1488 replies to this topic

[PlayboyRacer]

Good thing for him is Ferrari is not going to win a title in a long long time,

That's ironic given, in 2018, it was arguably Seb melting down that cost Ferrari a very recent World Championship. Lol

[Lights]

Funnily enough I was thinking about this yesterday. The post race interviews seemed to be focusing on Ferrari’s strategy during the race with Vettel seemingly questioning their wisdom or lack there of. Yet there was no mention of his first lap spin, which ultimately contributed in some way to his poor result. If Vettel is allowed to simply brush off the spin, is he being honest to himself? Is F1 being honest to him? Does he have a problem, a medical problem that is causing these repetitive mistakes? Is anyone going to call him out on it and suggest a solution?

Dan called his own spin a “Seb spin.” So the drivers are aware, but is anything being done to figure it out?

Over the years Grosjean has had help, Max has had help, Lewis has had help and Massa has had help. If Seb is simply allowed to sweep these issues under the carpet so to speak, he’ll never learn nor will we be able to determine its effect on his overall performances of late. That said, perhaps Ferrari know more than they’re letting on.

 

Great post and very on topic. It also led me to think a bit.

 

That radio message "you know you've messed up"  to his team and the post-race focus on the strategy is classic Seb.

Not because he tends to publicly blame his team, but because it deflects from his own mistake that really ruined his race from the start. Seb is the master of deflection.

 

Turkey 2010, *Mark was the crazy one*. Red Bull protected Seb, so Seb's deflection got validated. To him, at least.

Hungary 2010, "How the **** is Mark in front now?" Vettel made a mistake, but in his head he can't even process that while he's questioning his team.

China 2016, *Kvyat was the torpedo*. Seb kept complaining about it. On the radio 3 times during the race, then directly to Kvyat before the podium, even complaining about Kvyat to Horner in the paddock. Why? He didn't want to be seen as the cause for the Ferrari's making contact. Despite unfair at the time, "The Torpedo" nickname stuck. Deflected.

Baku 2017, "when did I do dangerous driving". Seb accidentally hit Hamilton under the SC. Then he hit Hamilton on purpose under the SC. The amount of cringe in his post-race interviews was unbearable. Deflect deflect deflect. Embarrassing.

Canada 2019, *the stewards were wrong*. Let's throw a huge tantrum. Let's disturb the post-race process. Let's swap signs around. It was the stewards that took it away from him. What mistake? Nobody spoke about his mistake anymore, everyone was talking about the stewards and Seb's post-race entertainment. Deflected.

Now, "you know you've messed up". The only way he can deal with his spin is by blaming his team for something else that doesn't go right. Successfully deflected, once again.

 

Vettel was too successful for his own good. I bet he hardly reflected on the mistakes he made in his title years because in the end, he won. Which was great for him back then, but it has bitten him ever since. He has weaknesses that he never ironed out, and a lot of them are related to his mental state. So I agree Vettel needs help. He probably needed help 10 years ago. But he never got it because he was blinded by his own success and the deflections that he kept making which were supported by his bubble.

 

Watching F1 for 20 years I have not come across anyone that has a stronger sense of entitlement than Sebastian Vettel. Hungary 2011, "But I want to win". Every driver wants to win, to an extent that's normal and fine. But the way he said this so directly like a spoiled child struck me the wrong way. Malaysia 2013, "get him out of the way", utterly disrespectful way to talk about his teammate, huge sense of entitlement. Russia 2016, in all seriousness, this was of course Kvyat's fault. But Seb's reaction? It's like he got crashed out every race. But this was like his first time, ever. Oh the injustice done on him... dude, this is racing. It happens. Including to your title rivals in the past. 

 

I see many people write stuff like 'I feel so bad for Seb', but frankly I cannot have much sympathy for him. First of all, given that he's not one of the absolute best drivers of his generation, he's had some absolutely amazing machinery to his disposal. And Webber and Raikkonen getting the short side of the stick was never an issue for him or his fans. Vettel apparently deserved everything he got back then because he was the one in front and that's what matters. Now the tables are turned and the excuses are flowing in every weekend. Loss of practice time, sub-optimal strategies... Sure it sucks, but that's how it often is for lots of drivers, and how it often was for drivers that Vettel beat. Vettel is too used to being the favorite son and for once he's experiencing the other side of it where it doesn't all revolve around him. Which has happened to most drivers at one stage or another, but for Vettel this is of course the end of the world and some fans act like he deserves pity and a move to another great car alongside a subordinate teammate so he can shine once more. But you can't be fortunate your whole career. When things don't go well, it's about how you deal with that. And Vettel's flaws are sticking out like never before, and he has completely collapsed with it.

