76 replies to this topic

[rodnet1]

At the moment my feeling is that Verstappen is in a class of his own. Simply a unique talent and the only one of the new generation who I would expect to reach Schumacher or Senna (or Hamilton) levels of dominating the sport. The jury is still out on Leclerc, his performancelevel is high but he still is inconsistent and prone to mistakes. Of the ones not yet settled in topteams I really like Russell but as with Norris (whom I rate somewhat lower) we have to wait and see how they would handle the pressure at the top. Ocon was hardly better than Perez and since Ricciardo was and is much higher rated than Perez and Verstappen handily had the upper hand over Ricciardo I do not believe Ocon to be topmaterial. Decent driver worthy of a place in F1 but not more. Same for Sainz jr. And Albon does a decent enough job but never showed talent on the level of Verstappen or Leclerc so is also not a future champion in my opinion. In F2 I hardly see anyone worthy of a place in F1 at the moment but who knows? Maybe someone will surprise me.

Edited by rodnet1, 01 August 2019 - 22:28.

[P123]

Albon is massively underrated, hes almost paralleled what Russell did with his results. I hope he makes the step up to the main RB team next year.

As with GR to Mercedes in a few seasons.

But as challengers to King Max, I think it will be Leclerc and Norris if the machinery is able to. Both seem to have that bit more fighting spirit than gents Russell and Albon.

Really? Certainly not the impression I got from the respective F2 seasons of Russell and Norris. Russell had a good amount of aggression and showed ability to fight his way through from the back of the field, and after a few tricky early rounds with some setbacks came out fighting. Norris was somewhat a disappointment in comparison- he was like a Coulthard when behind other cars, wheras Russell was a Montoya...

Edited by P123, 01 August 2019 - 22:30.

[NewMrMe]

I have been thinking about how a discussion such as this would have looked in years past and how crazy and ridiculous the actual future would have seemed in some cases. For example, who in 1983 or 1984 would have predicted that Nigel Mansell would in the next 10 years win a world title and narrowly miss out on another 3. Who in 1990 would have predicted championships for Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve and that Jean Alesi would only win 1 of his 200+ GPs.

 

Interesting wild card question seeing as we are considering drivers that are already competing at a high level, what if Colton Herta switches to F1? I think he could be a major player if he did.

Edited by NewMrMe, 01 August 2019 - 22:42.

[Hela]

I think Williams have him for two years, but after that, yep, he will be a Merc driver. But if they want to get their hands firmly on a driver of the future and they can't get Max, then maybe they will promote Russell next year. He is a bit wasted running adrift at the back. Only so much you can learn there.

 

I hope Williams get their act together next year, that way Russell can showcase some of that talent from GP2 last year. The campaign he put together was extremely good and can be compared to what Leclerc did the year prior. Pity about the Williams car that has masked his talent.

[PlayboyRacer]

Leclerc

Alot will depend on machinery, as always, however Charles is only in his second season. For anyone making comparisons, Verstappen is in his 5th. Experience makes a significant difference, age isn't the factor.

Norris and Russell of course could be major players too.

My reasoning for this? Charles is already pretty strong between the ears and, against Verstappen, that will be crucial in any championship fights moving forward.

That will be the ultimate test of both their abilities, talent and strength of mind. Both are seriously fast, no question marks there.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 01 August 2019 - 23:15.

[MikeTekRacing]

At the moment my feeling is that Verstappen is in a class of his own. Simply a unique talent and the only one of the new generation who I would expect to reach Schumacher or Senna (or Hamilton) levels of dominating the sport. The jury is still out on Leclerc, his performancelevel is high but he still is inconsistent and prone to mistakes. Of the ones not yet settled in topteams I really like Russell but as with Norris (whom I rate somewhat lower) we have to wait and see how they would handle the pressure at the top. Ocon was hardly better than Perez and since Ricciardo was and is much higher rated than Perez and Verstappen handily had the upper hand over Ricciardo I do not believe Ocon to be topmaterial. Decent driver worthy of a place in F1 but not more. Same for Sainz jr. And Albon does a decent enough job but never showed talent on the level of Verstappen or Leclerc so is also not a future champion in my opinion. In F2 I hardly see anyone worthy of a place in F1 at the moment but who knows? Maybe someone will surprise me.

so you say LeClerc is prone to mistakes but Verstappen is now in a class of his own? Mind you, Verstappen has made quite a collection of mistakes in the 4 seasons he's had. LeClerc only had once season prior to being paired with Vettel...

