29 replies to this topic

[Michael Ferner]

1897 - Dec 05: Bob Robinson USA(NY→FL) d. 27 Jul 1930 (age 32)

Reinhard, can you check on Bob Robinson again, because I have reason to believe you got the wrong man. The newspaper trail makes it clear that the racing driver was from Nevada, a small town in Western Missouri, about an hour south of Kansas City, moving to Salerno on the East coast of Florida (a good 100 miles north of Miami) in the spring of 1925 after marrying, presumably a local girl (from Salerno). Also, of the two ages reported in articles about his fatal accident, the higher one appears to be correct, i.e. he was 35 rather than 32.

[Richard Jenkins]

Hi Michael
See my correspondence with you on ORC

[Michael Ferner]

Thanks, but I need something more than just "because I'm right", especially since you've been wrong so many tmes before.

[Vitesse2]

 

https://www.findagra...orial/127136712

[Richard Jenkins]

That's what I put on the ORC forum and have spent this morning pointing out to him. Michael, if the man's gravestone is not enough proof over a newspaper report, then why bother doing any researching any more?

This one though is case closed, surely or is it his birth you are querying .
I have always tried my best with the information given at the time and have always apologised if I have made a mistake. Researching is a very difficult thing to do when there aren't many people or resources out there.
I apologise I do not meet your expectations.

Edited by Richard Jenkins, 20 July 2019 - 14:09.

[ReWind]

Reinhard, can you check on Bob Robinson again...

 

Sorry, Michael, I will not join in the brawl. (Couldn't say anything more than the two Richards anyway.)

[Michael Ferner]

Thanks, Richard, but when I ask Mr. Google about Bob Robinson, I get 180 million hits, and another 500 million or so when I try Robert Robinson or Robert Edward Robinson. That's far too many to exclude a name coincidence. Especially, when this guy was born in New York City and there is absolutely no connection of the racing driver to NYC. In fact, I find it far more likely that another man with the same name died on the same day, than someone from NYC moving to the middle of nowhere, without any hint of the famous birth place ever getting mentioned. I also struggle to see why Robinson (the racing driver) should be buried in Jacksonville when he lived several hundred miles away.

[Michael Ferner]

, if the man's gravestone is not enough proof over a newspaper report,

But, is it the man's gravestone? And sorry, but it's not "a newspaper report", it's hundreds.

[Vitesse2]

I've also found him on the 1930 census as Robert Robinson. Not in Port Salerno, but in Enterprise, in Volusia County. Occupation listed as 'Professional racer, auto'. Industry: garage. His wife was originally from Alabama and they had a two-year-old son.

 

And he was black ...

[Richard Jenkins]

Could it be that there are two (or three) racing BR's and the info is getting mixed up?
Then we can delve into the gravestone man. I'm sure I worked backwards from the gravestone but I can check birth info again for grave man to decide if he is BR or non BR.

[Jim Thurman]

Where was our Bob Robinson residing at the time of his death at Woodbridge? Have any newspapers accounts or obituaries mentioned where he was to be buried? Has the most local source been checked?

[Jim Thurman]

...though, I've seen published reports on a driver being buried in one cemetery, and then turning out to be in another. As you all know, Kelly Petillo is buried in Grindstone, California, near an Indian Rancheria, nearly 500 miles from where he lived most of his life, and where he died*

 

I'm utterly perplexed as to how Grindstone, California could even come up. It seems born from hallucination.

 

For that matter, I'm still trying to figure out exactly where Eddie Hearne lies.

 

*for the record, Kelly Petillo is buried in Redondo Beach, California, which makes perfect sense. Grindstone??? 

Edited by Jim Thurman, 20 July 2019 - 16:38.

[Allen Brown]

It doesn't help when The Central New Jersey News report on the accident is indexed by newspaper.com as 27 July 1930 but is clearly the Monday afternoon edition for 28 July 1930!  