 

And this has happened once before, of course. But then he successfully escaped, crucially before he got sucked too deep into it. Thanks to Alonso's faith in Ferrari ending, Vettel found a safe haven. A recovering Ferrari alongside Kimi. It masked his problems for awhile but they hadn't disappeared, and when the heat was turned on they became visible again. Leclerc has since made it clear that there was more to win in those seasons. Now Seb left the escape too late but to be honest the writing was on the wall already. It was unrealistic to think that a new contract could be signed, because his top position in Ferrari was already lost and that's the only way he seems to be able to perform. And for that, help in a much earlier phase would have probably aided him now. But to receive help you first need to admit there is a problem and this is why I think Vettel never sought it.

Edited by Lights, 10 August 2020 - 11:03.

[kosmos]

That's ironic given, in 2018, it was arguably Seb melting down that cost Ferrari a very recent World Championship. Lol

 

 

It wasn't a guarantee title though, it was in the air but yeah he definitely had the chance to reach the last race with chances.

[Raest]

I don't recall Ferrari blaming Alonso.

 

I think they would have been happy to keep him.

Not for the results themselves but I think "toxic" was a word used to justify not renewing his contract

Edited by Raest, 10 August 2020 - 09:50.

[as65p]

It wasn't a guarantee title though, it was in the air but yeah he definitely had the chance to reach the last race with chances.

 

This. He could have done an Alonso '10 or '12 and arrive at the last race with a chance to become champion. That was definitely possible, and in that last race it's practically the throw of a dice who wins in the end (as nobody should know better than Seb).

 

Yet he never got that far but blew it much earlier in the season.

 

And that's without taking into account (because really impossible to quantify), how much a closer points situation right through the end might have affected Hamiltons performance / error rate.

[klyster]

 

Great post and very on topic. It also led me to think a bit.

 

That radio message "you know you've messed up"  to his team

 

..

..

..

.

 

.escaped, crucially before he got sucked too deep into it. Thanks to Alonso's faith in Ferrari ending, Vettel found a safe haven. A recovering Ferrari alongside Kimi. It masked his problems for awhile but they hadn't disappeared, and when the heat was turned on they became visible again. Leclerc has since made it clear that there was more to win in those seasons. Now Seb left the escape too late but to be honest the writing was on the wall already. It was unrealistic to think that a new contract could be signed, because his top position in Ferrari was already lost and that's the only way he seems to be able to perform. And for that, help in a much earlier phase would have probably aided him now. But to receive help you first need to admit there is a problem and this is why I think Vettel never sought it.

 

 

As much as I like the lighter, happy side of Sebastian Vettel, I agree with your prognosis.

Edited by klyster, 10 August 2020 - 09:53.

[as65p]

Not for the results themselves but I think "toxic" was a word used to justify not renewing his contract

 

Used on internet forums, certainly. By Ferrari, I don't think so.

[Massa_f1]

I still think Seb is better off calling it a day at the end of this season. He is not the same person that won 4x championships at Red Bull. From the moment F1 went all hybrid his mood and demenor lowered in my opinion.

 

He seemed a lot more like his pre hybrid self in 2015, and the move to Ferrari looked a good one and he seemed very happy.

That soon changed again the following year, and it just got worse as the years went on even when presented with much better Ferrari cars than in 2015.

Edited by Massa_f1, 10 August 2020 - 09:59.

[DeKnyff]

Not for the results themselves but I think "toxic" was a word used to justify not renewing his contract

Which, in hindsight and compared to the later Vettel period, seems now completely out of place. I'm sure that Ferrari, deep inside them, must regret having divorced from Alonso. What came later was worse, even if Fernando was sometimes a complicated guy.

 

And I don't believe that Ferrari ever said or even thought that "toxic" thing. More like story made up by Alonso haters.

[Marklar]

Great post and very on topic. It also led me to think a bit.

That radio message "you know you've messed up" to his team and the post-race focus on the strategy is classic Seb.
Not because he tends to publicly blame his team, but because it deflects from his own mistake that really ruined his race from the start. Seb is the master of deflection.

