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What should Sebastian Vettel/Ferrari do?


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Poll: The future of Vettel at Ferrari... (415 member(s) have cast votes)

Sebastian Vettel should?

  1. Change teams (75 votes [18.07%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.07%

  2. Stick with Ferrari and hope things get better soon (122 votes [29.40%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.40%

  3. Call it a day, retire from the sport, and enjoy spending more time with his family (218 votes [52.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 52.53%

Ferrari should?

  1. Continue to have faith in Vettel (112 votes [26.99%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.99%

  2. Start looking at replacements (state who) (303 votes [73.01%])

    Percentage of vote: 73.01%

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#51 garoidb

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 17:48

The thing with Vettel is Ferrari are paying him a huge amount of cash to be the leader, the champion who will steer them back to glory. Except he's being shown up by his second year teammate who is hungry and very fast.

If Leclerc can keep evolving at this rate, he'll go into 2020 wanting to lead the team. And they'll have faith in the kid to do just that. He's that talented and intelligent, which is why they promoted him so quickly.

That being the case, where does it leave Seb? Sure he could stay (like say Piquet in his Benetton years) but he'd be on peanuts because they could replace him otherwise. His performances haven't justified his salary for a long while...

Would he want that? I doubt it. Yet I don't see many other options within F1 that would appeal to him.

Of course this is based off him not turning things around fast. You never know I guess.

 

I think Nelson did well out of that deal. Maybe that is Seb's plan, get an incentive based deal based on low expectations, and then win everything. :rotfl:



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#52 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 17:52

I think Nelson did well out of that deal. Maybe that is Seb's plan, get an incentive based deal based on low expectations, and then win everything. :rotfl:

Well sure why not? Perhaps Toto might be keen then? Lol

#53 prty

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 17:57

Much has been made about Sebastian Vettel's recent form.

 

He has always been clumsy in close racing though. His titles came when starting from pole and driving away with the fastest car. But already before Ferrari:

 



#54 shure

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 17:58

Vettel is a proven race and title winner and he is better than most of the grid. However, when you consider the high standards usually expected at Ferrari, there must be question marks over his value to the team now.

 

In the last year he has been very mistake prone in races and he is being beaten by his inexperienced team mate on a regular basis. This wasn't really a problem when he joined Ferrari. In 2017 he put together a credible title challenge and was doing so last year until Germany. Since then something has changed. He's not driving like the four time champion he is. If today's incident had been the only one then it's fair to say the forum is being reactionary. But the trend has been going on for a year now.

Just a few races ago he was very unlucky not to win.  I don't think there's any reason to question his value to the team.  And only last race he was faster than Leclerc and the only reason he didn't finish higher was due to a mechanical problem in qualifying.  I do think people tend to be a bit knee-jerk.



#55 Nonesuch

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 17:59

Build a better car. Calm down. Next year is Vettel's last at Ferrari, and probably his last in F1. No reason to change anything about it.

 

If they had sign Alonso by now, he would have already thrown his toys and moan on live broadcast about how Ferrari has an F2 car, putting the team to shame.

 

He wouldn't be wrong. This year's effort is shameful to Ferrari. They're now even worse than Honda.



#56 Eff1

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 17:59

Vettel definitely looks like someboy who needs a change, especially if Leclerc is going to take charge, which is not certain but a lot points to it.

I dont think that Ferrari has to get a rid of him, it's not like better drivers are on the market and so far the relationship between them is fine, although I would love to see more changes at the top teams. But they definitely should stop believing that he will magically become their next Schumacher. Leclerc definitely deserves a shot.

Personally I think they should stick together that one more year, especially since you dont know if the car will be capable to win the title next year and as you dont know how much better Leclerc would handle this situation, but if it's still bleak after this they should seperate.