 

The report describes him as being from Benson Springs, Florida, which was a short-lived name of Enterprise, Florida (source) but the reason I stick my nose in is that there is a picture, and he doesn't look very black to me.  His unnamed wife was present, as was his three-year-old son Buddy.  That matches the 1930 census very well, which shows him as born in Missouri, with a wife born in Alabama and the son (Robert E) born in Florida.  The census gives his age as 33, and yes, his race is given as "Neg".  His wife's name is illegible.  When you turn to page 32 of the same newspaper report, it says he was in the process of moving his home to Langhorne, PA.  It also says that Robinson was the "known as the greatest dirt track racer in the world", yet make no mention of his colour.    

 

It does seem remarkable that two Bob Robinsons could die the very same day and both have a connection to Florida.

 

I looked in the 1920 census, but the only Missouri-born person I could find with a mechanic/garage connection who was the right age was living in Nebraska.  And was white...  The earliest newspaper mention I could find of a prominent dirt track racer called Bob Robinson described him as coming from Nevada, Missouri and said he'd sprung to fame in 1920 (source).  The 1920 Census does show one Bob Robinson living in Nevada, MO, and although he's white and a labourer on the Steam Railroad, his father - rather intriguing - is a Chauffeur in the Truck industry (source).  

 

I take my hat off to anyone who can figure out biographical details with this sort of data to work with!

[Michael Ferner]

Bob Robinson lived in Benson Springs/FL (sometimes also listed under Daytona Beach which is the next bigger town/city nearby), which is a good two hours drive from Jacksonville, probably longer than that in those days. It was said that he also lived in Lanhorne/PA during the racing season, probably in a rented apartment.

There is one entry for a Bob Robinson of Jacksonville/FL in an independent race at Tampa/FL on May 30, 1928, at a time when "the" Bob Robinson was already racing AAA for a full year, so it can't really have been him, unless it was a "fake entry" for PR reasons. My results for these races are very poor, mentioning only seven drivers, not including BR, but yes, it is very possible that there was another Bob Robinson racing during the same time. It is also not unknown for local drivers to assume the names of nationally known ones to attract attention, like Bob Burman or Barney Oldfield, even Bill Endicott. It's a minefield!



EDIT: Allen wrote his post while I was composing mine - the famous Bob Robinson dying at Woodbridge was definitely caucasian, his real name was most likely Robert Edward Robinson, and he grew up in Missouri, although it's not clear whether he was born there. He definitely moved to Florida (initially Salerno) in 1925 and lived there the rest of his days, except for his racing trips of course which saw him race up and down the East coast for most of the summer. And yes, he seems to have started racing in 1920, and I have his first win in 1921, at Saint Louis in Missouri.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 20 July 2019 - 18:38.

[Vitesse2]

It doesn't help when The Central New Jersey News report on the accident is indexed by newspaper.com as 27 July 1930 but is clearly the Monday afternoon edition for 28 July 1930!  

 

The report describes him as being from Benson Springs, Florida, which was a short-lived name of Enterprise, Florida (source) but the reason I stick my nose in is that there is a picture, and he doesn't look very black to me.  His unnamed wife was present, as was his three-year-old son Buddy.  That matches the 1930 census very well, which shows him as born in Missouri, with a wife born in Alabama and the son (Robert E) born in Florida.  The census gives his age as 33, and yes, his race is given as "Neg".

The 1930 census didn't recognise 'shades of grey' on race. So, to use a now un-PC term he might have actually been informally classified as a 'mulatto', which would have appeared as such on the 1920 census. And all his neighbours are also shown as 'Neg', so we're presumably looking at someone who lived in a segregated area.

 

As for 'looking black' - the Wiki article on Mulatto actually illustrates some 19th century 'people of color'. Messrs Pinchback and Cuney certainly don't 'look black'.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulatto

[Richard Jenkins]

Working through Ancestry,

The Bob Robinson 1897-1930, the same cemetry photo comes up but with 

Member Photo Photo Info Description Attached To 002 (Portrait) Location: Oaklawn Cemetery, Jacksonville,FL

Professional Race Car Driver. Died due to injuries sustained in a racing incident

Bob Robinson (born 1897)

 

Also on Ancestry, there is a family tree which includes BR. This BR was married to Jimmy Odelle"Jo" Gentry but that doesn't really help much in terms of finding out if she was from Alabama.

