1488 replies to this topic

[ATM]

Indeed, the radio saga seemed really strange today. I would expect that they should be able to actually work together as professionals, even if they don’t like each other. They can have all the tantrums they like behind closed doors, after the race is over, but when a strategy call is needed asap, all the parties involved should actually collaborate; it’s what they’re getting paid for after all.

That being said, I doubt the Gazzetta news about Vettel to RP for 15 mil. has strong leads. First of all, it’s strange they would know with 2 weeks in advance; second, the 15 mil sum is quiiiite a lot for a driver which does not have many options at the moment (unless we’re talking about a multi-year deal and 15 mil is the total amount, in which case 2+1 years with 5 mil/season sounds reasonable and within RP’s margin for spending). Not to mention such a round amount (15) sounds like it’s being pulled out of a journalist’s hat. Of course, it’s not impossible but I, for one, am moderately cautious about it.

[beachdrifter]

I'm still waiting for that moment when Leclerc retires and the whole team just packs it up, only realizing hours later that Vettel was still driving out there!

[shure]

Listening to the whole exchange it seems that Vettel has more input into his strategy than his engineer does.  It's no wonder he sounds peeved because it sounds as though he's been given a work experience student on his pitwall and he's having to do  it all himself.

[FLB]

Listening to the whole exchange it seems that Vettel has more input into his strategy than his engineer does.  It's no wonder he sounds peeved because it sounds as though he's been given a work experience student on his pitwall and he's having to do  it all himself.

 

Everybody has their eyes on Ferrari right now... and everybody is looking for the next mistake. I can understand the engineer being undecisive in that context.

 

 

That's the effect of having a blame culture: you become so afraid of being blamed for making the wrong decision, that you cannot make one.

[Loosenut]

I really don't want Sebastian's career to end like this. He's such a great character, he has been so good for F1.

I hope he has a good 2nd half of this season. C'mon Seb! 

[goldenboy]

I don't know, maybe it's not that bad. Ferrari definitely made a blunder by giving him a late ask about not stopping again, but it was the right call.

I don't buy that he is being sabotaged and that Ferrari basically forgot he was even racing and were packing up once Leclerc was out lol.

It's quite obvious to me he needs to have his ego stroked big time and when he doesn't get that, his mood and performance drops.

Charles is being a hell of a lot better person to Vettel than when it was the other way around with him and Webber.

I remember many times thinking about the day the tables will turn and here we are finally. Sure, Vettel is not a terrible person, but as far as his F1 career goes, I do feel he is getting his appropriate comeuppance. At least he got his titles and a boatload of cash early on though I suppose.

[Radion]

I wonder where this outcry of Vettel fans was when Kimi was being shat on by the team. Funny how things change 😉

[shure]

I wonder where this outcry of Vettel fans was when Kimi was being shat on by the team. Funny how things change

you'll find quite a number did complain that Kimi seems to have been forgotten for the most part

[taran]

I'm still waiting for that moment when Leclerc retires and the whole team just packs it up, only realizing hours later that Vettel was still driving out there!

 

You mean what happened at Williams when Boutsen won the Hungarian Grand Prix in 1990?
 

[ExEd]

Everybody has their eyes on Ferrari right now... and everybody is looking for the next mistake. I can understand the engineer being undecisive in that context.

 

 

That's the effect of having a blame culture: you become so afraid of being blamed for making the wrong decision, that you cannot make one.

 

Sums up Ferrari all in all.

 

I can remember few articles written within the years on how the politics and power games 

affecting every person in the team.

When leadership is about to change, heads to about roll and usually everyone has to choose a side and  

"our guy" vs "your guy" becomes a thing.

 

Not really about healthy internal competition that comes naturally in corporate platforms.

More like mistrust, fear of wrong judgement and a really toxic environment to work within.

[FortiFord]

The views of Colin Kolles (former TP of HRT):

 

https://www.grandpri...ays-kolles.html

 

"And they announced the separation much too early. That completely destroyed the season for them,"

"But the problems started a few years ago, when Sebastian could have won the world championship but did not get the team's full support.

"When a team wants to become world champion, it has to have one number 1 driver. And that should have been Vettel," 

"Drivers are very sensitive when they feel they are not receiving full support."

