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Poll: What should be a penalty for unsafe release (152 member(s) have cast votes)

How should driver be penalized

  1. He shouldn't, it's teams fault. Let them pay fine. (21 votes [13.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.82%

  2. Time penalty is enough. (31 votes [20.39%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.39%

  3. Unsafe release is dangerous, it requires drive through or stop and go. (94 votes [61.84%])

    Percentage of vote: 61.84%

  4. Pit is a sacred place, breaking rules there should lead to black flag or race ban (6 votes [3.95%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.95%

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#151 Clatter

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Posted 31 July 2019 - 14:07

I wonder if they can change the pit layout at some of the tracks to reduce the risks to mechanics but allow proper pit stop 'racing' for want of a better word. At the moment there is an inherent 'unfairness' to pit stops where a driver can lose a place solely due to another car driving down the pits at the wrong moment. Someone else pointed out that those at the extreme ends of the pits are far less likely to suffer than those in the middle, so rather than finding ways to remove the fun and competition of the pit stops, how can the pits layouts be changed to allow teams to release cars even if another one is coming without ruining safety? Could 'barriers' be put up around each pit box to protect the crew inside the box? Would that even work?

The only other solution I can see is to go the extreme opposite and remove any competitive element from pit stops by enforcing a minimum time stationary but that doesn't necessarily resolve the unsafe release if another car is coming still.

The FIA really do massively need to sort this out someway or another. I don't agree with the attitude that it's the team's fault if there is an unsafe release so the driver shouldn't penalised. The driver directly benefits from the decision of the release in front of another car and if you asked them off record what action they'd want the time to take, they'd all say to release them and take the risk. The FIA need to make this an absolute safety matter and they should strongly consider black flags for obvious and extremely dangerous releases. I also don't agree with the poster who said that releasing a car with only 3 wheels or a nut not done up right shouldn't be further penalised, yes it should! The car was released like that because the team were too eager to release the car and took the risk. If they'd taken a few more precious seconds they could have fixed it before the release therefore they only have themselves to blame.

If safety was a prime objective then they would follow indycars lead and limit the number of personnel in the pits. No one can come out until the car has stopped, and car cannot leave until all personnel back in the garage/behind a line. That doesn't prevent the chances of an unsafe release, but it does slow things down and put a lot less people in harms way. It won't happen because F1 rarely copy anthing that indy do, and they get very excited about the speed of the stops.

I don't see a need to change the garages, rather than the mindset of the teams. As far as unfairness goes, motorsport is full of it, that's just part of the game, and something you just have to get on with.

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#152 f1rules

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Posted 31 July 2019 - 14:47

Exactly, completely stupid decision that now sets precedent, i quess the pity for ferrari and the wish to spice things up was responsible for that completely wrong decission



A dumb mistake from the stewards because this is obviously setting a new precedent. I can only hope that the other teams made it clear to the stewards that this is inconsistent.


Edited by f1rules, 31 July 2019 - 14:47.


#153 f1rules

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Posted 31 July 2019 - 14:54

Exactly👍 Thats basicly what theyre saying,
drive trough should be the standard

"FIA: Ferrari unsafe German GP release fine doesn't set F1 precedent"


Also known as "we messed up and do not want to be tied to it in the future".


Edited by f1rules, 31 July 2019 - 14:55.


#154 sgtkate

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Posted 31 July 2019 - 14:58

If safety was a prime objective then they would follow indycars lead and limit the number of personnel in the pits. No one can come out until the car has stopped, and car cannot leave until all personnel back in the garage/behind a line. That doesn't prevent the chances of an unsafe release, but it does slow things down and put a lot less people in harms way. It won't happen because F1 rarely copy anthing that indy do, and they get very excited about the speed of the stops.

I don't see a need to change the garages, rather than the mindset of the teams. As far as unfairness goes, motorsport is full of it, that's just part of the game, and something you just have to get on with.