 

However... in the 1930 census as mentioned above, we find that Robert Robinson married to Jimme O Robinson.

 

I do firmly believe that the 1897-1930 man in the Oaklawn cemetry is our man. There are obvious questions regards

 

1) Jacksonville

2) race

 

but Missouri fits (I will change this as although there must've been a reason why NY was put, I can't now trace it back), auto racer fits, dates fit, wife fits etc. etc. 

 

Let's put it this way, I think the question is now to prove it's NOT the grave man (who we can accept came from Missouri now). It does seem to fit 

Edited by Richard Jenkins, 20 July 2019 - 21:08.

[Allen Brown]

I wrote this before I saw Richard's post 16 above.

 

I take Vitesse's point about 'mulatto', but in America around 1930 you were either white or you were not white.  This picture lifted from Wikipedia is preserved from Florida in 1928:

https://en.wikipedia...pot_doors01.jpg

 

This was an era of segregation, especially in Florida (source) and I am genuinely perplexed why a man who was legally not-white (assuming a mistake was not made in the 1930 census) could have been racing with "white folk".  Given that in the 1930 census he had a black family living one side of him and a white family the other, I am inclined to believe a mistake was made - although I do appreciate that when you start assuming mistakes in a census, you're on thin ice.

 

The 1930 census entry that Vitesse2 found and I quoted above must surely be the guy that died at Woodbridge.  That connects him to being born in Missouri, which connects to the biographical detail Michael has given.  I would offer the son of a chauffeur in Nevada, MO in 1920 as highly plausible, but it would take more to resolve.  I think I found that family in 1910 as well (source) and even 1900 (source) when Robert L was nine months old, born August 1899.  I'm taking this wild goose chase as far as it will go!  Here is his parents' marriage cert. Pity birth records for Missouri in 1899 are so incomplete.

Edited by Allen Brown, 20 July 2019 - 20:48.

[Allen Brown]

Good find on Jimmy Odelle "Jo" Gentry.  The family trees constructed for her on ancestry show that she was buried in Oaklawn Cemetery, Jacksonville,FL, the same place her first husband was buried.  They are even together, on Section E row 5.  That surely clinches it for the gravestone.

 

Her colour is harder to determine, as she's white in Alabama in the 1920 census (source).
 

Edited by Allen Brown, 20 July 2019 - 21:04.

[Jim Thurman]

Bob Robinson lived in Benson Springs/FL (sometimes also listed under Daytona Beach which is the next bigger town/city nearby), which is a good two hours drive from Jacksonville, probably longer than that in those days. It was said that he also lived in Lanhorne/PA during the racing season, probably in a rented apartment.

There is one entry for a Bob Robinson of Jacksonville/FL in an independent race at Tampa/FL on May 30, 1928, at a time when "the" Bob Robinson was already racing AAA for a full year, so it can't really have been him, unless it was a "fake entry" for PR reasons. My results for these races are very poor, mentioning only seven drivers, not including BR, but yes, it is very possible that there was another Bob Robinson racing during the same time. It is also not unknown for local drivers to assume the names of nationally known ones to attract attention, like Bob Burman or Barney Oldfield, even Bill Endicott. It's a minefield!



EDIT: Allen wrote his post while I was composing mine - the famous Bob Robinson dying at Woodbridge was definitely caucasian, his real name was most likely Robert Edward Robinson, and he grew up in Missouri, although it's not clear whether he was born there. He definitely moved to Florida (initially Salerno) in 1925 and lived there the rest of his days, except for his racing trips of course which saw him race up and down the East coast for most of the summer. And yes, he seems to have started racing in 1920, and I have his first win in 1921, at Saint Louis in Missouri.

 

Thanks, Michael. So, I'd say check the Jacksonville, Sanford or Deland newspapers.

