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What should Sebastian Vettel/Ferrari do?


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Poll: The future of Vettel at Ferrari... (415 member(s) have cast votes)

Sebastian Vettel should?

  1. Change teams (75 votes [18.07%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.07%

  2. Stick with Ferrari and hope things get better soon (122 votes [29.40%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.40%

  3. Call it a day, retire from the sport, and enjoy spending more time with his family (218 votes [52.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 52.53%

Ferrari should?

  1. Continue to have faith in Vettel (112 votes [26.99%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.99%

  2. Start looking at replacements (state who) (303 votes [73.01%])

    Percentage of vote: 73.01%

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#801 kosmos

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 09:26

I don't want to. He should have been better and shouldn't have lost his head. Doesn't change the fact that bring it to the last race is no real goal.  

 

Looks like is the most basic goal if you want to win the title, we agree to disagree.



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#802 player1s

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 09:31

I think the marriage between Vettel and Ferrari is over but they keep on going for now because neither has a real alternative.

 

Only option for Vettel would be RBR but he'd basically be in the same situation as he is now with LeClerc.
For Ferrari there arent any serious candidates available. Either they are locked in an expensive contract or are just not good enough.

 

So I think they'll stick together for 2020 at least.



#803 balage06

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 09:56

Everytime I touch on this topic someone labels me as a Vettel hater, but I still think the core of Seb's problems is that he developed this mentality at Red Bull when in close combat, he always concentrates on how the other party should or should have behave differently in order to make his attempt successful. And he makes himself upset. He can carve his way through the field incredibly effectively in a faster car, he proved this countless times, but as soon as he faces strong opposition in the form of a worthy opponent who he can't beat by simply being faster, he gets tense and frustrated.

 

I think both Hamilton and Verstappen has this natural "rogue" racing style like Schumacher, this "sometimes dirty, but still mostly respectful" way of driving. And this is why I'm never nervous when those two fight each other, these things come to them naturally and it rarely ends in tears. But when either of them fights with Vettel, I always expect something bad to happen nowadays, because it seems like Seb can't control his emotions in these situations.


Edited by balage06, 11 September 2019 - 10:51.


#804 ViMaMo

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 10:30

Vettel by now should let the pressure of winning a title with Ferrari slide. It's clear that somethings doesn't seem to suit him. Make the best of the rest, like saving his legacy without making silly errors. Drive like Kimi or JB just for the pleasure of being in F1.

#805 Jon83

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 10:41

Everytime I touch on this topic I get that I'm a Vettel hater, but I still think the core of Seb's problems is that he developed this mentality at Red Bull when in close combat, he always concentrates on how the other party should or should have behave differently in order to make his attempt successful.

 

In the heat of the moment perhaps, but I don't see much difference compared to other drivers.

 

Out of interest, why are you a "Vettel hater"?



#806 balage06

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 10:50

In the heat of the moment perhaps, but I don't see much difference compared to other drivers.

 

Out of interest, why are you a "Vettel hater"?

 

I meant someone labels me as a Vettel hater. I like his personality, but I'm not a huge fan of his as a driver, that's for sure. :)



#807 Jon83

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 10:57

I meant someone labels me as a Vettel hater. I like his personality, but I'm not a huge fan of his as a driver, that's for sure. :)

 

Ah, my apologies!



#808 F1Chris

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 11:00

Bring back Kimi Räikkönen...  :smoking:



#809 Imateria

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 11:23

Autosport is really ridiculous now with their anti Vettel campaign. What is it with them and Ferrari drivers? First Kimi got slammed when being there, now Vettel is there favorit subject. Just stop it. 

Why do some fans thing a driver in a top team who has been underperforming for an extended period of time should be immune to criticism?



#810 CSF

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 11:26

The inevitable Charles Leclerc version of this thread in 4 years will be fun. 



#811 baddog

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 11:28

Why do some fans thing a driver in a top team who has been underperforming for an extended period of time should be immune to criticism?

 

He deserves considerable criticism. An article this week from Autosport laying out their criticisms of his recent performances would be most appropriate. It was in fact. Then the second one was a bit dull. The third was an excuse for Matt Bishop to grind his rusty old axe. The fourth was just silly. Etc. 



#812 JHSingo

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 13:34

The inevitable Charles Leclerc version of this thread in 4 years will be fun. 

 

It's crazy how much talent Ferrari has burned through post-Schumacher, with precious little to show for it other than one WDC and one WCC. Raikkonen, Alonso and now Vettel wasted.

