143 replies to this topic

[Clatter]

Minimal rules, that require no judgement calls

I agree, and going off track is one of those rules that should not need any judgement. The only issue is that the people in charge won't enforce the rules correctly.

[redreni]

Rules, rules, rules.  No racing just rules.  Sounds like the court system.  Due process of rules is more important than facts, justice, and truth.  In racing, rules are more important than passing, competition, and drivers', teams', and fans' enjoyment, .  Let's have more rules.  At least all of us can then have more fun acting like lawyers interrupting the rules instead of enjoying what little racing is left.  

 

We're talking about an incident that happened in a chicane. If the FIA took your approach to enforcing the rules, what we'd have seen, for 53 laps, is every single driver in the race straight-lining that chicane. That wouldn't have made it any easier for Ricciardo or anybody else to outbrake people.

 

As a racer, I feel frustrated as well when there's a dull race. I don't see how not having any rules would help, though. Maybe I'm being a bit unfair, though. Perhaps you mean we should have rules, but we shouldn't enforce them all the time? In which case, you're definitely watching the right sport!

[Yamamoto]

Minimal rules, that require no judgement calls

 

Could you give an example?

[FullOppositeLock]

I agree, and going off track is one of those rules that should not need any judgement. The only issue is that the people in charge won't enforce the rules correctly.

I was with you up until the point where you laid the blame at the people in charge. If this is so self evident it should be up to the drivers to show some self awareness and resolve the situation themselves; you make a mistake/break a rule by which you gain an advantage, you drop back behind the competitor you were racing and try again. Based on the last two races however that is obviously too much to ask.

[Clatter]

I was with you up until the point where you laid the blame at the people in charge. If this is so self evident it should be up to the drivers to show some self awareness and resolve the situation themselves; you make a mistake/break a rule by which you gain an advantage, you drop back behind the competitor you were racing and try again. Based on the last two races however that is obviously too much to ask.

 

Teams and drivers will always try to buck the rules, it's upto the people in charge to enforce them. If the track limits were rigidly enforced then drivers would respect them. As it is, it's hit and miss whether they will actually be enforced, and often the penalty is so small that it's worth taking the risk anyway.

[MikeTekRacing]

Minimal rules, that require no judgement calls

do you know of a sport with such an approach?

[FullOppositeLock]

Teams and drivers will always try to buck the rules, it's upto the people in charge to enforce them. If the track limits were rigidly enforced then drivers would respect them. As it is, it's hit and miss whether they will actually be enforced, and often the penalty is so small that it's worth taking the risk anyway.

 

The problem with drivers not taking responsibility themselves, or the powers that be not being able or willing to change race tracks to be self punishing for leaving the track, is that everything becomes subjective and political, which is where we are today. Since no two corners are the same and no two incidents are the same, and since you can only describe so much in rules without ending up with conflicting rules and an even bigger mess there is just no hope of race stewards consistently getting decisions "right" with everybody agreeing with the outcome.

 

The sport has painted itself in a corner with these drivers complaining about every little thing, white lines on a parking lot depicting boundaries of a so called circuit and an ever expanding rule book when all everybody really wants is racing as it was when we had grass and gravel where currently there are tarmac runoffs. The solution couldn't be easier, and it has proven to work for decades before this increased safety upon increased safety upon increased safety madness started and we ended up with these glorified parking lots, rules upon rules and drivers quite openly pushing the boundaries of etiquette and subsequently, instead of holding their hands up, pretending they aren't aware of any wrong doing and they would do it again any time on the odd chance they might get away with it or any penalty decision against them might get reversed on appeal.

[phrank]

Could you give an example?

Last Sunday's Indycar race at Road America. Naturally enforced track limits and freedom to race without Grosjean whining

[Spillage]

The first penalty is even worse than Vettel's last week. How much more space should he have to give him? Norris had over half the circuit to play with. I'm disappointed to see the sport doubling down on this idiocy rather than reflecting on the reaction to Canada and making changes going forwards

The second one is a slam-dunk though, he clearly had all four wheels off the track. That said, stick gravel or grass there and the problem goes away.

[Clatter]

The first penalty is even worse than Vettel's last week. How much more space should he have to give him? Norris had over half the circuit to play with. I'm disappointed to see the sport doubling down on this idiocy rather than reflecting on the reaction to Canada and making changes going forwards

The second one is a slam-dunk though, he clearly had all four wheels off the track. That said, stick gravel or grass there and the problem goes away.