[Jim Thurman]

Allen, I've seen errors in the Census, on other official documents such as death certificates, and even on grave markers, so...I don't know that any one thing is a guaranteed certainty. The Census does miss folks, and can only go by what is provided (for example, the father of one driver gave a different age and state of birth in each Census!)

 

I've also turned up racers buried far away from their hometown or residence, in a place with no obvious connection. There have been relocations from one cemetery to another...you name it, I've probably run across it.

 

Michael, why did you presume that there was no way the Bob Robinson in Jacksonville was the racing Bob Robinson? Ages reported in newspapers often are off a bit, plus there's that bit about racers (and promoters) fudging on them.

[Michael Ferner]

I realize I may be sending you all out on a wild goose chase, and apologies if I do, but I've developed a sixth sense about newspaper reports. I've gone through hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of newspaper articles the last ten years, I can smell the BS dripping with my eyes closed, but I can also sense when an article is genuine information, based on facts gained through actual first-person interaction. There's no question in my mind that this article (The Daily Times of Wilson/NC, Oct 21, 1925, p4) was written after personal interrogation with the driver, and there are two things that stand out:

[quote]Wild Bob (...) is a comparatively young man just past his thirtieth birthday... [/quote]

No chance of a typo here, and very little chance of mishearing the info in this specific way. Sure, the reporter didn't ask for a look at a birth certificate, or other official document, but why would Robinson lie about his age? Racing drivers don't make themselves older unless they are too young to compete, in fact he's at an age when drivers on their way up are far more likely to make themselves younger (like Gilles Villeneuve, or Nigel Mansell even in much more modern times). Why would a twenty-seven-year old driver with a career ahead of him say he's "just past his thirtieth birthday"?

[quote](...) this spring he annexed a bride, which accounts for his new hailing place, Salerno, Florida.[/quote}

This, to me, sounds very much like he moved to where his bride lived, he even named his racing car the "Salerno Special". My hope was that this bride would make it more easy to track down the "real" Bob Robinson, but apparently it doesn't. This is all very confusing, but I still believe the guy on the gravestone is too young, and if he was born in NYC he doesn't fit the racing driver bio at all.

Jim, I checked the local papers as far as they are available, with no luck. I think it could be possible also that he was buried in or around Langhorne, even New Jersey. Or in Missouri. Yes, I suppose it's also possible that he was buried in Jacksonville, I really don't know. It's mostly the age thing that makes me think we have the wrong man.

[Allen Brown]

MIchael, are you not convinced by the 1930 census entry for him in Benson Springs listing him as a professional auto driver?  That gives us his wife's name, "Jimmi", and that very same woman has a memorial stone in exactly the same place as the one Richard has posted.  Her second husband Bert Busbee and Bob Snr's young child Bob also have stones in the same place.  Now it's true that they are only memorial stones, not gravestones, so we cannot know when they were laid or who laid them, and what information they were working from when they had them engraved.  If they were only laid after Jimmy Odelle died in 1978, then they may have dates of birth wrong, but I find it hard to believe that stone does not refer to your driver.  

[Michael Ferner]

This is were I am getting confused: Richard A. says he found a man in the 1930 census, right place, right occupation, wife from Alabama (disappointing that she's not from Salerno, but hey...), wrong race. Difficult to assume this is not our man, so perhaps a small mistake in the census? Then you join in with a mixed post about news reports and census, and if I get it right you have found a BR in the 1930 census, born in MO, with a wife born in AL and her name illegible, son born in FL, two years older than the gravestone BR and also the wrong race - that would make it two mistakes in the census? And, is that the same person Richard A. found?

Then, Richard J. joins in and mentions a family tree, naming the wife of (yet another?) BR, and a 1930 census entry with the same wife's name - can't be the same census entry that you found, since you said the wife's name was illegible!?! Then you join in again and declare that you have found families in the 1900, '10 and '20 censuses which match the 1930 entry that you and Richard A. quoted (is it really the same?), yet according to this BR is two years younger than the gravestone BR. And then, you come forward with the family tree of the wife mentioned in Richard J.'s post, matching it (very well) to the gravestone BR.