Turkey 2010, *Mark was the crazy one*. Red Bull protected Seb, so Seb's deflection got validated. To him, at least.
Hungary 2010, "How the **** is Mark in front now?" Vettel made a mistake, but in his head he can't even process that while he's blaming his team.
China 2016, *Kvyat was the torpedo*. Seb kept complaining about it. On the radio 3 times during the race, then directly to Kvyat before the podium, even complaining about Kvyat to Horner in the paddock. Why? He didn't want to be seen as the cause for the Ferrari's making contact. Despite unfair at the time, "The Torpedo" nickname stuck. Deflected.
Baku 2017, "when did I do dangerous driving". Seb accidentally hit Hamilton under the SC. Then he hit Hamilton on purpose under the SC. The amount of cringe in his post-race interviews was unbearable. Deflect deflect deflect. Embarrassing.
Canada 2019, *the stewards were wrong*. Let's throw a huge tantrum. Let's disturb the post-race process. Let's swap signs around. It was the stewards that took it away from him. What mistake? Nobody spoke about his mistake anymore, everyone was talking about the stewards and Seb's post-race entertainment. Deflected.
Now, "you know you've messed up". The only way he can deal with his spin is by blaming his team for something else that doesn't go right. Successfully deflected, once again.

Vettel was too successful for his own good. I bet he hardly reflected on the mistakes he made in his title years because in the end, he won. Which was great for him back then, but it has bitten him ever since. He has weaknesses that he never ironed out, and a lot of them are related to his mental state. So I agree Vettel needs help. He probably needed help 10 years ago. But he never got it because he was blinded by his own success and the deflections that he kept making which were supported by his bubble.

Watching F1 for 20 years I have not come across anyone that has a stronger sense of entitlement than Sebastian Vettel. Hungary 2011, "But I want to win". Every driver wants to win, to an extent that's normal and fine. But the way he said this so directly like a spoiled child struck me the wrong way. Malaysia 2013, "get him out of the way", utterly disrespectful way to talk about his teammate, huge sense of entitlement. Russia 2016, in all seriousness, this was of course Kvyat's fault. But Seb's reaction? It's like he got crashed out every race. But this was like his first time, ever. Oh the injustice done on him... dude, this is racing. It happens. Including to your title rivals in the past.

I see many people write stuff like 'I feel so bad for Seb', but frankly I cannot have much sympathy for him. First of all, given that he's not one of the absolute best drivers of his generation, he's had some absolutely amazing machinery to his disposal. And Webber and Raikkonen getting the short side of the stick was never an issue for him or his fans. Vettel apparently deserved everything he got back then because he was the one in front and that's what matters. Now the tables are turned and the excuses are flowing in every weekend. Loss of practice time, sub-optimal strategies... Sure it sucks, but that's how it often is for lots of drivers, and how it often was for drivers that Vettel beat. Vettel is too used to being the favorite son and for once he's experiencing the other side of it where it doesn't all revolve around him. Which has happened to most drivers at one stage or another, but for Vettel this is of course the end of the world and some fans act like he deserves pity and a move to another great car alongside a subordinate teammate so he he can shine once more. But you can't be fortunate your whole career. When things don't go well, it's about how you deal with that. And Vettel's flaws are sticking out like never before, and he has completely collapsed with it.

And this has happened once before, of course. But then he successfully escaped, crucially before he got sucked too deep into it. Thanks to Alonso's faith in Ferrari ending, Vettel found a safe haven. A recovering Ferrari alongside Kimi. It masked his problems for awhile but they hadn't disappeared, and when the heat was turned on they became visible again. Leclerc has since made it clear that there was more to win in those seasons. Now Seb left the escape too late but to be honest the writing was on the wall already. It was unrealistic to think that a new contract could be signed, because his top position in Ferrari was already lost and that's the only way he seems to be able to perform. And for that, help in a much earlier phase would have probably aided him now. But to receive help you first need to admit there is a problem and this is why I think Vettel never sought it.

100 % agreed.

As for the "help" bit. I think for that it's way too late. The early success, especially as Red Bull's golden boy, was already no help, as he had all the success in a phase where drivers build their character usually, but the early Ferrari days following what he certainly filed up as a off-season at Red Bull rather than a genuine problem probably prevented any chance for him to reflect.

But there is just so much you can do even then. While we certainly dont see his true potential right now to some extent he probably is also maybe just limited in some of his skillset. He always had issues in high speed corners, he always had issues with a unstable rear, he always was clumsy wheel to wheel. Sometimes more or less depending on the car he had, but it was always there. And when you cant get that fixed in 14 years maybe you just are not this good.

[Raest]

Which, in hindsight and compared to the later Vettel period, seems now completely out of place. I'm sure that Ferrari, deep inside them, must regret having divorced from Alonso. What came later was worse, even if Fernando was sometimes a complicated guy.

