228 replies to this topic

[chrcol]

Did better than the Renault teams then.  Beat others where Renault teams couldn't.  End result is still the same that you can't judge how good the PUs are based on how well Red Bull has done compared to how well either Renault team has done

wrong again, didnt say that either.

[chrcol]

 

Seems like quite a few McLaren fans & team members  are happy for Honda & wish them the best going forward, despite everything. It also seems impossible for many others to enjoy Honda's success without taking hateful swipes at McLaren & its team members.

 

Sad, and telling, esp considering the sources, but not totally unexpected here. Oh well.

 

I, for one, congratulate Honda, McLaren, and STR for all their hard work to improve the Honda PU, leading to this win. It's good for Honda, for Red Bull, and for F1.

 

 

I havent seen anyone take swipes at maclaren, but I have at honda.

[AustinF1]

I havent seen anyone take swipes at maclaren, but I have at honda.

I guess you haven't read the whole thread.

[JimmyTheFox]

Honda got something else cooking, I wonder if it's that fuel reformer combustion thing

Spoiler

schummie

mentioned?
 

In addition to the aero engine research and development department, we bring knowledge in various parts and are fighting F1 with All of Honda, but it will be announced when it is time to talk about it somewhere.

https://www.as-web.jp/f1/496304/2

Too bad Asaki missed Austria, I would have sent him to the podium, according to Google translate he came in and solved their MGU-H troubles with Honda Jet in one go

 

[absinthedude]

Skating on thin ice? Seriously, that is an infantile threat.

 

What am I skating on thin ice for exactly? For not losing my grip on reality in terms of performance the Honda lump provides? It is well behind the Merc and Ferrari lumps, and likely the Renault lump too.

Red Bull is known for building chassis' that perform well and have inherent pace, and still they were finishing half a minute to a minute behind the leaders in the races.

 

Sure they are performing better than McLaren Honda did, because the Red Bull is a better car and because Red Bull are also benefitting from the improvements Honda made during their time with McLaren and last year in the Toro Rosso. A good chassis will flatter a poor engine, but a poor chassis will not be flattered by a good engine. Just look at Williams.

 

 

I am not threatening anyone. I think you (deliberately) misunderstand what I am saying.

 

I am, however, seeing a very biased account of events coming from your quarters.....and hearing the noise of several points conveying themselves above your head.

[Pyrone]

Fun fact: remember what happened resulting in the famous ‘GP2 engine’ message of Alonso on worldwide broadcast on Honda’s own circuit GP of Japan of all possible places and races?

He was being overtaken around the outside by...













Max Verstappen.

Talk about going full circle (him giving them their first win and pointing to the logo)

[baddog]

I guess you haven't read the whole thread.

 

There have been some people being a bit schadenfreudy it is true.. but they are outweighed by the massive thread-dump from Mac, Fenault and Alonso fans shouting down any hint of achievement.

 

Its not even a real win according to the worst cases.

 

/Not you obviously

[Tsarwash]

 

It was the very definition of a fluke. I don't mind giving Honda props when they deserve it, but many here are giving them props when they haven't actually done anything, they merely benefitted from a misfortune.

 

What misfortune specifically were they benefitting from ? Max was clearly the fastest person on Sunday. Anybody ought to be able to see that. 

[ATM]

I think he means the Mercedes cooling error, which made them lift and coast for 300-400 m before the corner.
Basically Merc were just sailing along this Weekend; indeed RBR was faster all things considering (not their fault the competitors calculated wrongly). But Merc don’t usually persist in their errors so it’s hard to think RBR will be able to replicate that soon.

[baddog]

I think he means the Mercedes cooling error, which made them lift and coast for 300-400 m before the corner.
Basically Merc were just sailing along this Weekend; indeed RBR was faster all things considering (not their fault the competitors calculated wrongly). But Merc don’t usually persist in their errors so it’s hard to think RBR will be able to replicate that soon.

 

Well its not an error its a limitation of the merc car no?

[Beri]

Well its not an error its a limitation of the merc car no?

Correct.

[FullOppositeLock]

I think he means the Mercedes cooling error, which made them lift and coast for 300-400 m before the corner.
Basically Merc were just sailing along this Weekend; indeed RBR was faster all things considering (not their fault the competitors calculated wrongly). But Merc don’t usually persist in their errors so it’s hard to think RBR will be able to replicate that soon.

 

According to a Merc engineer:

 

 

In the latest episode of its Pure Pitwall, trackside engineering director Andrew Shovlin reveals the cause of Mercedes Spielberg issue.

"Fundamentally the car doesn't have big enough radiators," he says, "and that's something that we were a bit optimistic with, how much we could get out of the cooling system.