 

But then, it was much the same story before Schumacher as well. It seems like Ferrari is the poisoned chalice of F1. So many drivers dream of being the one to return Ferrari to "greatness". So many fail.



#813 CSF

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 14:22

It's crazy how much talent Ferrari has burned through post-Schumacher, with precious little to show for it other than one WDC and one WCC. Raikkonen, Alonso and now Vettel wasted.

 

But then, it was much the same story before Schumacher as well. It seems like Ferrari is the poisoned chalice of F1. So many drivers dream of being the one to return Ferrari to "greatness". So many fail.

 

Many like to think of Ferrari as this all singing and all dancing winning machine, but it hasn't been for 40 years! In that period it has had one period of dominance, and occasional challenges. 

 

The dream team was so un Ferrari, a top group of people with a good structure and calm heads, something that Ferrari struggles massively without. 

 

I couldn't imagine being a driver trying to bring success to Ferrari, and having all that weight on your shoulders year after year. It would be totally draining.  



#814 taran

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 14:26

It's crazy how much talent Ferrari has burned through post-Schumacher, with precious little to show for it other than one WDC and one WCC. Raikkonen, Alonso and now Vettel wasted.

 

But then, it was much the same story before Schumacher as well. It seems like Ferrari is the poisoned chalice of F1. So many drivers dream of being the one to return Ferrari to "greatness". So many fail.

 

Very true. Driving talent has never been Ferrari’s problem. Nor has engineering talent with people like Harvey Postlewaite and John Barnard. Harnessing its full capabilities is the problem once the other teams evolved from garagistes to professional semi-works teams in their own right.

Niki Lauda famously wondered when joining Ferrari why they didn’t win more races. After being there for a while, he wondered how they even won any races.

 

I have no doubt that Schumacher would also have failed at Ferrari, just winning the odd race, if not for convincing Jean Todt to bring the entire Benetton team into the Ferrari fold.

 

Ross Brawn, Rory Byrne and a few others brought discipline and procedures to Ferrari which it lacked before and has since lost when that generation was replaced by a generation of Italian engineers. TBH, I don’t know why Italian engineers can’t get it right at Ferrari because they are sufficiently talented as shown when in other teams but clearly grande casino, departmental infighting and immense pressure from the Italian press and fans is something fundamental at Ferrari which only an operator as Jean Todt could manage.


Edited by taran, 11 September 2019 - 14:27.


#815 Risil

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 14:47

I really think there might be something in this. Mika Hakkinen talked of the pressure of mounting a title challenge being exhausting, so much so that by 2001 he was totally burned out. And that was before we had 20+ races a season.

Vettel is a man with a young family and so plenty of responsibility away from the racetrack. Perhaps it isn't surprising that he shows signs of fatigue as the seasons wear on. I'm actually quite surprised that more drivers don't show the same.

 

Kevin Cameron hypothesized a 10-year-rule among successful international sportsmen. Some combination of travel, pressure, physical conditioning and focus meant that bike racers, whatever the discipline, rarely lasted more than a decade at the top. So I could believe it's burn-out. 

 
On the other hand, I dunno, maybe Leclerc is simply quicker than Vettel and Seb's making mistakes trying to keep up.


#816 Risil

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 14:51

Very true. Driving talent has never been Ferrari’s problem. Nor has engineering talent with people like Harvey Postlewaite and John Barnard. Harnessing its full capabilities is the problem once the other teams evolved from garagistes to professional semi-works teams in their own right.
Niki Lauda famously wondered when joining Ferrari why they didn’t win more races. After being there for a while, he wondered how they even won any races.
 
I have no doubt that Schumacher would also have failed at Ferrari, just winning the odd race, if not for convincing Jean Todt to bring the entire Benetton team into the Ferrari fold.
 
Ross Brawn, Rory Byrne and a few others brought discipline and procedures to Ferrari which it lacked before and has since lost when that generation was replaced by a generation of Italian engineers. TBH, I don’t know why Italian engineers can’t get it right at Ferrari because they are sufficiently talented as shown when in other teams but clearly grande casino, departmental infighting and immense pressure from the Italian press and fans is something fundamental at Ferrari which only an operator as Jean Todt could manage.

 

In the decade or so since 2006 I'd rather have been Ferrari than McLaren, Renault/Lotus or Williams. One problem with the perennial Italy vs Britain debate in F1 is that it's really Ferrari vs Every Other Team. Every bad year for Ferrari is held up as a national failure, but whenever one of the British marques struggles there's usually another one doing well in its place.