[Cyanide]

The views of Colin Kolles (former TP of HRT):

 

https://www.grandpri...ays-kolles.html

 

What a load of BS. 

 

He was #1 at Ferrari for 4 years. He blew a lot of races all by himself, whilst he had the full support of his team all the way. Now that doesn't excuse Ferrari's behavior towards him now, but saying he did not win a championship because the team did not support him is laughable. 

[iSpeedFreak]

Here's the full exchange with his engineer during the race, of which we only heard a snippet:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=dOQrM5qHfrY

 

I actually don't think it was as charged as the clip made it sound. It is amazing how much input Vettel has into the strategy though. I'm pretty sure most other drivers are just told what to do and do it.

 

 

I think thats a great example of how much Seb manages the strategy. I wouldn't be surprised if that is what has happened over the last few years every single race. When you are driving an F1 car and fighting for championships, you need your full focus on driving the car.

 

Lewis relies on Bono to feed him the information so that he can focus on driving and achieve the best results. It seems Seb not only has to think about driving the car, but managing the outcome of his strategies, something that the rows on engineers on the pit wall and back of the factory and Maranello should be doing and feeding it back to him. Tell him his objectives and let him focus on his driving. Instead Seb is pretty much the driver and the race engineer. No wonder the unforced spins and errors come in as he is driving distracted and constantly calculating what his engineers should be doing.

 

Shame to see Seb like this. Hopefully he finds something in him to motivate and hopefully recover from this slump (hopefully at AM next year or maybe a year out)

[TheFish]

What a load of BS.

He was #1 at Ferrari for 4 years. He blew a lot of races all by himself, whilst he had the full support of his team all the way. Now that doesn't excuse Ferrari's behavior towards him now, but saying he did not win a championship because the team did not support him is laughable.

He’s not blameless at all, but 2 of the most important races at Ferrari for him were Germany and Italy 2018. Both times he ended up behind Kimi and it compromised him both times, causing him to drop a huge amount of points. Had he been treated then as a number 1, he may have won the title.

[Lights]

He’s not blameless at all, but 2 of the most important races at Ferrari for him were Germany and Italy 2018. Both times he ended up behind Kimi and it compromised him both times, causing him to drop a huge amount of points. Had he been treated then as a number 1, he may have won the title.

 

I've never seen this being used as an argument for anyone but Vettel. There's always moments where a championship challenger ends up behind his teammate for whatever reason, or qualifies behind, and very rarely are those teammates ushered out of the way immediately. I don't recall any other driver binning it with that cited as the reason, but apparently for Vettel that happened twice in one season. In which he made many other notable mistakes as well.

 

The reality is that Vettel is simply error-prone, especially under pressure, also without a teammate 'compromising' him.

[Misk]

 

The reality is that Vettel is simply error-prone, especially under pressure, also without a teammate 'compromising' him.

 

 

I understand why people might feel this way but I find this argument to be highly revisionist. 2010 and 2012 were two of the tightest battles for the WDC in the last 10 years (only 2016 comes close really) and Vettel won both under huge pressure. 

Edited by Misk, 17 August 2020 - 16:10.

[FortiFord]

He’s not blameless at all, but 2 of the most important races at Ferrari for him were Germany and Italy 2018. Both times he ended up behind Kimi and it compromised him both times, causing him to drop a huge amount of points. Had he been treated then as a number 1, he may have won the title.

 

I think the huge amount of dropped points came from mistakes in those 2 races, rather than anything Kimi did or didn't do. Neither Vettel nor the team attributed those mistakes to Kimi compromising him. 

 

Interestingly, his championship rival ended up in an almost identical situation in Sochi that year. He started behind Bottas who defended against him into turn 1. Bottas was then given the undercut (over Hamilton). This meant Hamilton dropped behind Vettel in the first round of pitstops. However Hamilton got his head down and capitalized on a Vettel lock up to pass him cleanly. Mercedes gave a team order to Bottas to let Hamilton by.  I imagine if Vettel had kept it together at Monza and been a bit more patient, then Ferrari would have given the order to Kimi to let him by at some stage in the race.  

[FortiFord]

I understand why people might feel this way but I find this argument to be highly revisionist. 2010 and 2012 were two of the tightest battles for the WDC in the last 10 years (only 2016 comes close really) and Vettel won both under huge pressure. 