Pretty much agree with this. Ferrari have found their next potential superstar already and slotted him in next to Vettel. Good move. If they wanted to replace Vettel, they would want either Hamilton or Verstappen in the team. I don’t think anyone else would be a significant improvement (speaking raw speed terms). The only other person on the market would be Ricciardo (if you want a better wheel to wheel racer). But I’m still not convinced (and neither were Ferrari clearly) that Ric would be a significant enough improvement over Vettel.

As for Vettel - he still has the pace of a top driver. That’s the most important thing. If Ferrari deliver a car that’s top of the pile, Vettel is a reliable pair of hands to get you pole and a lights to flag win. What Ferrari has delivered till now is not the package Vettel needs to beat Hamilton (I.e. something that’s more than just marginally quicker than a Merc every now and then).

On a side note - I notice the new gen racers like Leclerc and Verstappen are a little more audacious and unpredictable in wheel to wheel combat - Hamilton deals with this by giving them a wider berth. Vettel seems to want to make every effort to not be shaded by them. He needs to let it go sometimes and live to fight another day.

#57 noikeee

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:00

I really don't think Fernando was tired of F1, just tired of McLaren


I think he was partially tired of F1 but a great way to recover from being tired of something is not do it for a while.

#58 Nonesuch

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:02

I do think people tend to be a bit knee-jerk.

 

Nah, the Autosport forum has a thing for Vettel.

 

Imagine the glorious thread that could have been had Vettel been the one to meekly move over for Verstappen in Austria.

 

Or if the Ferrari was the dominant car and Leclerc had more poles than him and he was unable to overtake Leclerc even with the help of DRS.

 

:cool:



#59 PayasYouRace

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:03

Just a few races ago he was very unlucky not to win.  I don't think there's any reason to question his value to the team.  And only last race he was faster than Leclerc and the only reason he didn't finish higher was due to a mechanical problem in qualifying.  I do think people tend to be a bit knee-jerk.

 

Again, this isn't knee-jerk. It's a pattern that has been going on for about a year. I never said he was not fast, but how many points has he cost Ferrari through his own mistakes in the past 12 months?



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#60 shure

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:06

Again, this isn't knee-jerk. It's a pattern that has been going on for about a year. I never said he was not fast, but how many points has he cost Ferrari through his own mistakes in the past 12 months?

yeah he's not been faultless.   And today was dumb.   But that doesn't mean Ferrari should be looking to replace him, either.  On balance he brings more than he takes



#61 PayasYouRace

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:08

yeah he's not been faultless.   And today was dumb.   But that doesn't mean Ferrari should be looking to replace him, either.  On balance he brings more than he takes

 

Yeah, 123 to 120.



#62 pitlanepalpatine

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:09

I believe Vettel is showing signs of 'Ferrari fatigue'. The pressure on a driver in this team have always been greater than anywhere else, and it appears it is taking a toll on the German, who's been mistake-prone over the last two seasons or so. That doesn't mean that I think he's necessarily past his prime, but he needs to find a friendlier and less overtly political environment where to exercise his talent, be it in F1 or elsewhere.

 

Aye, Kimi seems happier since he left as well. Contrary to popular opinion I don't hate Lewis enough to want to see him at Ferrari, the environment doesn't suite him and going from a team that works on personal accountability to blame cultureville is a bad idea. I actually wouldn't mind seeing Max and Leclerc in Ferrari, the drama would be spectacular, something akin to Alonso/Lewis back in the day. Seb can go back to Red Bull. I'm pretty sure he'd be more appreciative of the team now in comparison.


Edited by pitlanepalpatine, 14 July 2019 - 18:11.


#63 wj_gibson

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:10

yeah he's not been faultless. And today was dumb. But that doesn't mean Ferrari should be looking to replace him, either. On balance he brings more than he takes


He’s a 4xWDC. He should be bringing *vastly* more than he takes. He certainly should not have the kind of accident record he has had for the last year. Otherwise you might as well stick one of a dozen drivers in there.

#64 JHSingo

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:10

He is under contract for 2020. It would be dumb not to see it through.

