182 replies to this topic

[Kalmake]

Another approach is to just say that increasing sales is success as that is the main goal of taking part. This is very objective, but hard to measure for sure.

[Branislav]

I just noticed, Honda took both pole (F1 and MotoGP) today.

[Sterzo]

...and oh so nearly took both wins.

[Branislav]

Unbelievable Mercedes power.

[Jim Thurman]

I think counting both NASCAR and IndyCar may take it a bit too far. It would sway the statistics too much in favour of American manufacturers. So we need a compromise. Count only one of them, or count both as a x0.5 compared to world championship events.

 

  Yeah, American racing never counts...or there's always someone finding a way/reason why it shouldn't or doesn't.

 

Indycar would likely swing things in favour of British, Italian and Japanese manufacturers too.

 

^ This sums it up. There would be more wins for Peugeot than for some U.S. manufacturers. Though counting from the beginning years would place manufacturers like Marmon and National on the list, and give a few more wins to Buick 

[PayasYouRace]

 

^ This sums it up. There would be more wins for Peugeot than for some U.S. manufacturers. Though counting from the beginning years would place manufacturers like Marmon and National on the list, and give a few more wins to Buick 

 

I'd be interested to see how the number of wins for March, Lola, Reynard, Penske (built in the UK, remember), Dallara, Honda, Cosworth, Toyota, Ilmor, etc compare to homegrown manufacturers at Indy and its associated series.

[Jim Thurman]

I'd be interested to see how the number of wins for March, Lola, Reynard, Penske (built in the UK, remember), Dallara, Honda, Cosworth, Toyota, Ilmor, etc compare to homegrown manufacturers at Indy and its associated series.

 

I don't have time to compile right now, but I agree, it would be interesting to see the tallies. Just engines alone, after the domination by Offenhauser (an engine specialist, so do they count?), I agree with you and think it would skew heavily to non-U.S. manufacturers aside from some Ford, Chevrolet and Oldsmobile wins. That's not even taking into account badging situations, of which there have been several of.

[Collombin]

Champcarstats is far from perfect (Mario Andretti 1974 national champion anyone?) but does have ranked lists of wins and entries of chassis and engines.

[PayasYouRace]

I don't have time to compile right now, but I agree, it would be interesting to see the tallies. Just engines alone, after the domination by Offenhauser (an engine specialist, so do they count?), I agree with you and think it would skew heavily to non-U.S. manufacturers aside from some Ford, Chevrolet and Oldsmobile wins. That's not even taking into account badging situations, of which there have been several of.

 

I don't see why we would exclude Offy, when so much success has come from specialist builders including Cosworth and Ilmor. Miller built his own engines, didn't he?

[Murl]

 

Setting a standard for most success in Motorsport should completely ignore number of wins, and go by actual impact through their brand.

 

Ferrari are unequaled in their success.

 

 

Mercedes kicks Ferrari arse in this context. 

 

As has been said, if not for Le Mans 1955, who can say what the shape of motorsport would be in the 20th century.

For now, we can say that Mercedes play to win, and they do win.

 

 

[Jim Thurman]

I don't see why we would exclude Offy, when so much success has come from specialist builders including Cosworth and Ilmor. Miller built his own engines, didn't he?

 

I didn't know whether the OP wanted solely auto/bike manufacturers (e.g. Honda, Mercedes, Yamaha, Ford) or to allow/include specialist builders. But, since Offenhauser was American, there's bound to be a reason to exclude them 

[Jim Thurman]

Champcarstats is far from perfect (Mario Andretti 1974 national champion anyone?) but does have ranked lists of wins and entries of chassis and engines.

 

D'oh! I thought the site had compiled those lists, but I wasn't certain.

 

http://www.champcars.../enginefull.htm

 

http://www.champcars...chassisfull.htm

 

See, the borderline xenophobic worries that including just the top two U.S. series ( ) would skew the numbers proves untrue. Big bad ol' America doesn't overrun it all like an invading hoarde. For example, adding in Buick and Oldsmobile wins in NASCAR, it's truly not that much for manufacturers/badges of those two. Obviously, there's a lot more to U.S. racing than just NASCAR and Indycar.