It really does annoy me that F1 brings in numerous things to protect the drivers and spectators but next to nothing to protect the pit crew or the marshalls. I agree with your post entirely, I was merely musing on what could be done.


Edited by sgtkate, 31 July 2019 - 14:59.


#155 Atreiu

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Posted 31 July 2019 - 14:59

So they reckoned Leclerc was compromised by the next pit crew getting in the way.

 

Maybe there shouldn't be a merge area in these pits then.

 

If only someone somehow had the authority to limit the team personal in the pitlane during races, maybe estabilish some sort of limit to how many mechanics are allowed to work on each car during a pit stop. Do it in the name of safety. I know it's a radical idea...



#156 BuddyHolly

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Posted 31 July 2019 - 15:09

I do like Leclerc but I have to say this was a bad decision and sets a very dangerous precedent.



#157 Hati

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Posted 31 July 2019 - 19:30

Very unlikely that they will do anything for unsafe releases since there was one from Red Bull between Monaco and Germany and no one even noticed since no one was hit.



#158 JavierDeVivre

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Posted 31 July 2019 - 20:36

What is all this rubbish about setting a precedent?

Pit lane infractions have resulted in fines for some time now.

Red Bull and Verstappen were handed a (lenient) time penalty because they willingly released a car that untentionally crashed a competitor into the wall.

Red Bull's actions were deliberate to get Verstappen in front of Bottas, and Verstappen's action were deliberate to try and achieve this.

Verstappen gained by driving dangerously in the pit lane.

#159 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 31 July 2019 - 23:00

What is all this rubbish about setting a precedent?

Pit lane infractions have resulted in fines for some time now.

Red Bull and Verstappen were handed a (lenient) time penalty because they willingly released a car that untentionally crashed a competitor into the wall.

Red Bull's actions were deliberate to get Verstappen in front of Bottas, and Verstappen's action were deliberate to try and achieve this.

Verstappen gained by driving dangerously in the pit lane.

do you know another race with an unsafe release and a fine?



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#160 enjoyingRBR

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 03:11

off course the driver shouldn't be penalized. it's not his fault. the team should be fined by losing points in the WCC. financial fines are unfair, because money isn't a problem in some teams.


TEAM PERCENTAGE PENALTIES! (TPP)
Im totally in favour of wcc point penalties. But then again, stealing 1 wcc point from Merc is very different than stealing 1 from lets say Haas. You can work with % at end of season taken from the total.

For example.

End season total:

Haas 76 points- 2.8% TPP = 74
Ferrari 400 points -3% TPP = 388
Torro rosso 75 points - 0% TPP= 75
RBR 397 points -1.4% TPP= 391


WDC points are not taken of.
So the driver fans who cant care less about WCC dont have to follow these scores.
WCC is mainly important for the teams prizemoney.
I think this way teams really have to watch out with what they do because end of season it can really hurt them.

Ps. I believe with this system there might be something to do about gridpenalties as well

Edited by enjoyingRBR, 01 August 2019 - 03:18.


#161 Tony Mandara

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 03:53

I'm seeing a lot of posts about giving Verstappen 'his points back' for Monaco. Enough already!

 

He pushed another car in the wall because he refused to back off when he should have done. 

 

He deserved (at least) a ten second stop-go AND the team should have been fined for the unsafe release.

 

 

 

'Posted without rose-coloured glasses'



#162 Jazza

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 06:24

TEAM PERCENTAGE PENALTIES! (TPP)
Im totally in favour of wcc point penalties. But then again, stealing 1 wcc point from Merc is very different than stealing 1 from lets say Haas. You can work with % at end of season taken from the total.

For example.

End season total:

Haas 76 points- 2.8% TPP = 74
Ferrari 400 points -3% TPP = 388
Torro rosso 75 points - 0% TPP= 75
RBR 397 points -1.4% TPP= 391


WDC points are not taken of.
So the driver fans who cant care less about WCC dont have to follow these scores.
WCC is mainly important for the teams prizemoney.
I think this way teams really have to watch out with what they do because end of season it can really hurt them.