 

Ferrari are not going to hire Alonso again and pay another driver to not drive again.

 

A reminder that Kimi Raikkonen was also under contract for 2010. Sometimes contracts aren't worth the paper they're printed on.  ;)

 

Is history repeating itself? I can't see Ferrari wanting to have a huge pay off situation again, unless things deteriorate even further or they've got a real good chance of signing a Verstappen/Hamilton/Ricciardo/whoever imminently.

 

But I do feel like Vettel's in a vicious circle at the moment. The car's not good enough/to his liking, he's perhaps over-driving in some situations, and making mistakes as a result. Then those mistakes are effecting his confidence. It's difficult to see what he can do to get out of this. Maybe do a Hakkinen and announce a sabbatical?



#65 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:12

Nah, the Autosport forum has a thing for Vettel.

Imagine the glorious thread that could have been had Vettel been the one to meekly move over for Verstappen in Austria.

Not only is that last paragraph laughable... but I think your being too protective over Vettel. No one doubts he was a fine champion, but his last 12 months has been punctured by quite a few mistakes, cracking under pressure and a weakness exposed in combat, particularly against Hamilton.

Some posters might go too far sure, though many are just pointing out what's reality.

Today was another highlight of that.

#66 Marklar

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:13

Or if the Ferrari was the dominant car and Leclerc had more poles than him and he was unable to overtake Leclerc even with the help of DRS.

Except of the dominant car bit arent you exactly describing Vettel here?

 

Imagine the glorious thread that could have been had Vettel been the one to meekly move over for Verstappen in Austria.

Could open one for his glorious defence against Gasly today  :D

Edited by Marklar, 14 July 2019 - 18:16.


#67 SophieB

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:21

Only Vettel can say whether he thinks he has it in him to substantially reduce his error rates. I can’t tell if his failure to do so is because he can’t do that or whether frankly he’s just had enough of it all.

Either way, being dispassionate about the whole thing, Ferrari should probably cut their losses and try and get Hamilton or Verstappen. As a bonus, it destabilises the team they poach him from.

#68 Massa_f1

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:21

The funny thing is those that are calling for his retirement are probably the same ones that would criticize him for doing just that, claiming his running away from Charles etc.



#69 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:24

He should became 2nd Raikkonen. That position at Ferrari worked for Kimi for years, so why not for Seb?

Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 14 July 2019 - 18:24.


#70 Ramon69

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:24

He shouldn't retire, but he should do something to get better. Something is definitly wrong! You can say it happens when it's an isolated incident, but for him it happened way too often in the course of two seasons!



#71 TheGoldenStoffel

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:24

I think Leclerc is going to be top dog in the team now he's fully settled in and he's only getting stronger and stronger. Vettel is never going to play second fiddle to him so maybe it's better to just call it quits now.



#72 peggle

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:24

Well they can stick with Vettel and carry on to the detriment of the team-mate or show him the door and get someone who isn't going to bin the car on a regular basis, 



#73 wj_gibson

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:26

He shouldn't retire, but he should do something to get better. Something is definitly wrong! You can say it happens when it's an isolated incident, but for him it happened way too often in the course of two seasons!


But *what* is wrong?

There have been occasional allusions in the paddock to something or other that has been distracting him for a while, but *what*?

#74 screamingV16

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:28

But *what* is wrong?

There have been occasional allusions in the paddock to something or other that has been distracting him for a while, but *what*?

 

I think we can file along with 'purposely underperformed in 2014 to get out of Red Bull contract' theory.



#75 wj_gibson

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:30

I think we can file along with 'purposely underperformed in 2014 to get out of Red Bull contract' theory.


There were refs even on Sky last year to something that had apparently affected him, and it was implied that it was in his personal life, but no one seemed to want to be explicit.

#76 Ramon69

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:30

But *what* is wrong?

There have been occasional allusions in the paddock to something or other that has been distracting him for a while, but *what*?