 

And I don't believe that Ferrari ever said or even thought that "toxic" thing. More like story made up by Alonso haters.

As far as I remember the word originated from italian media through "unnamed sources within the team" then found its way to the internet forums and stuck. But I may be wrong my memory isn't what once was.

Edited by Raest, 10 August 2020 - 10:27.

[PlayboyRacer]

100 % agreed.

As for the "help" bit. I think for that it's way too late. The early success, especially as Red Bull's golden boy, was already no help, as he had all the success in a phase where drivers build their character usually, but the early Ferrari days following what he certainly filed up as a off-season at Red Bull rather than a genuine problem probably prevented any chance for him to reflect.

But there is just so much you can do even then. While we certainly dont see his true potential right now to some extent he probably is also maybe just limited in some of his skillset. He always had issues in high speed corners, he always had issues with a unstable rear, he always was clumsy wheel to wheel. Sometimes more or less depending on the car he had, but it was always there. And when you cant get that fixed in 14 years maybe you just are not this good.

Totally agree with this and that post by Lights was perfect. I don't think much more needs to be added.

For myself the real red flag moment, in terms of Vettels mental state, was when he lost it at Charlie Whiting on the radio in 2016. It showed a deep character flaw that's horribly exposed under real pressure.

Nothing that has happened since then is remotely surprising.

[messy]

Whatever happens with Seb he needs to lift himself out of the mire because otherwise there’s no point continuing going at all. Next season or this. He’s slow, jittery and being utterly shown up by Leclerc and it’s becoming a Damon Hill ‘99 style embarrassment. It’s a real shame.

[GoldenColt]

Here's my take: the level of competition has increased enormously in these last few years. Lewis has found another gear from 2017 onwards, Max Verstappen was promoted to RB in 2016 and is improving all the time as a driver, being a lot more measured on track and less prone to mistakes in addition to his already blistering pace. Then there's Charles Leclerc, who after a bit of a messy start into the season is finally coming into his own, beating Vettel on a regular basis, establishing himself as the #1 driver - at least performance-wise. Daniel Ricciardo is doing a stellar job at Renault aswell, as is Carlos Sainz at McLaren. Not to mention the rookies like Norris, Albon and Russell, who all look like potential future race winners and maybe more. I'd argue that even without Alonso this year's grid is one of the strongest in the history of the sport, if not the strongest of all times. And it appears to me as if Sebastian simply isn't able to make that extra step to keep up with these guys. The drivers at the very top have all moved into a higher gear in recent years, while Vettel hasn't been able to. Not to mention that both Lewis and Max have gotten into his head, as evidenced by some of the comical mistakes we saw him make when racing these two.

 

Do I think his career is over? It's hard to say no given his performances in these last 1,5 years. He has always been prone to making stupid mistakes and as another user alluded to already, two of his four WDC could have gone the other way because of those. What had saved him in the past was a car that allowed him to get away with it and some unbelievable luck when it mattered the most (Brazil 2012, how his car survived such a hefty whack by Bruno Senna's Williams I still don't quite understand). But it seems that in addition to the competition around him finding another level, his luck has run out aswell.

 

Now, there are areas where he can improve as a person: admitting his own mistakes - not only the obvious ones - would be a first step. Being calmer in certain high pressure situations would be another. Accepting the fact that the car is not competitive enough to win at the moment and making the most out of it, same way Alonso has between 2011 and 2014. But what about his driving? Apparently, he still suffers from a loose back end. F1 has moved on from the era of a planted rear end, courtesy of EBD, but it appears Vettel hasn't. Now I do understand that every driver has his own preferences when it comes to car balance, but some are able to cope with changes to driving characteristics better than others. Vettel certainly seems to struggle with it more and at the age of 32, I doubt that'll change. This weakness doesn't only hurt himself, but also the team which finds itself in the precarious situation of having to improve the car while trying to avoid changing the balance in a way that would hurt their #1 driver. From what I've read in the last couple of days, this is exactly what has just happened: Ferrari found a way to cure their issue of understeer, but it has unsettled the rear end, and Charles is coping better with that.

 

It'll be interesting to see how this story continues in the coming weeks, but right now it's looking dire for Sebastian. Despite his obvious #1 status his young and inexperienced teammate is only 3 points behind in the standings. The WDC is already gone for another year which makes 2018 look like a unique opportunity for Vettel to win that first title with Ferrari. An opportunity that might never present itself again for him. He continues to make amateurish mistakes, he's showing a mental weakness that should be concerning for a team that is reportedly paying him 40M per year and there's no sign of improvement on the horizon. Sure, people can bring up the amount of WDCs he has won many years ago, but if that number from the past is the only thing you have to defend his reputation as a top driver, you're basically admitting that your entire admiration for Vettel is based on nostalgia. F1 has moved on since 2013. It appears as if some of you have not.