#817 Atreiu

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 14:52

It's crazy how much talent Ferrari has burned through post-Schumacher, with precious little to show for it other than one WDC and one WCC. Raikkonen, Alonso and now Vettel wasted.

 

But then, it was much the same story before Schumacher as well. It seems like Ferrari is the poisoned chalice of F1. So many drivers dream of being the one to return Ferrari to "greatness". So many fail.

 

I have different opinions.

 

There is nothing poisoned about Ferrari. They have been and remain constant winners and contenders all through the decades (which is more than I can say about the team I root for).

 

The difference in their sucess during and after Schumacher's era is due to how better prepared (or served) they were during the tyre-war era compared to now. Of course some people always tried to minimize the impact of their relationship with Bridgestone, but those people had their own agendas or biases (which I do not equate to malicious intent).

 

Also, there were several self influcted wounds in some of their more painful defeats which better driving could have avoided.


Edited by Atreiu, 11 September 2019 - 14:54.


#818 AlexPrime

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 14:53

 

 

On the other hand, I dunno, maybe Leclerc is simply quicker than Vettel and Seb's making mistakes trying to keep up.

 

He made mistakes while being quicker than Kimi, though. I think that for him F1 is stagnant and he doesn't enjoy the cars. That's why I hope that he switches disciplines.



#819 Hela

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 14:54

Kevin Cameron hypothesized a 10-year-rule among successful international sportsmen. Some combination of travel, pressure, physical conditioning and focus meant that bike racers, whatever the discipline, rarely lasted more than a decade at the top. So I could believe it's burn-out. 
 
On the other hand, I dunno, maybe Leclerc is simply quicker than Vettel and Seb's making mistakes trying to keep up.


Dunno about that but Prost & Schumacher I think lasted over 10 years and Hamilton is in his 13th year so I guess this is driver dependent rather than a blanket rule

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#820 taran

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 14:57

In the decade or so since 2006 I'd rather have been Ferrari than McLaren, Renault/Lotus or Williams. One problem with the perennial Italy vs Britain debate in F1 is that it's really Ferrari vs Every Other Team. Every bad year for Ferrari is held up as a national failure, but whenever one of the British marques struggles there's usually another one doing well in its place.

 

True enough and worth remembering. But unlike some of those teams, Ferrari had the means to be (ultra)competitive each and every year.

Their budget is always top notch. They make their own engines so they aren't hostage to other companies competence and investment levels. They can afford the best drivers. Yet somehow it doesn't work out for them.



#821 garoidb

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 15:05

Dunno about that but Prost & Schumacher I think lasted over 10 years and Hamilton is in his 13th year so I guess this is driver dependent rather than a blanket rule

 

If there is any validity to this, I wouldn't expect it to hit Lewis while he is still comfortably winning championships. After that, who knows?



#822 Requiem84

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 15:14

Well the thing is as long as the speed is there (which it clearly is) the mistakes can in fact stop any day and suddenly things look different. Or he may never clean it up and will retire after next year.

 

I guess we will all find out together.

 

Isn't the speed there because he is driving too close to his limit, with the increased risk of mistakes?



#823 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 15:14

The inevitable Charles Leclerc version of this thread in 4 years will be fun. 

 

But Leclerc is an ace.  :up:

 

 

maybe Leclerc is simply quicker than Vettel and Seb's making mistakes trying to keep up.

 

 

Ricciardo simply quicker than Vettel too. :)


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 11 September 2019 - 15:20.


#824 Atreiu

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 15:41

Everybody is quicker than Vettel, except poor Mr Underdog against the world and the meanies at Red Bull, otherwise known as Mark Webber. Or maybe even Webber was faster, but Red Bull snuck in ballast to slow him down.


Edited by Atreiu, 11 September 2019 - 15:41.


#825 Ramon69

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 15:51

What i find weird is, Vettel didn't spin in 2014, or make mistakes in 2015-2016.

 

It was only last year, he started to make all these mistakes, and continue into this year. Something is just not right somewhere.

Maybe it's like Binotto said, that he is overdriving. I mean for people in here it's always easy to be suspicious and not trust anyone, but you also don't lose skills over night.