"It's underdelivered to what we hoped we could achieve," he admits, "and it's meant that we are carrying this issue where in the very hot races we will be struggling to keep everything cool enough.

"You can increase the amount of cooling you get out of the car by opening up the bodywork exits and in Austria it was 35 degrees, that actually put us at the upper end of what we could achieve just by opening the car up. So, we were on limit. When you get to that point you are really limited in your options. You can start to use lift and coast, which is where the drivers get towards the end of the straight and they back off the throttle. They then brake a bit later and you have a period where the car is just coasting into the corner, the engine is not doing work and you can lose a fair bit of temperature like that.

"But, as you saw in the race, we were having to ask our drivers to increase that to around 400 metres per lap and that is why they were so compromised on performance.

"You can also turn the engine down a bit, then it will generate less heat, but you've got less power and you are slower on the straights."

"It was definitely a significant limitation in Austria," he admits. "We are working on systems, we were working on them before Austria, to try and improve this problem and we should be in a better position. But, it all really goes down to the fundamental design of the car, where in the push for very, very tight packaging, we have ended up being undercooled overall."

 

 

Mercedes have built an absolute monster of a car, but by their own admission they have sacrificed cooling for aerodynamics/packaging (as they all do to some extent) which cost them here with the high ambient temperatures. I guess you could call this an error, but if they had not made this "error" their car wouldn't have been so strong elsewhere, so that's in my opinion not a correct way of looking at it. It's not like they've made a mistake on the day, or went the wrong way with their development. They just took a design risk and on this one occasion it's come back to bite them a bit, which they may feel is more than compensated by being faster in less hot conditions. If we go down the path of calling this an error every design decision that comes with compromise can be considered an error in certain specific conditions even if it brings more performance over the season.

 

Anyway, Mercedes will probably be working hard to develop a car with bigger air intakes, but that in itself will also compromise their performance on the days where they need to deploy it, so it's too simplistic to look at this as any old mistake that they are unlikely to make again and to assume they will be back to being dominant whatever the circumstances on the day. Their car has strengths and weaknesses, just like every other car and it can be beaten (should have been beaten a few times more already this season).

[shure]

wrong again, didnt say that either.

It's you that's wrong, I'm afraid.  Quite why you persist with it when it's clear what was said is anybody's guess.  Not sure what your point is, other than perhaps being put out that I called you out on another error earlier?

[shure]

What’s Renault doing in the group with Ferrari or Merc? They can’t even get a fourth place...


The Honda was already quite decent in 2017. The McLaren chassis was a draggy joke, yet the team was too arrogant to realize it.

The Honda was plagued by issues in 2017, something even Hasegawa admitted to.

 

https://www.motorspo...-933217/933217/

 

Bit of revisionism going on here methinks

[Stephane]

Best year with McLaren was 16, but it was not really good

[Talisman]

The Honda was plagued by issues in 2017, something even Hasegawa admitted to.

https://www.motorspo...-933217/933217/

Bit of revisionism going on here methinks

Don’t mind him. He’s been going on that the Honda 2017 was a world beater from testing in Barcelona onwards.

[pup]

Best year with McLaren was 16, but it was not really good

But that improvement at least gave them hope for the next season, which is why the initial 2017 engine was such a disappointment to everyone. For Honda it was the wake up call that they finally heeded, reorganizing again and finally bringing in the outside consultants that McLaren had begged them to do since year one. Gilles Simon was dumped, Illien was handed the engine and some journalists reported they knew that Mercedes was finally allowed to lend assistance. Everything slowly started to improve but it was too late by then for McLaren, whose sponsors and shareholders were screaming.

Edited by pup, 08 July 2019 - 12:17.

[SenorSjon]

I think he means the Mercedes cooling error, which made them lift and coast for 300-400 m before the corner.
Basically Merc were just sailing along this Weekend; indeed RBR was faster all things considering (not their fault the competitors calculated wrongly). But Merc don’t usually persist in their errors so it’s hard to think RBR will be able to replicate that soon.

 

400m a lap, not every straight. And perhaps the usual is 200m/lap (20m/corner) so it is hard to find reference for it if it was very serious. They still got 3rd and 5th with it.

 

According to a Merc engineer:

 

 

 

Mercedes have built an absolute monster of a car, but by their own admission they have sacrificed cooling for aerodynamics/packaging (as they all do to some extent) which cost them here with the high ambient temperatures. I guess you could call this an error, but if they had not made this "error" their car wouldn't have been so strong elsewhere, so that's in my opinion not a correct way of looking at it. It's not like they've made a mistake on the day, or went the wrong way with their development. They just took a design risk and on this one occasion it's come back to bite them a bit, which they may feel is more than compensated by being faster in less hot conditions. If we go down the path of calling this an error every design decision that comes with compromise can be considered an error in certain specific conditions even if it brings more performance over the season.