One year later, I still wouldn't change a word.

[Hellenic tifosi]

Which, in hindsight and compared to the later Vettel period, seems now completely out of place. I'm sure that Ferrari, deep inside them, must regret having divorced from Alonso. What came later was worse, even if Fernando was sometimes a complicated guy.

 

And I don't believe that Ferrari ever said or even thought that "toxic" thing. More like story made up by Alonso haters.

 

Fully agreed - I think a lot of heads have been banging against Maranello walls for Mattiaci's decision to part with Alonso....

[Zilbert]

Fully agreed - I think a lot of heads have been banging against Maranello walls for Mattiaci's decision to part with Alonso....

I don't think it was Mattiaci's decision, he was brought in to do the "dirty" job, in Ferrari driver decisions come from above TP position, at least that is my impression.

[Spillage]

It's all psychological, I think. He isn't the first man to be mentally ruined by Ferrari and he won't be the last either. His performances at Red Bull were very strong, there's no denying it. His 2013 season was one of the most immaculate I've ever seen. But that Vettel is long gone and he hasn't thrived in the environment at Ferrari at all.

 

I think he needs love and confidence in his team. He probably doesn't have the resilience of Hamilton but if he had a Mercedes and Bottas as his teammate I'm sure he'd win the title pretty easily. It's the pressure that's getting to him. Sometimes his flaws are exaggerated - he attracts quite a lot of opprobrium - particularly in the British press - and not all of it is fair. Him being pissed off about not winning the 2011 Hungarian GP is being brought up in this thread nearly a decade later despite it being an absolutely standard racing driver reaction.

 

I like him - I think he's funny, clever and great with fans. The paddock would be a poorer place without him. But there's no doubt that he's in the doldrums. Maybe he can rekindle the fire at another team. Maybe - probably even - he never was as good as Hamilton. Better to stop than keep on strugging like this.

[dissident]

Not for the results themselves but I think "toxic" was a word used to justify not renewing his contract

 

They signed Vettel because Alonso was vocal in his complaints and didn't want to sign a long extension (or at least this is how I remember it, it's been a while).

[wj_gibson]

I don't think it was Mattiaci's decision, he was brought in to do the "dirty" job, in Ferrari driver decisions come from above TP position, at least that is my impression.

Mattiaci was brought in by Marchionne as part of his drive to wrest control of the F1 team from di Montezemelo.

 

I think Marchionne was quite agnostic as to whether Alonso stayed or not, I don’t think there was any direct instruction to try to ditch him from the outset. But they had Vettel lined up from quite early on.

[Requiem84]

100 % agreed.

As for the "help" bit. I think for that it's way too late. The early success, especially as Red Bull's golden boy, was already no help, as he had all the success in a phase where drivers build their character usually, but the early Ferrari days following what he certainly filed up as a off-season at Red Bull rather than a genuine problem probably prevented any chance for him to reflect.

But there is just so much you can do even then. While we certainly dont see his true potential right now to some extent he probably is also maybe just limited in some of his skillset. He always had issues in high speed corners, he always had issues with a unstable rear, he always was clumsy wheel to wheel. Sometimes more or less depending on the car he had, but it was always there. And when you cant get that fixed in 14 years maybe you just are not this good.

 

Fiji 2007: the writing was already on the wall, wasn't it? 

2009 Australia: 

 

2010 Spa:

 

2010 Turkey

 

The list is endless. 

[Aaaarrgghh]

That's ironic given, in 2018, it was arguably Seb melting down that cost Ferrari a very recent World Championship. Lol

Sure, but it was also partly Vettel who brought them into the championship fight in the first place. I seem to recall, for instance, that the Ferrari was quite a bit slower in both Australia and Bahrain and both wins, to me at least, felt very fortunate for Ferrari and owed a lot both to strategy (or if it was Mercedes who made a mistake, I can't quite remember) and to Vettel's driving. I hope that Vettel can bounce back from this, because he was the best driver, in my opinion, on the grid in 2015, 2017 and the early parts of 2018 and it's depressing to see where he is mentally right now.

[Zilbert]

Mattiaci was brought in by Marchionne as part of his drive to wrest control of the F1 team from di Montezemelo.