 

He made plenty of mistakes in those seasons too.

[ATM]

I understand why people might feel this way but I find this argument to be highly revisionist. 2010 and 2012 were two of the tightest battles for the WDC in the last 10 years (only 2016 comes close really) and Vettel won both under huge pressure.

The big difference, I think, is that all the pressure was coming from outside the team back then. RBR were fully behind Vettel in his task, sometimes even to the point that Webber had his famous ravings (such as “not bad for a no. 2 driver” one). Ferrari, on the other hand, is famous for their boiler room approach. Some drivers can take it (Alonso, for instance), others crack under internal pressure.

[Boxerevo]

The problem is in his skills, he has plenty of unforced errors too like that one in Silverstone start.

[RPM40]

I understand why people might feel this way but I find this argument to be highly revisionist. 2010 and 2012 were two of the tightest battles for the WDC in the last 10 years (only 2016 comes close really) and Vettel won both under huge pressure. 

They were only high pressure due to his errors. Those titles should have been a walk in the park for him given his hardware.

Edited by RPM40, 17 August 2020 - 21:11.

[Spillage]

2010 was primarily close due to the comparative unreliability of the Red Bull - Vettel lost at least three nailed-on race victories due to mechanical issues.

2012 was just an exceptionally open season. I don't recall Vettel being especially error prone that season. Again they lost a lot of points through unreliability. In both seasons Vettel drove well when the pressure was really on at the end of the season.

[Bleu]

2010 was primarily close due to the comparative unreliability of the Red Bull - Vettel lost at least three nailed-on race victories due to mechanical issues.

2012 was just an exceptionally open season. I don't recall Vettel being especially error prone that season. Again they lost a lot of points through unreliability. In both seasons Vettel drove well when the pressure was really on at the end of the season.

 

Very much true. I could easily say that in terms of mistakes, Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton all had better seasons in 2012 than in 2010, and also Kimi's 2012 was better than Webber's 2010. That concludes top four of championship those years.

[shure]

Very much true. I could easily say that in terms of mistakes, Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton all had better seasons in 2012 than in 2010, and also Kimi's 2012 was better than Webber's 2010. That concludes top four of championship those years.

yes plus the Pirelli tyres threw everybody in 2012 and the first half was a bit of a lottery while everyone got to grips with them

[FortiFord]

2010 was primarily close due to the comparative unreliability of the Red Bull - Vettel lost at least three nailed-on race victories due to mechanical issues.

2012 was just an exceptionally open season. I don't recall Vettel being especially error prone that season. Again they lost a lot of points through unreliability. In both seasons Vettel drove well when the pressure was really on at the end of the season.

 

I guess a logical follow up question would be why did he not drive well at the end of 2017 and particularly 2018 season (when the pressure was on)?

 

Does he need the support from Marko? Does he need the car advantage and pole position?

[Red5ive]

I'm still waiting for that moment when Leclerc retires and the whole team just packs it up, only realizing hours later that Vettel was still driving out there!

 

This 100%.

 

It really sounded like they were only interested in LeClerc and when he dropped out it was then "oh yeah we have another driver in the race - what shall we do"

[garoidb]

I'm still waiting for that moment when Leclerc retires and the whole team just packs it up, only realizing hours later that Vettel was still driving out there!

 

 

This 100%.

 

It really sounded like they were only interested in LeClerc and when he dropped out it was then "oh yeah we have another driver in the race - what shall we do"

 

They couldn't figure out why there was space for another car in the lorry! 

[KavB]

2010 was primarily close due to the comparative unreliability of the Red Bull - Vettel lost at least three nailed-on race victories due to mechanical issues.

2012 was just an exceptionally open season. I don't recall Vettel being especially error prone that season. Again they lost a lot of points through unreliability. In both seasons Vettel drove well when the pressure was really on at the end of the season.

2010 was a strange season where all of the championship contenders made big mistakes. Everyone in the top 5 except Hamilton drove a much cleaner season the year after as demonstrated by them all outscoring their respective 2010 tally. 