Ps. I believe with this system there might be something to do about gridpenalties as well


As has been mentioned before, what happens when it is the driver’s fault?

Many unsafe releases are a result of the driver not getting away fast enough. The team tells the driver to go because there is plenty of room to pull into the lane, but because the driver has trouble pulling away, then by time he gets into the lane the other car is right on him. Such a situation is nothing to do with a team making a mistake or being careless with safety, and yet an unsafe release has still happened.

Only penalizing the team also has the issue of going for the WDC above all else. Just like fines mean nothing, teams have also put the WDC above the WCC on plenty of occasions (Ferrari in the past being the most clear cut example. They cared nothing for the WCC in 99, nor did they care much for it in 08 either). A driver himself going for the title may be willing to barge into the lane against team instructions knowing that only the team will pay the price.

Team and driver are the one car entrant. The only question is “Is car number X outside of the rules, yes or no?” The question of if it was the team or driver of car number X at fault shouldn’t come up.

#163 enjoyingRBR

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 06:44

Drivers fault = driver penaltie ofcourse

We already have stewards for the nuance.
Perfect rules are impossible. This just gets closer to it

Edited by enjoyingRBR, 01 August 2019 - 06:48.


#164 Kalmake

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 06:48

do you know another race with an unsafe release and a fine?

Bahrain 2018 Ferrari got fined for running over their own guy. But it might have been a sporting penalty if they hadn't panicked and retired the car (which had no damage).



#165 enjoyingRBR

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 06:53

As has been mentioned before, what happens when it is the driver’s fault?

Many unsafe releases are a result of the driver not getting away fast enough. The team tells the driver to go because there is plenty of room to pull into the lane, but because the driver has trouble pulling away, then by time he gets into the lane the other car is right on him. Such a situation is nothing to do with a team making a mistake or being careless with safety, and yet an unsafe release has still happened.

Only penalizing the team also has the issue of going for the WDC above all else. Just like fines mean nothing, teams have also put the WDC above the WCC on plenty of occasions (Ferrari in the past being the most clear cut example. They cared nothing for the WCC in 99, nor did they care much for it in 08 either). A driver himself going for the title may be willing to barge into the lane against team instructions knowing that only the team will pay the price.

Team and driver are the one car entrant. The only question is “Is car number X outside of the rules, yes or no?” The question of if it was the team or driver of car number X at fault shouldn’t come up.

The teams get a 5000! Fine now, thats Nothing!
You know how many MILLIONS they can lose when it impacts a place in WCC standings?
The fact ferrari in some year didnt care doesnt mather now does it?
Im sure teams (especially midfield now, but when its getting closer in top 3 as well) would care ALOT if they get punished in WCC standings

Edited by enjoyingRBR, 01 August 2019 - 06:53.


#166 Jazza

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 07:23

The teams get a 5000! Fine now, thats Nothing!
You know how many MILLIONS they can lose when it impacts a place in WCC standings?
The fact ferrari in some year didnt care doesnt mather now does it?
Im sure teams (especially midfield now, but when its getting closer in top 3 as well) would care ALOT if they get punished in WCC standings


Which is the point of penalties. They lose time and therefore possibly track position and therefore potentially points. The system works. The fact that a driver wrongly got a fine instead of a proper penalty last race doesn’t mean we have to change one of the basic rules or F1, which is that the team and driver are classed as one and the same. Brazil 95 and Austria 00 are already examples of stuffing up that principle.

#167 Jazza

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 07:29

Drivers fault = driver penaltie ofcourse

We already have stewards for the nuance.
Perfect rules are impossible. This just gets closer to it


Considering the whole issue of this thread is because of the inconsistency of the stewards, I don’t see how giving them more to think about is making for a better system.

