613 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

@autosport

Max Verstappen is better than Lewis Hamilton on #F1 current form, reckons Red Bull team boss Christian Horner

 

https://t.co/mulW3O17Wa

 

"How do I substantiate that? He's not in the best car. But when you look at the results he's got out of that car since Montreal last year, some of the performances he's put in, he's made virtually zero mistakes in that period.

"It's only natural that there's always the next generation coming.

 

 

Is he right?

 

 

[OO7]

i think things would look a little different if his team mate was even half decent and the Ferrari's weren't shooting themselves in the foot every other weekend.

[Kalmake]

Is he trying to sign an extension, or happy for having just done that?

[Ivanhoe]

Impossible to tell, although it looks like Lewis is not in his best form ever, so I think Max' form is certainly better, still undecided if that makes him 'better' than Lewis at the moment. Therefore voted 3rd option.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 09 July 2019 - 09:50.

[jules153]

Yes, but it's close

[Pits]

Yes, for sure!

[GoldenColt]

I reject the premise of the question or have some other response that cannot be reduced to such vulgar simplifications

[Nemo1965]

I voted the third option (very ironic!). I think that Verstappen currently is as good as Hamilton when he had his third championship under his belt. Which is amazing by itself. How good they are vis-a-vis each other... mmm... How good is Hamilton now? Much better than in 2008-2012. But with Bottas as his teammate I find it hard to establish a baseline. 

[FrontWing]

I voted the third option (very ironic!). I think that Verstappen currently is as good as Hamilton when he had his third championship under his belt. Which is amazing by itself. How good they are vis-a-vis each other... mmm... How good is Hamilton now? Much better than in 2008-2012. But with Bottas as his teammate I find it hard to establish a baseline.

I think Bottas is a better baseline than someone who is about to get kicked out of F1. It looks like Max is doing wonders with the car because Gasly is making the car look worse than it is.

Max has all the tools though, but I'd still question his temperament in the pressure cooker of a championship battle. He just hits too many cars, he's been lucky not to damage his race or someone elses in Monaco and Austria.

Edited by FrontWing, 09 July 2019 - 09:58.

[Reddington]

Hard to quantity. I think overall Lewis is the more all rounded driver. He’s learned how to get the best of himself, prepare for a race, build up a weekend, and all the other things that experience brings.
On track I think they are undoubtedly the best two. I think Max just has the edge on race craft, Lewis just the edge in racing intelligence due to his experience, although Max is a smart racer and catching up fast in that department.

I would love a heads to heads. It would be epic if they could get into a real close WDC fight.

[MikeV1987]

Hard to say, Hamilton is more complete but Verstappen seems like the quickest driver in F1.

[Reddington]

Agreed.
Great to see they have a lot of respect for one another.

[Stephane]

Maybe, maybe not.

[johnwilliamdavies]

According to some, If Max were to retire now, he'd be the greatest of all time. 

 

All he does is drive around on his own most of the time, occasionally he comes across a driver in a faster car on a different tyre strategy and overtakes them. Let's judge him when he's under constant pressure to get pole position in most races, and to deliver those into wins. 

Edited by johnwilliamdavies, 09 July 2019 - 10:05.

[Henri Greuter]

I miss my answer within the poll:


Too much difference between level of performance of their cars and their teams and thus too much unanswered questions left for giving an answer.

[pitlanepalpatine]

You can't really compare the two at the moment since neither is really in a competitive environment. Lewis isn't terribly threatened by anyone currently since his primary opponents keep shooting themselves in the foot. Max isn't anywhere competitive most of the time because he's too far behind Ferrari/Merc too far in front of everyone else. Austria showed that under pressure Max still has an unnecessary tendency to seek contact which can land him in trouble he's just been lucky that these moments are few and far between. 

[pitlanepalpatine]

I miss my answer within the poll:


Too much difference between level of performance of their cars and their teams and thus too much unanswered questions left for giving an answer.

 you're covered by option 3

[PlayboyRacer]

So it begs the question - if Max is so good, so supremely talented and oozing confidence - why isn't he knocking Totos door down so he can take on Hamilton in his own backyard?

World title the ultimate prize - the best man wins.

What's stopping you Max? Or more to the point, what stopped you in the past?

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 09 July 2019 - 10:25.

[JeePee]

Hamilton can have off-weekends and has tracks he's better or worse at.

 

Verstappen is quick everywhere and never in his F1 career has had an off-weekend.