I have no idea! He should be the one to figure that out and trying to fix it, he is the racing driver.



#77 NateF

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:32

There were refs even on Sky last year to something that had apparently affected him, and it was implied that it was in his personal life, but no one seemed to want to be explicit.


I always assumed the were alluding to the death of someone close to him, I think his grandfather was once mentioned on here but I am not sure how close to the truth it was.

#78 blacky

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:33

VET is still very quick, especially in the races, but makes too many mistakes, especially under pressure.

 

However LEC still has to learn a lot, it's good for him that VET is here. If he's quicker, people praise him, if he's slower, it's because VET is a 4 time WDC. Great situation, not too many pressure and he can carefully develop like he's currently doing. After 2020, if he's the great talent most of us believe, he can lead the team without the VET protection shield.



#79 Marklar

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:36

There were refs even on Sky last year to something that had apparently affected him, and it was implied that it was in his personal life, but no one seemed to want to be explicit.

There were rumours around the US GP that somebody in his family died recently, but that's something others have dealt with before.

In 2014 the rumour was that he had issues in his relationship with his back-then girlfriend (now wife) after their first daughter was born. Dont really remember it exactly, but if memory serves me right some tabloids had to take back stories related to that.

I dont really think that this is cutting it though. In the end your personal life shouldnt have much impact on your profession, at least not in the long term.
 

I always assumed the were alluding to the death of someone close to him, I think his grandfather was once mentioned on here but I am not sure how close to the truth it was.

I think the grandfather was about Lewis Hamilton, who happened to have his grandfather die in the week before he won the title (so around the same time this rumour about Vettel came up). Dont remember that anyone went into detail wrt Vettel.

Edited by Marklar, 14 July 2019 - 18:37.


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#80 Balnazzard

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:42

Vettel is done, he already made far too many mistakes in 2017 and 2018 and this year he doesnt have the kind of edge over Leclerc that would justify his high paygrade and stay on the team beyond 2020.

If Vettel would not retire, I quess I would perhaps like to see him again in Red Bull, but get someone else to that Ferrari seat. Verstappen vs Leclerc in the same team would sure be amazing :D Then again perhaps not cause the team would order them to stop fighting like they have done in last 2 races.



#81 Hela

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:43

For $40 odd million he's being paid, the errors are a bit too much



#82 SenorSjon

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:51

Not to mention the team orders favoring him. Without it, Leclerc was chasing Verstappen in the standings.



#83 Pascal

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:51

Mick is nowhere near as talented as Leclerc is, he will need the next F2 season and then a couple of years at Alfa/Haas before they can even think about promoting him.


I don't believe Mick is as talented as Leclerc either, but Ferrari is obviously eager to see him end up in one of its cars. Would it happen next season? Probably not, and I suspect that they originally thought about retaining their current duo unchanged for at least another couple of years. But if Vettel continues to self-destruct they will have to come up with a replacement sooner than later. And rather than trying to poach someone currently attached to another constructor, the temptation might exist to reignite the Schumi legend earlier than planned. And I believe this prospect will prove especially enticing if Leclerc stars winning races this current season.

#84 Balnazzard

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:52

Something needs to change. Vettel is still fast so I don't want him to retire (even tough I don't like the guy) but his dream to be a Ferrari driver is slowly turning into a little nightmare. Maybe go back to RB? 

 

Ferrari? They should call Alonso (or Hamilton if they can get him). Maybe Ricciardo if he is available. 

I don't think guys like Bottas or Ocon would be a worthy replacement. If people are not happy with Vettel, they won't be happy with lesser drivers (after comparing him with Hülkenberg, I'm not even sure if Ric would be a step up). 

 

Bring Alonso back...at least he would show how good Leclerc really is. 

Ye just drop the Alonso card already.....I think all of the top teams have clearly stated they have no interest in Alonso. You reap what you sow and Alonso has burned down too many bridges behind him. 