Is a slipping clutch a driver or team fault? Because it could be either a mechanical problem or driver misuse. So who gets the penalty? Do we let the team go through their data and decide if it was a car or driver issue?

I don’t see how we can get a better system than “car number X caused a collision in the pits... drive through penalty for car number X”. Simple, early, and fair. No need to apportion blame to team vs driver. The system already works, just as long as the stewards actually give the appropriate penalty.

#168 enjoyingRBR

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 07:54

I see alot of people in here with another opinion than yours.
I for instance like it alot leclerc didnt get 5 seconds.

Ofcourse complexer things shouldnt be changed like you try to example. But i like the thought to let stewards decide on minor mistakes and not instantly put them on the driver.

I also like the way stewards are heading the last couple of races.. i do like the way they work and i dont agree with the complainers

Edited by enjoyingRBR, 01 August 2019 - 07:59.


#169 sgtkate

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 08:23

I see alot of people in here with another opinion than yours.
I for instance like it alot leclerc didnt get 5 seconds.

Ofcourse complexer things shouldnt be changed like you try to example. But i like the thought to let stewards decide on minor mistakes and not instantly put them on the driver.

I also like the way stewards are heading the last couple of races.. i do like the way they work and i dont agree with the complainers

 

As you say it's always good to hear different sides. For me it is a difficult one, it feel a bit unfair for the driver to be penalised when it's the teams fault, but the driver DOES benefit directly from the unsafe release by not losing places and ultimately the punishment needs to be such a strong deterent that no team would ever risk it, due to the teams often prioritising the WDC as it's more marketable there is a far bigger hit to the team by penalising the driver even if that seems a bit unfair. F1 is a team game for the most part.



#170 enjoyingRBR

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 08:43

I understand what you say. But the TPP system i suggested above is a MUCH MUCH bigger penalty than the 5000 fine..

Furthermore i firmly believe not one team on the grid wants to risk a pitlane crash on purpose

#171 sgtkate

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 08:59

I understand what you say. But the TPP system i suggested above is a MUCH MUCH bigger penalty than the 5000 fine..

Furthermore i firmly believe not one team on the grid wants to risk a pitlane crash on purpose

Oh totally agreed. The fine was a joke.



#172 redreni

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 09:45

I understand what you say. But the TPP system i suggested above is a MUCH MUCH bigger penalty than the 5000 fine..

Furthermore i firmly believe not one team on the grid wants to risk a pitlane crash on purpose

 

No, of course not, but they don't just like not crashing. They also like being in front of the others. That's why teams and drivers take risks, which is fine on the track but not so great in the pit lane.



#173 SophieB

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 11:49

Teams are puzzled by lenient unsafe release penalty (fine) against Ferrari/Leclerc at Hockenheim. AMuS (in German):

https://t.co/FKlggUDcwj



#174 Marklar

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 12:06

 

Teams are puzzled by lenient unsafe release penalty (fine) against Ferrari/Leclerc at Hockenheim. AMuS (in German):

https://t.co/FKlggUDcwj

 

lol

 

 

Premane: "If this becomes the rule, each team should place 100k € before the race at the FIA. They can then debit the money each time there is a unsafe release. "

So the unsafe release prepaid?  :p


Edited by Marklar, 01 August 2019 - 12:07.


#175 SophieB

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 12:21

lol

 

So the unsafe release prepaid?  :p

 

I was struck by that too and he's right - frankly most teams would happily fork over the cash just to able to get out ahead in the pitlane and consider it money well spent.

 

Madness!



#176 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 14:19

I was struck by that too and he's right - frankly most teams would happily fork over the cash just to able to get out ahead in the pitlane and consider it money well spent.

Madness!


It's also much cheaper than developing the car for the same amount of gained time. Indeed madness

#177 Marklar

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 18:52

:rotfl: 

 

 

It has emerged that the matter was discussed during Thursday afternoon's team manager's meeting with the FIA ahead of the Hungarian Grand Prix, and there was a unanimous request for time penalties to be deemed as the only acceptable punishment.