 

Verstappen does make more contact, but on the other hand it's easier not to crash when you start out front in a Merc.

 

I do think this season Verstappen is the better performer. That he has Gasly as a teammate has nothing to do with that. His record streak of beating his teammate started off with Ricciardo.

[ANF]

Better than Lewis Hamilton at running people off the track maybe.

[Marklar]

Voted for no, although I support the third option as well.

While Max is certainly impressive he is ultimately still not proven on the highest level  and has a very weak benchmark this season that certainly flatters him. I'd also like to remind that he was impressive in 2017 and then in early 2018 he was back to his former self, so while in terms of pace he might be on Hamiilton's level (or even above) he certainly cant be considered yet in the same category in terms of consistency, so I certainly wouldnt vote for yes

I miss my answer within the poll:


Too much difference between level of performance of their cars and their teams and thus too much unanswered questions left for giving an answer.

That's the point of the third option.

[kernel]

Impossible to tell, although it looks like Lewis is not in his best form ever, so I think Max' form is certainly better, still undecided if that makes him 'better' than Lewis at the moment. Therefore voted 3rd option.

 

Before Austria, he had won the last 4 GPs on the trot, 2 of which were hard fought with Ferrari and Red Bull, and he thoroughly dominated Bottas in France and Spain...

 

But hey, you're only as good as your last race!

Edited by kernel, 09 July 2019 - 10:21.

[Henri Greuter]

you're covered by option 3

That option is even for my standards phrased too vulgar.....

Edited by Henri Greuter, 09 July 2019 - 10:23.

[ensign14]

Not yet.

[Risil]

Max is certainly paid a lot less! I have absolutely no idea if he's as good as Lewis but I reckon the question about how Max and Lewis would fare in a straight fight has become an urgent one. The behind-the-scenes people need to find a way of making this happen.

[GoldenColt]

Hamilton can have off-weekends and has tracks he's better or worse at.

 

Verstappen is quick everywhere and never in his F1 career has had an off-weekend.

 

Verstappen does make more contact, but on the other hand it's easier not to crash when you start out front in a Merc.

 

I do think this season Verstappen is the better performer. That he has Gasly as a teammate has nothing to do with that. His record streak of beating his teammate started off with Ricciardo.

Without even checking this sounds a bit far-fetched to me.

[johnwilliamdavies]

Verstappen is quick everywhere and never in his F1 career has had an off-weekend.

 

 

Greatest of all time.

[klyster]

His record streak of beating his teammate started off with Ricciardo.

2016, 2017? Record?

 

He beat Sainz Jr in 2015 though...

Edited by klyster, 09 July 2019 - 10:33.

[Marklar]

Without even checking this sounds a bit far-fetched to me.

Considering that being 1-2 tenths off his team mates paces is considered to be a off-weekend for Hamilton I beg to differ as well   

That aside I remember young Hamilton also being always quick but prone to contact. Probably you need to reduce a little of the former to also reduce a bit of the latter....

[A3]

i think things would look a little different if his team mate was even half decent and the Ferrari's weren't shooting themselves in the foot every other weekend.

But he’s not talking about results, he’s talking about how Max performed himself. And I think he already had the better hand over Ricciardo for a long time last year.

[Jovanotti]

Horner's agenda is obvious, and the Verstappen fans do like to get ahead of themselves lately, aren't they? Let's not forget Gasly has been pathetic this season, which greatly skews perception, while Lewis when he entered faced Alonso and Button during his first years and showed his class.
I think Max' talent is in the same ballpark as Lewis, but he's not the complete package yet. He has all the promise, but not much more at the moment. He's got 1 more victory to his name than Lewis has titles ffs.

Edited by Jovanotti, 09 July 2019 - 10:50.

[KevD]

So it begs the question - if Max is so good, so supremely talented and oozing confidence - why isn't he knocking Totos door down so he can take on Hamilton in his own backyard?

World title the ultimate prize - the best man wins.

What's stopping you Max? Or more to the point, what stopped you in the past?

 

How do you know that that he isn't knocking Toto's door down? Another question: why is Lewis never leaving the comfort of a championship winning car? 

[PlayboyRacer]

How do you know that that he isn't knocking Toto's door down? Another question: why is Lewis never leaving the comfort of a championship winning car?

How long has Max been around now? 5 seasons? I'd be more inclined to believe Toto has knocked on Max's door in the last 2 or 3 years.