 

don't get me wrong, I also think Verstappen is currently becoming a mega star - and he is showing improvement and learning- but I don't think it's fair to say LeClerc is mistake prone compared to him. They are in very different stages of learning. Now if LeClerc will learn or not is a different discussion. 

Edited by MikeTekRacing, 01 August 2019 - 23:21.

[Joefane]

Norris 31 wins and Sainz (who is, as of today, faster) 0 wins? A bit funny reading this. He is 3 or 4 years older than most of this list but still should be considered next gen I think.

The number of total wins of each driver will obviosuly depend so much on which seat they land, and if F1 will keep on having such highly dominant teams or not. Its very hard for anyone to have 60 or 70 wins, because they need to have the best car for several years. No matter how good they are, thats out of their control.
Its no coincidence that the two drivers with most wins (Schumacher and Hamilton) have had probably the two best car collections of all. Many dominant and great ones.

To be fair I completely forgot that Sainz is still a pretty young driver, and that he debuted alongside Verstappen. He seems like he’s been around forever and I do expect him to pick up wins and possibly a title depending on circumstances.

[baddog]

Could be Max or Charles or someone no-one is thinking of that way, or someone most of us have never heard of. Too many variables.

[Dratini]

so you say LeClerc is prone to mistakes but Verstappen is now in a class of his own? Mind you, Verstappen has made quite a collection of mistakes in the 4 seasons he's had. LeClerc only had once season prior to being paired with Vettel...

 

don't get me wrong, I also think Verstappen is currently becoming a mega star - and he is showing improvement and learning- but I don't think it's fair to say LeClerc is mistake prone compared to him. They are in very different stages of learning. Now if LeClerc will learn or not is a different discussion. 

Yep, it was only last year we were all talking about how Max was mistake prone and debating whether he was capable of tidying himself up while maintaining his speed. He proved that he could, and the same test will apply for Leclerc.

[rodnet1]

so you say LeClerc is prone to mistakes but Verstappen is now in a class of his own? Mind you, Verstappen has made quite a collection of mistakes in the 4 seasons he's had. LeClerc only had once season prior to being paired with Vettel...

don't get me wrong, I also think Verstappen is currently becoming a mega star - and he is showing improvement and learning- but I don't think it's fair to say LeClerc is mistake prone compared to him. They are in very different stages of learning. Now if LeClerc will learn or not is a different discussion.

Actually I agree with you. Verstappen had a disastrous start to last year (and one or two mistakes before that) but obviously overcame this and despite that always was and certainly now is considered as THE rising star. This while the judge is still out on Leclerc. They are in different stages of learning indeed but remember they are of the same age.

[JeePee]

I think Leclerc IS more mistake-prone than Verstappen. Verstappen used to be clumsy or overly aggressive in overtake/defends and thus crash with others, but he hardly made mistakes on his own like Leclerc seems to do this season.

 

Alot will depend on machinery, as always, however Charles is only in his second season. For anyone making comparisons, Verstappen is in his 5th. Experience makes a significant difference, age isn't the factor.

On the other hand: Both Verstappen and Leclerc are in their 6th single seater season.

[PlayboyRacer]

On the other hand: Both Verstappen and Leclerc are in their 6th single seater season.

How is that relevant? Their path to the top flight is done, nothing replaces pure Formula 1 experience and there Verstappen currently is well ahead.

Great for Max of course, take nothing away from him. But if Leclerc and Ferrari really get things together in the next 12 months and Charles' natural evolution is sharp, boy is Max gonna have his hands full.

Charles hasn't even completed 2 full seasons yet, nor a full season at Ferrari. Let that sink in.

[Cliff]

How is that relevant? Their path to the top flight is done, nothing replaces pure Formula 1 experience and there Verstappen currently is well ahead.

Great for Max of course, take nothing away from him. But if Leclerc and Ferrari really get things together in the next 12 months and Charles' natural evolution is sharp, boy is Max gonna have his hands full.

Charles hasn't even completed 2 full seasons yet, nor a full season at Ferrari. Let that sink in.

It’s completely relevant, they both have just as many years in cars. Max had to make all his mistakes in F1 and had to learn the hard way, while LeClerc had the luxury to make them in lower categories. And this year he’s still making loads. Sometimes it seems he is overdriving to prove he is just as good.

I’ll believe it when I see it, but if karting is anything to go by he’s going to always be shaded by Max unless he gets a truly dominant car.