 
Following discussions, the FIA accepted the concerns of teams that fines were not enough of a deterrent and it was agreed that from now on, if there is an unsafe release, then there will be a time penalty.

https://www.motorspo...eclerc/4505397/

Better late than never I guess (although it clearly used to be a time penalty, sometimes even more until recently)

also tfw the teams are more concerned about safety than the bloody FIA  :stoned:


Edited by Marklar, 01 August 2019 - 18:54.


#178 Clatter

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 19:00

:rotfl: 

 

https://www.motorspo...eclerc/4505397/

Better late than never I guess (although it clearly used to be a time penalty, sometimes even more until recently)

also tfw the teams are more concerned about safety than the bloody FIA  :stoned:

 


Its amazing that almost everyone saw the obvious flaw, yet the stewards couldn't. I wonder if they discussed what the time penalty should be, as I really don't think 5 or 10 second penalties reflect the seriousness, or provide an adequate disincentive.

#179 Carl42

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Posted 02 August 2019 - 11:11

So now there is just a fine for an unsafe release the teams can just ignore it and just pay the fine, it could move them up a position, ok until a mechanic gets run down,

 

Its one of the most stupid decisions the stewards have ever made



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#180 Arundo

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Posted 02 August 2019 - 11:38

Good that they move back to timepenalties, sure the driver cant really help it that the team ****s up but this would set a loophole where drivers can **** over other drivers for position in the pits. Its a teamsport anyway, team ****s up drivers pays the price.



#181 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 02 August 2019 - 18:55

Binotto:

"What was key was to be safe to the mechanics in the pitlane. In the case of Charles, the Red Bull team was ready for the pitstop in front of him.
"I think the way Charles drove was very safe with respect to the mechanics and the pit crew.
"Yes, he had to slow down to be careful with the car coming in but that's a racing situation.
"I think as a team when you've got such traffic, what's key is safety first. Then we are in a racing situation.
"We've been fined, I don't think there will be a different judgement in the future. "I think the way it's been judged was the proper one."


https://www.autospor...e-fine-was-fair

And that is why we need heavier penalties

#182 Lights

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Posted 02 August 2019 - 22:17

Its amazing that almost everyone saw the obvious flaw, yet the stewards couldn't.

 

With their history, it's sadly not that amazing anymore. 

 

Whiting/the stewards also couldn't understand the basics of how a driver could run wide on tarmac run-offs - yet win time.

 

I also remember when Vettel pointed out a flaw in the VSC system in regards to winning time by driving tighter lines than usual, and the FIA waved it away until they finally agreed it was indeed possible.

 

The FIA/Masi also waved away comments about the wet drag strip in Hockenheim being unsafe, claiming it wasn't any different than other run-offs. While it just really wasn't the same, it was clear to see, whether or not you liked the effect of it.

 

It's pretty pathetic for a group that's supposed to be the voice of reason within this sport in regards to sporting regulations and safety. But it's unfortunately far from surprising anymore that they sometimes don't grasp simple concepts.


Edited by Lights, 02 August 2019 - 22:21.


#183 ANF

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Posted 02 August 2019 - 23:11

Its amazing that almost everyone saw the obvious flaw, yet the stewards couldn't. I wonder if they discussed what the time penalty should be, as I really don't think 5 or 10 second penalties reflect the seriousness, or provide an adequate disincentive.

I agree. It should be a drive-through penalty. Unsafe release, speeding in the pit lane, jump start: drive-through penalty!

I was a fan of the 5 and 10 second time penalties when they were introduced, but now they are being used for just about anything and we get too many races where track position is irrelevant because drivers A, B and C will have x and y seconds added at the chequered flag.