 

Now, if counting all motorsports, as the OP suggested, U.S. short oval racing would skew it heavily to Chevrolet, as Chevrolet engines have utterly dominated U.S. short track racing, of which there has likely been more than most other racing combined. I realize that's a "hot take", but the vast amount of it that has taken place (and still takes place) seems utterly unknown and grossly underestimated by many outside of the U.S., and by those in the U.S. that only know of road racing and top level series   For that matter, Chevrolet engines tallies in short oval racing on other continents would also greatly inflate their total.

[PayasYouRace]

I didn't know whether the OP wanted solely auto/bike manufacturers (e.g. Honda, Mercedes, Yamaha, Ford) or to allow/include specialist builders. But, since Offenhauser was American, there's bound to be a reason to exclude them 

 

The OP wasn't excluding Americans. They're a massive NASCAR fan after all. It was whether purely national championships should count.

[Branislav]

I just heard in documentary I was watching about Honda that Honda is I quote:

 

"In the world of motorsports Honda has the greatest number of victories in all disciplines".

[Jim Thurman]

The OP wasn't excluding Americans. They're a massive NASCAR fan after all. It was whether purely national championships should count.

 

I know he wasn't, and I know Branislav is a big NASCAR fan (and particularly a huge Keselowski fan). Did he specify whether it was solely international series, or "all" series?    I don't think he'd mind counting NASCAR 

 

No, it was in reference to this... 

 

I think counting both NASCAR and IndyCar may take it a bit too far. It would sway the statistics too much in favour of American manufacturers. So we need a compromise. Count only one of them, or count both as a x0.5 compared to world championship events.

 

...which as you pointed out for Indycar, which I agreed with, isn't even true. It's proven by the compiled list(s). Yes, NASCAR would be overwhelmingly American manufacturers, save for the Toyota wins and that renegade Jaguar victory, but they likely wouldn't sway much on a worldwide list aside from adding a lot to Ford. But, not Indycar. Even juggernauts like Offenhauser would pale compared to others on the list (though Offenhauser dominated midget and sprint car racing for years as well, which would drastically add to their total).

[Branislav]

I know he wasn't, and I know Branislav is a big NASCAR fan (and particularly a huge Keselowski fan). Did he specify whether it was solely international series, or "all" series?    I don't think he'd mind counting NASCAR 

 

Would you mind japanese Super Formula where's Honda been dominant?

[Jim Thurman]

Would you mind japanese Super Formula where's Honda been dominant?

 

I wouldn't mind, but it's your thread/question Branislav, what do you want?   

[sopa]

The key question isn't about whether to include NASCAR or not, but about where do you draw the line and how would you weigh different series. For example should DTM count to boost the data of German manufacturers, to whom that series is definitely important? There are many questions one can ask, but I guess there is no good formula as of now to weigh it all in.

[Branislav]

I wouldn't mind, but it's your thread/question Branislav, what do you want?   

On previous page I show my definite list covering all major worldwide motorsports.

 

If you want to put national championship like Nascar, Super Formula, DTM, final result would be I guess unchanged.

[Branislav]

update

 

 

ALL TIME (F1, MotoGP, WRC, Le Mans, Indy 500, WTCR, Formula E)

 

1. Honda 70 titles and 426 wins (F1, MotoGP, Indy 500, WTCR)

2. Ford 43 titles and 267 wins (F1, WRC, Le Mans, Indy 500)

3. Ferrari 40 titles and 239 wins (F1, Le Mans)

 

4. Renault 29 titles and 192 wins (F1, WRC, Le Mans, Formula E)

5. Offenhauser 27 titles (Indy 500)

6. Mercedes 24 titles and 188 wins (F1, Le Mans, Indy 500)

 

7. Porsche 24 titles and 26 wins (F1, Le Mans)

 

*I count 24h Le Mans and Indy 500 wins like titles

 

 

Still remaining 3 races of WTCR to close this year.

Edited by Branislav, 02 December 2019 - 09:06.

[Branislav]

Update!