Are we really talking about one person here? Two?? Three??? Can each one of you post here exactly what's in the census report that you have found?

Another thought: what if the census people made their rounds while Bob was racing in the Northeast, i.e. he wasn't at home? Maybe we should be looking into a census for Langhorne/PA?

Edited by Michael Ferner, 21 July 2019 - 11:27.

[Vitesse2]

The 1930 census form. Line 87. His wife's name is transcribed on Ancestry as 'Jimmie O Robinson'.

 

[Allen Brown]

The 1930 census form. Line 87. His wife's name is transcribed on Ancestry as 'Jimmie O Robinson'.

 

 

Precisely.  And I could not read that.  It looked like "Jimmi", which I didn't think could possibly be right.  Who calls their daughter Jimmi?!  But when you combine it with the family tree on ancestry.com, that's actually her name.  The family tree appears to have been put together by a niece or great niece and has a picture of Jimmi, so I am inclined to take it seriously.  

 

So yes Michael, it is the same census entry.  It also says he's a professional auto driver, but again I found that difficult to read.  It's in the town that the newspaper reports of his death said he lived in, he has a son the right age and it says he was born in Missouri.  Still unwilling to accept it?

 

As to the entries in 1920, 1910 and 1900, I was very precise in my language.  I did not "declare that [I] have found", but said "I would offer ... as highly plausible".  If you find a bio saying Bob Robinson used to work on the railway or that his father drove trucks, they could be useful.  But they lead to a different date of birth than on the memorial stone so could well be wrong.

Edited by Allen Brown, 21 July 2019 - 12:25.

[Michael Ferner]

Thanks, gents, and apologies for wasting your valuable time!

It is hard to read in places, but I can see enough to understand that this man in the census must be the racing driver who died at Woodbridge, and that the man on the Jacksonville cemetery must be the same one beyond all reasonable doubt. I still reserve the right to remain sceptical about the birth date on the stone, as I think Allen is right in bringing up the possibility of a placement many years after the burial, but it's the best we've got at this moment, so all's well. I take solace in the fact that one of Allen's links led me to a race that I didn't have in my records so far, so all was not in vain for me - hope y'all find something worthwhile in this effort as well, otherwise I beg your pardon, and appreciate your indulgence!

 

 

Oh, and Allen: sorry for the unfortunate choice of words - "declare" - you were, indeed, very precise, and your "highly plausible" evidence is very much appreciated.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 21 July 2019 - 12:55.

[Michael Ferner]

A bit of fun about "the real (?) Bob Robinson"...

 

https://www.newspape.../clip/34085246/

 

 

Walter "Sam" Purvis was a leading Florida driver from Jacksonville, active ca. 1923 - '36; Floyd (or: Lloyd) "Shorty" Gingrich another from Tampa, though originally apparently from Lansing/Michigan, active ca. 1925 - '34; the Scootis Special #7 was a Chevrolet racing car active ca. 1926 - '36 mostly in the South. And, like earlier mentioned, I don't think it was the "real" Bob Robinson competing, but who knows?

[Jim Thurman]

More importantly Michael, how are you progressing on sorting out the drivers named Herb Hill?   

[Michael Ferner]

Not so difficult: the one from Stockton/CA disappears from my records a full 17 months before the one from the Chicago suburb makes his first appearance.

[Jim Thurman]

Not so difficult: the one from Stockton/CA disappears from my records a full 17 months before the one from the Chicago suburb makes his first appearance.

 

Sure, the Illinois one and the Northern California one are different, but what about the Las Vegas NV Herb Hill? Was that the Stockton CA fellow relocated? And was the Herb Hill in ARA the same fellow both pre and post-WWII? Was he based in Southern California for a while as well?

 

EDIT: Worthy of its own separate thread?

Edited by Jim Thurman, 22 July 2019 - 00:59.