#184 Marklar

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Posted 03 August 2019 - 11:18

No idea where to put it, so I go for this thread: The FIA showed the team bosses and drivers yesterday 12 race situations of the last three years and let them vote anonymously how they would have decided if they were  the stewards. In Spa they will do the same with the sport directors. The FIA want to use this in order to get a better feel for it and that also gives the FIA a opportunity to hold whatever they voted in this survey against them, should they try to argue in the future otherwise when it's to their disadvantage.

Horner said he voted in 90 % of the cases for no further action, one of the scenes was the Montreal incident between Hamilton and Vettel.

Some other takeaways: Unsafe release will be in the future in any case a time penalty. And Masi conceded that cases like Hamilton cutting the pit lane entry because of a car damage is something that is more reasonable than driving with a damaged car around the track and thus shouldnt be penalized in the future.

https://www.auto-mot...-rennkommissar/


Edited by Marklar, 03 August 2019 - 11:19.


#185 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 03 August 2019 - 13:59

No idea where to put it, so I go for this thread: The FIA showed the team bosses and drivers yesterday 12 race situations of the last three years and let them vote anonymously how they would have decided if they were  the stewards. In Spa they will do the same with the sport directors. The FIA want to use this in order to get a better feel for it and that also gives the FIA a opportunity to hold whatever they voted in this survey against them, should they try to argue in the future otherwise when it's to their disadvantage.

Horner said he voted in 90 % of the cases for no further action, one of the scenes was the Montreal incident between Hamilton and Vettel.

Some other takeaways: Unsafe release will be in the future in any case a time penalty. And Masi conceded that cases like Hamilton cutting the pit lane entry because of a car damage is something that is more reasonable than driving with a damaged car around the track and thus shouldnt be penalized in the future.

https://www.auto-mot...-rennkommissar/

 

Hamilton pit lane problem still is that by crashing in a lucky place and driving illegally he would have an advantage to someone crashing elsewhere and driving legally. So although it was reasonable why should this be the faster way?



#186 Bleu

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 12:09

I wonder if they can change the pit layout at some of the tracks to reduce the risks to mechanics but allow proper pit stop 'racing' for want of a better word. At the moment there is an inherent 'unfairness' to pit stops where a driver can lose a place solely due to another car driving down the pits at the wrong moment. Someone else pointed out that those at the extreme ends of the pits are far less likely to suffer than those in the middle, so rather than finding ways to remove the fun and competition of the pit stops, how can the pits layouts be changed to allow teams to release cars even if another one is coming without ruining safety? Could 'barriers' be put up around each pit box to protect the crew inside the box? Would that even work?

 

The only other solution I can see is to go the extreme opposite and remove any competitive element from pit stops by enforcing a minimum time stationary but that doesn't necessarily resolve the unsafe release if another car is coming still.

 

The FIA really do massively need to sort this out someway or another. I don't agree with the attitude that it's the team's fault if there is an unsafe release so the driver shouldn't penalised. The driver directly benefits from the decision of the release in front of another car and if you asked them off record what action they'd want the time to take, they'd all say to release them and take the risk. The FIA need to make this an absolute safety matter and they should strongly consider black flags for obvious and extremely dangerous releases. I also don't agree with the poster who said that releasing a car with only 3 wheels or a nut not done up right shouldn't be further penalised, yes it should! The car was released like that because the team were too eager to release the car and took the risk. If they'd taken a few more precious seconds they could have fixed it before the release therefore they only have themselves to blame.

 

Is there a major difference between first and last garages? AFAIK, the reigning constructors' champion decides whether they take first or last garage and then all other teams are put in places in order. But if it's best to have either first or last then the teams could line up like this:

 

Mercedes (1)

Red Bull (3)

Haas (5)

Racing Point (7)

Toro Rosso (9)

Williams (10)

Alfa Romeo (8)

McLaren (6)

Renault (4)

Ferrari (2)

 

Last year's WCC position in brackets.



#187 Kalmake

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 15:11

First and last can be worst places if they are too close to speed limit line.