Oh and Lewis is the current king, he doesn't need to leave. They gotta go onto his turf! Lol

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 09 July 2019 - 10:48.

[JeePee]

Without even checking this sounds a bit far-fetched to me.

I'm talking purely about pace.

For instance, he wrecked a lot of Monaco weekends, but he was always quick there. He's never trailing his teammate with 0,3 seconds because his setup didn't click. But please DO check if there was a weekend where his pace was just... mehh.

 

2016, 2017? Record?

 

He beat Sainz Jr in 2015 though...

16? consecutive races now where he finished in front of his teammate. Alonso is 2nd on that list with 12.

[A3]

Verstappen is quick everywhere and never in his F1 career has had an off-weekend.

.

Monaco says hi.

Verstappen was certainly not at his best in Spa 2016 for instance. He definitely had off weekends, but he is certainly learning.
I don’t see him repeat a high risk move like spa 2016 turn one this year.

Edited by A3, 09 July 2019 - 10:47.

[balage06]

I'm a long time Hamilton supporter, but I'm fairly convinced that Max is the most talented driver on the grid currently. I think he could potentially beat either Hamilton or Vettel in the same car IF he can handle the pressure that comes with the title battle.

[Clatter]

So it begs the question - if Max is so good, so supremely talented and oozing confidence - why isn't he knocking Totos door down so he can take on Hamilton in his own backyard?

World title the ultimate prize - the best man wins.

What's stopping you Max? Or more to the point, what stopped you in the past?

 

Toto won't hire anyone who might upset the applecart. He had enough trouble trying to control LH and NR, and doubt a repeat of that by having 2 top drivers together again.

[Roadhouse]

Voted #3, it's hard to say who's better. If I had to guess I'd say Lewis, because he's more rounded up and incredibly 'clean' in his dirtiness.  He also has the tools right now to stay out of trouble though.

Max can be a hothead (although he seems far cooler lately), Lewis however tends to forget how good he is when things don't go his way during a race.

 

 

Better than Lewis Hamilton at running people off the track maybe.

 

Lewis certainly has more finesse in the running people of the track department.

[muramasa]

Dont see the point, TP talking up its star driver is nothing new at all, Ham, Max, Seb, Alo are all better than the others and there's nothing wrong about that.

[GoldenColt]

I'm talking purely about pace.

For instance, he wrecked a lot of Monaco weekends, but he was always quick there. He's never trailing his teammate with 0,3 seconds because his setup didn't click. But please DO check if there was a weekend where his pace was just... mehh.

 

16? consecutive races now where he finished in front of his teammate. Alonso is 2nd on that list with 12.

But if he'd trail his teammate by 0,1 or 0,2 seconds in every session that wouldn't count as a meh weekend? I find your definition of a meh-weekend to be too simplistic. Then again, it's reflective of how this thread was set up in the first place. General statements using terms which are difficult to define let alone to measure made by highly subjective people (like Max's team principal) never make for a substantial debate anyway. I'll leave it at that.

Edited by GoldenColt, 09 July 2019 - 10:57.

[Sintra]

Horner is highlighting Max’s performance since Canada last year. It does look indeed like in this time-frame Max has optimized his results more often than Lewis arguably.

[klyster]

 

 

16? consecutive races now where he finished in front of his teammate. Alonso is 2nd on that list with 12.

 

 

Yeah okay, gotcha, consecutive races, but Gasly?

C'mon, that's scraping the barrel, Max is better than ... doesn't need a metric like that, if anything that cheapens his achievements.

[PlayboyRacer]

Dont see the point, TP talking up its star driver is nothing new at all, Ham, Max, Seb, Alo are all better than the others and there's nothing wrong about that.

I think you can add Leclerc and Ricciardo into that group too.

[TomNokoe]

It's a disgrace this is even being asked.

 

Lewis Hamilton has 5 world championships. Max? Zero

Lewis Hamilton has 86 pole positions. Max? Zero.
Lewis Hamilton has 79 wins. Max? Six.

 

Max Verstappen has raced in 90 Grand Prix and has not once experienced anything like the pressure that goes with mounting a championship challenge.

 

Just because he is currently driving very well does not in any way mean he is better than Lewis. Again, it's such an unbelievable statement. Hamilton was winning races, championships, securing poles between 2007-13 and was never afforded such luxurious media praise - in fact it was often the opposite!