Edited by Cliff, 02 August 2019 - 06:55.

[Laptom]

so you say LeClerc is prone to mistakes but Verstappen is now in a class of his own? Mind you, Verstappen has made quite a collection of mistakes in the 4 seasons he's had. LeClerc only had once season prior to being paired with Vettel...

 

 

The first three seasons of Verstappen were quite good. Some mistakes, but not a lot of big ones (except for Monaco each year). 

The first six races of last year things were not falling into his favor with only China as his own mistake and offcourse Monaco practise (again)..

 

To say Verstappen is error prone is looking into dark side. He is the only driver on the grid finishing in the top 5 for the last 25 races solidly. People tend to put all the clashes on his hands.

[Requiem84]

The first three seasons of Verstappen were quite good. Some mistakes, but not a lot of big ones (except for Monaco each year). 

The first six races of last year things were not falling into his favor with only China as his own mistake and offcourse Monaco practise (again)..

 

To say Verstappen is error prone is looking into dark side. He is the only driver on the grid finishing in the top 5 for the last 25 races solidly. People tend to put all the clashes on his hands.

 

But I also remember moments like T1 Barcelona 2017. 

 

Sure, it was problaby Bottas fault there, but Max made a conscious decision to make it 3 wide into T1.

 

If you look at Verstappen in 2019, he's not taking every opportunity he sees, but rather he is considering whether he should take a risk - which he very often still does, but also he often backs out, or doesn't even make a move. He's more balanced in the risk - reward department. 

[Dratini]

They are in different stages of learning indeed but remember they are of the same age.

Why is that worth remembering? If a 25 year old driver makes his debut are we to expect that he will just as mature, just as experienced and just as capable of strong performances as another 25 year old who has already completed, say, 80 grands prix?

For me, age isn't the pertinent factor. It's experience. Formula One experience.

[PlayboyRacer]

It’s completely relevant, they both have just as many years in cars. Max had to make all his mistakes in F1 and had to learn the hard way, while LeClerc had the luxury to make them in lower categories. And this year he’s still making loads. Sometimes it seems he is overdriving to prove he is just as good.

I’ll believe it when I see it, but if karting is anything to go by he’s going to always be shaded by Max unless he gets a truly dominant car.

It's not relevant. In Formula 1 terms, in particular being with a leading team, Verstappen is way ahead of Leclerc in terms of experience. Which means, yes, the upside for Charles is significant.

As for 'making loads of mistakes' (precisely two), well he's pushing the limits just like Max did in the previous couple of years. That's what champions do. You would have thought Gilles Villeneuve was absolutely useless in the beginning.

As for their future quality, we'll see. The significance of their karting days means precisely nothing now.

[Marklar]

I dont get the argument about feeder series experience. Sure, that's also a bit relevant, especially in your first year(s), but F1 experience is definitely more important. If Max had driven 5 years in feeder series and entered F1 recently he wouldnt be as good as he is now, since he wouldnt have went through the lows from which you learn from.

Also IIRC Max drove more in karts than the others, so you can then argue with that. After a few years in F1 any previous experience becomes more or less irrelevant based on previous examples.

Edited by Marklar, 02 August 2019 - 08:30.

[PlatenGlass]

Verstappen has to be the favourite to be the most successful. I'd say he's already in the top two on the grid (with Hamilton) and the top three of drivers starting this century (with Hamilton and Alonso), although as has been said, we've seen what happened to Alonso. Success and championships are never guaranteed and we don't know how good another driver will become - Alonso presumably didn't expect Hamilton to come along in 2007 and be on his level.

[jonpollak]

Whoever gets the best car for the most seasons. Nothing else matters.

Unless Scott Dixon.
Jp

[noikeee]

I have been thinking about how a discussion such as this would have looked in years past and how crazy and ridiculous the actual future would have seemed in some cases. For example, who in 1983 or 1984 would have predicted that Nigel Mansell would in the next 10 years win a world title and narrowly miss out on another 3. Who in 1990 would have predicted championships for Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve and that Jean Alesi would only win 1 of his 200+ GPs.

Yeah that is the problem with this. I think we can have a pretty good idea that a driver is somewhat good or not, but long term the outcome can be surprisingly unpredictable.

Another example is the Button/Alonso/Raikkonen/Montoya influx of 2000-2001, at the time everyone thought the elite driver of the bunch would be Montoya, he was the only one not to score a title... And by the end of 2001 Button was thought rubbish whilst Alonso, the actual most successful of them all, was looking promising but largely going under the radar due to being in the worst car, almost exactly like George Russell now.

