht]

If the manufacturers thought hybrids were such a great idea, why do we only have a single manufacturer in what's supposed to be a manufacturers championship? Where are the rest who have so much faith in this idea?

So, why? Why doesn't any other manufacturer see the value in WEC hybrids? Porsche gave up on it. Audi gave up on it, and with Toyota those six cars were the zenith of hybrid endurance racing. That was as good as it ever got. A grand total of six hybrids, and even that pitiful grid could not be sustained. Now we are down to one manufacturer and the privateers are bailing out.

Some of this point is covered in the other part of my answer, including why Porsche and Audi and Peugeot left for reasons primarily not entriely conected to the Hybrid technology.

Once it was just Toyota left, for any manufacturer who could come in at that point they had to think about two things - 1) the investmenet needed to catch up with an established Toyota effort (see how Nissan went for what they may have thought about that) and 2) that the ACO had immediatly scrapped focussing on the LMP1-H rules after Porsche left and begun working on Hypercars. So the energy went into waiting for that and trying to nfluence the direction of those rules.

I might add that Ford wants a high powered Hybrid sportscar class right now, they just want one that shares a platform with IMSA to justify the expenditiure.

Worse, WEC gave Toyota the sweetheart deal of a life time by guaranteeing them a 1/2 second advantage, only it's never been that low. The WEC continues to give the privateers the short straw, and then people wonder why they are dropping out?

At what point is it acceptable to have so few cars? Right now Rebellion is the only privateer we can count on to show up, and they haven't even nominated their drivers yet, fueling speculation they are as good as gone too. This leaves us with Ginetta, who have a pretty car, but let's not pretend they are reliable entrants.

Well yes, there's a pretty rubbish situation in LMP1 right now. It's been well discussed since it happend how the ACO were put in a pretty impossible position once Porsche left, so I won't got too far into that. Just that trying to balance privateer non-hybrids against a fundementally better-in-almost-every-way factory hybrid was always going to result in a hollow victory one way or the other - either for Toyota for having no real competition or for the privateers in being handed the rules break of the century.

As for why no manufacturer has joined LMP1 to challenge Toyota or provided hybrids for the privateers, well why would you when new hypercar rules are just around the corner? They've all been holding their investment in the hope that Hypercars turned into something they can work with.

You guys can tell me how great it is when the series regains enough credibility that some cars actually show up to race. More likely, because all you want is unsustainable pie in the sky, you will just be left with nothing.

All I can really say is there were, to my mind, other significant factors which have contributed to the demise of LMP1-H, as I have outlined in these posts. Some were clearly the fault of ACO/FIA and some were out of their control.

Hybrids do add a cost. But none that I think was ever unmanageble with enough foresight and planning.

I think all I will end on is that Hybrid WRC, BTCC and even IMSA’s DPi 2.0 are now planned for about 2021/2022. All three are planning on introducing them as a spec-kit at least initially as a cost control/familiarisation step before reassessing what to do after that. So maybe the lessons of LMP1-H's failure are being in fact being learned. The reposnse does not seem to be to abandon hybrids, but to manage their presence carefully.

I daresay that backs up what I, and others, have been saying all along.

Edited by Vielleicht, 11 July 2019 - 14:05.

[HistoryFan]

Update on 2019/2020 season:

 

LMP1

Toyota: Sébastien Buemi, Kazuki Nakajima, Brendon Hartley

Toyota: Kamui Kobayashi, José María López, Mike Conway

Rebellion-Gibson:

Rebellion-Gibson:

Ginetta-AER: Charlie Robertson (?)

Ginetta-AER: Michael Simpson (?)

 

LMP2

Signatech-Alpine Alpine-Gibson: Thomas Laurent, André Negrão, Pierre Ragues

Jackie Chan Oreca-Gibson: Ho-Pin Tung (?), Gabriel Aubry (?)

Racing Team Netherlands Oreca-Gibson: Guido Van der Garde, Nyck de Vries, Frits van Eerd

United Autosports Oreca-Gibson: Paul di Resta, Filipe Albuquerque, Phil Hanson

High Class Oreca-Gibson: Mark Patterson

Jota Oreca-Gibson: Pastor Maldonado, Anthony Davidson, Roberto González

Cool Oreca-Gibson: Nicolas Lapierre, Antonin Borga (?), Alexandre Coigny (?)