 

I think Marchionne was quite agnostic as to whether Alonso stayed or not, I don’t think there was any direct instruction to try to ditch him from the outset. But they had Vettel lined up from quite early on.

I think Alonso was given a pretty straightforward choice, sort of a forced choice if you like, either he leaves immediately or he commits long term without any escape clauses. Ideally he probably would have liked to remain for a year, see improvements at Ferrari and how Honda Mclaren project looks at the outset.

[baddog]

Meh he won 4 WDC out of the 5 WDC capable cars he has had. Its a good record.

 

I wont sugarcoat it, driving like this weekend he is no use to anyone, but we know he can be a lot better than that so hey, we shall see.

[rodnet1]

At this moment I feel Ferrari are at least partially guilty for Vettel's disastrous season. The lack of engine power means the car has to be driven with very low downforce to still get some kind of result and Vettel has simply never been a hero with twitchy cars. Some drivers are fast in any car (sometimes without knowing themselves how they do it: Ronnie Peterson springs to mind), other drivers need specific characteristics to be succesful, as does Vettel. Add to that the broken pedals and all other problems of last week and obvious present lack of love between Vettel and Ferrari and you have a recipe for a distinctly average season. Vettel IMHO is still quick enough in the right car. Maybe he should accept a number 2 position at his former home and help develop a less twitchy RB16 successor.

Edited by rodnet1, 10 August 2020 - 12:04.

[Marklar]

Meh he won 4 WDC out of the 5 WDC capable cars he has had. Its a good record.

 

I wont sugarcoat it, driving like this weekend he is no use to anyone, but we know he can be a lot better than that so hey, we shall see.

7 imo

2009, 2017 and 2018 were all very capable to win the title, that it didnt went even down to the wire, which many use as a proof for the cars not being capable of winning the title were in parts down to him.

[Diablobb81]

7 imo

2009, 2017 and 2018 were all very capable to win the title, that it didnt went even down to the wire, which many use as a proof for the cars not being capable of winning the title were in parts down to him.

2009 too young and the charge too late.
2017 not really. Merc was the superior car in too many ways. Ferrari was a one trick pony.

[Coral]

It's so sad to see Vettel like this. I have always liked him although I thought he was over-rated during the Red Bull years...I remember back in 2013 when he won nine in a row and at least one commentator said he was "better than Senna." I know hindsight is 20/20 but I always thought that was BS.

 

Yes, the blown diffuser era suited Seb down to the ground, but it still looked as if he was going to be WDC in 2018. But then came Germany 2018...I believe that race was Seb's "sliding doors" moment in F1. Had he won that race, I believe he may well have taken the WDC, and his Ferrari career would possibly have been more rosy. However it was then that things started to go wrong for him. Seb seems to have realised that he is not going to win a WDC for Ferrari,  and he has psychologically "checked out" of the team. 

 

The only way forward now for Seb is to leave Ferrari as soon as possible. He is miserable there and I don't believe Ferrari want him there either. As someone said earlier, Seb and Ferrari are like an estranged couple continuing to live in the same house. It just does not work. They need to split "by mutual agreement." Ferrari could give another driver a go and maybe Vettel could take some time out to get his head together before returning next season with Aston Martin or whoever. But the current situation can't continue...at the moment Seb is tarnishing his reputation.

Edited by Coral, 10 August 2020 - 12:24.

[Hellenic tifosi]

7 imo

2009, 2017 and 2018 were all very capable to win the title, that it didnt went even down to the wire, which many use as a proof for the cars not being capable of winning the title were in parts down to him.

 

2017 was really unwinnable I think - the car was quick only in slow and twisty tracks, and the engine was not a match for Mercedes.

[Anuity]

Yeah, the argument for 2017 is very stretched. If not for his mistakes, he could probably force it into the last races and for that he can be blamed as anything could have happened then, but overall they were just behind Mercedes all around.

[Hellenic tifosi]

I don't think it was Mattiaci's decision, he was brought in to do the "dirty" job, in Ferrari driver decisions come from above TP position, at least that is my impression.

 

You could be right,but regardless of who made the decision in the first place, I am sure that they really regret not having Alonso in the car in 2017 and 2018.

[Massa_f1]

in 2017 and 2018 there is no doubt the title fights should of lasted longer than what they did.

However in the end I doubt Vettel would of won either of them especially with Abu Dhabi being the last round.

I see his mistakes more of being a damage to his reputation then I do of lost titles. I can understand why some think it's both though.