 

Norris was under no obligation to give him any room once DR left the track. It was DR's place to rejoin safely, and if another car is on the piece of track he wants to do that at, then he has to wait, or steer to a different place.

[Clatter]

The problem with drivers not taking responsibility themselves, or the powers that be not being able or willing to change race tracks to be self punishing for leaving the track, is that everything becomes subjective and political, which is where we are today. Since no two corners are the same and no two incidents are the same, and since you can only describe so much in rules without ending up with conflicting rules and an even bigger mess there is just no hope of race stewards consistently getting decisions "right" with everybody agreeing with the outcome.

 

The sport has painted itself in a corner with these drivers complaining about every little thing, white lines on a parking lot depicting boundaries of a so called circuit and an ever expanding rule book when all everybody really wants is racing as it was when we had grass and gravel where currently there are tarmac runoffs. The solution couldn't be easier, and it has proven to work for decades before this increased safety upon increased safety upon increased safety madness started and we ended up with these glorified parking lots, rules upon rules and drivers quite openly pushing the boundaries of etiquette and subsequently, instead of holding their hands up, pretending they aren't aware of any wrong doing and they would do it again any time on the odd chance they might get away with it or any penalty decision against them might get reversed on appeal.

 

I agree that the main problem is the move away from grass and gravel, but that's not likely to change, so the guys in charge have to do the enforcing. They need to stop worrying about whether an advantage was gained or not and hit all offences hard. The drivers will soon learn to stay on track.

[Boxerevo]

We could use grass and the painted one zone, a grass zone and a bigger painted one later.

 

Or not.

Edited by Boxerevo, 25 June 2019 - 20:11.

[MikeTekRacing]

. The solution couldn't be easier, and it has proven to work for decades before this increased safety upon increased safety upon increased safety madness started and we ended up with these glorified parking lots, rules upon rules and drivers quite openly pushing the boundaries of etiquette and subsequently, instead of holding their hands up, pretending they aren't aware of any wrong doing and they would do it again any time on the odd chance they might get away with it or any penalty decision against them might get reversed on appeal.

There's a couple of things to that

1) safety has actually improved dramatically

2) we don't have 100 replays from 50 cameras of all incidents in those races. I am sure the stewards didn't either...

I don't have a problem with drivers trying to get away with shabby moves. Sometimes it's worth to try. 

where you are 100% spot on is that when things don't go their way they moan a lot. That's pissing me off...Wrong doing? Never...just honest mistake, they would never ever do anything wrong...

[MikeTekRacing]

The first penalty is even worse than Vettel's last week. How much more space should he have to give him? Norris had over half the circuit to play with. I'm disappointed to see the sport doubling down on this idiocy rather than reflecting on the reaction to Canada and making changes going forwards

The second one is a slam-dunk though, he clearly had all four wheels off the track. That said, stick gravel or grass there and the problem goes away.

They are very similar actually. Both Vettel and Ricci returned to directly where another car wanted to go. They returned on the racing line. Yeah, Vettel argues he wasn't fully in control (but still kept his foot down on tarmac) and cut across to the racing line, while Ricci argues he wanted to return to the track as soon as possible.

 

Did Norris have more track to run wide? Sure he did. But he was not supposed to be put in a position to run wide just because Ricci decided to return. It's his job when returning to make sure he doesn't use a piece of tarmac that another car is using/planning to use in a few moments. That's unsafe, forces Norris to run wide (opening that corner and running on marbles for no fault of his own), losing time and thus a permanent advantage.

 

Pretty clear penalty....

[FullOppositeLock]

The first penalty is even worse than Vettel's last week. How much more space should he have to give him? Norris had over half the circuit to play with. I'm disappointed to see the sport doubling down on this idiocy rather than reflecting on the reaction to Canada and making changes going forwards

The second one is a slam-dunk though, he clearly had all four wheels off the track. That said, stick gravel or grass there and the problem goes away.

 

What Clatter and Mike Tekracing have said basically, but this bit in bold has me mystified, as in, wasn't it clear he had all four wheels of the track in the chicane as well? I would suggest it was, and from that moment onwards his priority should have changed from continuing to overtake to rejoining safely and in such a way as not to hinder the other drivers who had remained on track. Claiming that Norris had space so it was okay is pretty much the same argument as claiming Kimi had space on his left a few seconds later so that was okay too, isn't it? The point is you are not allowed to go off track and if you somehow do (regardless if intentionally or by honest mistake) the onus is on you to ensure you return safely and give up any advantage you may have gained in the process.