Verstappen is driving the third fastest car, in a bubble well outside of Mercedes and Ferrari, but well ahead of the midfield. His car is almost always better during the race than in qualifying, which will always shine a light on his Sunday performances. He has absolutely 100% team support with a lapdog teammate. Nobody else in the top 3 teams holds such a luxury. Remind you of another paddock darling? (Alonso, circa 2011-14). Many F1 fans are pre-disposed to adore the drivers who break the established order, and then praise them again and again to an attempt to heighten their own ego because they don't support a driver fighting for the championship. You do know that Bellof was catching Senna in Monaco 1984? ... Best driver ever? Tazio Nuvolari, obviously! , etc. etc. etc. How noble of you to stray from the established opinion. Add in the long-standing contempt from the majority of F1 folk for absolutely anything Hamilton does ... same old, same old.
 

Max is a very good driver and a solid prospect. That is all. But we musn't forget his tendency to push the limits of clean racing far beyond the rulebook. Hamilton is the absolute epitome of clean racer and has been for 10 years.

Edited by TomNokoe, 09 July 2019 - 11:16.

[Dratini]

But he’s not talking about results, he’s talking about how Max performed himself. And I think he already had the better hand over Ricciardo for a long time last year.

While Max' performances this season have been superb, it has to be said that Gasly's poor efforts comparatively make Max shine brighter. A more competent driver in that second seat might reveal that Max is simply performing at the level that the car is capable of. For example, while Max was incredible in Austria, his performance is talked up even moreso by the fact he lapped his teammate. I'd say that's more a product of a rubbish performance by Gasly than a good one from the former.

Edited by Dratini, 09 July 2019 - 11:14.

[Dratini]

It's a disgrace this is even being asked.

 

Lewis Hamilton has 5 world championships. Max? Zero

Lewis Hamilton has 86 pole positions. Max? Zero.
Lewis Hamilton has 79 wins. Max? Six.

 

Max Verstappen has raced in 90 Grand Prix and has not once experienced anything like the pressure that goes with mounting a championship challenge.

 

Just because he is currently driving very well does not in any way mean he is better than Lewis. Again, it's such an unbelievable statement. Hamilton was winning races, championships, securing poles between 2007-13 and was never afforded such luxurious media praise - in fact it was often the opposite!

Verstappen is driving the third fastest car, in a bubble well outside of Mercedes and Ferrari, but well ahead of the midfield. His car is almost always better during the race than in qualifying, which will always shine a light on his Sunday performances. He has absolutely 100% team support with a lapdog teammate. Nobody else in the top 3 teams holds such a luxury. Remind you of another paddock darling? (Alonso, circa 2011-14). F1 fans are pre-disposed to adore the drivers who break the established order, and then praise them again and again.
 

Max is a very good driver and a solid prospect. That is all. But we musn't forget his tendency to push the limits of clean racing far beyond the rulebook. Hamilton is the absolute epitome of clean racer and has been for 10 years.

Comparing wins, poles and championships is a rubbish way to make your argument. A driver can be better without having achieved all of those accolades, particularly in the climate that exists within F1.

[steferrari]

86 poles to 0.

 

I know that it's not completely fair to say this because Lewis had a better car most of the time, but it's also unfair (maybe even unrespectful) to say that Max is better than him.

He's surely an exceptional talent and I think that him and Charles are the future of F1, but it's too early to say that he's already the best of them all.

[Dratini]

86 poles to 0.

 

I know that it's not completely fair to say this because Lewis had a better car most of the time, but it's also unfair (maybe even unrespectful) to say that Max is better than him.

He's surely an exceptional talent and I think that him and Charles are the future of F1, but it's too early to say that he's already the best of them all.

I believe there are better ways to discredit Horner's comments than to say "he hasn't matched Lewis' accolades despite seldom having a car capable of doing so".

[JeePee]

But if he'd trail his teammate by 0,1 or 0,2 seconds in every session that wouldn't count as a meh weekend? I find your definition of a meh-weekend to be too simplistic.

Yeah, maybe. But which weekend did he trail his teammate in every session?

 

Yeah okay, gotcha, consecutive races, but Gasly?

C'mon, that's scraping the barrel, Max is better than ... doesn't need a metric like that, if anything that cheapens his achievements.

Gasly, and Ricciardo. Still, 16 is a lot for someone people still call 'crashstappen'. 16 means no flat tyres, broken front wings, broken suspensions or big crashes on a Sunday.

[PlayboyRacer]

The pole stat is interesting though, isn't it? During Verstappens time, has Red Bull taken any pole positions?

Well yes... they have.