[Anuity]

You could be right,but regardless of who made the decision in the first place, I am sure that they really regret not having Alonso in the car in 2017 and 2018.

Likewise I’m sure they don’t regret having him driving that mediocrity they designed for 2016 and having to listen to his complaints.

[GoldenColt]

2017 was really unwinnable I think - the car was quick only in slow and twisty tracks, and the engine was not a match for Mercedes.

 

Australia, China, Bahrain, Spain, Austria, Belgium, Mexico and Brazil - none of the circuits in these countries are slow and twisty, yet Ferrari were (at least) a match for Mercedes on all of them.

Edited by GoldenColt, 10 August 2020 - 13:05.

[FirstWatt]

@Lights and @Marklar summed it up quite well, not much to add.

 

All this "he needs a car that suits him" "he needs an ambient that suits him" or whaterver reasons are brought up to justify his current state show that he cannot be as great as his 4 WDC suggest. I cannot think of a multiple WDC being as sensitive to his environment and tools.

[DeKnyff]

As far as I remember the word originated from italian media through "unnamed sources within the team" then found its way to the internet forums and stuck. But I may be wrong my memory isn't what once was.

I don't think so, more like the other way round. Besides,"italian media through unnamed sources within the team" is as credible as "random internet forum".

[shure]

@Lights and @Marklar summed it up quite well, not much to add.

 

All this "he needs a car that suits him" "he needs an ambient that suits him" or whaterver reasons are brought up to justify his current state show that he cannot be as great as his 4 WDC suggest. I cannot think of a multiple WDC being as sensitive to his environment and tools.

The reality is though that he's always been synonymous with the EBD and even when he was winning everything a lot was made of how his driving style was perfectly suited to it.  The only question was whether he adapted to it or whether it just was something that came naturally to him.  Now we have a better idea.

 

I think he can still lay claim to being great - if not then that devalues titles IMO and it still requires skill to get the best out of a good car.  He's just not as great as some - a 2nd tier great, as it were.

 

he joins Kimi (who for me is possibly the least adaptable WDC in memory - put him on Michelins and he's pretty much untouchable, but anything else and he's nothing special) and Button as talented drivers who need things a certain way before they can shine.  I still think both Kimi and Button are worthy WDCs, though, just as I think Seb deserved his.  they are still a cut above most other drivers  His star has definitely fallen since then but he remains (IMO at least) a driver who can still mix it up with the best of them if conditions are right.  There are many more drivers who you can't really say that about.

[PlayboyRacer]

I cannot think of a multiple WDC being as sensitive to his environment and tools.

Not sure if this suits what you're saying - but I have Vettel and Mika Hakkinen roughly on the same level matching up their prime years.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 10 August 2020 - 13:21.

[Leibowitz]

While it's sad to see Seb struggling this much (and I am pretty certain that alot of that is psychological), it would be dishonest to somehow blame Ferrari for his failures. He blew it up. He had far superior cars than Alonso has ever had in Ferrari, and Fred took the Championship into the last round twice. So yeah, not a lot of blame for Ferrari except for some horrible strategic decisions they made over the years. And on top of that, he gets beaten by a rookie fair and square. I like Seb a lot, he seems like a great guy, but at some point you have to show some responsibility and acknowledge mistakes.

Edited by Leibowitz, 10 August 2020 - 13:35.

[Atreiu]

Maybe he should give Webber a call for some advice. How times change, eh.

Advice on what, playing victim and missing the apex?

Edited by Atreiu, 10 August 2020 - 13:49.

[pRy]

2010 Spa:

 

That one was always marginal for me. Big speed difference between the cars... changeable conditions and a disturbance of the aero package due to the change of direction behind Button. I don't think Vettel necessarily screwed up there. Name any F1 driver and you'll find incidents like that. No one is perfect.

[Claudius]

Vetel should just leave the sport after this season. I doubt he can do anything to improve his reputation by now.

Driving in the midfield might look like the solution but considering his space awareness, or lack thereof, that would mean many crashes.

Time to go methinks.

[MastaKink]

As far as I remember the word originated from italian media through "unnamed sources within the team" then found its way to the internet forums and stuck. But I may be wrong my memory isn't what once was.

 

The first big thing about toxic I can remember came from a Lewis interview about 2007 after Nico retired and Alonso's name came up and he spoke of the toxic relationship they had between them that spread to the team. He said he thinks it happens between any top drivers tbf but nobody cared he included himself and it grew from there because journo's then follow up and start asking about toxicity and Alonso so they get more quotes about it from the paddock and press, (I think Rosberg said similar shortly after, that his toxicity was keeping him out of top teams or such) so with a poor performing team, a contractually early break up with Ferrari and barbed comments about Honda and hey presto its a thing that only applies to Alonso and his teams.