[CharlesWinstone]

With the current rules, interpretation and the by the drivers requested clarity and consistancy of the them (yes Lewis this is the result) there is no discussion possible. If you penalize Vettel in Canada, a decision of which i still think it was a very bad one, you just HAVE to do the same for the attempt of Ric. The move was even far worse than Vettels because it cost Norris 3 places at the end.
The one on Kimi was just daft. Never seen such a move for a long time. Yes there is to much tarmac. But track limits are very clear. The moment he drove over the blue stuff he must have thought wtf i am doing here. Like the stewards thought the same.

Edited by CharlesWinstone, 25 June 2019 - 21:43.

[GT351]

do you know of a sport with such an approach?

Downhill skiing - take any path you want as long as you don’t cut any corners. There are natural track limits like fences or falling off the mountain. Why should this concept be foreign to motorsport?

I agree that under the current rules and enforcement of the rules both Ric moves would draw a penalty (the Kimi one very much amusingly so), but this mindset needs to change. By all means bring back the grass/gravel/kerbs on fast corners to keep them challenging, but both track limits that Ric violated served no real purpose other than to pedantically get in the way of the action imo. Just get through the corners faster than the other guy and play on!

[ClubmanGT]

 the onus is on you to ensure you return safely and give up any advantage you may have gained in the process.

 

That doesn't automatically mean you have to let the car behind through. There's never been a precedent for that (see: the Monaco chicane) which everyone cuts at least once when defending, even though it definitely gives them a clear advantage. It's just not enforced that way. 

[kumo7]

I agree that the main problem is the move away from grass and gravel, but that's not likely to change, so the guys in charge have to do the enforcing. They need to stop worrying about whether an advantage was gained or not and hit all offences hard. The drivers will soon learn to stay on track.

 

I kind of recall that current tarmac run off was the results from severe accident on grass or gravel that those surfaces are not sufficiently slowing down the car nor giving drivers chance to avoid hitting the wall hard. 

Not sure if it was as I noted here, but it was kind of...

So current tarmac run off is better than anything at this moment...

 

I cold imagine to make the run offs, I mean the surface of the area out side of track limit lines, much more abrasive, so that the car will stop and drivers will gain full control of their car.

Obviously it will damage the tires as a consequence, but you re not allowed to leave the track in any case, so I se not point in not doing it...

[pingu666]

am i the only one thats glad dan had a go, but also ok he got the penalty?

 

im actually opposite to most, i want more rules/respect between drivers because thats going to give us the best racing long term. silly as it seems the iracing safety rating system does work.

 

id like to see a option for drop behind other driver as a race control direction, and some ettiquet laid down thats comprehensive, because we have inherited charlie whitings very grey area rulings and stuff.

 

and we need to respect track limits more consistantly (id leave some wiggle room, for stuff like )

 

and we need to respect track limits for sporting, and often safety reasons, as the tracks safety measures are designed for you to start your crash on the track, not somewhere off it at higher speed.

[pingu666]

I kind of recall that current tarmac run off was the results from severe accident on grass or gravel that those surfaces are not sufficiently slowing down the car nor giving drivers chance to avoid hitting the wall hard. 

Not sure if it was as I noted here, but it was kind of...

So current tarmac run off is better than anything at this moment...

 

I cold imagine to make the run offs, I mean the surface of the area out side of track limit lines, much more abrasive, so that the car will stop and drivers will gain full control of their car.

Obviously it will damage the tires as a consequence, but you re not allowed to leave the track in any case, so I se not point in not doing it...

 

i think with downforce cars the grass could give you alot of yaw movement/rotation, and then you bleed massive downforce/risk flying/floating, so you dont slow down as much and out of control on you way to the wall.

[kumo7]

i think with downforce cars the grass could give you alot of yaw movement/rotation, and then you bleed massive downforce/risk flying/floating, so you dont slow down as much and out of control on you way to the wall.

 

Grass indeed is not as flat as tarmac, so it not only makes the car yaw, but pitch, roll and even jumps around, that lessens the contact, and make it fly to the wall. 

No one want that.