#85 Whatisvalis

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:57

For $40 odd million he's being paid, the errors are a bit too much

 

This sums it up pretty much, with $40mil and 4 world championships you expect more. Vet is a great driver and champion going through a tough spell - we've seen it with Hamilton in 2011. What he does I have no idea, but a change in environment at the end of next year could be a logical move.



#86 kosmos

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:57

Knowing Ferrari, I won't be surprised if they extend his contract around Monza.

Retiring now will put his legacy in a bad light, even worse than what it is now. I'm sure Vettel is aware of it and cares about it.

#87 Cirio

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 18:58

Maybe a sports psychologist would help? It's quite common in other sports.



#88 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 19:03

He should slither away into retirement and pretend it is because he is unimpressed with the 2021 rules package.

Like he has already hinted at?

#89 William Hunt

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 19:04

People often seem to forget that Vettel is a 4 time world champion and still not that old (32), especially when compared to Kimi's age (or even Alonso), there isn't much better choice around on the market as Vettel, he's still a world class driver
Like in the Alonso-Ferrari era the problem is not the driver(s) but the car, the strategy and team organisation


Edited by William Hunt, 14 July 2019 - 19:05.


#90 JHSingo

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 19:05

Maybe a sports psychologist would help? It's quite common in other sports.

 

The other thing I thought about, I wonder if Vettel does any sim racing, like Verstappen and Norris still do quite regularly?

 

Maybe just something like that would help him gain a bit more confidence in wheel-to-wheel situations, without it being so much in the public eye. Something like that must help in "keeping your eye in", so to speak.



#91 masa90

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 19:07

Ferrari seems like a tough place for #1 driver. You have to win. No matter what kind of car you drive, you need to win. Otherwise the fans and athmosphere turns against you.

 

During my watching, only Schumacher is an exception. Maybe there is something in there which prevents people from achieving their very best ??

 

Oh well, but when you win in a Ferrari it seems to be worth it.



#92 PayasYouRace

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 19:07

People often seem to forget that Vettel is a 4 time world champion and still not that old (32), especially when compared to Kimi's age (or even Alonso), there isn't much better choice around on the market as Vettel, he's still a world class driver
Like in the Alonso-Ferrari era the problem is not the driver(s) but the car, the strategy and team organisation

 

He's not driving like a 4 time champion. He's driving more like a 4 time race starter at times.



#93 McLaren1702

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 19:10

I've voted for Sebastian to look for another team and Ferrari to start looking for a replacement.

Sebastian: he frustrated me a lot after taking away those championships right under Fernando's nose so he's always been 'the enemy' or 'the rival' in my eyes. Nevertheless, enemies or rivals also have to be respected and you don't want to see a 4-time champion go out like this. Vettel's always been more prone to pressure (a good example of this is Canada 2011, counterexample Brazil 2012), but perhaps the pressure and need to perform in a Ferrari has gotten to him, that's why he might be happy to take another seat and give it a (final?) go. Red Bull seem to be on the up and he still has connections there. Some might argue that Verstappen would easily destroy him but that's just speculation in my eyes. He's a fierce competitor and might find his earlier performance back. On the other hand, I'm sure he could also find a place in the midfield like Kimi and race for fun. A swansong while outperforming a car in a highly competitive midfield is better than leaving Ferrari like this.

Ferrari: as polarising as it might be (people seem very keen on saying 'shouldn't happen' or 'should happen'), I'd love to see Fernando come back. Hear me out: he came back to McLaren in 2015 because there was 'unfinished business' there. That might've been just PR talk, but I believe the real unfinished business is at Ferrari. 2010 and 2012 are the most recent championship challenges for Ferrari too. Ferrari probably won't put an inexperienced driver next to Charles. Max and Daniel are locked down at RBR and Renault respectively. Fernando and Charles seem to get along pretty well, with Fernando openly supporting Charles (see Bahrain 2019), and Charles saying he learnt a lot from Fernando in 2018. On top of that, the only time since 1995 that they didn't have a WDC driver as one of their drivers was in 2007! And in that year Kimi also became one. If Ferrari believe Fernando can bring the extra performance, and I believe he's still mostly on his A-game, they should take him. Nothing gained, nothing lost. However, if they manage to win a WDC together, it'd be a fairy tale ending to the earlier Ferrari years.