 

Anyway, Mercedes will probably be working hard to develop a car with bigger air intakes, but that in itself will also compromise their performance on the days where they need to deploy it, so it's too simplistic to look at this as any old mistake that they are unlikely to make again and to assume they will be back to being dominant whatever the circumstances on the day. Their car has strengths and weaknesses, just like every other car and it can be beaten (should have been beaten a few times more already this season).

 

In the V8 age (2010-2012) it was an usual sight to have the Merc cut open for cooling. Back then, they had it everywhere ambient was higher than 25 degrees or so. In summer, that was about everywhere. These days, Merc suffer in high altitude tracks (only 3/year in Austria, Mexico and Brazil) to gain on the other 18. Mind you, France was also hot, but they had pace to spare over there due to the track lying much lower.

[metoo]

I mean, Verstappen has finished on average 21.8 seconds behind the leader before Austria, with the gaps in Canada and France being 57.6 and 34.9 respectively, which are the largest gaps so far this season.

 

But go ahead, claim Honda have closed the gap and that this result wasn't a fluke based on the shortcomings of others and ahome race glory run.

ok, this the 2e fluke ? 

and now up to the 3e fluke

[chrcol]

I guess you haven't read the whole thread.

 I have at the time I made the post.

[chrcol]

It's you that's wrong, I'm afraid.  Quite why you persist with it when it's clear what was said is anybody's guess.  Not sure what your point is, other than perhaps being put out that I called you out on another error earlier?

 

I will go on about it until you either give up or accept whats been said to you LOL.

 

For whatever reason you have an issue with honda it seems.  I noticed there actually just seems to be some bitter mclaren fans in this thread, the thread wasnt made to have a dig at mclaren so I dont know why there seems to be a need to try and dampen honda's new success.

 

I will try to spell it out to you what I meant.

 

So I am "not" talking about speed traps.

"not" talking about overall lap times.

 

I am talking about specific moments when there is a need for the car to accelerate with PU power to pull off an overtake or defend from an overtake, this year red bull are better at that then last year.  They can also now do it without their engine blowing up a few corners later.

 

I also see poor ricciardo had another failure in the last race with a renault engine at the back of the car

Edited by chrcol, 29 July 2019 - 14:33.

[Henri Greuter]

3/8/19....

 

And congrats to Honda for their first ever Pole   

 

EDIT:  In the hybrid era  EndEdit

 

. Anotehr great moment for what was the joke of the pitlane for so long.....

 

 

Edit: Apologies for the original typo and thanks to the fellows over here who pointed it out to me.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 03 August 2019 - 14:53.

[ArrowsLivery]

The Honda was plagued by issues in 2017, something even Hasegawa admitted to.

https://www.motorspo...-933217/933217/

Bit of revisionism going on here methinks

I meant late 2017. Early on in the year I agree there was underperformance from the Pu, but certainly not helped by Woking’s lack of compromise.

[OvDrone]

Pole position was the true test. Congratulations to Honda.

 

I was a huge skeptic / denier, well not really on a Alonso level - but not too far from it.

 

Thoroughly deserving. I love stories of hard work paying the f*** back. Cheers

[KWSN - DSM]

3/8/19....

 

And congrats to Honda for their first ever Pole. Anotehr great moment for what was the joke of the pitlane for so long.....

 

First ever Pole?

 

[screamingV16]

3/8/19....

 

And congrats to Honda for their first ever Pole. Anotehr great moment for what was the joke of the pitlane for so long.....

 

Is that sarcasm?

[Henri Greuter]

First ever Pole?

 

 

 

Is that sarcasm?

 

 

 

Too fast in my happyness, no sarcasm.

Post is corrected and edited by now, thanks for pointing it out.

[amardeep]

Now we can fight ! :-)

[shure]

I will go on about it until you either give up or accept whats been said to you LOL.

 

For whatever reason you have an issue with honda it seems.  I noticed there actually just seems to be some bitter mclaren fans in this thread, the thread wasnt made to have a dig at mclaren so I dont know why there seems to be a need to try and dampen honda's new success.

 

I will try to spell it out to you what I meant.

 

So I am "not" talking about speed traps.

"not" talking about overall lap times.

 

I am talking about specific moments when there is a need for the car to accelerate with PU power to pull off an overtake or defend from an overtake, this year red bull are better at that then last year.  They can also now do it without their engine blowing up a few corners later.

 

I also see poor ricciardo had another failure in the last race with a renault engine at the back of the car

What on earth makes you think I have an issue with Honda?

 

I think you may be confusing several posts with this one.  Which one exactly are you referring to?