 

I think with Vettel it's a combination of these three factors that are causing his downfall: high pressure from Ferrari, a car that he doesn't like (rear end) and the fact that he is overdriving it to beat a faster Mercedes. It's really not that hard to believe if you think about it. I think it's less about the pressure from Charles and more about these factors, but yeah, in the same time, people always enjoy putting Vettel down and downplay his achievements for some reason.



#826 AustinF1

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 17:06

Rebuilding Vettel's confidence "won't be easy" - Brawn

 

https://www.motorspo...-brawn/4538761/

 

 

It is "essential" Ferrari rebuilds Sebastian Vettel's confidence for next season, reckons ex-Formula 1 team boss Ross Brawn after Vettel's latest errors in the Italian Grand Prix.

...

"Vettel is clearly one of the greats of our sport, but at this tough time he really needs the support of the team to regain the confidence he seems to be lacking at the moment," said now-F1 sporting chief Brawn in his regular post-race review.
 
"That, as well as pushing on with the car development, has to be a priority for Mattia Binotto in the coming weeks.
 
"It won't be easy, but it is essential especially in terms of 2020."
 
Brawn suspected Vettel felt "let down" by Leclerc after the qualifying farce on Saturday, when Leclerc delayed committing to giving Vettel a tow as agreed because drivers were delaying each other massively to avoid losing out on a tow.
 
"However, what happened in the race was down to him alone," said Brawn.
...
Brawn also hinted at Leclerc showing signs of emulating seven-time world champion Schumacher after winning at Spa and Monza back-to-back.
 
"The last Ferrari man to do that in these two races was Michael in 1996. Maybe history is beginning to repeat itself."

Edited by AustinF1, 11 September 2019 - 17:06.


#827 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 17:12

 high pressure from Ferrari, a car that he doesn't like (rear end) and the fact that he is overdriving it to beat a faster Mercedes.

 

But Leclerc can drive the car just fine?  :confused:

 

 

people always enjoy putting Vettel down and downplay his achievements for some reason.

 

Is it not strange that both Ricciardo and Leclerc are able to beat Vettel, supposedly an ace 4xWDC, so easily?


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 11 September 2019 - 17:14.


#828 Henri Greuter

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 17:14

I really think there might be something in this. Mika Hakkinen talked of the pressure of mounting a title challenge being exhausting, so much so that by 2001 he was totally burned out. And that was before we had 20+ races a season.

Vettel is a man with a young family and so plenty of responsibility away from the racetrack. Perhaps it isn't surprising that he shows signs of fatigue as the seasons wear on. I'm actually quite surprised that more drivers don't show the same.

 

A bit more of understanding for Nico too by now????



#829 Marklar

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 18:59

It's crazy how much talent Ferrari has burned through post-Schumacher, with precious little to show for it other than one WDC and one WCC. Raikkonen, Alonso and now Vettel wasted.

 

But then, it was much the same story before Schumacher as well. It seems like Ferrari is the poisoned chalice of F1. So many drivers dream of being the one to return Ferrari to "greatness". So many fail.

Not really sure why people act like this is a Ferrari problem.

McLaren spend the last 16 years with Prime Kimi, Alonso, Hamilton and Button (at times even two of them) in the car and only won one lucky WDC during that time, just to name a recent example.

If some things go a bit differently Ferrari wins the title in 2008, 2010, 2012, 2017, 2018, which would have made them the most successful constructor during that period. Alas, they all didnt happen. Partly due to driver fault, partly due to the cars failure, and most of the time both.


Edited by Marklar, 11 September 2019 - 19:04.


#830 thefinalapex

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 08:28


He also got his front wing clipped in Canada at the start. It broke at the restart.


That wasn’t his fault tho was it? He backed out of it and got hit by an agressive Verstappen.

#831 Calorus

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 09:43

Frankly Vettel is really good, but was never an all time great; he is woeful under pressure, but was protected from it by low expectations, a weak teammate, and a phenomenal car.

Every young teammate he's had since has drubbed him, his time is up.

Ferrari need to take Hulk as a number 2/solid but less fast driver and get on with giving Leclerc a season long run at Hamilton and Verstappen.

What's more, I predicted all of this.


Edited by Calorus, 12 September 2019 - 09:45.


#832 1Devil1

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 10:09

Frankly Vettel is really good, but was never an all time great; he is woeful under pressure, but was protected from it by low expectations, a weak teammate, and a phenomenal car.

Every young teammate he's had since has drubbed him, his time is up.

Ferrari need to take Hulk as a number 2/solid but less fast driver and get on with giving Leclerc a season long run at Hamilton and Verstappen.