#94 JustNotFastEnough

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 19:12

  • Hamilton to Ferrari
  • Max to Mercedes
  • Vettel to Red Bull


#95 P123

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 19:16

Vettel has enough money to do whatever he wants. For him I think the biggest downer would be that Ferrari were on the up, but haven't delivered on initial promise this season. And now he has Leclerc as a teammate, so an additional headache.

Too many errors? I think they've always been there, maybe just glossed over slightly by winning 4 WDC on the trot, two (definitely one) of which should have been easier than they turned out to be.

#96 garoidb

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 19:20

 

  • Hamilton to Ferrari
  • Max to Mercedes
  • Vettel to Red Bull

 

 

 

Vettel at Red Bull could be along the lines of Coulthard's role there. If they lose Max they will have to go outside their current pipeline, and who better than one of the original graduates and their only champion? Another option would be Ricciardo, of course, but the history is not the same. 



#97 J2NH

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 19:21

Vettel should call it a day.

 

Ferrari should go for, in descending order, Hamilton, Ricciardo, and Verstappen.

 

And I reckon Ricciardo is the most likely.

 

 

Agree, although I don't think any of the drivers are a possibility.  

 

Hamilton and Mercedes seem too content to end the marriage.

 

Verstappen the same at Red Bull and why not now that RB/Honda are getting the measure of Ferrari?  RB/Honda has potential, Ferrari has drama and politics.

 

I can't see Renault giving up Ricciardo easily.  They are in this to win and giving up their best driver is a no-go.  Only chance is if Danial has a get out clause.

 

Vettle or nothing for at least the next year.  



#98 Retrofly

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 19:23

I think see how the rest of the season pans out, if he keeps going backwards then yeah should probably call it a day. I dont think its enough to call it right now, but at the moment he's not very reliable.



#99 TomNokoe

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 19:25

Man, this is such a difficult question. I really like Vettel, and I’ve come to respect his driving and achievements. Today was his lowest point. It was totally amateurish. It was embarrassing.

I disagree and dislike posters who refer to Vettel as “done” or “finished”. I think it’s wide of the mark and disrespectful. He still has plenty to give the sport, and F1 would be much worse without him. He is a legend, like it or not.

Firstly, all of these incidents over the past 2 years... they aren’t isolated and I think this is important to understand. So many people say “another mistake from Vettel”, “another”, “yep, there’s another”, but it instead this all feels like one big event. Something is going on and he cannot personally resolve it. I think it’s far too complex for us to speculate. I cannot imagine stresses he must face daily.

He has so much to battle - the pressures at Ferrari, his ongoing race-craft dynamic vs Hamilton and Verstappen, the image of him making further mistakes... it’s tough.

My main takeaway from his Red Bull days was the synergy between team and driver. Red Bull built a car for Vettel. Vettel grew around that style. It was perfection. He no longer has that luxury, almost as if he is just another driver. Again, there is a lot of external/internal pressure and surely huge trust issues between parties.

All of this culminates in frustration and desperation on track. I think to a degree Vettel isn’t motivated because he can’t fight for a WDC, but this isn’t a good enough excuse.

I feel very sorry for him and sincerely hope he wins the next race, or the one after that ... until something resets within him.

Failing that, go back to Red Bull and let Ferrari sort their own mess out.

Edited by TomNokoe, 14 July 2019 - 19:26.


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#100 RedRabbit

RedRabbit
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Posted 14 July 2019 - 19:32

DTM