Cetillar Dallara-Gibson: Andrea Belicchi, Roberto Lacorte, Giorgio Sernagiotto

 

GTE-Pro

Porsche: Michael Christensen, Kévin Estre

Porsche: Gianmaria Bruni, Richard Lietz

AF Corse Ferrari: James Calado (?), Alessandro Pier Guidi (?)

AF Corse Ferrari: Davide Rigon (?)

Aston Martin: Alexander Lynn (?), Maxime Martin (?)

Aston Martin: Nicki Thiim (?), Marco Sørensen (?)

 

GTE-Am

Project 1 Porsche: Egidio Perfetti (?)

Project 1 Porsche: Patrick Lindsey (?)

Dempsey-Proton Porsche: Matteo Cairoli (?)

Dempsey-Proton Porsche: Matt Campbell (?)

TF Aston Martin: Salih Yoluc (?), Charlie Eastwood (?)

AF Corse Ferrari: Giancarlo Fisichella, Francesco Castellacci, Thomas Flohr

AF Corse Ferrari: Emmanuel Collard, François Perrodo, Nicklas Nielsen

Gulf Porsche: Michael Wainright (?)

Aston Martin: Paul Dalla Lana

MR Ferrari: Eddie Cheever III (?), Olivier Beretta (?), Motoaki Ishikawa (?)

Red River Ferrari: Johnny Mowlem, Bonamy Grimes

 

Part-time-entries expected

Kolles-Gibson LMP1

G-Drive Oreca-Gibson LMP2

 

Eastwood, Borga and Coigny would be new at the 24h Le Mans.

Edited by HistoryFan, 11 July 2019 - 10:45.

[Dr. Austin]

 

I don't think the answer is what IMSA did with their LMP2+ aka DPi cars. Before too long that wrecked the LMP2 field and you just get more manufacturer dominance but while giving it to them on the cheap.

 

If you mean splitting P2 off into it's own pro/am class and making them slower, yeah, that was messed up. Before the P2 car was the baseline of performance, so any P2 car could come here and be competitive. Last year P2 cars won three races on the trot and a privateer came with a handful of points of winning the overall championship.

 

By taking the P2 cars out of the battle for overall wins, the class has dwindled to just two cars and probably won't be back next year. Worse still,you can't buy an Acura or a Mazda,and Cadillac can only supply so many cars. If you are a privateer who wants to get in, what can you do?

 

I said at the time it would be a bad mistake and it's turned out that way. 

[Dr. Austin]

 Just that trying to balance privateer non-hybrids against a fundementally better-in-almost-every-way factory hybrid was always going to result in a hollow victory one way or the other - either for Toyota for having no real competition or for the privateers in being handed the rules break of the century.
 

 

So why even try? It would have made a lot more sense for everyone to run P1 privateer cars. You can actually buy a P1 privateer car and go race, and Toyota could have built their own. Instead we ended up with two vastly different P1 classes and the FIA simply refuses to allow the privateers to even get closer enough to Toyota to offer a smidge of hope. That's why the privateers are leaving, even if only SMP is saying it out loud.

 

IMSA is making the same mistake too by not allowing the privateers a chance. There is a little of that happening with the privater Cadillacs, but they aren't going to supply the entire field. IMSA needs to make Acura and Mazda sell cars too. The field isn't going to grow if cars aren't available.

 

You can easily see how not allowing the privateers to compete is killing both series. In IMSA the P2 class for privateers is all but dead, and in WEC they are leaving rather than continuing to take a drubbing. How bad this will get it hard to say. P2 is probably done after this year in IMSA, and like I say, who knows what Rebellion is going to do and who knows if Ginetta is even going to make it? 

 

 

The way it is now, you can't buy a car capable of winning in a straight fight in either series, and look where that leaves the privateers..........leaving, that is. 

[Dr. Austin]

Update on 2019/2020 season:

 

LMP1

Toyota: Sébastien Buemi, Kazuki Nakajima, Brendon Hartley

Toyota: Kamui Kobayashi, José María López, Mike Conway

Rebellion-Gibson:

Rebellion-Gibson:

Ginetta-AER: Charlie Robertson (?)

Ginetta-AER: Michael Simpson (?)

 

 

 

So as of right now, there are NO LMP1 privateer drivers nominated?  Maybe no gentleman wants to blow all that money in a ride that has no chance. If I've got money to put into a ride, I'm going to spend it in P2 where at least I'de have a chance and still get to drive a fast prototype.