What's more, I predicted all of this.

 

Never understand that sentiment he is woeful under pressure he needed nearly perfected race in 2010 and 2012 in the end to have a slightly chance. I would even say, he was strong it that department before he went to Ferrari. Since then he can't deal with the pressure anymore. Perhaps something changed, the enviroment at Red Bull was better or his younger self didn't care a lot. He had his 'red mist' moments at Red Bull but coming to crunchtime you could count on him. 


Edited by 1Devil1, 12 September 2019 - 10:34.


#833 Unicast

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 10:27

Currently Ferrari has the strongest pair of drivers on the grid. They would be foolish to ditch Vettel and Vettel sould also not like to see his legacy in F1 ending on a string of bad performances & blunders so it's beneficial for both parties to keep the partnership going (at least for 2020).

After 2020 it will depend on many things and it's difficult to make a prediction.



#834 goldenboy

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 10:33

Never understand that sentiment he is woeful under pressure he needed nearly perfected race in 2010 and 2012 in the end to have a slightly chance. It would even say, he was strong it that deparment before he went to Ferrari. Since then he can't deal with the pressure anymore. Perhaps something changed, the enviroment at Red Bull was better or his younger self didn't care a lot. He had his 'red mist' moments at Red Bull but coming to crunchtime you could count on him.

True, but I also think he had a big majority backing/support from the team management. Which is what made the malaysia debacle so peculiar.

#835 7MGTEsup

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 11:03

But Leclerc can drive the car just fine?  :confused:

 

 

 

Is it not strange that both Ricciardo and Leclerc are able to beat Vettel, supposedly an ace 4xWDC, so easily?

 

Remember 2012 when button "lost the balance" of the car and went missing for a good few races while Hamilton was up front? It is possible for a driver to not like a car even though his team mate is running up front in the same car. Vettel seems to have his driving style and if the car don't suit then he doesn't seem to be able to adapt as well as some drivers.

 

Going back to the Redbull blown diffuser days the rear of the car was very planted which is why he was fast, make the back end twitchy and he doesn't seem to cope very well.



#836 Jovanotti

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 11:18

Remember 2012 when button "lost the balance" of the car and went missing for a good few races while Hamilton was up front? It is possible for a driver to not like a car even though his team mate is running up front in the same car. Vettel seems to have his driving style and if the car don't suit then he doesn't seem to be able to adapt as well as some drivers.

Going back to the Redbull blown diffuser days the rear of the car was very planted which is why he was fast, make the back end twitchy and he doesn't seem to cope very well.

Ssshhh, driver performance is supposed to be constant.

#837 1Devil1

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 11:28

Ssshhh, driver performance is supposed to be constant.

 

Why was the gap between Rosberg and Hamilton much smaller in 2013?  ;) Or different years where Rubens got closer to Michael. If you heard Irvine when cars became better the gap between him and Michael wasn't big as before. Before that Michael could compensate a bad car a lot with his 'tiny' steering input. A technique you would destroy the tires today. Also the new formula didn't (blown diffuser) suit Schumacher because liked to use throttle and break at the same time. You heard his engieer talking he should do that anymore. It's possible a certain regulation set is perfect for one driver and he loses his edge after that. The best stay at the top, perhaps with a smaller gap ;)  



#838 PedroR

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 12:07

https://youtu.be/jYOM0v6ajRE

#839 taran

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 13:53

 

Wow, just wow.....



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#840 Calorus

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 14:07

Remember 2012 when button "lost the balance" of the car and went missing for a good few races while Hamilton was up front? It is possible for a driver to not like a car even though his team mate is running up front in the same car. Vettel seems to have his driving style and if the car don't suit then he doesn't seem to be able to adapt as well as some drivers.

 

Going back to the Redbull blown diffuser days the rear of the car was very planted which is why he was fast, make the back end twitchy and he doesn't seem to cope very well.

 

Exactly; Button isn't as good as Hamilton, Vettel isn't as good as his legend (or Ricciardo and Leclerc).

That's sort of the point.

(I still love your name)


Edited by Calorus, 12 September 2019 - 14:12.


#841 Marklar

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 14:10

This entire good under pressure is a weird thing. Until his very last race in F1 Rosberg was seen as bad under pressure, since he repeatedly threw away wins under Hamilton's pressure and in the last races before clinching the title he appeared utterly rattled but managed to somehow finish 2nd in each of them with luck (VSC, spinning but narrowly avoiding the wall etc). Then he won the title and all of the sudden a narrative started to be created of him being mentally stronger than any driver in recent times (lol).