[ace346]

 If Ric had part of one tyre on the white line, then both moves are ok? The Kimi move is not off track then? If so then the whole thing rule is crap.. 

Same would go for the Norris overtake. If he was on track by centimeters even, then Norris needs to give him racing room? 

They need to race with walls everywhere like Monaco. Grass  wont stop the attempt (Ric - Aus GP)

[Ragnar668]

am i the only one thats glad dan had a go, but also ok he got the penalty?

 

no

[Kalmake]

 If Ric had part of one tyre on the white line, then both moves are ok? The Kimi move is not off track then? If so then the whole thing rule is crap.. 

Same would go for the Norris overtake. If he was on track by centimeters even, then Norris needs to give him racing room? 

They need to race with walls everywhere like Monaco. Grass  wont stop the attempt (Ric - Aus GP)

Correct.

 

I think Ricciardo saw some space on the right, but then Kimi moved to cover that so he ended up off track completely.

[Kalmake]

Downhill skiing - take any path you want as long as you don’t cut any corners. There are natural track limits like fences or falling off the mountain. Why should this concept be foreign to motorsport?

F1 does take away lap times for corner cutting in qualifying.

 

There aren't mass starts in downhill skiing so it's not a great comparison. When you have to deal with interactions between competitors, it's inevitable to have to make judgement calls.

[Ragnar668]

Correct.

 

I think Ricciardo saw some space on the right, but then Kimi moved to cover that so he ended up off track completely.

 
How much space does he have at the time he steers to the right (at 00:24) exactly ? 

https://www.formula1...Grand_Prix.html

[phrank]

F1 does take away lap times for corner cutting in qualifying.

 

There aren't mass starts in downhill skiing so it's not a great comparison. When you have to deal with interactions between competitors, it's inevitable to have to make judgement calls.

I don't see why it would not work, put a cone or a sensor inside the apex of every corner and tell the drivers they have to go round it, else they get a drive through, the rest of the track is fair to use. And I am all for to let them race, I think drivers are professional enough to sort it out between them. If someone does something what you don't like, be brave enough to tell the media and call him out in de drivers' meeting. 

[Clatter]

 
How much space does he have at the time he steers to the right (at 00:24) exactly ? 

https://www.formula1...Grand_Prix.html

 

Well I see enough space to fit a car into, just that it's outside the track limits.

[Kalmake]

 
How much space does he have at the time he steers to the right (at 00:24) exactly ? 

https://www.formula1...Grand_Prix.html

Ricciardo only needs to touch the white line to make a legal pass, and Kimi isn't on the line yet.

[kumo7]

F1 does take away lap times for corner cutting in qualifying.

 

There aren't mass starts in downhill skiing so it's not a great comparison. When you have to deal with interactions between competitors, it's inevitable to have to make judgement calls.

 

Well you can remove one lap of race lap from the competitor who made offense, for the same offense that a driver loses tie timed lap during Q session, perhaps.

[Kalmake]

Well you can remove one lap of race lap from the competitor who made offense, for the same offense that a driver loses tie timed lap during Q session, perhaps.

Very harsh if you are forced off the track or dodge an accident.

[FullOppositeLock]

That doesn't automatically mean you have to let the car behind through. There's never been a precedent for that (see: the Monaco chicane) which everyone cuts at least once when defending, even though it definitely gives them a clear advantage. It's just not enforced that way.

I remember one instance where exactly what you say is unprecedented happened: Mexico 2016 where Max was defending from Seb and locked up going into turn one while still being in front of Seb on the race track. He cut the corner and rejoined the track at turn 3 (similar to what Lewis had done at the start of the race) and didn't let Seb through. After the race Max was slammed with a 5s penalty demoting him to fifth (and later 4th because Seb was given another post race penalty even later for moving under breaking vs Ric). Ironically after the proceedings in Canada recently, Seb complained like a bitch over the radio that day and even went as far as famously calling out Charlie Whiting for not ordering Max to give up the position even though technically he never passed Max or even was alongside him in the build up to that lock up. Of course Max made a mistake under pressure while defending and to my mind should therefore have given up the position since he kept it only by virtue of leaving the track (and gaining an advantage), so Max' post race penalty was probably warranted under today's rules. So I stand by what it I said: "The point is you are not allowed to go off track and if you somehow do (regardless if intentionally or by honest mistake) the onus is on you to ensure you return safely and give up any advantage you may have gained in the process." Alas the current racing etiquette seems to go completely the other way, i.e. take the advantage at all cost and hope for the best, and if you do get penalised complain about there being too many rules.