 

 

 

ALL TIME ENGINE (F1, MotoGP, WRC, Le Mans, Indy 500, WTCR, Formula E)

 

1. Honda 71 titles and 433 wins (F1, MotoGP, Indy 500, WTCR)

2. Ford 43 titles and 267 wins (F1, WRC, Le Mans, Indy 500)

3.  Ferrari 40 titles and 239 wins (F1, Le Mans)

 

4.   Renault 29 titles and 192 wins (F1, WRC, Le Mans, Formula E)

5. Citroen (DS) 27 titles and 170 wins (WRC, WTCR, Formula E)

6. Offenhauser 27 titles (Indy 500)

 

7. Mercedes 26 titles and 203 wins (F1, Le Mans, Indy 500, Formula E)

8.   Porsche 24 titles and 26 wins (F1, Le Mans)

9. Chevrolet 18 titles and 88 wins (Indy 500, WTCR)

 

 

 

Looks like Honda is untouchable

[Nathan]

Indy 500 wins like titles

 

 

I don't understand why Indy is included, or at least held to such a standard.  It's narrow in specialization, only 500miles, is really a domestic race and seems arbitrary.

[Branislav]

I don't understand why Indy is included, or at least held to such a standard.  It's narrow in specialization, only 500miles, is really a domestic race and seems arbitrary.

Domestic? But many foreign manufacturers were tried it. And Honda from Japan is still there.

 

It's probably the biggest race on Earth.

[juicy sushi]

I don't understand why Indy is included, or at least held to such a standard.  It's narrow in specialization, only 500miles, is really a domestic race and seems arbitrary.

Much like Le Mans...

 

But why include F1?  It's a very specialized field with very short races and traditionally very limited participation from manufacturers.

 

If motorsports is being considered in its totality, I think Chevy and Porsche likely have more success, due to their ubiquity in short track/dirt track racing and sports cars (at all levels) respectively.  Ford and Volkswagen both likely also strong contenders between Formula Ford and Super Vee (or similar) respectively.

 

If we're only measuring the top 2-3% of participation in the sport, the numbers are skewed considerably.

[r4mses]

outside of the US, at least in Europe, it's certainly Le Mans > Indy. Might even say the Monaco GP is about the same level als Indy.

[Branislav]

outside of the US, at least in Europe, it's certainly Le Mans > Indy. Might even say the Monaco GP is about the same level als Indy.

In US the Indy 500 is bigger than championship. In F1 Monaco is just another race and pretty boring one.

[ARTGP]

In US the Indy 500 is bigger than championship. In F1 Monaco is just another race and pretty boring one.

 

Yet they are viewed as equals in the "triple crown".

[Branislav]

Yet they are viewed as equals in the "triple crown".

Yea. But this "triple crown" isn't official award, is it? Did you see the driver's trophy for it?

[PayasYouRace]

I don't understand why Indy is included, or at least held to such a standard. It's narrow in specialization, only 500miles, is really a domestic race and seems arbitrary.

It’s one of the biggest and most historic motor races in the world.

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

Mercedes

Because they dominated pre WW2 Grand Prix Racing
They dominated mid 50s Grand Prix Racing
They dominated todays Grand Prix Racing

They won Le Mans

And they won the 500

[drionita]

Mercedes

Because they dominated pre WW2 Grand Prix Racing
They dominated mid 50s Grand Prix Racing
They dominated todays Grand Prix Racing

They won Le Mans

And they won the 500

Moreover MB has victories at Montecarlo rally, some WRC wins, 1983 Paris-Dakar, at 24H Spa and one Great race in Australia (even if not at Bathurst)

Edited by drionita, 21 December 2020 - 16:44.

[juicy sushi]

Moreover MB has victories at Montecarlo rally, some WRC wins, 1983 Paris-Dakar, at 24H Spa and one Great race in Australia (even if not at Bathurst)

Which is still a lot less than other brands mentioned.

[Collombin]

Yet they are viewed as equals in the "triple crown".

Said I would never bite again, but can't help it. Monaco was never considered a triple crown leg until relatively recently, probably by people misled by Graham's many successes there. It was WDC/Indy/Le Mans.