 

Turns out the kumbayah nonsense around Seb and Ferrari was worth all of diddly squat while the toxic relationship between Lewis and Nico themselves went handsomely rewarded without Mercedes missing a beat and Alonso returns to yet another former team he was supposedly toxic with so that's what that's all been worth. 

 

Before that interview it was 'political' that was usually thrown around the most, from my memory anyway. 

[Louis Mr. F1]

Whatever happens with Seb he needs to lift himself out of the mire because otherwise there’s no point continuing going at all. Next season or this. He’s slow, jittery and being utterly shown up by Leclerc and it’s becoming a Damon Hill ‘99 style embarrassment. It’s a real shame.

 

There's a difference between Hill 99 and Vettel 20;  Damon actually wanted to retire from the sport mid-season as he knew he couldn't perform anymore but Eddie Jordan made him to stay;  apparently, Vettel still wants to prolong his F1 career despite his poor result.

[absinthedude]

@Lights and @Marklar summed it up quite well, not much to add.

 

All this "he needs a car that suits him" "he needs an ambient that suits him" or whaterver reasons are brought up to justify his current state show that he cannot be as great as his 4 WDC suggest. I cannot think of a multiple WDC being as sensitive to his environment and tools.

 

Nelson Piquet

[Anuity]

Hill was much, much worse in 99. He was not even trying and completely destroyed by Frentzen.
It seems that Seb is still trying, but it just does not work for him, at least the last two races. But it’s still too early to judge. He was pretty good in the two weekends prior to Silverstone, so it’s not like he has been completely destroyed by Leclerc. He has still an opportunity to turn it around, though it looks unlikely after these two weekends.

[shure]

Nelson Piquet

was he?  I don't recall that at all

[FLB]

was he?  I don't recall that at all

Brabham from 1980 to 1986 was pretty much tailored around him. After he moved to Williams, it was expected he would make mincemeat out of Nigel Mansell. When that didn't happen, he started playing politics and pitched Williams against Honda. The 1987 Imola crash took a lot out of him, but he was still winning races in the summer of 1987 (Germany, Hungary and Monza).

 

Then, he moved to Lotus (with Honda) and couldn't come remotely close to what Senna had been doing with the team...

[absinthedude]

was he?  I don't recall that at all

 

Piquet himself has said so, albeit well after his retirement. Even the Brabham mechanics have said that he was great, when things were going well and his mind was on it. On weekends when the Brabham wasn't competitive he switched off. 

 

Lots of discussion of this on TNF recently

[shure]

Brabham from 1980 to 1986 was pretty much tailored around him. After he moved to Williams, it was expected he would make mincemeat out of Nigel Mansell. When that didn't happen, he started playing politics and pitched Williams against Honda. The 1987 Imola crash took a lot out of him, but he was still winning races in the summer of 1987 (Germany, Hungary and Monza).

 

Then, he moved to Lotus (with Honda) and couldn't come remotely close to what Senna had been doing with the team...

none  of that shows car sensitivity, though.

 

Piquet was pretty versatile, by all accounts.  But as you say, his Imola crash took a lot out of him.  By his own account he had severe problems afterwards and the fact he won the title that year just shows how good and adaptable he was.  There's a noticeable drop in performance vs Mansell in 1987 compared with 1986 and it coincides perfectly with his Imola crash.  People remember him for his post Williams career sadly but he was never the driver he was before the accident.  He admitted to chasing the money after that as he lost a fair degree of his performance.  I prefer to remember him from before but regardless he never had a reputation for poor adaptability.  He was famous for tinkering with the car and trying new things.  One of the all  time greats as far as I'm concerned and the fact he could still get wins after what he went through is pretty special.  He spent most of 1987 in and out of hospital, always in secret, afraid that if word got out his career would be over.  Has depth perception was all over the place.  That title was a near miracle

[shure]

Piquet himself has said so, albeit well after his retirement. Even the Brabham mechanics have said that he was great, when things were going well and his mind was on it. On weekends when the Brabham wasn't competitive he switched off. 

 

Lots of discussion of this on TNF recently

That's not adaptability, though.  That's motivation.  If he didn't feel the car was competitive, he lost interest.  Nothing to do with having to have a car to suit to be fair.  With Vettel it's more about having to be comfortable in the car.  Two very different things