I dont think that you can track back every failure down on pressure. They can all deal with pressure to some extent, otherwise they would probably screw up Q3 every time. Usually it's more that contributes to a run like this (motivation, confidence, overdriving, etc.)

#842 Unicast

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 14:13

 

Alonso was also 4th, 5th, 7th when he was in a worse car... the truth is that you cannot win a world title in a slow car and to be honest I can't even remember an instance when a driver won the title in the 2nd or 3rd best car on the grid.



#843 7MGTEsup

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 14:19

Exactly; Button isn't as good as Hamilton, Vettel isn't as good as his legend (or Ricciardo and Leclerc).

That's sort of the point.

(I still love your name)

 

That wasn't the point I was making.....



#844 Marklar

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 14:22

Alonso was also 4th, 5th, 7th when he was in a worse car... the truth is that you cannot win a world title in a slow car and to be honest I can't even remember an instance when a driver won the title in the 2nd or 3rd best car on the grid.

Rosberg 82, Prost 86, Schumacher 95 for example. Alonso nearly managed it twice as well.

That aside Vettel had argueably a car as good or better as the eventual winner the last two years.

#845 sopa

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 14:28

I dont think that you can track back every failure down on pressure. They can all deal with pressure to some extent, otherwise they would probably screw up Q3 every time. Usually it's more that contributes to a run like this (motivation, confidence, overdriving, etc.)

 

Perhaps you could say when unexpected pressure appears, that would be a differentiator. Under normal pressure yeah, little happens, because they are used to it in every qualifying, every race, every wheel-to-wheel battle. But then again it's all not obvious either, because sometimes mistakes are made by under too little pressure. Driver just kind of falls asleep and loses concentration, or whatever.



#846 AnttiK

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 14:44

Rosberg 82, Prost 86, Schumacher 95 for example. Alonso nearly managed it twice as well.

That aside Vettel had argueably a car as good or better as the eventual winner the last two years.

Highly debatable of course, but I would add Senna with McLaren in 1991 to that list as well. Williams had vastly superior pure speed, technology, Senna's H-pattern vs. Mansell's semi-auto etc... Then again you could make the argument that McLaren was better than Williams because especially early in the year Williams suffered from a ton of reliability problems. I guess you could make the same argument with Alonso in 2005 as well to an extent, McLaren seemed to be clearly the fastest car of the season...but then again you could say Renault was better because of reliability again.

But had Alonso managed it in 2012 it would have probably been by far the best example of a Championship won with a vastly inferior car all different factors considered. I mean even Keke in 1982 had the great reliability on his side against the turbos.


Edited by AnttiK, 12 September 2019 - 14:52.


#847 sopa

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 14:51

 I mean even Keke in 1982 had the great reliability on his side against the turbos.

 

Not to mention that he also competed for the full season, unlike Ferrari drivers.



#848 AnttiK

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 15:05

Not to mention that he also competed for the full season, unlike Ferrari drivers.

 

Correct. I think all in all Ferrari had the best car that year. Not necessarily the fastest, but by far the best reliability of all the turbos which at that time was really golden, given that the BMWs and Renaults were ridiculously fragile that year. Only problem was that no Ferrari driver competed more than 75% of the season. And well, the fact that the car ripped to pieces and was lethally dangerous in heavy frontal impacts...which can be said of most cars of that era tbh. Poor Paletti stood absolutely no chance either.
 
Actually I would also say Ferrari had clearly the best package in 1983 as well in terms of their car. Plenty of power (only BMW had more), reliability and speed. I'm pretty confident both Prost and Piquet would have pretty much walked the title with the 1983 Ferrari. Even Arnoux got pretty close. So yeah add Piquet's title in 1983 to the list...cheat rocket fuel or not.


#849 Calorus

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 15:15

That wasn't the point I was making.....

 

I think if the Ferrari were fitted with a BT46B's fan, Leclerc would still be faster - and that's the problem.

Let's just think of all of the teammates he's beaten consistently:

Liuzzi, Bourdais, Webber and Raikonnen.

 

And those who he hasn't:

Leclerc and Ricciardo.

 

He's slower than a third of his teammates, and few of those he's bested are considered greats.



#850 AustinF1

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 15:45

 

 

Wow, just wow.....

Yep. Remarkable prescience.