 

Vettel made some big mistakes that season but no more than Alonso and only a tad more than Hamilton that year. Like you said, the only reason it was close is because of the 80 point swing he lost to Alonso from those 3 victories he lost where Alonso inherited two of them. Alonso also benefited from team orders in Germany which brought it even closer. 

 

Vettel did let a few more wins slip away but in the end the right person won the title that year.

[MikeTekRacing]

he drove a fine race in Spain and a fine race in Silverstone (after the spin). He needs to build on his positives, improve his state of mind.

The  team  is awful, but he shouldn't focus on that. He's doing a fine job lately, needs to keep pushing.

I am happy to see him race well

[HeadFirst]

I'm still waiting for that moment when Leclerc retires and the whole team just packs it up, only realizing hours later that Vettel was still driving out there!

 

My greatest fear (a nightmare actually) racing bicycles, was to be dropped by the peloton and arrive at the finish totally exhausted, only to discover that everyone has packed up and gone home, including my girlfriend with the car.

[KnucklesAgain]

My greatest fear (a nightmare actually) racing bicycles, was to be dropped by the peloton and arrive at the finish totally exhausted, only to discover that everyone has packed up and gone home, including my girlfriend with the car.

I had this nightmare in Thailand about a boat excursion to a remote riff for snorkeling, to come around the rock and find the boat gone. I thin this actually happened to someone

[shure]

I had this nightmare in Thailand about a boat excursion to a remote riff for snorkeling, to come around the rock and find the boat gone. I thin this actually happened to someone

the film Open Water was supposedly based on the true story of a diving couple in Australia who that happened to

[KnucklesAgain]

the film Open Water was supposedly based on the true story of a diving couple in Australia who that happened to

Right, my nightmare was before the film, so I guess maybe based on the same story. There are also some possibly apocryphal stories about a bunch of people having fun and jumping off a sailboat, only to realize that nobody had stayed on board, the ladder was not lowered to water level, and no way to get back onto the boat. Absolute horror (nowadays avoided by the ladder always being accessible, but I guess might have happened decades ago)

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 21 August 2020 - 10:05.

[Massa_f1]

He’s not blameless at all, but 2 of the most important races at Ferrari for him were Germany and Italy 2018. Both times he ended up behind Kimi and it compromised him both times, causing him to drop a huge amount of points. Had he been treated then as a number 1, he may have won the title.

 

Agree Seb is not blameless they were HIS errors, but i never understood why Ferrari allowed the situation in the mention races to happen.

 

The radio exchange to Kimi in Germany should of been simple and to the point, but instead they had a full discussion about tyres to the point where Kimi was saying just tell me what you are asking me to do here. Even he got fed up as Ferrari continued to beat around the bush as the Merc closed in.

[as65p]

Right, my nightmare was before the film, so I guess maybe based on the same story. There are also some possibly apocryphal stories about a bunch of people having fun and jumping off a sailboat, only to realize that nobody had stayed on board, the ladder was not lowered to water level, and no way to get back onto the boat. Absolute horror (nowadays avoided by the ladder always being accessible, but I guess might have happened decades ago)

 

Well, that's the story of Open Water 2.

 

Are you sure you didn't write the script for those two movies and have just forgotten about it? Age and all that...

 

[Trust]

He needs to let Kimi finish his career at Ferrari. Get it done Seb.

[KnucklesAgain]

Well, that's the story of Open Water 2.

Are you sure you didn't write the script for those two movies and have just forgotten about it? Age and all that...

Quite possible I guess I must watch both movies now

[HeadFirst]

I have no idea if Racing Point will offer Seb the drive, or what he will do. If he is offered the RP seat, even at a greatly reduced salary, I would suggest he take it and begin the task of rebuilding his career.

[TheFish]

Agree Seb is not blameless they were HIS errors, but i never understood why Ferrari allowed the situation in the mention races to happen.

The radio exchange to Kimi in Germany should of been simple and to the point, but instead they had a full discussion about tyres to the point where Kimi was saying just tell me what you are asking me to do here. Even he got fed up as Ferrari continued to beat around the bush as the Merc closed in.

Yep, this 100%

As a Hamilton fan it worked out brilliantly, but at the time it felt like Vettel had it to lose. Which obviously they did, but if things had gone smoother in Hockenheim and Monza it could have been very different.