Edit: footage of the incident I was referring to: https://youtu.be/BSS-guKXQJY

Edited by FullOppositeLock, 26 June 2019 - 20:38.

[phrank]

(..)Of course Max made a mistake under pressure while defending and to my mind should therefore have given up the position since he kept it only by virtue of leaving the track (and gaining an advantage), (..)

If he had not made a mistake he would not have left the track and stayed in front also, this makes no sense

[MikeTekRacing]

If he had not made a mistake he would not have left the track and stayed in front also, this makes no sense

but he DID make a mistake so that argument is invalid.

If he doesn't make a mistake the whole situation changes and other outcomes appear. But once he made the mistake, you can't have it as if he didn't make it

[Ivanhoe]

You can make mistakes without consequenses though, I think that’s phrank’s point. Enough drivers going off track and rejoining without consequenses because the gap to the trailing car is big enough. The question is where do you draw the line. Maybe they should make a rule that you have to give up a position after leaving the track if the gap to the trailing car in the last preceeding minisector was less than [1] second. That would be a better penalty than a time penalty anyway. In all other cases - asuming the driver rejoins in a savely manner without hindering or impeding the trailing car - no penalty.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 27 June 2019 - 07:24.

[Oho]

Downhill skiing - take any path you want as long as you don’t cut any corners. There are natural track limits like fences or falling off the mountain. Why should this concept be foreign to motorsport?
 

 

Downhill ski path is defined by gates, boundary lines painted on snow are not of regulatory value.

[Yamamoto]

Last Sunday's Indycar race at Road America. Naturally enforced track limits and freedom to race without Grosjean whining

 

I can fully agree with that sentiment. And there are definitely upsides to naturally enforced track limites. But I've done my best to find an Indycar rulebook and it is extensive and by necessity requires judgement calls to put into practice. For example, "Failing to interact with other cars on-track to the satisfaction of INDYCAR". Any motor racing rulebook cannot possibly account for every possible situation. If you have rules, there have to be judgement calls. 

[MikeTekRacing]

You can make mistakes without consequenses though, I think that’s phrank’s point. Enough drivers going off track and rejoining without consequenses because the gap to the trailing car is big enough. The question is where do you draw the line. Maybe they should make a rule that you have to give up a position after leaving the track if the gap to the trailing car in the last preceeding minisector was less than [1] second. That would be a better penalty than a time penalty anyway. In all other cases - asuming the driver rejoins in a savely manner without hindering or impeding the trailing car - no penalty.

Do you think 0.999s vs 1.000s is clearer than the rule used now? (if the other car needs to take evasive action to avoid you - you've rejoined unsafely)

[Ivanhoe]

Vettel disn

Do you think 0.999s vs 1.000s is clearer than the rule used now? (if the other car needs to take evasive action to avoid you - you've rejoined unsafely)

I wrote assuming the driver rejoins in a safely manner without hindering or impeding the trailing car. If you rejoin unsafely, a penalty is warranted anyhow.

It is about going off track, rejoining safely and not clarity about whether there’s a lasting advantage. Verstappen vs Vettel Mexico 2016 is the perfect example, Verstappen did rejoin safely and it was unclear whether he gained a lasting advantage. Solution: just look at how close Vettel was at the last minisector and let the gap decide whether Max should give up the position or not. Whether the gap should be 0.75s, 1s, 1,25s or otherwise is up to debate.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 27 June 2019 - 16:53.

[MikeTekRacing]

Vettel disn
I wrote assuming the driver rejoins in a safely manner without hindering or impeding the trailing car. Verstappen vs Vettel Mexico 2016 is the perfect example, Verstappen did rejoin safely and it was unclear whether he gained a lasting advantage. Solution: just look at how close Vettel was at the last minisector and let the gap decide whether Max should give up the position or not. Whether the gap should 0.75s, 1s, 1,25s or otherwise is up to debate.

good point - Yes, I agree

[Ragnar668]

Frijns posted a nice clip  (if somebody can tell me how to embed twitter movies, thanks)

https://twitter.com/...851839851388929


 

[Stonk]

Damn. How many penalties were handed out there?

[Kalmake]

Crowding each other off the track every corner is not epic it's trashy.