[Vielleicht]

So why even try? It would have made a lot more sense for everyone to run P1 privateer cars. You can actually buy a P1 privateer car and go race, and Toyota could have built their own. Instead we ended up with two vastly different P1 classes and the FIA simply refuses to allow the privateers to even get closer enough to Toyota to offer a smidge of hope. That's why the privateers are leaving, even if only SMP is saying it out loud.

That's a very good question. I think, rightly or wrongly, they felt that it would have been wrong to just kick out Toyota when they had already put forward a lot of investment into their TS050. Toyota would never have raced without the Hybrid, so to bin the LMP1-H and make them all anter the standard LMP1 would be to lose Toyota. Screw over Toyota (who, it must be remebered, have done nothing at all wrong here at any point) and they're not really going to want to come back for what comes next, even as a supplier.

 

I think the way it has played out would have been bearable if we were moving to a new, permanant ruleset immediately after the 'Superseason' i.e. right now. But we have another year of this which is more than a bit farcical I must admit. Remeber Porsche's sudden and inconsiderate exit after saying they were comitting to the stillborn set of 2019 LMP1-H regulations. The ACO had very little time to plan something for 2018-20 and hastily came up with the Superseason plan - so if you ask me Porsche are at least partly to blame for all this.
 

IMSA is making the same mistake too by not allowing the privateers a chance. There is a little of that happening with the privater Cadillacs, but they aren't going to supply the entire field. IMSA needs to make Acura and Mazda sell cars too. The field isn't going to grow if cars aren't available.
 
You can easily see how not allowing the privateers to compete is killing both series. In IMSA the P2 class for privateers is all but dead, and in WEC they are leaving rather than continuing to take a drubbing. How bad this will get it hard to say. P2 is probably done after this year in IMSA, and like I say, who knows what Rebellion is going to do and who knows if Ginetta is even going to make it? 
 
The way it is now, you can't buy a car capable of winning in a straight fight in either series, and look where that leaves the privateers..........leaving, that is.

You can find me in total agreement with the need to protect privateer interests. It is why I continually advocate for the cost capped supply rule as used in Formula E. That just seems like a good idea for any series that relies on privateers like sportscars does or generally just wants to protect itself from the effects of single manufacturer dominance or manufacturer withdrawals from cost escalations.

 

What I don't really get from your answer though is if there are any further thoughts on to what extent the hybriard technology itself is fundementally to blame?

Why would IMSA, WRC, DTM and BTCC all be  plotting the introduction of cost controlled Hybrids if they felt it wasn't worth the effort or even necessary to do so?

 

And actually I would very much ask that, if a main reason of having a hybrid in these series really is as simple as merely signalling that your series is 'green' and 'forward thinking', then actually is that not incredibly important in this day and age? Wether you agree with it or not, it is a reality that sponsors are less willing to put money forward to something seen to be environemntally irresponsible. If we are not allowing our privateers a chance to get in on this new technology, are we not depriving them easy access to adequate funding?

Edited by Vielleicht, 11 July 2019 - 16:40.

[Cornholio]

United Autosports switch to Oreca for WEC because Ligier isn't competitive enough.

 

 

 

The 2017 regs murdered P2.

 

Yeah, it's basically a 2003 IRL situation all over again. A restricted number of constructors for a new rules cycle, often justified by "well we currently don't have that number of different cars competing in an open market anyway". But by restricting the competitors you also restrict the competitiveness. The Riley/Multimatic has all but disappeared (those re-bodied BOPed IMSA "Mazdas" aside) and risks becoming the "Falcon" of this ruleset. Who knows how the likes of BR/SMP, Gibson (as a constructor) or others may have fared had they not been frozen out.

 

What it doesn't explain is specifically why ORECA are so dominant over Ligier when they seemed a bit closer under the pre-2017 P2 regs. Maybe it's as simple as the former doing a better job in the same way F1 teams' fortunes can fluctuate year on year as new models are introduced and work/don't work. Maybe there's something in these regulations that prevent Ligier and others developing to catch up, although I seem to remember the previous P2 regs had some sort of restrictions on development to save costs too. Maybe less restrictive as both ORECA (03 and 05) and Onroak (Pescarolo-based Morgan and the first Ligier-branded coupe) each were able to introduce two models. Although that was over six years, while we're just into year three of this experiment.

 

Either way its a shame to see what was one of the most interesting categories three or four years ago stagnating so much, without even the possibility of engine competition to mix things up a bit. A more interesting P2 category would probably have made me less depressed about P1's decline.