Then by the end of 06 we thought Alonso/Raikkonen would dominate the sport for a decade and that didn't happen at all neither. And nobody saw it coming that Alonso would turn out to be pretty much a whole level above Kimi like it showed when they were teammates.

Edited by noikeee, 02 August 2019 - 11:17.

[rodnet1]

Why is that worth remembering? If a 25 year old driver makes his debut are we to expect that he will just as mature, just as experienced and just as capable of strong performances as another 25 year old who has already completed, say, 80 grands prix?

For me, age isn't the pertinent factor. It's experience. Formula One experience.

 

No, it is not the age as such but the fact that Verstappen got the earlier chance in Formula 1 which probably gives an indication of his perceived talent in comparison with others of the same age.

[Marklar]

No, it is not the age as such but the fact that Verstappen got the earlier chance in Formula 1 which probably gives an indication of his perceived talent in comparison with others of the same age.

Vettel was three years younger than Hamilton when he got into F1, but Hamilton was always perceived to be more talented.

Of course partly it has to do with perceived talent, but also partly with opportunities. There was a bidding war for Verstappen back then, and while Mercedes and Ferrari could only offer him a GP2 season, Red Bull went all the way out to overbid them with a F1 cockpit.

[Tsarwash]

People really think Ocon is going to score wins while I am here thinking he won't be back in Formula 1 ever again? There is no space for him and he wasn't setting the world on fire at Force India, he matched Perez and that is being kind on Ocon, Perez has around 30 more points and one podium over the two years they were together. I do not understand the hype he is just in the Mercedes junior driver program like Russell and like Wehrlein was. Wehrlein showed as much promise, he is back in DTM.

I don't think it's kind to Ocon to say that he matched Perez. He had more bad luck than Sergio did last year. I can't remember how the quali ratings were between then. 

[Sterzo]

Another example is the Button/Alonso/Raikkonen/Montoya influx of 2000-2001, at the time everyone thought the elite driver of the bunch would be Montoya...

Psst... I didn't. He'd looked erratic in the lower formulae and I was surprised by how well he did in F1, Indycar success notwithstanding.

 

I take your point about it all being unpredictable though. That's what makes it fun, of course.

[SavageHorizon]

Russell I rate slightly higher than Norris based on F2 last season but honestly I think both are closely matched and I can easily see both being extremely successful with the right team.
 
Verstappen is obvious, if he's not a multiple world champion I will be amazed tbh.
 
Leclerc is maybe not quite as good as Max but should still win championships in the right car(s)
 
Albon and Ocon I can't see being more than number 2 drivers tbh, solid performers on their day and can probably get you a few wins a season as a solid number 2 in a top team.
 
Sainz as people are mentioning him I think is another one who could be a champion at some point for sure.
 
I think Hamilton wins this year and probably next year then retires
 
Vettel I can't see ever winning another title, he had his chances last year and 2017 but blew it (partly on him, partly on Ferrari)
 
Ricciardo I think has only 2 real chances of doing it, either Renault nail the 2021 regs or he moves to a team like Ferrari or Mercedes, though if it's the former I can't see him beating Leclerc, if he went to Mercedes for 2021 and was alongside Ocon though I can see him winning out over Esteban.
 
none of the other midfield drivers strike me as potential champions, guys like K-Mag, Perez or Kvyat could probably win races for a top team though, not sure if any of them will ever be in one though.

Why would he leave when he would only need one more title to beat Michael's record. That's assuming he wins next year.

Believe Lewis will want to drive the new Mercedes, why wouldn't he?

Judging by Kimi he could still be here for a while.

Sometime I think people want him to retire for sinister reason lol.

[hansmann]

As of now, out of that group I think only Verstappen can be judged to a degree .

Everyone else might be gone tomorrow or be stuck in a midfield team forever .

 

Max though looks to be set to be a future champ, with his great skills and how he is maturing rapidely .

Many drivers have been touted as the next big thing over the years, Max being one of them, but Verstappen seems to the one who most likely will succeed Seb and Lewis as a future F1 top tier driver - if he isn't already .

 

That said, I can't recall a season with more promising new talent on the grid .

Albon and Norris are impressive ; Russell is hard to judge given he's driving a Williams and his team mate can't serve as a benchmark .

Leclerc is in a very tough spot, lots of pressure early in his carreer , where his mistakes can easily outweigh his occassional brilliance , not to mention some bad luck .